Eps 673: Stuart Slavin on Teen Pressure

“It does take courage to resist some of these social pressures on parents, and to say, no, I’m not going to abandon a desire for achievement or success. But let’s shade things so that we can do more to support our kids’ wellbeing and not just their pursuit of success. The joyful piece is that if you take that step, there will be more joy in your life, and in your kids’ lives as well.”
– Dr. Stuart Slavin

Resources

• The Success Trap: How the Pressure to Stand Out is Fueling Anxiety, Depression, and Burnout in Teens and the Fundamental Fix They Deserve by Dr. Stuart Slavin
• drstuartslavin.com (contact form for listeners who want to reach him)
• The Gift of Failure by Jessica Lahey — past Joyful Courage guest
• The Self-Driven Child by Ned Johnson and William Stixrud — Ned has been on the show
• Where You Go Is Not Who You’ll Be by Frank Bruni
• Malcolm Gladwell on the big-fish-little-pond effect (David and Goliath)

Transcription

[00:00:00] Casey O'Roarty: Welcome, welcome. Welcome to the Joyful Courage Podcast. This is a place where parents of tweens and teens come to find inspiration, information, and encouragement in the messy terrain of adolescence. This season of parenting is no joke, and while the details of what we're all moving through might be slightly different, we are indeed having a very collective experience.
[00:00:30] This is a space where we center building relationship, nurturing life skills, and leaning into our own personal growth, and man, the opportunities abound, right? My name is Casey O'Rourty. I am a parent coach, positive discipline lead trainer, and captain of the adolescent ship over at Sproutable. I'm also a speaker and a published author.
[00:00:53] I've been working with parents and families for over 20 years and continue to navigate my own experience of being a mom with my two young adult kids. I'm so honored that you're here and listening. Please give back to the podcast by sharing it with friends or on social media. Rate and review us on Apple or Spotify.
[00:01:13] Word of mouth is how we grow. Thank you so, so much. Enjoy the show.
[00:01:23] Dr. Stuart Slavin: All right, listeners. I am really excited
[00:01:26] Casey O'Roarty: about today's show, and I am gonna start with something that might make you a little uncomfortable, and that's okay. That's what we do here. I want you to think about the last time your teenager told you about a grade, or a game, or a test that didn't go their way, and be really honest with yourself.
[00:01:44] What happened in your body? Was there a drop of your belly, a tightening of your chest, the fast little calculation about, "God, what does this mean for next year, for their transcript, for their whole life?" And I'm not asking this to make you feel bad. I'm asking because what is happening for us is something that our kids really feel.
[00:02:07] They feel the drop. They feel the tension. Even when we say all the right things out loud, two seconds later they know that we are having an experience. And we spend a lot of time talking in this space, and I spend a lot of time on coaching calls talking about screens and phones, and that conversation absolutely matters.
[00:02:28] That's why I keep showing up, but my guest today has been looking at data that goes back decades before smartphones existed, and what he has found is that our kids are drowning in something that the adults around them have actually built. School, sports, admissions, expectations stacking up from every direction until a 15-year-old comes to believe that they are only as good as their last performance.
[00:02:53] And here's why I wanted him on the show. He doesn't just name the problem. He went into one of the highest pressure environments on the planet, took the pressure down, and the students got healthier and their performance got better. So stay with me, because I think this one is really gonna land for you, and it's worth it.
[00:03:11] My guest today is Dr. Stuart Slavin. He's a pediatrician and researcher who has spent his career studying what pressure does to young people. He practiced general pediatrics for 17 years at UCLA, and then as curriculum dean at St. Louis University School of Medicine. He led a redesign that cut rates of depression and anxiety amongst his medical students by 80% while their academic performance went up.
[00:03:40] These days, he studies the mental health of high school and college students. Yay. Thank you for your service. He speaks all over the world, and he is the author of the book The Success Trap: How the Pressure to Stand Out is Fueling Anxiety, Depression, and Burnout in Teens and the Fundamental Fix They Deserve.
[00:04:00] Dr. Slavin, welcome to the podcast.
[00:04:03] Dr. Stuart Slavin: Yeah, it was such a pleasure to be here, and I look forward to this conversation. Thank you.
[00:04:07] Casey O'Roarty: Me too. I think it's such an important one, and like I mentioned before I hit record, I am a podcaster, a parent coach, also a parent of two kids that are currently in college. So, you know, this conversation is as important and applicable for my experience of parenting as everybody that's listening.
[00:04:28] So you practiced pediatrics for 17 years before any of this became your life's work. What did you start seeing in your students and in your practice that made you say, "Hang on, this isn't about the individual kid in front of me. This is about the environment that they're standing in"?
[00:04:49] Dr. Stuart Slavin: Yeah, it's a great place to start.
[00:04:50] And, and I'm actually gonna focus on the medical students, because that's really- Okay ... even more than my patients in my general pediatric practice, that's where it really hit me. And so basically, I'm, I was a curriculum dean at St. Louis University, and I was reading about depression and anxiety in, in medical students.
[00:05:08] And, and frankly, I'd been at that university, at that medical school for several years, and I looked at our students and, and, like, I've... They don't seem depressed. They don't seem anxious. S- so we ended up doing something really important, which is we measured their depression, measured their anxiety using very well-validated surveys.
[00:05:27] And to my horror, they looked like every other medical school, with high rates of depression, high rates of anxiety, that many of them were frankly just concealing. They were hiding it. And so maybe that's one thing already to s- say, is sometimes we, we look at populations of kids and young people, and they look okay on the outside, but they may not be.
[00:05:46] So the other piece of that was we measured depression and anxiety at orientation, and it was really low. They, they looked good at orientation. So I really... The only conclusion I could make was that, that we were doing this to them. Mm-hmm. And, and that, that I was in charge of it. And I, I said, "I, I will not be in charge of, of, uh, an educational experience that is causing this much harm."
[00:06:12] And from that day forward, I said, "We're gonna do what we can to change it." And, and fortunately, one, early on in those initial surveys, um, we had a little guidance, and, and my knowledge of medical education was, uh, helpful as well. But we asked them what were the big stressors in their lives. Mm. And, and it was, um, the amount of class time, the amount of material, the level of detail of material, and competition for grades.
[00:06:39] And so that was our initial target, to say, can we ramp down the demands, ramp down the pressure, and see what happens to our students?
[00:06:47] Casey O'Roarty: Was... So that's intriguing. These are medical students.
[00:06:51] Dr. Stuart Slavin: That's the... And that's the start.
[00:06:52] Casey O'Roarty: Right? Yes. Yeah. Exactly. These are medical students. Yeah. So in my brain, I'm like, well, you're not gonna be less detailed when you're teaching them, right?
[00:06:59] Like- Well, that's what- ... you want them to have the details, but so where were the-
[00:07:03] Dr. Stuart Slavin: Exactly ...
[00:07:03] Casey O'Roarty: where were the systems? Yes.
