Eps 676: Amber Traina, Positive Discipline Today

“The journey can be messy, and so it does take courage. And I think the joyful courage is really leaning into the journey, not just the destination.”
– Amber Traina

Resources

• Positive Discipline, second edition (Sept 8, 2026), by Jane Nelsen
• Amber Traina: ambertraina.com
• Keeping the Joy in Relationships
• The Anxious Generation by Jonathan Haidt
• The TED Talk: The Battle for Your Time, Exposing the Hidden Cost of Social Media
• Teaching Parenting the Positive Discipline Way (TP) certification
• Making Screen Agreements guide: https://www.besproutable.com/screen-agreements/

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Transcription

[00:00:00] Casey O'Roarty: Welcome, welcome. Welcome to the Joyful Courage Podcast. This is a place where parents of tweens and teens come to find inspiration, information, and encouragement in the messy terrain of adolescence. This season of parenting is no joke, and while the details of what we're all moving through might be slightly different, we are indeed having a very collective experience.
[00:00:30] This is a space where we center building relationship, nurturing life skills, and leaning into our own personal growth, and man, the opportunities abound, right? My name is Casey O'Rourty. I am a parent coach, positive discipline lead trainer, and captain of the adolescent ship over at Sproutable. I'm also a speaker and a published author.
[00:00:53] I've been working with parents and families for over 20 years and continue to navigate my own experience of being a mom with my two young adult kids. I'm so honored that you're here and listening. Please give back to the podcast by sharing it with friends or on social media. Rate and review us on Apple or Spotify.
[00:01:13] Word of mouth is how we grow. Thank you so, so much. Enjoy the show.
[00:01:23] All right, listeners. Welcome back. Welcome back. I'm gonna start off today's show by inviting you to think about all the parenting advice you've gathered over the years. Some of it, I'm guessing you have quietly let go of because it didn't hold up once your kids hit the tween and teen years. Now, think about the piece that has stayed with you, the pieces that have stayed with you, the foundational lessons or mantras that have stayed with you every stage, and notice the relief in your body when something still is useful after so much has changed as you've moved into a different stage, a different season.
[00:02:03] And here's why I'm bringing this up. You all know that I love Positive Discipline. I talk about Positive Discipline all the time on this show. It's the philosophy that I stand on, and you know, PD first came out in 1981. Is that right? I asked my guest, right? It came out in 1981? Okay, great. Yes. And 45 years later, it's still the book that so many parents are reaching for.
[00:02:27] So what's held up? What has technology, smartphones, social media, asked us to reconsider as parents? Well, today's guest is Amber Traina. She is the granddaughter of Dr. Jane Nelsen, who wrote the book, and she's worked alongside of Jane to bring a brand-new edition of Positive Discipline, which includes an updated chapter on technology, as well as other updates, into the hands of parents.
[00:02:56] And as you listen today, I want you to really ask yourself which parts of your own parenting you wanna continue to carry forward for the next 45 years. What's your legacy? Amber Traina is a certified positive discipline parent educator, a parent and couples coach, and co-author of Keeping the Joy in Relationships.
[00:03:16] She is a wife and mom of three. Like I mentioned, she is the eldest granddaughter of Jane Nelsen, and supported the revision of Positive Discipline the book, which is in its second edition, and she has worked hard to bring these tools to families through workshops and one-on-one coaching. Amber, I'm so glad to have you.
[00:03:39] Welcome to the podcast.
[00:03:41] Amber Traina: Thank you, Casey. I'm so happy to be here.
[00:03:43] Casey O'Roarty: I know, and I'm so glad to remember that we did in fact share a cab. Yeah, we did. We have mingled in life outside of this virtual world. So, okay, Amber, most of us found Positive Discipline, I know I can speak for myself, when we were already feeling a little bit desperate as parents.
[00:04:03] We were wondering, there's, I know for me, there's gotta be a better way of navigating life with these two, at the time, young, young children. You, however, I'm assuming, grew up with it at the dinner table. When did it stop being your grandma's work and start becoming something that you knew existed in your own life?
