Eps 674: Co-Parenting Boundaries with Amy Armstrong

“Joyful courage is our birthright, and nobody gets to take it away from us. That’s our power, that’s ours, and nobody gets to touch it.” – Amy Armstrong

Resources

• Amy’s free kit for Joyful Courage listeners: co-parenting communication scripts, a five-minute nervous system reset, and a guide to boundaries that aren’t working: podcast.thecenterforfamilyresolution.com/courage
• The Center for Family Resolution
• Boundary Basics by Amy Armstrong, coming this fall
• Real-Time Parenting by Amy Armstrong
• Amy on TikTok: Amy Armstrong Conflict Free (also on Instagram, LinkedIn, and Threads)
• The Courage to Be Disliked and The Courage to Be Happy by Ichiro Kishimi and Fumitake Koga
• Positive Discipline tool: decide what you will do and follow through

Subscribe to the Podcast

Transcription

[00:00:00] Casey O'Roarty: Welcome, welcome. Welcome to the Joyful Courage Podcast. This is a place where parents of tweens and teens come to find inspiration, information, and encouragement in the messy terrain of adolescence. This season of parenting is no joke. And while the details of what we're all moving through might be slightly different, we are indeed having a very collective experience.
[00:00:29] This is a space where we center building relationship, nurturing life skills, and leaning into our own personal growth. And man, the opportunities abound, right? My name is Casey O'Rourty. I am a parent coach, positive discipline lead trainer, and captain of the adolescent ship over at Sproutable. I'm also a speaker and a published author.
[00:00:52] I've been working with parents and families for over 20 years and continue to navigate my own experience of being a mom with my two young adult kids. I'm so honored that you're here and listening. Please give back to the podcast by sharing it with friends or on social media. Rate and review us on Apple or Spotify.
[00:01:12] Word of mouth is how we grow. Thank you so, so much. Enjoy the show.
[00:01:22] Welcome back listeners. I'm so glad that, that you're tuning in for another interview. Listen, here's something almost nobody wants to say out loud. You can do everything right, follow all the rules, show up as your best self, and someone else in your life can still make it hard. That is very true for me in this current moment, and I know it's true for others.
[00:01:48] Maybe it's a co-parenting situation, maybe it's your own teen or your mother-in-law, or the parent at pickup who pushes every button that you have. Maybe you're just witnessing your friends or family moving through tough relationships. But here's the thing, the skills that we're talking about today aren't just for people navigating a messy divorce or a messy co-parenting relationship.
[00:02:12] This conversation is for any of us who have ever lost ourselves in someone else's reactivity and behavior, and forgotten where we end and they begin. I think that that is so, so relatable. My guest today is Amy Armstrong, and she has spent 15 years at the intersection of mental health and family law. And what she's learned about boundaries, about staying grounded, about protecting our kids from conflict without pretending everything is fine, oof, that's so big.
[00:02:45] Amy Armstrong: Mm-hmm.
[00:02:45] Casey O'Roarty: It's gonna land for all of us, whether you're co-parenting with someone difficult, or you're just a parent trying to stop reacting and start leading. So if you've been lying awake, replaying conversations, bracing for the next hard thing, you're not failing, you're just carrying something that was never yours to fix alone.
[00:03:04] Amy's gonna help us put it all down today, not by fixing anybody else, but by coming home to our own grounded, steady authority. I am so grateful-
[00:03:15] Amy Armstrong: Mm-hmm ...
[00:03:15] Casey O'Roarty: to have you here. Everyone, just stay with us. Amy, welcome to the podcast.
[00:03:20] Amy Armstrong: Thank you, Casey. What a gorgeous introduction. You said it so- Mm ... well. We are gonna put it down today.
[00:03:27] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. Well, I think you can probably hear, as I'm sure listeners are hearing, like- Yeah ... I'm in my own stuff, right? Like, the life experience is a constant unfolding, and an ebb and a flow, and a spiral of just continuously bumping up against those life lessons which come in the form, for me anyway, of relationship.
[00:03:52] Amy Armstrong: Nightmares.
[00:03:53] Casey O'Roarty: Nightmares. Yeah- Yeah ... totally. And when you talk about the work that you do, you talk about it as being really personal, that your own experience with chronic conflict became the springboard for everything that you've built. So can you take us into whatever you're willing to share about how your life has informed your work?
[00:04:13] And when did you first realize that, specifically, like, the boundary work wasn't necessarily- Mm-hmm ... about control, but about freedom? Talk about that
[00:04:23] Amy Armstrong: Oh, you are picking up on some of my favorite- ... phrases Yes. I learned, I would call it 20 years ago, so when I was a- in my mid-40s, I had my breakdown, the definitely the dark night of the soul.
[00:04:39] I had identified myself as the missus. You ask me how I am, I'll answer how my husband is, because my life was dependent on his moods, right? He was having a good day, guess what? I was happy. Mm-hmm. He was having a bad day, I was, like, on the run, scrambling, trying to clean the house, trying to get the kids to behave, trying to say the right thing or, you know, make him the perfect martini.
[00:05:07] Well, of course it didn't work because I was looking to the outside. I was looking to be the good girl, the rule follower, just do the right thing. I would literally sit up at night and think of a strategy. "Okay, if I just do this, this, and this, he will be happy, and he will be nice to me, and he will talk to me, and maybe he'll even come to bed sometime, you know, when I'm still awake."
[00:05:28] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:05:29] Amy Armstrong: So it was this constant ruminating about how can I get him to do something different. And the aha came to me, I don't wanna say too late because there's no such thing as too late, but the aha wasn't my own. It came to me because he was gone, the kids were gone. He had taken them on vacation. I wasn't invited.
[00:05:52] I was home curled up in a ball on my shower floor. I needed friends to come over, throw me in the shower. Like, "Amy, come on. Get a life." And it really was those friends, I'm gonna call it community, that really said to me, "I think you can do better."
[00:06:07] Casey O'Roarty: Mm. "
[00:06:07] Amy Armstrong: Get yourself back in school. Get yourself on your own two feet.
[00:06:12] Stand up straight. Let's go." And one friend even had the nerve to say, "You could start saying what was actually true for you." And I was like, "No, I would get in so much trouble if I actually spoke the truth." But fortunately, these friends did not give up on me. I started trying little bits after little bits after little bits.
[00:06:32] And the big aha for me around boundaries was that saying what I wanted rather than what he couldn't do or what he should do was incredibly empowering. And it did, it took me a long time. And of course, I'm so grateful now to have a career where, I mean, I'm sure there's listeners out there right now that are nodding, that are saying, "Hey, I've read all the books.