[00:07:05] Dr. Stuart Slavin: So, yeah, I'll expand on
[00:07:06] Casey O'Roarty: this.
[00:07:06] Dr. Stuart Slavin: Yeah. It's interesting. So, so one is, and having gone through medical school, I, I was firmly, I firmly believed that, that we were teaching too much. You couldn't hold onto this information.
[00:07:16] Okay. So that, that I believed we could safely cut Curricular time and cut the amount that we taught and not harm achievement.
[00:07:26] Casey O'Roarty: Okay.
[00:07:26] Dr. Stuart Slavin: Right? So, so, so basically, uh, to get more detailed about it, we cut the amount of class time by 10%. We changed to pass/fail grading, and we introduced time for them to engage in things they cared about, elective activities like research or service or tutoring or mentoring.
[00:07:45] You know, you name it. Whatever kind of filled them up- Mm ... like, go for it. It, it's yours. Mm. And, um, those were the main changes. We, we also had a component, uh, that kind of was resilience training that hopefully we'll have time to get into as well. Yeah. Very modest curriculum there. Um, uh, and I think what was striking about the outcomes, you already said we reduced depression and anxiety in, in our first-year students- Mm-hmm
[00:08:11] by 80%. Amazing. We never, you know, never see outcomes like that. But I think the most striking thing about that th- is despite what they reported, spending an hour and a half to two hours less per day in class or studying, okay? Hour and a half to, to two hours less per day than the average medical student, their scores on the national board exam, which was the national exam that huge pressure, huge stakes that all medical students take, their scores improved and the failure rate was cut in half.
[00:08:44] So I think there's this, this, uh, you know, understandable idea that more is always better.
[00:08:50] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:08:50] Dr. Stuart Slavin: And I think that's playing out in, in K-12 education, especially, uh, high school education. If one hour of homework is, is good, imagine what they could accomplish with three to four hours. But the problem we have is at some point, too much actually not only harms mental health, it actually doesn't serve performance or achievement- Yeah
[00:09:13] either. That's, I think, the key
[00:09:15] Casey O'Roarty: point. It's so interesting to listen to you talk about this because, yeah, I... Well, first of all, you recognized we don't have a student problem, we have a system problem- Mm ... which I think is major. And then the other piece- Yes ... and I, and I, and I talk about this in my work with parents, I was just saying this to somebody this morning, like, it's so hard to bottle that idea that really we get to trust that pulling back the way you all did and not- Leaning into the more is more mentality.
[00:09:51] Like, you know, it's, it's kind of this like, "Well, no, trust me. Just trust me," you know? And it's so... You know, I do the same thing with parents. I'm, you know, I'm- Yeah ... they're saying, "This is the behavior, this is the behavior." I'm saying, "Work on relationship. Work on relationship. Trust me- Yeah ... it's going to infiltrate the behavior" Mm-hmm And you know how beautiful that you were somewhere and had, you know, a standing where the people around you said, "All right, let's see."
[00:10:17] Dr. Stuart Slavin: Yeah. "
[00:10:17] Casey O'Roarty: Let's see."
[00:10:18] Dr. Stuart Slavin: I, you know, I'll just add to that, though. It, it was a battle. Yeah. I'll tell you, the faculty is, was a conservative place. They were said, "No." Yeah. Like, they fought. But and I'll give you a little secret, which is, I also said to them, "Well, if we do these things and s- board scores drop, failure rates i- increase, we'll go back."
[00:10:36] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:10:37] Dr. Stuart Slavin: Yeah. "We'll add grades back. We'll add the material. Go ahead." And and so I was lucky because, um, that didn't occur. But what we need to remember, right? Yeah. I think this is really key. Depression and anxiety are not helpful- Right ... for academic performance. Yeah. S- profound sleep deprivation is not helpful for, for academic performance.
[00:10:58] Yeah. And I'll, I'll say, I, I'll introduce one thing to parents right now about my, my research. We'll talk about my research with high school students. 18 high schools that I looked at, the average amount of sleep that kids reported getting in every school, average p- per week night, was six and a half hours.
[00:11:18] Medical school students reported getting more. They were seven to seven and a half hours. Wow. And, and the, the adolescent brain, in case your listeners don't know, eight to 10 hours is what they need. So not only, uh, you know, is that putting them at risk for mental health problems, it's impacting their cognitive, uh, performance as well.
[00:11:36] Yeah. You know, if you're that sleep deprived, your brain is not functioning.
[00:11:41] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:11:41] Dr. Stuart Slavin: And I bet anybody, everybody knows this kind of experience, and you can talk to your kids about this, which is, you know, you can stuff a lot into your ba- brain for an exam on Friday, you know? How much of it's left- Two weeks later.
[00:11:54] Yeah. Two months later. Yeah. Six months later. So that learning can be illusory. Mm-hmm. Right? Yeah, they can learn it for Friday, but does it really stay? Mm-hmm. I don't know. Yeah. I, I think people lose a lot in
[00:12:06] Casey O'Roarty: that. Yeah, and w- that's a really big topic of conversation with families that I work with, you know, bedtime, sleep, and honestly, it does quite often go back to they won't put y- their phone away, which on one hand I'm like, "Well, you're the adult, you gotta..."
[00:12:24] And it is a deep conversation, and you also, your research says that this curve around anxiety and depression started climbing before the smartphones existed. Oh my
[00:12:36] Dr. Stuart Slavin: goodness, yeah.
[00:12:36] Casey O'Roarty: So what do we miss- Oh my goodness, yeah ... when it's just a conversation around their phone?
[00:12:41] Dr. Stuart Slavin: Yeah. I'll start my answer to that one by saying yes, we should be concerned about phones.
[00:12:46] Yeah. We should be s- concerned about social media. My concern, though, is if we focus on that as if it's the only driver of this mental health crisis that we're seeing in adolescents, I think it's dangerous. Okay. And, and I think there's profound evidence that there are other big social forces going on, and change is, one, that preceded the introduction of smartphones and, and, you know, social media.
[00:13:11] That, I mean, this is, mental health has been in decline since 1950s. I mean, we're talking about a 75-year-old process. Yeah. Right? Well before, um, these technologies were introduced. Um, the other is that I think we need to recognize, some people are saying, "Well, it's the only big change in the last 15 years that could explain the worsening of mental health."
[00:13:34] But I think there's really strong evidence, no, there are other things that are going on, and a lot of it is this kind of a p- achievement pressure, um, the demands being, uh, placed on kids, which I think used to be much more common in largely, like, the big affluent kind of suburbs, private schools- Mm-hmm
[00:13:51] elite schools. But my research indicates it's, it's spread far and wide. Um, that- Yeah ... that these conditions where, where kids are under so many pressures, such demand, is, is overwhelming. You look at the number of AP tests and, um, courses taken in this country has skyrocketed. You look at applications to college, skyrocketed.
[00:14:11] Admission rates to colleges, elite colleges, which are just like, some of them it's, like, 3 to 4%. It's like buying- Mm ... a lottery ticket. You could- Yeah ... you know?