[00:04:25] Amber Traina: So that is an interesting question. A lot of people do assume that I grew up with Positive Discipline at home. Um, but my grandmother had seven children.
[00:04:33] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:04:34] Amber Traina: And she calls them her before, during, and after Positive Discipline children. My dad happens to be her oldest, and so he was one of two before Positive Discipline children.
[00:04:46] So he certainly was exposed to Positive Discipline, you know, later in his life. So I didn't necessarily grow up in what you would call a Positive Discipline home. Mm-hmm. There were certainly seeds sprinkled in there. I had a, a really close relationship with my grandmother, so I, I had that exposure. Um, I think I remember she came to my high school and did a Positive Discipline workshop at my high school when I was in high school, and of course-
[00:05:15] I was like, "Oh, this is so embarrassing." And I do remember I read her book Serenity when I was in high school, 'cause I think she was looking for feedback at that point. She was doing a revision or, or something. Um, but it really wasn't until I had my own kids. Mm-hmm. It was after my first was born, and kind of like you said, you, you, you thought there might be a different way out there, like, I knew there was a different way, but I didn't quite have all of the information.
[00:05:41] I had these seeds that I had encountered over the years, and so it was sort of the stars aligning. My grandmother was going to be on the East Coast teaching, uh, a TP workshop. She was teaching in Connecticut, and I was in New York. Mm-hmm. And I was like, "She's never on the East Coast teaching. I ha- I have to go take this workshop."
[00:06:01] Mm-hmm. So I actually got certified to facilitate the TP by my grandmother- That's amazing ... uh, after my first was born. Yeah.
[00:06:08] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:06:09] Amber Traina: And so then I
[00:06:09] Casey O'Roarty: started- And everybody, the TP is the Teaching Parenting workshop, so that's our parent educator training, certification training. Yeah. Go on.
[00:06:16] Amber Traina: Thank you. So I, I, obviously I brought it into my, my own home for my children, uh, and then I started facilitating workshops as well.
[00:06:25] And as you know, the more you facilitate, the better parent you become, because you get to practice alongside everybody else. And so it was just this... I fell in love with the work. I, I- Mm-hmm ... it, it was feeding me as a parent, as a human, and I loved what it was able to offer other parents, so that's how I ended up with Positive Discipline.
[00:06:43] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. I love that you said it is feeding you as a parent and as a human. You know, I feel like Positive Discipline is packaged as this parenting philosophy, but really, it's a humaning philosophy. It's how we're relating it to ourselves, to our children, to our partners, to the world. It's not surprising that the work has filtered into couples with keeping the joy in marriage, with in the workplace.
[00:07:12] You all, there's actually, like, a whole training called Empowering People in the Workplace that is based on the tools that you learn in a parenting class. So I love that you mention that, 'cause I talk a lot about that here on the podcast. It feels more like a lifestyle than it does a program. Would you agree?
[00:07:31] Amber Traina: Absolutely.
[00:07:31] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:07:32] Amber Traina: Absolutely. And I think most people come to positive discipline when they're having some kind of challenge- Mm-hmm ... because they're looking for something else. They're not happy with the way that they're approaching it. They're looking for more tools. Um, and what... I, I have not met a single person who uses positive discipline, loves positive discipline, who doesn't also say it's them that it affected most.
[00:07:56] Yeah. Yeah.
[00:07:57] Casey O'Roarty: Totally. I have that with people. You know, I just finished a week-long immersion program, and so it was, like, kind of high-intensity, five days, five calls, and by day three, it was, "Oh, this is actually more about me." And then in the six-week class, it's week two and week three where parents are like, "Oh, this is about me."
[00:08:19] And I love that, 'cause there's so much more power that we have when we know that we are the ones that get to shift to create a new dynamic in our relationship with our kids. Remind me how old your kids are. You have young kids, right? I
[00:08:33] Amber Traina: have almost
[00:08:34] Casey O'Roarty: 13- Or school age. Oh, okay ... 10, and
[00:08:36] Amber Traina: four.