[00:07:01] I've tried to save this relationship. I've tried to communicate with I messages. I've been to therapy. I've talked to so many people. Why am I still in so much agony-
[00:07:14] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah ...
[00:07:15] Amy Armstrong: over this?" It's not about the thing- Mm-hmm ... that you do, right? Mm-hmm. And I was literally scared to death Literally scared to death to try just being me.
[00:07:29] Casey O'Roarty: Mm.
[00:07:29] Amy Armstrong: I thought there's no way that could be a good thing.
[00:07:31] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. Well, first of all, like, thank God for friends. Yay. Thank God for girlfriends. And, and you know, like for them to intuit that you needed something and to not walk away-
[00:07:48] Amy Armstrong: Yeah, I was probably- Yeah ... very annoying to them.
[00:07:51] Casey O'Roarty: Well, I mean, I wish I was a better compartmentalizer or disassociator.
[00:07:55] Mm. I am neither of those things. Women are though. We don't,
[00:07:57] Amy Armstrong: we're women. We don't do that.
[00:07:59] Casey O'Roarty: I am neither of those things, and so everything's always alive for me, and I try really hard... Well, I don't try. I, I feel like I can't help but show up authentically. Mm-hmm. And it's really- It's a gift ... challenging. It's a gift, and it's really challenging when you're- Mm-hmm
[00:08:17] someone who supports others to also be someone in the muck, you know? Right. And anyway, to ride those two things, so thank God for girlfriends. And also, I love what you just said about the difference between speaking into what needs to be fixed versus here's what I want and here's what I need.
[00:08:38] Amy Armstrong: And getting clear.
[00:08:40] First of all, getting clear. Mm-hmm. So I know there's people out there that hear their friends or their sister or their neighbor talk about a relationship problem, and you can't figure out, what are you trying to do here? We're so used to complaining or saying what's wrong very naturally, rather than doing the work of getting clear on your priorities and what a good day would look like.
[00:09:06] Mm-hmm. What do you need to have a good day?
[00:09:07] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:09:08] Amy Armstrong: What do you need to enjoy this relationship? What do you actually need from this person with whom you are in relationship? Of course, they're gonna do things that are not cool. And are there some non-negotiables for you that you get to declare- Mm-hmm ... in a, I call it pro me, not anti you.
[00:09:27] Casey O'Roarty: Mm.
[00:09:27] Amy Armstrong: Right?
[00:09:28] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:09:28] Amy Armstrong: So like so many of the people listening I bet have read books on narcissistic abuse, on communication, you know, it's so much about what's going on with this other person because maybe if I understood them better- Yeah ... then I could somehow control it more.
[00:09:44] Casey O'Roarty: Yes. Oh my God.
[00:09:45] Amy Armstrong: And that is the spiral.
[00:09:47] Yeah. Of course, we need to learn and understand, but we need to have courage- And when I didn't have courage, my life, I was in such physical pain.
[00:09:59] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:10:00] Amy Armstrong: And so I love your title, I love all the work that you and your team are doing around really what does it look like to have courage to try something different, rather than being- Yeah
[00:10:13] in that loop-
[00:10:14] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah ...
[00:10:15] Amy Armstrong: where you're constantly feeling bad but keep trying-
[00:10:19] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah ...
[00:10:20] Amy Armstrong: where you're not making any progress.
[00:10:21] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. And so your experience was to leave the relationship, correct?
[00:10:27] Amy Armstrong: I did not. He did.
[00:10:28] Casey O'Roarty: Oh, you didn't?
[00:10:29] Amy Armstrong: He did. I didn't have the courage.
[00:10:31] Casey O'Roarty: Okay. Well-
[00:10:32] Amy Armstrong: He left ...
[00:10:33] Casey O'Roarty: isn't it funny how the universe delivers-
[00:10:34] Amy Armstrong: And I had to be the one-
[00:10:36] just what we- ... to finally make it legal.
[00:10:38] Casey O'Roarty: Okay.
[00:10:38] Amy Armstrong: But no, he left, and then I rebuilt- Yeah ... basically from scratch.
[00:10:44] Casey O'Roarty: Right. And you do work with- with family law and like because- Mm ... that's the thing, when we also have children, it's not just like, "Okay, peace out, dude."
[00:10:54] Amy Armstrong: No, no, not if they want you.
[00:10:56] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah, and I'm the child of a divorce- Mm
[00:10:59] of actually a couple divorces, so I know, which I never... It's so funny. I think about me as a little girl. There was never a time in my life where I was like, "Oh, my mom and dad, I wish they'd just get back together." It was so clear to me, even as a young child- Wow ... that this was not useful, and they did not co-parent well.
[00:11:19] They were a nightmare.
[00:11:20] Amy Armstrong: Oh, no.
[00:11:21] Casey O'Roarty: And, you know, it's all part of the soup, right? Yeah. Yeah. And a lot of the people that I work with, you know, they are in these, you know, relationships with partners who... You know, it's a rare family that I work with where it's like, "You know what? We do this really well together."
[00:11:39] Amy Armstrong: Right.
[00:11:39] Casey O'Roarty: I do know people who do it really well separate, and then I know a lot of people who it's very difficult. Mm-hmm. And I think there's this tendency, what I hear, and that you can tell me in the work that you do, it seems like there's this quiet hope that, you know, like you said, if we can understand the narcissistic disorder, if we- Yeah
[00:11:59] can understand fill in the blank about the person, we can control it or fix it. Maybe it's the right like custody.
[00:12:06] Amy Armstrong: Right. The right parenting plan.
[00:12:08] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah, the parenting plan, or the judge you end up with-
[00:12:11] Amy Armstrong: Mm-hmm ...
[00:12:11] Casey O'Roarty: that can like sort out the conflict, but it's not enough to fix our co-parenting. So what is it?
[00:12:19] Amy Armstrong: Well, court...
[00:12:19] Yeah. Yeah. So court verdicts do not help relationships. Mm. I'm in the relationship business. And I did cut my teeth in conflict resolution in custody battles, hard ones where maybe a teen doesn't wanna spend time with one of the parents- Right ... because the conflict is too high to go back and forth. Or maybe the teen all of a sudden, I literally had this today, where a dad gave his children permission to be very disrespectful to mom in the name of boundaries.
[00:12:49] You know- Mm-hmm ... you need to use your voice. Well, he was letting them swear at mom. It was awful.
[00:12:55] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:12:55] Amy Armstrong: So custody battles are the worst, but like you said, people listening might be going through that, but they also might just be going through intense heartache. But at the end of the day, the relationship requires each person.