[00:14:21] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:14:21] Dr. Stuart Slavin: So these forces are huge.
[00:14:22] Casey O'Roarty: Yes. Well, it's interesting 'cause I was raised in a pretty affluent family. Mm. Private school. Mm-hmm. College prep with a Catholic theme-
[00:14:31] Dr. Stuart Slavin: Yeah
[00:14:32] Casey O'Roarty: is what I like to say.
[00:14:33] Dr. Stuart Slavin: Yeah.
[00:14:33] Casey O'Roarty: And they were really, like- Very into achievement, and I was very mid-level. I was like, "I'll play every sport, uh-" Yeah ... 'cause it's fun." Yeah. "And I'm not the best of anything." Yeah. I, you know, there was like, "Well, you have to have a certain... You have to have a 3.0 if you wanna drive this car that we got for you," 'cause I lived a half an hour from school.
[00:14:54] So guess what I got? Mm-hmm. I got a three... I had a 3.0. You know, I did it- Yeah ... just, just enough. Mm-hmm. And then got to college and, like, out of, out of that controlled environment, and somehow weaseled my way through f- five years of curriculum in four years with a 2.1 GPA. Like- ... for whatever reason, my constitution...
[00:15:16] Well, even as I say that, I'm about to say my constitution, I did not really feel the effects. But actually, when I think about- Mm ... going home and being with my family, and my experience of not good enough actually- Wow ... completely exists. Did you feel it?
[00:15:32] Dr. Stuart Slavin: Wow.
[00:15:33] Casey O'Roarty: Um- Yeah ... and it's, and then I've got, you know, my two kids who I really- was very hands-off with.
[00:15:40] Mm-hmm. And I, and they are doing college so much different than I did college. Like- Yeah ... for me it was the side hustle to stay in Tucson, where I went, U of A, and party.
[00:15:50] Dr. Stuart Slavin: Yes.
[00:15:51] Casey O'Roarty: My kids are, like really understand the assignment of college, and I think part of that is that I've very, I've worked really hard to send this message of, like your life is yours to design and create.
[00:16:06] Yeah. I love that. And I'm gonna love you no matter- ... what direction you go in. Uh-huh. And sometimes the other stuff creeps in, for sure, 'cause it's pretty- Yeah ... deep conditioning. Is there a personality type that you find that is more prone to being like, kind of, you know, being able to kinda slough off the pressure versus the kids that really feel that intensity of- Oh, yeah
[00:16:30] more, more, more, more, more?
[00:16:32] Dr. Stuart Slavin: Yes, no question. I mean, and I think you're really touching on something, which is it, it's hard to really just talk about kids universally. You know? There's so much variation of kids. I mean, within the same family you'll see very different personalities. Mm-hmm. Same parents, but very different p- personalities, different skills, talents, et cetera.
[00:16:51] And so yeah, we, I think absolutely see profound differences in reactions to this demanding school environment that has spread like wildfire all over the country. Mm-hmm. And, and this is-
[00:17:04] Casey O'Roarty: Or the opposite.
[00:17:05] Dr. Stuart Slavin: Y- y-
[00:17:06] Casey O'Roarty: Or the opposite. Yes, right. I mean, we've g- th- I had a high school experience with my son where I'm like, "Really?"
[00:17:12] Like-
[00:17:13] Dr. Stuart Slavin: Yes. Right. So-
[00:17:14] Casey O'Roarty: Come on.
[00:17:15] Dr. Stuart Slavin: Yes. A- absolutely. Up the expectation a little
[00:17:16] Casey O'Roarty: bit. Mm-hmm.
[00:17:17] Dr. Stuart Slavin: That is, that is absolutely the case. There are some schools where it's, expectations- It, the pendulum swings ... are too low, right?
[00:17:24] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:17:24] Dr. Stuart Slavin: But, but w- if you're in one of these schools that has kind of aspirations to be, quote, "high achieving"- Mm-hmm
[00:17:31] there's very good chance that they're putting on, um, probably excessive demands and pressures. Yeah. Looking at kids developmentally, it's just excessive. And in general, and this is big generalization and, and I don't want people to ... This is not hard and fast. But in general, what I tend to see is overall gender differences, and girls will say, "Where's the bar?
[00:17:53] I'll jump over it." I don't- Mm-hmm ... you know, like, tell me. A- and they will chase the performance and, and success and, and achievement, whereas s- uh, I think some boys, and this is a trend in this country that I think we need to worry about, they're saying, "Screw it."
[00:18:13] I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna do four hours of homework. I'm not gonna, you know, uh, uh, uh, like, uh, uh, sit in a, a, a class all day and then sit and do all of this homework. And so they, they, you know, they're like the, the quiet quitters or not so, you know- Mm-hmm ... quiet quitters. Yeah. And, and it worries me, 'cause sometimes then they're into, uh, uh, uh, trouble, and they're- Yeah
[00:18:33] in conflict with parents, and they're fighting with everybody. And then, you know, this kind of risk-taking behavior can take root. So those are, like, again, I don't want... You can see girls doing- Yeah ... that and boys doing the opposite. The other trend, which I think is really important for parents to understand, though, is there's profound evidence that perfectionism, and specifically this version of it called maladaptive perfectionism, is skyrocketing.
[00:19:00] And I've seen that in my own research, seen it in college- Mm-hmm ... students and high school students. And, and just to say briefly, maladaptive perfectionism is, is the way I describe it, is setting the bar so high for yourself, you'll repeatedly be disappointed in yourself. Hmm. And when you, when you have that disappointment, you suffer.
[00:19:18] You beat up on yourself. And I'm sure there are listeners out there, oh, like, are hearing, "That's my kid," you know? That,
[00:19:23] Casey O'Roarty: that- Yeah,
[00:19:24] Dr. Stuart Slavin: or, "That's
[00:19:24] Casey O'Roarty: me."
[00:19:25] Dr. Stuart Slavin: Yes, or, "That's me." Yeah. "That's me."
[00:19:27] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:19:28] Dr. Stuart Slavin: And a- Yeah ... lot of parents are that way in their own lives, but also in their parenting lives. Yeah. You know, there's a pressure to be the best parent possible, that it's- Yeah
[00:19:37] funny, we don't talk about as much in terms of social pressure. We're so focused on social pressure in kids. Yeah. I don't think we talk enough about the social pressure parents feel to be, like, the, I don't know, the super parent who's creating all of these opportunities and enrichment activities and, and, and, uh, so, so yeah, it's, it's big.
[00:19:57] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah, and I think any parent whose kids have taken an alternative road, however that looks, knows exactly what you're talking about, because- Yeah. Yeah ... we get on social media in June and watch people that we barely know praise all the accolades of their typical developing traditional kiddo, and we can feel that grief of- Yeah.
[00:20:20] Sure ... that timeline or that narrative that we think is normal, but really, it's just the familiar one. And so we want our kids... That's what we expected. I'm speaking for myself as- Yeah ... as well as others. And when those thing... You know, I remember when my son quit basketball his junior year- I, you know, I was, and, and he's a great basketball player, and there's details that I won't get into about that.