[00:08:37] Casey O'Roarty: Okay, okay. So adolescence has arrived.
[00:08:40] Amber Traina: It has.
[00:08:41] Casey O'Roarty: Adolescence has arrived, and you know that this, my audience is parents of middle school, high school, and beyond. Um, and for, and the reason that I niched into, 'cause I used to kinda talk about parenting across the ages, but once I got to the teen years with my own kids, I was like, "Oh my God." I even said to your grandmother, I said, "I felt duped.
[00:09:05] I felt duped by you," because I got to the teen years and I was like, "What the hell does this look like during adolescence?" She's always been such a huge supporter of me and of my work, and it is messy, and also, when we come back to the principles, so useful. So useful. Speaking of the principles, Jane, so I said she first published Positive Discipline in 1981, and now it's 45 years later and a new edition.
[00:09:34] What made now the time for a revision, and what is new in this version?
[00:09:41] Amber Traina: Yes. Um, I think it was a couple of different factors coming together that really pulled this new edition together. One was the publisher was interested in having a new edition. The last revision of Positive Discipline was in 2006.
[00:09:56] Okay. So 20 years ago. Um-
[00:09:59] Casey O'Roarty: Oh, God, it's so weird that you said 2006 and then that that was 20 years ago.
[00:10:03] Amber Traina: I know. Sorry. It doesn't feel that
[00:10:04] Casey O'Roarty: long. Okay, go on. That's so weird.
[00:10:08] Amber Traina: So the publisher was ready and interested, um, and as I mentioned, Jane had already been revising it because she's a lifelong learner and constantly revising and working and editing.
[00:10:22] Um, so she already had that, but she was feeling a little bit overwhelmed by the tech requirements of revising a book. And so at 89 years old, um, she was feeling a little bit Nervous about handling all of the files back and forth- Mm-hmm ... and the tracking changes and making sure that, you know, things were consistent throughout.
[00:10:45] And so she was a little bit hesitant about taking the project on, and she was telling me about it on the phone, and I said, "Well, Grandma, how can I help you? Like, what can I do to support you? Because this is too important." Mm-hmm. "Your work is too important to not have a new edition out. All of the people who already work with Positive Discipline need it, and all of the people who don't work with Positive Discipline need it.
[00:11:10] So we need the, we need the visibility. Positive Discipline has to be out there in the world." And so she said, "Okay, well, if you're willing to jump on the project and h- and help me with that piece, then, you know, we can do it." Um, I think that part of her motivation to do it was there's, there's new research out, coming out all the time, obviously, but new child development research and new brain research that really supports what Positive Discipline has already been teaching and- Mm-hmm
[00:11:39] and what Alfred Adler and Rudolf Dreikurs were already, had already developed. But I think having the new research helps parents digest the information. Yeah. It also helps them relate it to their own lives and what they're seeing, and so that was really important. In terms of, of the new emphasis in the book, uh, Jane really wanted to emphasize the kind and firm piece of Positive Discipline- Yeah
[00:12:06] so much so that it actually, the subtitle of the book was changed, and now it is The Kind and Firm Approach to Raising Capable, Resilient Kids Without Punishment or Rewards. Mm-hmm. So she put it right there front and center because it is so important, and I think that came from working with people, you know, as I mentioned to you earlier, and seeing what are parents taking away from the work?
[00:12:31] What is it that continues to be a challenge? And so- Yeah ... what can we emphasize to make sure that they're getting what they need? And the kind and firm piece, um, is just so critical. Yeah. So in addition to that, I would say the other piece that she really wanted to emphasize was focusing on solutions.
[00:12:49] Mm-hmm. You know, and as you know, that's what really allows parents to step away from punishment-
[00:12:53] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah ...
[00:12:54] Amber Traina: as is stepping into how can we focus on solutions? Yeah. Uh, and it's such a gift to kids. So those two were really huge, uh, pieces for her. The, the technology piece, actually, the chapter on technology came a little bit later.