[00:13:10] So for you to be happy in a relationship, you have to be happy with yourself. You have to trust- Mm ... yourself. You have to know what it means To trust yourself when what is authentic for you is difficult for the other person, and you stay in it. You stay in it. So with all my clients that are in court, we prioritize.
[00:13:31] We look at what is your immediate need, and what is the success indicator? So how will you know when it's working?
[00:13:41] Casey O'Roarty: Hmm.
[00:13:42] Amy Armstrong: Right? So I helped a mom get ready for her mediation, was yesterday, and she didn't think she could even be in the same room with her ex. And she got prepared where she was so clear on what her priorities were that she literally practiced when other things were gonna come up, which they inevitably would, she prepared what she was gonna say to bring the conversation back to her priorities only.
[00:14:07] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:14:07] Amy Armstrong: And this was one of those women that was used to just explaining, explaining, explaining, thinking that eventually he would understand her and help, you know, get, make it so that they were cooperating. No way. The more she explained, the more she dug a big hole for herself. So she had to learn how to be very brief, very clear, and that requires trust of yourself- Mm-hmm
[00:14:32] of what is okay and what is not. So-
[00:14:35] Casey O'Roarty: Oof. And
[00:14:35] Amy Armstrong: brief ... what is okay for one person might be very much not okay for someone else.
[00:14:41] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:14:41] Amy Armstrong: And nobody can give you that. That advice has to come from literally the sensation in your body.
[00:14:48] Casey O'Roarty: Mm. Yeah. Well, two words: brief and trust. I think we go on and on because it's hard to believe that short and sweet, direct and clear is enough, right?
[00:15:01] I mean, I say we, I'm totally talking about myself right now.
[00:15:05] Amy Armstrong: Oh, let, it's a club. It's a club. And we need to recognize that do, do, do- Mm-hmm ... that do more, do more, do more, that's actually a fight or flight reaction.
[00:15:15] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:15:15] Amy Armstrong: Action feels safer- Mm ... than inaction when you're in a fight or flight state. And so learning how to pause, learning how to do less, learning how to say what you have to say and stop can actually be a bit of a transition to, to create that habit and feel safe doing it.
[00:15:44] Casey O'Roarty: As I listen to you, I'm thinking, "Okay, so I wonder if there's maybe, like, a little mantra or something- Mm ... when we are in those moments," and it's like an internal conversation of, "Okay, I've said my piece. I'm gonna stop. This is enough." Like, just something to help ourselves in those moments- Mm-hmm ... 'cause typically we go on and on when we're activated, and when we're activated, we have less access to that, to, you know, to our own self-awareness.
[00:16:13] And so how do you support the people that you work with on how to do this?
[00:16:18] Amy Armstrong: Y'all are gonna love this. I want everybody listening to think about your own answer to this question. So I believe strongly that we need both a verbal and a somatic mantra. Mm. So I don't know if any of you saw this, right? But I don't know if you noticed it yourself, Casey.
[00:16:36] What you did, you just went like this. You took your finger- Yeah, and I'll just tell
[00:16:39] Casey O'Roarty: listeners, I, like, brought my fingers together, like zip it. Like zip it.
[00:16:43] Amy Armstrong: Like
[00:16:43] Casey O'Roarty: that,
[00:16:43] Amy Armstrong: zip it. And so doing that with your body helps communicate that message And so as a coach, I'm asking you what three words are not only gonna remind you to stop, but remind you of the very good reason to stop, which is strong.
[00:17:04] I'm strong right there.
[00:17:05] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:17:06] Amy Armstrong: Right? So we're connecting to our highest vision, right? No matter how dark we get, we wanna make sure that we're always connecting to the vision, what it is that we want. We wanna maybe feel strong or calm or have fun. Whatever it is, we connect it with a physical movement.
[00:17:23] Maybe it's even holding a necklace that you wear. You touch it. Maybe you keep something in your pocket. I personally have some power boots that I wear- ... when I need my power. Like, if I'm gonna have a tough conversation, I can tell you exactly what boots I'm gonna have on, 'cause they are my power boots. Mm.
[00:17:38] And I wear my boots, and I feel my feet in those boots, and I know I'm good. Nobody's taking my power. So we get to come up with a very short statement that basically says who you are, what you're doing, and that's enough. But everybody gets to come up with their own.
[00:17:53] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. Give me an example. Three words, right?
[00:17:56] Yeah. I mean, I have... Well, I talk about anchor words. I talk about words that kind of-
[00:18:01] Amy Armstrong: Yeah ...
[00:18:01] Casey O'Roarty: bring us back, you know? Yeah. And I invite my clients to walk with that throughout the year. So right now, my anchor words are ease, trust, and connection.
[00:18:11] Amy Armstrong: Ooh, that makes me feel ease just hearing you say it. I have a funny story.
[00:18:17] This woman that was preparing for mediation, she would always describe herself as bubbly, and she realized that bubbly was not gonna get her where she wanted to go in her mediation, so she literally uses the word boring. "I'm boring." Hmm. In other words, she's not here to entertain this guy anymore. Hmm.
[00:18:32] She's been entertaining him for years, and he has always played off of her, the fact that she's so animated, and she would always take the conversation and be so engaging.
[00:18:44] Casey O'Roarty: Hmm.
[00:18:44] Amy Armstrong: And she decided that she wanted to be boring. She was strong and calm and boring.
[00:18:49] Casey O'Roarty: Oh, I love that.
[00:18:50] Amy Armstrong: But somebody else doesn't wanna be called boring.
[00:18:52] Right. But boring was perfect for her because it reminded her that it is no longer her job to entertain this guy.
[00:19:00] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm. Yeah, or coddle.
[00:19:02] Amy Armstrong: Mm-hmm, so whatever the word that is so meaningful for the new expression that is gonna claim, "This is who I am," in a way that really represents your vision of your next chapter.
[00:19:15] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah, I love that. I love
[00:19:17] Amy Armstrong: that. So even if you're walking with a friend who's going through something, and they're, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, talking, talking, talking, talking, talking, even saying, "What word describes the person you wanna be," right? I'm not suggesting we all become coaches on our walks, but just-
[00:19:32] asking a what or how question- That brings that person from the very activated, all over the board, words, words, words, words, words. We know women use words as weapons, right?
[00:19:45] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:19:45] Amy Armstrong: We wanna come down to just what is it I really want here? What is pro-me, not anti-you?
[00:19:52] Casey O'Roarty: Well, I have a shout-out to my friend Denise.