[00:20:47] Yeah. But the first th- and I kinda teased him, but I was also kinda serious. I said, "Well, what about senior night when I get to come to the middle of the court- "... and you get to hand me flowers? Like, what about that?" You know? Oh, that's, I love- And of course I supported him through- Yeah ... that process and everything.
[00:21:03] Yeah. But I d- I mean, but I did, like, honestly- You felt that. Yeah ... what about senior night? Yeah. What about, you know, I wanna take pictures. Wow, it's making me emotional actually- Yeah ... thinking about this. Yeah. Like, there was a lot of things that I didn't get to experience with my kids because of some of the choices, and I'm not saying bad choices- Yeah
[00:21:22] but some of the, like, alternative pathways that they chose and, and there is grief for us, you know?
[00:21:29] Dr. Stuart Slavin: Yeah.
[00:21:29] Casey O'Roarty: For us parents.
[00:21:30] Dr. Stuart Slavin: Yeah. And I, I'm so glad you brought it up and that you were open to talk about it, because I think a lot of this stuff is hidden. We tend not to really talk about this stuff. And, and, and yeah, I think we can, we can have a pretty substantial investment in our kids' success, and maybe in some ways is, is a reflection of our own success too, as a measure- Or lack of success.
[00:21:58] Or, or lack of, right? Like, we're just, it, it, like, if your kid is off doing these great things, then oh, then you were a great parent. And I think we have to- Yeah ... right? And so I think we have to be very careful about those kind of, there, there are traps there, you know? Yeah, for sure. That I think can be really dangerous.
[00:22:13] And the more we kind of are aware of, of them and, and, and talk about those things, I think the more likely we are to step in with, with kind of healthy reactions, you know- Yeah ... in this. And, and the last thing I'll say is I think, again, we talk about social media and things with, with our kids. Oh my God, the, the social media with parents, you know?
[00:22:33] Yeah. That's what I'm talking about. And it's, it's like- Yes ... big, right? It's huge. For sure. Yeah
[00:22:46] Casey O'Roarty: So for parents that are listening who are kinda like, "Hmm, okay, where's my kid at- Yeah ... in this conversation?" How do you tell the difference between, you know, a teenager who is stressed-
[00:22:58] Dr. Stuart Slavin: Mm-hmm ...
[00:22:59] Casey O'Roarty: and a teenager who's really in trouble-
[00:23:03] Dr. Stuart Slavin: Yeah ...
[00:23:03] Casey O'Roarty: and really needs extra support?
[00:23:06] Dr. Stuart Slavin: Yeah. I'll-- Ooh, it's a t- it's, it's a tr- a, a challenging question, and I'll do my best- Yeah
[00:23:12] to answer it. But, but, but one I would say Is I think sometimes we, we've pathologized worry and, and some forms of anxiety as if it's all bad. No, some worry is okay. Even anxiety, which is kind of worry plus physical reaction- Right ... or physical symptoms of, of stress, is, is, is normal and appropriate, and you don't wanna extinguish that.
[00:23:37] I'll give an example of, of really what anxiety... I mean, y- you can feel anxiety, um, driving home in the dark on an icy road, right? Yeah. Um, but that experience of like- Causes you to slow down and pay attention ... exactly. Yes. The benefits of that and kind of what I would call normal anxiety. But then there's, like, pathological or clinical anxiety, in which, oh, it's happening more frequently, more intensely, but w- with circumstances where somebody would look at it and why...
[00:24:09] w- you know, that seems like an overreaction kind of thing.
[00:24:12] Casey O'Roarty: Right.
[00:24:12] Dr. Stuart Slavin: And one thing I would say in terms of it's, it's, it's a very subjective thing, um, to decide i- is this the point where I c- I, I... my child should, should... we should seek help for them. Um, my, my quick kind of point I would make is I think there's profound evidence that, that parents wait too long.
[00:24:35] That, that, that by the time they take somebody for, to see a therapist or they talk to their pediatrician, it's often several years of it. So my... I guess my final kind of would be, um, if it feels like it's, uh, too much, like, seek help. I'd rather get, have somebody assessed. Yeah. Go to your pediatrician, family physician, nurse practitioner, adolescent specialist.
[00:24:58] Doesn't have to start with a mental health provider. Mm-hmm. But get some input on this because I think there's a tendency, and I say this without judgment, a, a tendency to wait too long.
[00:25:07] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:25:08] Dr. Stuart Slavin: In part because it feels like, and sometimes we normalize the struggle of adolescence. It's like- Yeah ... "Oh, adolescence is supposed to be hard."
[00:25:15] Yeah, it's supposed to be hard, but it shouldn't be- Yeah ... so full of suffering, I would think. Yeah.
[00:25:21] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah, I think I, you know, in our experience, I didn't know what I was seeing-
[00:25:26] Dr. Stuart Slavin: Mm-hmm ...
[00:25:26] Casey O'Roarty: actually. Yeah. And that's what kind of delayed. Yeah. And part of it was just how things were manifesting, but there was also a part of me that didn't wanna believe that there was, like, something bigger happening.
[00:25:40] Dr. Stuart Slavin: Yeah.
[00:25:40] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah, it's really an interesting-
[00:25:42] Dr. Stuart Slavin: Oh, I think
[00:25:43] Casey O'Roarty: that's a natural feeling- ... an interesting space. Yeah ...
[00:25:44] Dr. Stuart Slavin: Casey, to, to, like, hope That things aren't so bad. Yeah. And kind of wish them away. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a completely normal reaction. Yeah.
[00:25:53] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:25:53] Dr. Stuart Slavin: So I think for parents to kind of have insight into that tendency that I think we all can fall into, I think is really important.
[00:26:00] Casey O'Roarty: And do you feel like, 'cause I, I, you know, I know that I, in, with some of the parents that I've talked to, their kids don't want to... The, it's a, it's just a, it's a hard no on, hey, let's, you know, let's go talk to somebody. Let's check in with, you know. Let's do an assessment. Right. And kids, you know, are real- It's not all of them- Yeah
[00:26:21] but some of them are pretty resistant. And then I find that some people who might have on their Psychology Today webpage, like, I work with teenagers, honestly have no idea how to work with teenagers. Right.
[00:26:34] Dr. Stuart Slavin: Yeah. No, I think you're right. I, so, so it's a little bit of a landmine out there- Yeah ... that you, you face because I think especially, let's just talk about the therapist.
[00:26:42] There, there are therapists who are not gonna be good matches.
[00:26:45] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:26:46] Dr. Stuart Slavin: And I think the tendency after you see, you know, your first therapist and, "Uh, this isn't so good," you, you tend to s- it's easy to fall into the trap of saying, "Well, therapy isn't for me." This isn't for me. Yeah. But and- Yeah ... and that shouldn't be the conclusion.
[00:26:59] You could say, "This therapist isn't for me."