[00:13:09] Um, she really wanted to address technology. I think Jonathan Haidt's work with The Anxious Generation, all of the research that he published, um, it really sparked a fire in Jane to want to address it, but at the same time, it felt a little bleak to her.
[00:13:27] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. Super bleak. Okay, thank you for that. Like, thank you for all the information on how shitty this situation is, and what do we do?
[00:13:38] Amber Traina: What do we do about it? Yeah. And if it's so bad, and it's not going anywhere, then really it feels like an uphill battle. Yeah. What can we do about it?
[00:13:46] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:13:46] Amber Traina: And for her, it was the, the addiction piece of it.
[00:13:49] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:13:49] Amber Traina: The addicting part of technology. Um, and, and not quite knowing, you know, how to address that piece of it.
[00:13:57] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:13:58] Amber Traina: Yeah. Uh, because addiction is a really tricky thing.
[00:14:00] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah, for sure.
[00:14:01] Amber Traina: And so we, we had conversations about it, and she, she kept emphasizing that she really wanted to address it, but she just wasn't sure, um, how, and I encouraged her. I said, "You know, Grandma, I am dealing with technology with my kiddos- Mm-hmm
[00:14:15] and in my, in my house, and positive discipline tools h- have been everything in terms of helping me, you know, be firm with my limits, but, you know, also, you know, check in and see where my kids are coming from and be curious and maintain a good relationship with them, a respectful relationship with them, while we're also battling..."
[00:14:37] I mean, this is a battle with technology because we're- Yeah ... they're inundated with it. We're inundated with it. It's, it's just everywhere. But I said, "Parents need tools, and you have tools, and I can tell you they are effective." Mm-hmm. And so she agreed that if I would write it with her, we could put a new chapter in about navigating technology.
[00:14:58] Yeah. So that's how
[00:14:59] Casey O'Roarty: that
[00:14:59] Amber Traina: came about.
[00:14:59] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. God, and this isn't... You guys, this is not gonna be a whole show about technology, but I have some things to say, including, you know, you hear... I, I... It's like something that's really frustrating to me, Amber, is how focused the conversation is on, almost with disdain, how desperate kids are for phones.
[00:15:22] And lately, I've been talking about, well, these, especially the kids, like your age kids, 10s, 11s, 12s- They came into the world and every person around them is looking at a screen way more often than not. And the idea that they wouldn't get to an age and say, "Where's mine?" Is bonkers to me. But we keep this conversation around how, like, oh, these kids are so entitled, they think they get X, Y, Z.
[00:15:53] Or older kids, where it's like they're obsessed with their phones, and we are all obsessed with our phones. We are all using our phones in a problematic way. So the idea that it's a kid problem and not a, a much bigger societal problem just is, like, crazy to me. I even got a pitch just today from somebody who wrote a book, five rules, something about, like, five rules for your screen, and it is not a parenting book.
[00:16:23] It is a, "Hey, everyone, here's five rules." I have an app on my phone that shuts down certain things at certain times of day, because I need that, right? And so this is ... I, I applaud Jane for her, like, trepidation around this topic, because it is big and it's messy, and it's easy to write something out on paper.
[00:16:48] Really tough to walk it in conflict with a 15-year-old or a 16-year-old. I mean, it's just, it's tough. And there are useful tools, and even, I just wanna say this out loud, even when we are using the tools, people are still disappointed. People have an emotional experience around it. It can still feel very messy.
[00:17:09] That doesn't necessarily, this is for my listeners, it doesn't necessarily mean that you're not doing it right or you're not, you know, good enough It's messy. It is messy.
[00:17:22] Amber Traina: Absolutely. 100% I agree. Uh, and going back to what you were saying about how could these kids not expect, how could they not want-
[00:17:32] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah
[00:17:33] Amber Traina: screens and technology have replaced so much connection in our world, and we're all so wired to seek that out, and so they see everybody around them connecting through technology. Why would they not want to also be-
[00:17:46] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah ...