[00:19:55] Yay. Hi, Denise. She is the person that said this to me one day- Hmm ... when I hadn't seen her for a long time, and I said, "Oh, how are you? It's so good to see you." She said... She looked at me for a moment and she said, "You know, I'm fiercely committed and lovingly detached." And- Whoa ... yeah, for sure. I talk about it a lot on the podcast.
[00:20:13] Yeah. It's such a hardcore-
[00:20:16] Amy Armstrong: Yeah ...
[00:20:16] Casey O'Roarty: mantra, and it's so alive for me in this conversation- Yeah ... because we get to be fiercely- Yeah ... committed to ourselves and, you know, lovingly detached from the other person and- So good ... the other person's experience of us.
[00:20:31] Amy Armstrong: Hmm.
[00:20:31] Casey O'Roarty: And it's easy to be fiercely committed to ourselves, I think.
[00:20:35] Yeah, yeah. That's the easy part. But that lovingly detached- Phew ... is hard, especially when our ex or our partner... It's like I said earlier, you know, I can't compartmentalize. I don't disassociate, and the results of that is so much bandwidth being spent. Hmm. And you know, I've moved through this. My daughter had a really hard time when she was a teenager- Mm-hmm
[00:20:58] and things were really dark, and it was really, really challenging to be with it and not be tangled up, to be enmeshed. And I'm wondering, like, how do we, especially early- Yes ... as she kind of came into her own, I mean, it was a process, right? And I see you parents out there who listen because you have kids like that, too.
[00:21:19] Amy Armstrong: Right.
[00:21:20] Casey O'Roarty: There is another side. She's doing fantastic.
[00:21:23] Amy Armstrong: That's so good to hear.
[00:21:25] Casey O'Roarty: Thank you. Like, how do we just be with ourselves- Yeah ... be with this, whatever situation we're moving through, without letting it take up so much space in our heads? I,
[00:21:36] Amy Armstrong: I have an answer for you.
[00:21:38] Casey O'Roarty: Awesome.
[00:21:38] Amy Armstrong: So your daughter's situation, people who are listening, have a mother-in-law or a partner or an ex or a child that feels like an enemy.
[00:21:52] It feels like a fight. It feels like there's a lot of resistance. There's a lot of pushback. There's so much effort there. And I like to reframe whatever it is that is our monster We wanna recognize that this is what's happening now rather than letting it have a, a life of its own as an enemy. So the saying I like is every enemy requires energy.
[00:22:17] Casey O'Roarty: That's a lot of E's, Amy.
[00:22:18] Amy Armstrong: There's a lot of E's. I'm a little corny that way. I do a lot of acronyms. And so when you think about making something an enemy, here's another E, it becomes its own entity. I would say it again. Every enemy- Every enemy requires energy
[00:22:31] Casey O'Roarty: Oh, requires energy. I thought it was another- So CH-E
[00:22:33] E word.
[00:22:35] Amy Armstrong: Expends energy. How's that?
[00:22:37] Casey O'Roarty: Okay. Nice. Quick, yes.
[00:22:41] Amy Armstrong: So when we let something take on that enemy quality, it's so big in our life rather than looking at it as something that's happening now And many things we make enemies out of aren't even happening right now. We think they might, or maybe they were in the past.
[00:23:02] So being thoughtful about where we put our energy allows us to shrink all the effort and attention that we're giving to the problem, and then we of course wanna flip it to the energy of our own power. What can I do? What choices can I make? What's in my control?
[00:23:20] Casey O'Roarty: So in thinking about the practice of that, right?
[00:23:23] Amy Armstrong: Mm. '
[00:23:24] Casey O'Roarty: Cause I know, you know, we as coaches, we're really good at, like, got tools. You know, we got tools. Mm-hmm. And there's that piece of willingness that is so
[00:23:38] Amy Armstrong: powerful. It's like the know do gap. You know it- Yeah ... but you're not doing it.
[00:23:41] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:23:42] Amy Armstrong: So we get to learn new tools, new habits, when we're not in the heat of the moment.
[00:23:48] Yeah. So maybe you link starting your vehicle or pouring your coffee with noticing, "Where's my energy right now?"
[00:23:56] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:23:57] Amy Armstrong: Because we can create a little experiment that we can then choose to turn into a habit when we are regulated.
[00:24:05] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:24:05] Amy Armstrong: That's impossible to do when we're activated.
[00:24:08] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:24:08] Amy Armstrong: So you cannot think you're gonna try something new in the heat of the moment.
[00:24:12] So when your teen is at school or at their swim practice, that is the time to practice how we want our energy to be when we see them next, what we wanna pay attention to at dinner, what sort of power we want to wear in our presence, so that we're never trying to put pressure on ourselves to try something new when we're stressed.
[00:24:38] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:24:39] Amy Armstrong: We can't. We just can't. Yeah,
[00:24:40] Casey O'Roarty: yeah.
[00:24:40] Amy Armstrong: So I like a five-times-a-day check-in for what am I thinking, what am I feeling, where's my energy?
[00:24:46] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
[00:24:47] Amy Armstrong: And then we just start to get so good at making choices quickly because we're aware and we have a read of what we're... You know, we're conscious of where we're putting our attention.
[00:24:59] And are we letting our ex rent space in our head, or do we wanna put our attention- On those priorities or the things that we want the judge to know, or the things that we want to highlight, you know, in our family that day in spite of all the stress that's going on.
[00:25:18] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. And for anyone who's like, "Five times a day?
[00:25:21] How would I possibly remember?" Um-
[00:25:22] Amy Armstrong: Well, do you pee five times a day?
[00:25:25] Casey O'Roarty: Well, I mean- Just do
[00:25:26] Amy Armstrong: it when you pee.
[00:25:27] Casey O'Roarty: I love that. Do it when you pee, people. Do it when you pee, and by the way, unless you live in a cave-
[00:25:33] Amy Armstrong: Yeah ...
[00:25:34] Casey O'Roarty: you know-
[00:25:34] Amy Armstrong: Set a-
[00:25:35] Casey O'Roarty: You've got a cellphone ... yeah. Set some alerts.
[00:25:37] Amy Armstrong: Teach yourself to notice- Set some pings.
[00:25:39] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah ...
[00:25:40] Amy Armstrong: how long have I been thinking about my ex?
[00:25:42] Casey O'Roarty: Right.
[00:25:42] Amy Armstrong: And how long do I really want to think about it? You can even give yourself a time. Okay, from 4:00 to 4:20, I'll think about it.
[00:25:50] Casey O'Roarty: Mm.
[00:25:50] Amy Armstrong: But right now, I got bigger plans.