[00:27:01] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:27:02] Dr. Stuart Slavin: So I think that's something that's really important for parents. If they seek care and it doesn't seem like a f- good fit, or the child thinks it's not a good fit, look for somebody else. And I do think the safer bridge sometimes for people is if you have a good pediatrician or, you know, family physician, whoever- Yeah
[00:27:19] like the regular person is, they should be equipped, well-equipped, to screen for depression and anxiety, and then they can provide credibility to you to say, "Hey, I think it would be beneficial if you, if you saw a therapist."
[00:27:33] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:27:33] Dr. Stuart Slavin: The other thing that I would often tell medical students, too, this isn't like you have to go for years or something.
[00:27:39] I mean- Yeah ... certain cognitive behavioral therapy approaches, you can do like a relatively small number of visits, learn the skills, and that's it. So- Mm-hmm ... I think sometimes people think, "Oh, therapy," like it's gonna stretch forever, or it means like there's something deeply wrong with me.
[00:27:56] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:27:57] Dr. Stuart Slavin: I think the more we view it as, no, therapists can give you skills-
[00:28:02] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah
[00:28:02] Dr. Stuart Slavin: to deal with this crazy- Yeah ... demanding, difficult world to navigate.
[00:28:08] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:28:08] Dr. Stuart Slavin: Um, you know, so, so not that there's something wrong with you. And a quick tangent on this one. I think one of the things that really is problematic in, in this country and maybe around the world is that, that we've kind of medicalized, um, mental illness so that- Mm-hmm
[00:28:26] you know, if your child is suffering from depression or anxiety, we q- quickly think, "Oh, something's wrong with them."
[00:28:32] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:28:33] Dr. Stuart Slavin: But there are schools we'll talk about, I think, that, that where, you know, a majority of the kids have anxiety and depression. Yeah. If a majority of the kids in that community isn't a problem with all those individual kids, it's back to St.
[00:28:45] Louis U. It's what- Yeah ... we're doing to them. Yeah. And I think we need to get to that place to say, "Yeah, if the, if the population is having mental health disorders, yeah, let's get them access to mental healthcare. Let's get them, uh, you know, seen by competent therapists, but let's look at what we're doing to them as well."
[00:29:03] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. And I love that. I love using the pediatrician. They should already have a relationship- Yeah ... with the kiddo. I love having that other person there to say, "Hey, this is something to check out."
[00:29:14] Dr. Stuart Slavin: Yeah.
[00:29:14] Casey O'Roarty: Some of the language that I used also was, "Life shouldn't feel this hard."
[00:29:19] Dr. Stuart Slavin: Yeah. Oh, I love that.
[00:29:21] Casey O'Roarty: You know? It doesn't have to- Yeah
[00:29:22] feel this hard, and that there's people that go to school specifically to help kids- Mm ... move through, you know, stressful periods of time, and- Yeah ... and it's a space for you to figure out how to do that. And I think that most of us parents would say, "We're not, we're not the pressure." Mm. "We're the support system."
[00:29:41] Yeah. And so where is the gap, do you think, between what we think we're communicating to our kids-
[00:29:48] Dr. Stuart Slavin: Yeah ...
[00:29:48] Casey O'Roarty: and the messaging that they're actually receiving-
[00:29:52] Dr. Stuart Slavin: Yeah ...
[00:29:52] Casey O'Roarty: from parents? What do you think?
[00:29:53] Dr. Stuart Slavin: No, that's a great question. And, and there are a couple layers to this. One is I think there, there really are some parents there who really aren't adding to the pressure, and that's, I think that was my experience as a parent.
[00:30:08] You know, I did a lot of things wrong, but one that I was really good about was I, I knew they were getting enough pressure in the external world- Mm-hmm ... that I didn't need to add to it. And they were very conscientious kids and, you know, worked hard and did their homework and really were delightful, uh, you know, young women growing up.
[00:30:24] And, and, and so I think there are people Who know the pressures are really coming from th- like, th- the environment, the other kids, the other families, the teachers, all, every, th- everything that's screaming at them that you better get straight As, you better go to an elite college- Mm-hmm ... et cetera. The one caveat for that, though, and then, then there are certainly parents who are putting the pressure on.
[00:30:49] But the ones I think we have to be really mindful about that are, that really was, uh, something that w- I found in our surveys of students was that, um, we asked students to rate various stressors in their life, and it was, like, 35 different stressors, and it was kind of school stuff, you know, the amount of homework, getting straight As, failing a course.
[00:31:11] You know, those were all potential stressors. But it was also stuff like relationship with my parents or, you know, pressure from different people, pressure from teachers, pressure from parents, et cetera, but also social stuff, bullying, cyberbullying, problems with relationships, health. It was a wide range.
[00:31:29] So one I'll say is the top 12 stressors, top 12 stressors in every school I looked at were school and achievement-related.
[00:31:37] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:31:38] Dr. Stuart Slavin: On every single one. Yeah. But the one that is relevant to this one is there was one that was, um, pressure from parents.
[00:31:46] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:31:46] Dr. Stuart Slavin: And that was typically around, like, sixth or seventh highest ranked.
[00:31:50] Ranked higher than that as a stressor was pressure not to disappoint parents.
[00:31:56] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:31:56] Dr. Stuart Slavin: Pressure to not... Right? So even when you're not putting the direct pressure on, like, they know your values. Yeah. Like, so how are you reacting when you hear somebody, "Oh, somebody got into Stanford or Harvard," or, you know, et cetera, and you're like, "Ooh, that's so great," you know?
[00:32:11] Mm-hmm. So you have to be careful about communicating your values. And, and to these, you know, the big thing in my thinking about this is we shouldn't treat these as binaries. No, you can be happy- Yeah ... that somebody got into Harvard. You can be... But, but, you know, is that the only thing you're celebrating, you know?
[00:32:28] And is the only thing you're celebrating in your child is their academic performance? Mm-hmm. How about looking at other things, their creativity, their, their kindness, their compassion, their willingness- Mm-hmm ... to help out, their, you know, athletic ability, their artistic ability. We need to make sure we're cultivating, like, pride in multiple parts of their identity- Yeah
[00:32:49] not just their scores, their grades, what college they get into.
[00:32:53] Casey O'Roarty: This is so interesting, Stuart, because I think, and this co- this has come up recently in my community, um, in my membership group. We've had, uh, some conversation around this. And I'm sure you've heard this- Mm ... we just want you to do, try your best.
[00:33:09] Your grades don't matter, we just want you to try your best. Yeah. Unspoken. Yeah. If you're trying your best, you're getting great grades.
[00:33:15] Dr. Stuart Slavin: Yeah, yeah.
[00:33:15] Casey O'Roarty: Right? And that, that m- you know, I think that's such a d- a, a perfect example of, like, what we think we're delivering and what they're actually receiving.
[00:33:27] Dr. Stuart Slavin: Yeah, yeah.