[00:17:46] Amber Traina: connected? And it is messy, and, and, and I love that you, you point out that just because it's not easy, just because it's messy, doesn't mean you're not getting where you want to go.
[00:17:59] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:18:00] Amber Traina: A- and I think that very often for parents, they're s- they're ini- parents are inundated with recommendations around technology, and recommendations about parenting, and, and just recommendations in general. There's so much information out there. It can feel really overwhelming, but when you dial it down, and I think this is where Positive Discipline really has something to offer parents, is that when you can dial it down to who you are as a parent, who your child is as an individual, and where you want your child to go, where you want your relationship to go, when you can build that roadmap, and Positive Discipline really helps parents do that, then you can check in with it and say, you know, "Am I on my course?
[00:18:41] Am I on our course? Are we on course?"
[00:18:43] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:18:44] Amber Traina: And you can navigate it through the nuances of who your child is, what the particular situation at hand might be. It doesn't necessarily make it easy, but it keeps you going in the direction that you really wanna be going and the w- way that you wanna your child to be growing.
[00:19:09] Casey O'Roarty: And you mentioned kindness and firmness, that now it is in the subtitle of the book, and I love kindness and firmness. And I think, you know, that we've had such a hard pendulum s- shift from the 1950s authoritarian, do as I say. Many of us ... I'm Gen X, you know, many of us lived in households where, you know, it was the consequences and the rewards that were used to kind of keep us on the path, and, you know, because I said so was a thing that we all kind of...
[00:19:38] I mean, I was pre- I was kind of a get along, go along to get along girl for the most part, so I kind of rolled with it. And now we've swung from authoritarian into really a lot of permissive parenting in the costume of, you know, we call it gentle parenting, we call it positive parenting, and I'm always so interested, and I appreciate like, first of all, I don't love the phrase, I don't love gentle.
[00:20:07] It just feels wobbly and it feels meek. I don't love that. Even though I love gentleness. Anyway, I have an issue with that. But what I think sets positive discipline apart from that hard pendulum swing is the firmness, the kind and firm. And the word and, like both and at the same time, it's so, it can be so tricky to land that as a facilitator because there aren't great models, and so we're kind of...
[00:20:42] I m- I remember a mentor of mine in positive discipline, Jody McVitty, said, "This is radical work. What we're inviting people to do is radical work." But the firmness gets to exist, right? Where do you see positive discipline and this whole, like, gentle parenting, positive parenting overlapping, and where are they, where is it different?
[00:21:05] What makes positive discipline like its own thing?
[00:21:09] Amber Traina: I think that is a really loaded question. And an important one.
[00:21:15] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:21:15] Amber Traina: Uh, and I think
[00:21:16] Casey O'Roarty: it's- And we don't have to have the exact answer. It's, let's just play around with it, you know?
[00:21:19] Amber Traina: Well, yeah. I think the distinction, as you say, the kind and firm at the same time, but that's really hard.
[00:21:29] I mean, h- I think part of the confusion and why people often associate positive discipline with positive parenting is that they confuse niceness with kindness.
[00:21:46] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:21:46] Amber Traina: And they're not the same thing. Um, because kindness- Involves respect. Mm-hmm. And being nice sort of involves avoiding negative things- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm
[00:22:01] or not feeling them. Surface-y.
[00:22:02] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:22:03] Amber Traina: Surface, and not feeling sometimes the hard feelings, or not saying the hard things sometimes. And, but when you boil it down, it's r- not really nice to, and I say this to my kids all the time, "You know, you can be kind to your friend, but if you go and let your friend do something that's not good for them, that's not kind."
[00:22:20] Mm-hmm. You might feel like it's the nice thing to do because you don't wanna hurt their feelings, or you don't want to, you know, step in, but it's not kind to let them do something that might be bad for them. And so I think when we apply that to, to parenting, you know, a lot of what our kids grow from is the experiences that we allow them to have.
[00:22:41] Mm-hmm. And they need to be, they need to be able to make mistakes, and they need to know what boundaries are, and they need to know, you know, what firm limits look like. And sometimes that doesn't always feel nice.