[00:25:53] Casey O'Roarty: Yes. I love that. And when you realize, ah, shit, I've been thinking about this, first, that's your stepping stone into- Yeah
[00:25:59] something different. So then it can become-
[00:26:02] Amy Armstrong: And you try
[00:26:02] Casey O'Roarty: out ... what am I gonna do instead? Well, another little stepping stone. Playlist. For me, yeah- Put on a- Playlist or even just- ... bingo
[00:26:07] Amy Armstrong: girls ...
[00:26:08] Casey O'Roarty: you know, ease, trust, and, and connection right now. Like, I'm gonna breathe that into my body and then see what opens up.
[00:26:14] But without that awareness piece, we're not going anywhere. We're just, you know- Yeah ... staying kind of in that ruminating. Let's talk about boundaries. I love talking about boundaries. Oh, gosh. Boundaries are such a buzzword, and oftentimes what I'll hear is, "Well, what if they don't respect my boundaries?"
[00:26:32] Like, there's always like, yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, I need boundaries, and people always wanna launch right into, but what if they don't respect the boundaries? Yeah. So first of all-
[00:26:39] Amy Armstrong: It's actually a good question.
[00:26:41] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah, and let's define what a- Yeah ... boundary is, 'cause I think it gets interchanged with limits, with rules, with expectations.
[00:26:50] A
[00:26:50] Amy Armstrong: lot of people mix up boundaries with trying to control somebody else- Yes ... which is a dead end. It makes things- Yeah ... worse.
[00:26:57] Casey O'Roarty: Right.
[00:26:57] Amy Armstrong: So my definition, my working definition- Mm-hmm ... day in and day out about boundaries is what you and I and all your listeners, what are you willing and able to do? An easy one is your son says, uh, "Mom, you pick me up at from work at 5:30."
[00:27:15] And you're like, "Well, I don't get off work till 5:30, so..." A boundary might be, "Oh, I'd love to pick you up. I can be there by 6:00."
[00:27:23] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:27:24] Amy Armstrong: Did you hear my voice be demanding or bitchy? No.
[00:27:27] Casey O'Roarty: No.
[00:27:27] Amy Armstrong: I was like, "Great, I'd love to pick you up. I can get there at 6:00." So I just said, "I'm not picking you up at 5:30," but I said it by saying, "I'd love to pick you up at 6:00."
[00:27:37] Casey O'Roarty: Right.
[00:27:37] Amy Armstrong: And so for my ex, I remember when he came in the house one time unannounced, and I'd kinda had it with that. And I was actually on a call, and by the grace of God, I don't know where this came from, but I just kinda whispered to him, "I'll send him out in a minute." In other words, "Get out of this house."
[00:27:56] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm. "
[00:27:56] Amy Armstrong: I'll send him out in a minute." And so it was like saying my boundary, but what I was gonna do, so there is no not adhering to my boundary because I said it about what I'm gonna do. And then I even work with folks that have had significant domestic abuse- Mm ... domestic violence. And so Even, you know, people are o- often wondering, "Should I do the exchange in my driveway, or should we meet at the police station, or under the lights at the grocery store?"
[00:28:27] And we talk about what is the boundary you would need in order to do the exchange at your house, 'cause it's kinda nice for your child to get to just run out from the house into the next car, and to be able to say, "I'll do an exchange when you're in your vehicle."
[00:28:42] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:28:42] Amy Armstrong: Rather than, "Don't you come up on my porch.
[00:28:44] You're not-" Mm-hmm ... coming in this house." Right? So you just say what you are willing and able to do. So the trick is, make sure you're willing and able to do that thing.
[00:28:52] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm. Right.
[00:28:53] Amy Armstrong: So you're never setting a boundary... I mean, forgive the analogy, but y- you can't teach a dog to come without a leash. You gotta be able to tug on him and make it happen.
[00:29:02] So if you can't make it happen, it's not a boundary. It is you going like this and setting yourself up for frustration.
[00:29:09] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:29:10] Amy Armstrong: You know, you- it's just hot air setting you up for failure.
[00:29:13] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:29:13] Amy Armstrong: So a boundary is what you are willing and able to do in any situation, whether it's a physical boundary, an emotional boundary.
[00:29:21] Hugging. Some people prefer a side hug. I'll do a side hug. Mm-hmm. That's a boundary.
[00:29:26] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:29:27] Amy Armstrong: So, whether it's time, you know, someone asks you to bring six dozen cookies to the school event. "Oh, I can pick up a dozen on my way."
[00:29:35] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:29:36] Amy Armstrong: Right? You still get to be a kind, generous person- Yeah ... to set a boundary.
[00:29:41] Casey O'Roarty: We have a tool in positive discipline called decide what you will do and follow through.
[00:29:45] Amy Armstrong: That's a boundary.
[00:29:46] Casey O'Roarty: Exactly. It also feels like integrity. Like, there's something about that- That's powerful ... that, yeah, that feels like I get to live in integrity when I decide what I will do and then follow through on that. And I think something, you know, when we have situations like a high-conflict co-parenting relationship, or even- Mm
[00:30:08] just, like, welcome to adolescence and parenting adolescents- You're right ... there's so much that is out of our control- Mm ... that we're looking for any illusion that we can find that feels like containment of the situation- Exactly ... containment of the person. And so- Of the moment. Yeah, but that's just not what relationship is about
[00:30:33] Amy Armstrong: No one wants to be controlled.
[00:30:36] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:30:36] Amy Armstrong: And if someone lets you be that person that tells other people what to do all the time, that's even more of a problem. Like-
[00:30:43] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm ...
[00:30:43] Amy Armstrong: we want freedom and independence-
[00:30:46] Casey O'Roarty: Mm ...
[00:30:47] Amy Armstrong: and self-leadership.
[00:30:48] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. Ooh- And- ... self-leadership, I love that ...
[00:30:51] Amy Armstrong: oh, yeah. I mean, ultimately, we want children that can take good care of themselves and make good s- decisions for themselves.
[00:30:59] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:30:59] Amy Armstrong: And so our job is always to let them see themselves that way-
[00:31:04] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah ...
[00:31:05] Amy Armstrong: from, you know, early on, so that we can point out to them how they took care of themself. And setting boundaries, like, you know, "I'll take you to soccer practice when your homework's done," just- Mm-hmm ... helps develop that habit. That- Yep
[00:31:20] there are certain things we do before we do other things.
[00:31:23] Casey O'Roarty: Well, and I think there's room for talk about mutual respect here, too, and I have really come to appreciate... So Positive Discipline is based in Adlerian theory. Are you familiar? Oh,
[00:31:35] Amy Armstrong: yeah. And I love the books that were written about, uh, The Courage to Be Happy.