[00:33:28] Casey O'Roarty: Right? We just, it's, it's just about effort. Yes. It's not about your grades. Yeah. But effort looks like you're getting good grades. I
[00:33:36] Dr. Stuart Slavin: know. Or that that effort means you're, you're getting s- five or six hours of sleep a night. Yeah. Because, uh, I, you want best effort. Yeah. Best effort means I don't do things for fun.
[00:33:46] Best effort ... So yeah, we have to even be careful around language about best effort, and that's one- Yeah ... that I would often go to as a parent. But even that one's a little loaded,
[00:33:55] Casey O'Roarty: right? It's tricky. Yeah, it, it is. It's totally loaded. Yeah. And I, I love the b- So there's two books that I encourage parents to read, The Gift of Failure by Jessica Lahey.
[00:34:04] Dr. Stuart Slavin: Mm-hmm.
[00:34:04] Casey O'Roarty: And, uh, The Self-Driven Child.
[00:34:07] Dr. Stuart Slavin: Ah, yeah.
[00:34:07] Casey O'Roarty: Um, and I can't think of Ned- Oh, Bill s-
[00:34:10] Dr. Stuart Slavin: uh, Ned Johnson and Bill Stixrud- Yes ... who, who I know well, and they're, yes-
[00:34:14] Casey O'Roarty: Yes.
[00:34:15] Dr. Stuart Slavin: Well, Ned is- ... e- endorse it fully. Yes.
[00:34:16] Casey O'Roarty: Yes. He's been, both Jessica and Ned have both been on the podcast- Ah, yeah ... and talked to me about their work.
[00:34:21] Dr. Stuart Slavin: Yeah.
[00:34:22] Casey O'Roarty: And I, and it's, it's so interesting to me what a foreign concept it is for parents to feel like they can let go and, and- Yeah ... allow- Yeah ... the e- the tension and the experience of natural consequence. Mm, mm. And, and I think adolescence especially, if you haven't already started, adolescence is really asking for parents to be willing to say like, "This is, this is training ground for life."
[00:34:54] Yeah. And if this is training ground for life- Yeah ... that means you're des- you're the designer.
[00:35:00] Dr. Stuart Slavin: I, I-
[00:35:01] Casey O'Roarty: Right? ...
[00:35:01] Dr. Stuart Slavin: couldn't agree more. And, and one thing, I, just as a side kind of comment related to that, if you look at kids these days, they have such little autonomy in their life overall. Yeah. You know? The, like ... And things like, it feels like so many schools, arts and humanities and, and, you know- Uh, als- music and things like that have just been kind of crowded out by just the focus on, on academic performance.
[00:35:28] Yeah. And so- Yeah ... um, and it even feels like a lot of the elective choices have been kind of eliminated. And, and so I think when you look at kids' lives, especially as it relates to school, they have very little autonomy. Mm-hmm. Very little ability to choose what they're learning or how they're learning.
[00:35:43] And honestly, I think it's one of the, one of the, the attractions of screens- Yeah ... is, like, they're in control. They ... Well, they feel like they're in control. No, they're algorithms. They, they are the appearance of control. Yeah. But they get to choose what they ... Right? And so one quick aside then about that is I think sometimes, yeah, we sh- we have to think about rules related to it, phones and limiting their use and, and, you know, stopping them at a certain hour at night, but I think the other thing is we should also be working on the other side of the ledger, is how about we make their real life a little bit more attractive?
[00:36:21] Yeah. You know? Yeah. And enjoyable. Yeah. Um, because it's ... I, I think that's another piece, and I'd never really studied this, but I think for many kids, school is a pretty joyless experience. Yeah. You know? For sure. So, so yeah. I think we have to, we have to hit that side of things as well. Yeah.
[00:36:42] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. Well, and just one little thing about that lack of autonomy-
[00:36:46] Dr. Stuart Slavin: Mm
[00:36:47] Casey O'Roarty: which, by the way, everyone, like, we're literally launching them into the world to be autonomous- Yes, yes ... so they have to practice being autonomous. Yeah. But it seems also, and you tell me what you see on your end, that that lack of autonomy is either met with Fine, then I'm not gonna do anything, or I'm gonna fight you for power.
[00:37:10] I'm gonna take it where I can get it. Yes. Watch me, middle finger, I'm outta here. Yes. Right?
[00:37:15] Dr. Stuart Slavin: Absolutely, completely agree. And I think your point, uh, this is training ground for, for adulthood. Mm-hmm. And if you haven't given them that in their early years, what are they gonna do when they get out? And the s- the second, uh, uh, the home, the second kind of, I think, is connected, too, to some degree, is this concept of intrinsic motivation and extrinsic motivation.
[00:37:41] Yeah. You know, that they, that they've been acculturated into just pursuing grades and scores and things like that, and haven't been given the opportunity. Um, so what I would say is really important, to, to, to f- they haven't been given the opportunity to find that thing they love, because their world and days are filled with stuff they have to do.
[00:38:01] So part of the autonomy is, like, supporting them in figuring out what do they want? What do they love? Mm-hmm. What fills them up? What gives them meaning? I think that's one... And you don't get to decide that. Yes. That's up to the kid, but you can support that process, I think, much more than we tend to do in adolescence.
[00:38:21] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:38:31] So let's bring it back to the family system. Mm-hmm. So you talked about what you did in St. Louis, pulling back on the demands. In a family, what does that look like? What are the loads perhaps that parents don't realize that they can actually loosen- Yeah ... or take off of their kiddos?
[00:38:54] Dr. Stuart Slavin: Oh, it's, that's hard, and I, I, I mean, when I think back on my daughter's experience in high school where, you know, the, the, it was a great school in many ways, but, but it also, the, the expectation and, and loads were too much.
[00:39:09] I think the only leverage I had, and this, this is just the reality in terms of loads, was I, like, limited, like, um, I think my older daughter in junior year, she wanted to take, like, six AP classes, and I just said, "No." Like- Mm-hmm ... "You can't." Like- Mm-hmm ... "You can't do that." And I, and I did, I rarely said no to things.
[00:39:29] I rarely exerted control. So that's one, is when c- your child and, and, and extracurricular activities, where they wanna be, you know, president of four clubs and do this activity- Yeah ... and that activity. That's probably one of the places they exert control. But part of me is also, I think that what I hope this book will do in part, is that ultimately, I think what I would love to see is, is schools do what I did at St.
[00:39:57] Louis U, and no, like, schools back off the pressure. Yeah. Schools, you know, limit the amount of homework. Schools limit how much the kids are expected to learn. And, um, and I think the only way that will happen, the only way that h- will happen, is if enough parents in a community get together and say, "No."
[00:40:19] Yeah. "You're not gonna do this to our kids anymore. You're not gonna do this." And, and so, um, a, a superintendent once told me, uh, uh, a guy I respect a great deal, he said, "Schools are just a reflection of what the community wants." Mm-hmm. So those high-achieving schools are, are, are delivering what... And, and so my hope is some, at some point, there's gonna be a school like us at St.