[00:22:52] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:22:53] Amber Traina: And so going back to what you were saying about, you know, navigating the technology, but really any of the challenging parenting moments where it feels really messy, that doesn't mean that growth isn't coming from it.
[00:23:05] It just doesn't feel nice at the time. And so I think that, you know, we've come a long way. Gentle parenting, the positive of it is that, you know, the experience of the child is now considered. Mm-hmm. We are, we are seeing that the way that we interact with our children affects them, and that it does matter.
[00:23:24] But I think where it goes too far is that the, the limits and the firm boundaries and the respect for the situation, and sometimes the respect for ourselves in the situation, gets lost.
[00:23:33] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:23:34] Amber Traina: And, and that's where kind and firm at the same time, it preserves the respect for the child, while also preserving the respect for the situation at hand, um, and for, and for us as the parent.
[00:23:45] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:23:45] Amber Traina: Yeah. And they
[00:23:46] Casey O'Roarty: learn
[00:23:46] Amber Traina: from that.
[00:23:46] Casey O'Roarty: I definitely see that as well. It's like the swing into really centering the child- To a point where it actually causes damage, 'cause they're not growing. They're not experiencing the rub of disappointment and, and embar- not embarrassed. I mean, we don't ... Well, yeah. I mean, yeah.
[00:24:08] W- whatever life throws at- the tension of life, when we buffer that out and so they're not experiencing it, we're really doing a disservice, 'cause life is ... There's a lot of tension as you move through and into adulthood. So I appreciate, you know, what I really loved alongside of my positive discipline journey, and you kind of, when you said learning about being a parent and being a human, I feel like when I was trained in positive discipline in 2007, that was the start of my personal growth journey, and, like, my interest in my own growth as a human being, and being curious about myself, and why is this important to me, and why do I believe this, and is there more expanded ways of thinking about this, you know?
[00:24:54] I tell y- I tell parents, like, what you didn't realize you were signing up for when you had kids was a lifelong personal growth and development workshop.
[00:25:01] Amber Traina: Absolutely.
[00:25:02] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. You can either be on board and, like, understand the assignment, or be in resistance to it, but that sounds miserable, right? But I love Kind and Firm because it was the first time in my life that the whole concept of both and really started to come up, and I think that's it, right?
[00:25:21] Like you said- In positive discipline, we really work on considering the experience of the child alongside the experience of the situation and our experience. I love the redefine of mutual respect, right? And I talk about this on the podcast a lot. Um, mutual respect, not, "Well, when you respect me, I'll respect you," but instead kindness, meaning, "I respect that you're having an experience, that it's real for you, it's valid for you.
[00:25:54] I'm not gonna be a dick about it, and I'm gonna respect myself and the situation." And that, in the teen years, right, as they move into teen brain development and their emotions are really swinging hard and, you know, they're trying to make sense of their world and they're individuating, and it can get loud, and it can get...
[00:26:15] You know, there's a l- it's ripe for taking things personally. I think that it's really important for people to hear, you get to respect yourself, and sometimes respecting yourself looks like, "Hey, I hear that you're upset about this. I hear that this didn't go the way you wanted it to go. I am not okay with how you're talking to me.
[00:26:35] I'm gonna check out for a little bit," right? And we can come back to that. And I think there's this other conversation that can happen, which is, "Well, you can't walk away from your kiddo," and I'm saying, please do. Please take care of yourself, right? Who- how can we be who they need us to be if we're not also clear on what our personal boundaries are,
[00:26:57] Amber Traina: right?
[00:26:57] And don't we want them to do that for themselves? Yes.
[00:26:59] Casey O'Roarty: Because- They
[00:26:59] Amber Traina: have to see it
[00:27:00] Casey O'Roarty: modeled ...
[00:27:01] Amber Traina: exactly. At some point- Yeah ... somebody is going to be disrespectful with them, and they need to know that they can stand up for themselves and that it's not acceptable. Yeah. I remember at one point I said to my son, "Do you know that if I was in relationship with somebody else and they spoke to me that the way that you are speaking to me right now, I would not be in relationship with them anymore?"