[00:31:40] Have you read?
[00:31:41] Casey O'Roarty: It's amazing. I have not read The Courage to Be Happy, but I have read The Courage to Be Disliked, and- Yeah, okay- Have you read that one? ...
[00:31:47] Amy Armstrong: Courage to Be Happy is the follow-up.
[00:31:49] Casey O'Roarty: Oh, great. Yeah. Okay, good. Yeah. I need to read the follow-up.
[00:31:51] Amy Armstrong: I love Adler. Yeah.
[00:32:01] Casey O'Roarty: Well, and, and the way that, like what I've learned about mutual respect, and I love the shift from, you know, this idea of when I respect you and you respect me, that's mutual respect. Yeah. That's not. And it's so freeing to realize there's this other lens that you can look through, which is, "I'm gonna respect you and your needs.
[00:32:21] I'm also gonna respect myself and the needs of the situation." That kindness and firmness piece I think is so powerful, I know in parenting. And it's free too because it's freeing because it doesn't depend on the other person. Like, you do you, you be the shit show that you are, okay?
[00:32:41] Amy Armstrong: But you respect yourself enough to say, "I'll continue this conversation when we can keep a moderate tone."
[00:32:48] Casey O'Roarty: Right. "I see that you're having a hard time. I, I see that you're in your stuff. I see that this is your specific situation." Mm-hmm. "I'm also gonna respect myself. I'm gonna say what I'm gonna do and follow through, and we'll come back to this."
[00:33:02] Amy Armstrong: That's the high five moment, for
[00:33:04] Casey O'Roarty: sure. Yes. I think it's so powerful.
[00:33:06] You know, I have not been through a messy divorce. As I'm, yes, moving through some crazy relational stuff right now, it's of a different flavor. But I do wanna talk specifically to the parents who are perhaps in mid-separation or mid-divorce- Yeah ... and are really maybe even in active litigation and- Mm
[00:33:26] feeling like just day after day is depositions and documentation, and there's this acute high alert season that they're moving through. What are some best practices- Yeah ... for them for staying grounded, for staying in their body so that they don't lose themselves or their kids in what feels very much like a fight?
[00:33:50] Amy Armstrong: Actually, any phase of divorce can be so daunting and so overwhelming that it's very easy for it to consume us 24/7. And so going back to self-care, going back to drinking water. Make sure you put it in a great cup that has a great saying on it, right?
[00:34:07] Casey O'Roarty: Love that.
[00:34:08] Amy Armstrong: Make sure that you're treating yourself to remembering who you are.
[00:34:14] Casey O'Roarty: Mm.
[00:34:15] Amy Armstrong: And being clear. So I love how Brene Brown says clear is kind.
[00:34:20] Casey O'Roarty: Yes.
[00:34:21] Amy Armstrong: Clear is power.
[00:34:23] Casey O'Roarty: Mm.
[00:34:24] Amy Armstrong: When you're clear with what your priorities are and who you are, and you're putting it in terms of pro you, not anti the other person. For example, I get the children to school a little bit early every day goes farther in court than saying, "He's been late to school 20 times last quarter."
[00:34:44] Casey O'Roarty: How do we let go of wanting to be like, "This motherfucker"? You know, like how do we
[00:34:50] Amy Armstrong: let go of that? Well, it'll be in your paperwork. Let your paperwork say it.
[00:34:52] Casey O'Roarty: Okay.
[00:34:52] Amy Armstrong: But even your paperwork, you know, when people submit 300 pages for an affidavit instead of 10, they're not making their case better.
[00:35:00] Casey O'Roarty: Mm.
[00:35:01] Amy Armstrong: They're actually looking disorganized.
[00:35:04] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:35:04] Amy Armstrong: So we wanna be clear, and don't ever try to figure this stuff out alone. Mm. I look at all the women in my community that say to me they never would have thought of some of these things that they needed, but thank God they were able- Mm ... to hear and consider a lot of new ideas of how to... Of what boots to wear, of how to show up In a way that you feel like yourself.
[00:35:31] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:35:32] Amy Armstrong: Are you gonna take notes during? How do you know you have the right lawyer, right? You should always have, all of us, every day, a picture of what a good day is gonna look like. We should be able to say, "You know what? If this goes well, this is what's gonna be happening." And then we just keep putting our attention onto those things that we want to be happening.
[00:35:52] Court is a huge disappointment. So many people go to court, they don't ever even get to speak. Mm-hmm. Sometimes they're not even present. You know, their lawyers do all the talking for them in some cases. Family court is so unpredictable, and often very disappointing.
[00:36:07] Casey O'Roarty: Hmm.
[00:36:08] Amy Armstrong: You should always know what you're having for dinner.
[00:36:10] Well, that's me. I always like to know what I'm having for dinner, but know what you're doing afterwards that's gonna feel good, that's gonna be comforting, that's gonna be relaxing. Give yourself real specific tasks and times, rather than just trying to work on it all the time. Yeah. And never lose sight of the real vision that you're looking for.
[00:36:30] Yeah. That vacation with your kids, or that new plan, you know, that's gonna give you the access to your children that you want.
[00:36:40] Casey O'Roarty: Ooh. And what about for the parent that's not necessarily in peak crisis- Mm-hmm ... but they've got kind of that low-grade, ongoing kind of hard-
[00:36:50] Amy Armstrong: Yeah ...
[00:36:50] Casey O'Roarty: with their ex, and they're trying to keep what's best for their kids at the center, and a big piece of that is protecting their kids from the conflict without pretending everything's fine, because- Yeah
[00:37:05] kids feel the truth.
[00:37:07] Amy Armstrong: I really blew it with my middle daughter. She's 35 now, but she to this day will remind me, "Don't fake it, Mom." Mm-hmm. You know, "You don't have to pretend this is okay." And the idea is that we wanna be positive, but what helps us be positive is to tell our kids, "Yeah, it is hard right now, and I'll figure it out."
[00:37:27] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:37:28] Amy Armstrong: So we don't wanna tell our kids that something's hard, because we don't want them to worry or them to feel like they have to take it on. So our job is to tell the truth about how we're doing. "Hey, I- I'm gonna call it an early night tonight. I need to go to bed early," or, "I need to go for a walk with my friend."
[00:37:45] So we can be honest about hard times, and let the child know, "I'll figure it out." Yeah. "I have great resources. I'm smart. I got it. I've got this." Yeah. "I'll let you know what I figure out."