[00:40:45] Louis U who say, "No, we're not gonna, we're not gonna do this to kids anymore." Yeah. "And we're willing to risk a drop in achievement. We're gonna risk that," even though I think, I tell you, you get kids eight hours of sleep a night, seven and a half hours of sleep a night versus six, six and a half, I, I, I think they're gonna perform better.
[00:41:07] You're not- Mm-hmm ... racing through the curriculum, you know, where it's, where they say it's a mile wide and an inch deep- Mm-hmm ... where it's not attached to any meaning, and they for- they learn- Yeah ... something for a Friday, gone in two months. You know, I, I think that, I think there really is hope That ultimately, yeah, parents, I want parents to have more than just trying to help their kids manage what I think is kind of a toxic experience for way too many kids in this country.
[00:41:35] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. Yeah. Yes. I mean, I feel like What's being centered in, especially in public schools right now, is not what's best for kids.
[00:41:45] Dr. Stuart Slavin: No, it's just not. But again, to some degree, I don't blame the school administrators.
[00:41:52] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:41:52] Dr. Stuart Slavin: They're under pressures with, you know, test scores you have to have- I know ... you have to launch these kids into these prestigious colleges- Oh
[00:41:59] to attract the people that'll- Yeah ... move into this community. So they're under these enormous pressure. But I think that's the piece where I feel a little bit like, I think we can have it all. Like, our students at St. Louis U had it all. Yeah, yeah. They had, they had meaning, they had purpose, they had joy, you know, they avoided mental health problems.
[00:42:19] They, and, and they achieved by all metrics- Yeah ... you know? So- Yeah ... so I d- I think last I'll say about this is that sometimes we put... Like, it's either invest in achievement or invest in wellbeing, like they're an opposite. Mm-hmm. You know, that- Right ... they're, they're, they're in conflict. I don't think so. And I think we have to be-- Somebody's gonna have to have the courage, as a school and as a community, say, "We're gonna do this.
[00:42:44] We're gonna give it a shot." I hope that happens. Well,
[00:42:46] Casey O'Roarty: yeah, and I wonder if we can just redefine what achievement actually means, right?
[00:42:50] Dr. Stuart Slavin: Or what success means, right? Yeah, exactly. I mean, yeah. What I would add to that is really important. You c- let's say you get your kid into, you know, one of these elite schools, you know, one of these, uh, highly competitive school, Ivys or Stanford, UN- Duke, you name it.
[00:43:06] Um, but they have a profound mental health disorder, or God forbid, are, are- Yeah ... involved in self-injurious behavior, or, you know. Um, is that the outcome you want? Right. And what I also think people need to recognize, we're s- we focus so much on, they need to be academically prepared for, for college. No, they need to be psychologically prepared- Yeah
[00:43:23] for college, because probably the number of kids who drop out of college, one, cost and economics is big, but, but the otherwise, um, uh, emotional problems and mental health disorders, mental health problems, um, three times more common than, "I wasn't prepared academically." You know? Yeah. So we need to broaden this idea, what does it mean to prepare for college, right?
[00:43:48] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:43:49] Dr. Stuart Slavin: And I would put mental health as like w- it, it's gotta be up there. It, it- Yeah ... has to be one of our highest priorities.
[00:43:55] Casey O'Roarty: I did an interview last year about college prep testing- Mm ... like SAT and ACT, and one of the things that I took away that's really landed for me from the conversation is, it's not about getting your kid into college, it's about getting your kid into a college that they graduate from.
[00:44:14] Yeah.
[00:44:14] Dr. Stuart Slavin: It's
[00:44:15] Casey O'Roarty: tr- Right? And that's a really different- Ooh ... way of thinking about it. I don't have kids that are at elite colleges. I have kids at colleges that are the just right fit for them.
[00:44:24] Dr. Stuart Slavin: You got it. That should be the goal. Different people have written about this, Frank Bruni Where you go is not where you'll be kind of, right?
[00:44:31] Yeah. I think is the title of the book, which is that elite colleges may not be offering m- much more in terms of success path, and especially if you have a mental health disorder and drop out, it's definitely, uh, not a good path. And then Malcolm Gladwell wrote about the advantages of being the big fish in the little pond.
[00:44:51] Yeah. You know, if you're going to a, a really good college, but you are, like, the top of the heap there in terms of academic performance, you can leverage that into success. So I, I think we have to get, move beyond this idea, and I, I, I understand why parents are chasing these things, but I think we have to move beyond this idea that the most prestigious college is what your target should be.
[00:45:15] Yeah. Like, what price are you gonna pay in terms of their emotional health, and frankly, at what price are you gonna be willing to pay economically for that future?
[00:45:23] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:45:23] Dr. Stuart Slavin: Right? So.
[00:45:25] Casey O'Roarty: Well, and I, I had told this story before, but, uh, when my son was a sophomore, we, on spring break, we walked the UCLA campus- Oh,
[00:45:32] Dr. Stuart Slavin: yeah
[00:45:33] Casey O'Roarty: with my parents, and he was like, "Oh, this is, this is really cool." "Like, I could see this." And I said, "Oh, you like this campus?" He said, "Yeah." I said- It's not for you. Yeah. This door has already closed. Yeah. I said, "However-
[00:45:47] Dr. Stuart Slavin: Yeah ...
[00:45:47] Casey O'Roarty: you have time now-
[00:45:49] Dr. Stuart Slavin: Yeah ...
[00:45:49] Casey O'Roarty: to pay attention and decide how many doors continue to stay open."
[00:45:54] Dr. Stuart Slavin: Yeah.
[00:45:55] Casey O'Roarty: Wow. You know? And that was really the big pep talk. Yeah. It was just really like, "You get to decide how many options you have. This one, unfortunately, is closed."
[00:46:03] Dr. Stuart Slavin: Yes.
[00:46:04] Casey O'Roarty: No, I think- Like, there's no way you're getting these,
[00:46:04] Dr. Stuart Slavin: yeah ... yeah, but the reality of thi- I think that's a very fair thing to say, and to kind of leverage that into like- Yeah.
[00:46:11] And
[00:46:11] Casey O'Roarty: it was with lightness and playfulness- Yeah, yeah, yeah ... but also like, "
[00:46:14] Dr. Stuart Slavin: Sorry, buddy." Like, there's a message here. Yeah. I think that's great. Yeah. I love that story.
[00:46:17] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. So I wanna bring us back, and you mentioned this word just in this, the final few minutes. Mm-hmm. Resilience.
[00:46:24] Dr. Stuart Slavin: Yeah.
[00:46:25] Casey O'Roarty: Um, so it's a word I think that gets beaten half to death.
[00:46:30] I think a lot of people hold resilience as you gotta keep going- Yeah ... no matter what it costs you. There's a lot of conversation around, "Well, this generation, they don't know what resilience means," which I would argue against. How do you hold resilience- Yeah ... and where do you see places where parents can be in promotion-
[00:46:50] Dr. Stuart Slavin: Yeah
[00:46:51] Casey O'Roarty: and nurture resilience in their teens today?
[00:46:53] Dr. Stuart Slavin: I, I'm so glad you introduced that topic in the way you did, because I think there's pushback on it. And in medicine, where, you know, there are significant problems in terms of mental health for doctors and medical students in residence- Yeah ... there's a real pushback against, uh, this idea of resilience, which is definitely understandable, but problematic.
[00:47:10] Um, because I think what's important to say is one's experience in life is, is kind of a mixture of, of the environment you're in and your reaction to it. Yeah. And my experience with medical students, um, really opened my eyes to see that there was a pr- pers- particular aspect of resilience that, that, um, was really missing and, and, and these very specific vulnerabilities that, uh, we talked a little bit about before, which was this- Yeah
[00:47:43] maladaptive perfectionism, where these students were so hard on themselves. Mm-hmm. I mean, there were some students, if they weren't in the top 10%, that was a devastating outcome, right? So, so I think what I would say is that there are, are these kind of, uh, profound risks these days that are greater than they used to be to have these, I think, self-critical mindsets that can add profoundly to the distress caused by the environment.
[00:48:15] Okay. So, so that... And, and in my book, there are a couple chapters on these kind of mindsets and, and also these cognitive distortions, where basically kids create self-narratives about their own performance, about their own self-worth, et cetera, that are just so predictable and so false. That, that I think we can- this is a role parents I think can play, which is, um, which is to help their kids start to see that their s- thoughts are just stories.
[00:48:52] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:48:52] Dr. Stuart Slavin: They're just stories, and let's see if we can come up with one that's actually more accurate- Mm-hmm ... that we can support with evidence, and isn't causing you so much pain, right? Yeah. And so I think there's a place. I mean, th- a lot of that, what I teach there, is related to cognitive behavioral therapy.
[00:49:11] And my, my question is, I, like, why do we withhold these techniques until you've developed a mental health disorder- Mm-hmm ... and need to see a therapist? And that was one part of the intervention we didn't really talk about at St. Louis U., is I taught them these skills. Um- Yeah ... and, and I think it was immensely helpful, because it isn't all the environment.
[00:49:32] It's a reaction. And so I don't think resilience should ever be seen as a- ... dirty word, u- unless it's seen as the answer. Yeah. It, it can't, uh, it can't be the, the answer. It has to be a supportive intervention as we really wrestle with these deep problems that we see in the environment. So yeah- Yeah ... I'm, I'm all in on supporting people.
[00:49:52] And who, I don't know, to me, the last thing I'll say about this is like, why wouldn't you wanna have skillsets that help you deal with the inevitable stresses and challenges- Yeah ... in life, right?
[00:50:05] Casey O'Roarty: Right.
[00:50:05] Dr. Stuart Slavin: And last- That just keep coming. Yeah, that keep coming. And last thing I'll say related to that, and the goal with resilience is not to feel bad when things happen.
[00:50:13] No, it's okay to feel pain.
[00:50:15] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:50:16] Dr. Stuart Slavin: No, it's just not to compound it with a- Right ... false narrative that you're telling about yourself. That's what it's about.
[00:50:21] Casey O'Roarty: Well, and I love that you mentioned evidence, like for parents- Mm ... to grab evidence. Yeah. We have-- So I'm a positive discipline lead trainer, and I work with- Yeah
[00:50:31] parent educators, I work with parents, and one of the tools that we talk about is encouragement, and specifically using, we call it empowering encouragement- Yeah ... which is naming the characteristic that we see with evidence. So an example that I'll use is, "Hey, you know what? I watched you in the driveway working on your free throw for three hours, and most of the time you were missing, but you kept working on it, and you kept getting better, and that took an incredible amount of persistence."
[00:51:05] Dr. Stuart Slavin: Yeah. "
[00:51:05] Casey O'Roarty: And you can use that persistence on this math homework that you're doing that's so discouraging to you right now. Like, that persistence lives inside of you." And so, like, really naming the skills that we're seeing- Is such a powerful thing to do as well. Okay, so this has been such a useful conversation.
[00:51:30] Stuart, I'm so excited to share it with my listeners. I always end with the same two questions. So the first one is, in the context of the work that you do, what does joyful courage mean to you?
[00:51:43] Dr. Stuart Slavin: Hmm. Th- yeah, I love that question, and I love that, that term, joyful courage. No, I think what leaps out to me is that I think it does take courage to resist some of these social pressures we've talked about on parents, and to say, "No, I'm not gonna abandon- Mm-hmm
[00:51:59] a desire for achievement or success or things like that." Really important that we say that. But, but let's shade things so that we can do more to support our kids' wellbeing and not just their pursuit of success, and that I think it does take courage right now- Yeah ... because the pressures are enormous, and the f- and the insecurity people feel about their kids' future, like, "I better launch them into, like, the world of success or they're gonna struggle economically, financially- Yeah
[00:52:28] you know, their whole lives." And then I think the joyful piece of that, though, is that I think if you take that step, I think there will be more joy- Mm-hmm ... in your life, and your y- your, your, your kids as well. So yeah, I think it's-
[00:52:43] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah ...
[00:52:43] Dr. Stuart Slavin: it's a, it's a wonderful target. I love that.
[00:52:45] Casey O'Roarty: Ah.
[00:52:46] Dr. Stuart Slavin: Yeah.
[00:52:46] Casey O'Roarty: Thank you. Where can people find you and follow your work and find your book?
[00:52:51] Dr. Stuart Slavin: Yeah, so the, the book is, uh, The Success Trap, as you said, and should be available, I think, uh, you know, at, at, at all of the online kind of retailers, and hopefully at some independent bookstores as well. Yeah. Um, and then in terms of just more information, um, I have a website now, um, which is drstuartslavin.com, which is just D-R stuartsllavin.com.
[00:53:13] Mm-hmm. Um, there's a contact place, and if people wanna reach out to me, I always love to hear from people as well about these challenges and, and how people are facing them. So yeah, and Casey, just thank you. This was, this was a delight to, to spend time with you. And, and- Yes ... you know what? To find so much common ground y- on this- Mm-hmm
[00:53:31] you know? So- Yeah. Yes ... so thank you for having me.
[00:53:34] Casey O'Roarty: Well, thank you. Thank you so much for your work and for creating this resource for parents. I will make sure that the links are in the show notes, everyone, so you'll be able to find the book and contact Dr. Slavin if that feels good to you. Thank you. Thank you, thank you.
[00:53:50] Thank you so much.
[00:53:51] Dr. Stuart Slavin: Yeah, take care.
[00:53:56] Thank
[00:53:56] Casey O'Roarty: you so much for listening. Thank you to my Sproutable partners, Julietta and Alana. Thank you, Danielle, for supporting with the show notes, as well as Chris Mann and the team at Podshaper for all the support with getting the show out there and making it sound good. As I mentioned, sharing is caring.
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[00:54:33] I see you doing all the things. I believe in you. See you next time