[00:37:57] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. Hmm. I mean, I kind of feel like what's hard for me is the o- is the oppos- Like, I'm not good at pretending. Um, I wish I was.
[00:38:07] Like, that- Well- Put that up there with compartmentalizing and disassociating. Just not good at it.
[00:38:12] Amy Armstrong: So I, what I would call that is direct.
[00:38:16] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:38:17] Amy Armstrong: There's nothing wrong with direct, as long as we're not putting responsibility on somebody else- For sure ... that belongs to
[00:38:23] Casey O'Roarty: us. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:38:24] Amy Armstrong: But people probably love that about you, that you're direct.
[00:38:27] You're easy to read. They don't have to guess.
[00:38:29] Casey O'Roarty: Right. But I think- Yeah ... with our kids, you know, with our kids, what I'm hearing you say- Yeah ... which I can-
[00:38:34] Amy Armstrong: Yeah ...
[00:38:34] Casey O'Roarty: which I believe as well, is that peace around, you know, it's all gonna work out however it does. I'm okay.
[00:38:41] Amy Armstrong: It might take me a hot minute. Mm-hmm.
[00:38:42] Casey O'Roarty: I'm okay.
[00:38:42] Especially when, like in other conversations that I'm having here on the show, we're talking about things like wanting our kids to come to us.
[00:38:50] Amy Armstrong: Right.
[00:38:50] Casey O'Roarty: And one of the reasons that they don't is because they don't think that we can handle whatever it is that they're coming to us with. So I think there's layers to that messaging- Mm
[00:39:00] around, yeah, things are really hard, and I can handle it. I'm in it. I'm taking care of myself. You see me taking care of myself. I think that not only is useful in the, like, in the context of the relationship with the other parent, but also just as a general, like, "I'm grounded, I'm solid," you know? And I think there is something really powerful.
[00:39:22] I can't imagine growing up in a household where what we're seeing is like adults who have, there's no c- problems, and there's, you know, everything's fine. And like- Right. Mm-hmm ... how do you learn how to be in the messiness of relationship if you don't observe it- And so, you know, there's that piece ... own it,
[00:39:40] Amy Armstrong: and do the work of getting clear.
[00:39:42] What am I upset about? Mm-hmm. What is it that I really want in its place, and what choices can I make today on that path? Yeah. Plus, not ever thinking you have to do it alone. I don't want any listener- Yeah ... to think, "Oh, gosh, I should be doing this, and I should be doing this." I'm like, "No way. Do this with us.
[00:40:01] Do it- Yeah ... with a group. Do it with other people that totally get it and are doing the work, too, so that you literally can let some of that joy seep in- Yeah ... while you're doing the hard work."
[00:40:14] Casey O'Roarty: This is off-script here, but, like, I have been in, I've worked with clients who have a teenager-
[00:40:20] Amy Armstrong: Mm-hmm ...
[00:40:21] Casey O'Roarty: who has decided that they no longer wanna go to- Yeah
[00:40:24] mom's house, or they no longer wanna go to dad's house. What is the... Even though the custody, you know, the, the parenting plan looks a certain way, how should parents navigate that? What's the best way- Hmm ... to navigate that?
[00:40:36] Amy Armstrong: I do a lot of consults on that exact topic, because of course it depends, and there is such a trend of using allegations of parental alienation.
[00:40:48] If a child doesn't wanna go, the other parent might say, "Oh, that parent is talking bad about me- Right ... or, you know, trying to make that child loyal to them." And so we have to look at, first of all, what are the agreements? Because sometimes a parent will see, yeah, of course, she's a 16-year-old girl. Of course, she wants to do girl things with her mom, and he doesn't make a big deal of it.
[00:41:10] Others are like, "Oh, if I miss one minute of my time, I'm gonna go back to court." So you have to know who you're dealing with. You have to know how much of a conversation you can have authentically.
[00:41:22] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:41:23] Amy Armstrong: And then you have to have some hard conversations with your kid to say, "Of course you're going to your dad's.
[00:41:28] You can handle that your new stepmom isn't your favorite. You can handle that." You know, so there's a message of you can do hard things. There's always this eye for safety. If anything funky's going on over there that is not cool, that is not safe, that is a whole nother issue that we take on. And then you're really navigating the nuance.
[00:41:50] I mean, it's no different than if your child is on a sports team and the coach is too harsh. Where's the line between, "Hey, you can do hard things," or, "Hey, sweetie, we're gonna put you on a different team"? When a friend is being ugly to them, when a teacher is being a certain way, too easy or too hard, right?
[00:42:09] We're always making these decisions. It's no different. When your child doesn't wanna follow the parenting schedule, we've gotta weigh out what is it we want them to learn, what's the real message here, what can they handle- Mm-hmm ... what's safe for them. There's just, you know, really 10 or 12 big questions that need to be addressed before I would ever give- Yeah
[00:42:28] someone a conclusion.
[00:42:29] Casey O'Roarty: Well, it's interesting, as I- I'm realizing, I was that teenager.
[00:42:32] Amy Armstrong: Mm.
[00:42:32] Casey O'Roarty: At 15, I moved in, out of my mom's house and into my dad's house. Into
[00:42:36] Amy Armstrong: dad's. And- And was that okay with Mom?
[00:42:38] Casey O'Roarty: No.
[00:42:39] Amy Armstrong: No.
[00:42:39] Casey O'Roarty: I mean, I went, and- Yep ... no, it was not. And it, you know, it was the beginning of, like, a 10-year estrangement.
[00:42:46] And, you know-
[00:42:47] Amy Armstrong: So that was a big journey for you.
[00:42:48] Casey O'Roarty: It was a huge journey for me, and I was- Mm-hmm ... and a- again, like, I s- you know, not handled great by the adults in the room. The right move for me. So I wonder, like, parenting plans are created by the parents. Like, when is a teenager allowed to have a voice in that whole- Right,
[00:43:10] Amy Armstrong: this varies by state.
[00:43:11] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah, okay.
[00:43:12] Amy Armstrong: So every child should have a voice, but not a choice. So-
[00:43:16] Casey O'Roarty: Okay ...
[00:43:17] Amy Armstrong: if the adults are not gonna let the child choose, then we have to be very clear to the child that the adults are making the choices, but we wanna hear what do you like about Mom's and what do you like about Dad's?
[00:43:27] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:43:28] Amy Armstrong: And so in some places, even a 17-and-a-half-year-old is not allowed to make their own choice.
[00:43:34] Wow. And in some places, once they get to 12 or 13, whatever they say is fine.
[00:43:40] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:43:40] Amy Armstrong: Interesting. But every state is different.
[00:43:42] Casey O'Roarty: Okay. And even within states- So
[00:43:43] Amy Armstrong: something to find
[00:43:43] Casey O'Roarty: out,
[00:43:44] Amy Armstrong: yes,
[00:43:44] Casey O'Roarty: for parents ...
[00:43:44] Amy Armstrong: different jurisdictions are different. So my thought, I love this conversation. My main thought about it, matter of fact, I'm doing a big training on this for professionals next week, is we still have to go back to the parent and say, "What's going on for you-
[00:44:00] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm
[00:44:00] Amy Armstrong: in this?"
[00:44:01] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:44:01] Amy Armstrong: And help that parent make sure they are meeting their own needs well.
[00:44:08] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:44:08] Amy Armstrong: Because it is so easy to slip into saying something's best for the child that's going to comfort the parent. Yeah. So that's the work that I encourage everyone to do. Get the right help. We've got... We know what to do now.
[00:44:24] This is not a mystery anymore. Your parents may not have even had resources if they wanted 'em.
[00:44:29] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah, it was the '
[00:44:29] Amy Armstrong: 80s. But it's out now. We know, we know a lot about how to work with these complex- Yeah ... families. And- Getting the right person who will ask the right questions, that will help you discern what your needs are, what your child's needs are, then you start thinking about what are some options for this child to have their voice heard more.
[00:44:54] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. And it's so interesting, right? 'Cause we're talking, I'm talking about teenagers specifically, right? Yeah, yeah. And teenagers are just so wired for autonomy.
[00:45:04] Amy Armstrong: We want them to have opinions.
[00:45:05] Casey O'Roarty: I know. And yet there's this... I can see how this container is so- Mm-hmm ... constrictive for a kiddo. It's that
[00:45:15] Amy Armstrong: intersection of what the law says-
[00:45:17] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah
[00:45:18] Amy Armstrong: and what good mental health looks like.
[00:45:20] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. Yeah, yeah,
[00:45:21] Amy Armstrong: yeah. And it is an intersection that is very complex, so-
[00:45:24] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah ...
[00:45:24] Amy Armstrong: I'm really, really happy for your listeners to be hearing that this nightmare of not knowing what to do and, and just going back and forth and back and forth on decisions, it can really end.
[00:45:37] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. Well, and you have a new book. You have a new book, yes?
[00:45:41] Amy Armstrong: I do. I've actually been writing it for a long time, and it's this whole idea. It's called Boundary Basics- Mm-hmm ... and it's practical steps to keep your cool and resolve conflict, and it's coming out this fall, so I'm very excited about that. And I also put something together for your listeners-
[00:45:59] 'cause I knew what we were gonna be talking about today. Ooh. I know. I saw what we were gonna be talking about, so I put together, for this audience, I put together a little kit. One is ideas of communication that co-parents can use that are... It's possible, like, scripts, but the idea behind it is that you take a look at these scripts and see which ones have energy for you.
[00:46:25] So it's a real- Love it ... it's an exercise to start to see, "Oh, yeah, this is me. This is not." Mm-hmm. That's really important. The second is your five-minute nervous system reset so that you can learn to access that sense of safety in your body when things are going cuckoo. And then the third one is your exact question about boundaries when they're going wrong- Mm-hmm
[00:46:46] and how you can look at your boundary and figure out where it's not working and get it right. And I want all of your listeners to have this. It's a lot, but I think they're gonna really benefit- Thank you ... from having some solid takeaways here, and I'm just gonna have it as a link for you in your show notes.
[00:47:06] Awesome.
[00:47:06] Casey O'Roarty: Oh my gosh, Amy, thank you so much.
[00:47:10] Amy Armstrong: What a gift. I wanna offer up my community. I just am, would be delighted to talk to anyone about- Yeah ... you know, being part of really getting the right help so that that joyful courage leads the way.
[00:47:22] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. Well, and I mean, thank you so much for your commitment to this work- Mm
[00:47:27] because it's-
[00:47:27] Amy Armstrong: Absolutely ...
[00:47:28] Casey O'Roarty: you know, it's a niche that there are so many people That, you know, so many people need it, you know? Exactly. So many people- Mm-hmm ... or don't even realize, you know, that they're needing, and hopefully this show has shown up for them at just the right time for them to realize, like, oh, there is somebody to hold your hand through what you're moving through, through what you're trying to- Exactly
[00:47:49] figure out, where- whatever part of the path you're on, you know, Amy's here as a really powerful resource. So thank you so much for making that. You're welcome. Thank you. And yes, I will definitely make sure the link's in the show notes. Amy, I know that you've listened to a few of my episodes- Yeah ... so you know what I like to end with.
[00:48:08] Oh,
[00:48:08] Amy Armstrong: yeah.
[00:48:09] Casey O'Roarty: What does joyful courage mean to you in the context of your work?
[00:48:13] Amy Armstrong: Joyful courage is our birthright, and nobody gets to take away. Nobody gets to take it away from us. So if we think about joyful courage, that's our power, that's ours, and nobody gets to touch it.
[00:48:27] Casey O'Roarty: Mm, love it. Mm-hmm. Where can people find you and follow your work, and find your book?
[00:48:31] Amy Armstrong: Yeah, sure. So that download is gonna have all my information in it, and my company is called The Center for Family Resolution, website by the same name.
[00:48:41] Casey O'Roarty: Great, and do you have social media? Is there places- Oh, yeah ... okay, great.
[00:48:44] Amy Armstrong: And- Yeah. I do a lot of co-parenting on TikTok. Okay. I am Amy Armstrong Conflict Free, and all over LinkedIn and Instagram and Threads, yeah.
[00:48:53] Casey O'Roarty: Okay. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for spending time with me today. Ooh. This was
[00:48:57] Amy Armstrong: super useful. Thank you, Casey. Delightful to talk with you. And thank you for all your good work. You go above and beyond for your listeners, and I, I know they appreciate you. Thanks, Amy
[00:49:13] Casey O'Roarty: Thank you so much for listening. Thank you to my Sproutable partners, Julietta and Alana. Thank you, Danielle, for supporting with the show notes, as well as Chris Mann and the team at Podshaper for all the support with getting the show out there and making it sound good. As I mentioned, sharing is caring.
[00:49:30] If you're willing to pass on this episode to others or take a few minutes to rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, it helps other parents find this useful content. Be sure to check out what we have going on for parents of kids of all ages, and sign up for our newsletter to stay connected at besproutable.com.
[00:49:51] I see you doing all the things. I believe in you. See you next time