[00:27:20] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:27:20] Amber Traina: Because it's not okay. Yeah. And they need to, they need to know that. Yeah. And I mean, who better than our children to pull out all of the different areas where we still, you know, are sometimes little children ourselves and are still growing and, and learning. And, uh, the, the, the language piece, though, I think having the tools, the language that you can respond with in those situations, like you said, you know- Yeah
[00:27:47] "I see what you're going through, and-" Yeah ... "it's not okay with me for you to s- to speak to me that way." At one point, I was noticing, and it wasn't the because I said so, it was other things that were sort of coming up as a parent that I know it was s- were said to me when I was- Yeah. Oh, yeah ... I think it was starting.
[00:28:05] So I actually wrote down- Um, alternative phrases that I could use when those things were coming up, because they were coming up over and over. And I would keep it on a little piece of paper, and I would put it in my back pocket, and every night I would put it on my bed stand. In the morning I would pick it up again, and I never had to actually pull it out of the pocket, just kn- the practice of doing it and knowing it was there was enough for me to sort of reprogram these phrases that were, had been programmed into me at some point.
[00:28:32] But I knew it wasn't the way that I wanted to go, and, um, that was a really powerful shift in being able to move towards this kind and firm- Mm-hmm ... at the same time.
[00:28:45] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:28:45] Amber Traina: But I needed, I needed the actual physical reminder.
[00:28:49] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah, for me it was learning, um, the process of making amends. When I learned that in my teaching parenting, and the very last step around resolving the situation, yes, to problem-solving whatever it was with our kiddo, but actually what I leaned into more often than not, if it, if I had lost it, which happened regularly, um, but less regularly as I practiced this, because I would own it Apologize for it, and then say, "Here's what you're gonna see me do the next time I'm feeling overwhelmed like that so that I can show up better for you."
[00:29:29] And so it was a similar kind of thing as you're talking about, Amber, where I put it out there, and something about putting it out there made it just a little bit more likely that I would actually follow through and do what I said I was gonna do. And that really ... I know, I remember at first being like, "Oh, great.
[00:29:46] I'm gonna be saying I'm sorry, like, a million times a day, and they're gonna be like, 'Oh, here's Mom again.'" But really, the power of that last step around here's how I'm gonna take care of myself so that I can show up better for you was really key to my practice.
[00:30:03] Amber Traina: I love that. It's interesting that different things resonate with different people, right?
[00:30:08] Mm-hmm. There's, there's different things that stand out for different people. Um, but very often we've come to positive discipline or, you know, to a workshop or the book or whatever it is because we're looking for a different way.
[00:30:20] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:30:20] Amber Traina: And, or a solution to something.
[00:30:22] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:30:23] Amber Traina: And, um, you know, very often parents will, they'll keep doing, humans will keep doing- Yeah
[00:30:30] the same thing and over and over and over again until they have a different way to do it.
[00:30:35] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:30:35] Amber Traina: And though, I think that's the beauty of it, is that we can all ... And now, especially after this revision, having read the book, I can't even tell you how many times I've read the book. The different golden nuggets that I pull out and, and it's the same with teaching a workshop, you know?
[00:30:51] Yeah, for
[00:30:51] Casey O'Roarty: sure.
[00:30:51] Amber Traina: Facilitating with people, it's just a different experience. You pull something else out because you're in a different space. Your kids are in a different space, and so it really, it feels to me like a live work that continues to grow with me as I grow, as my kids grow. And I, I keep going, coming back to it.
[00:31:08] And aside from the time I got to spend with my grandmother on this project, it has been such a gift for me to do this deep dive- Yeah ... because I just, I continue to be inspired.
[00:31:19] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. There's, I mean, there is so much to be said around that immersing ourselves in this work. I have a lot of clients and, and people I work with who are like, just like, "Oh, you always know what to say."
[00:31:30] I'm like, "Well, first of all, it's really easy when it's not with my kids. And second of all, all I do all day long is talk about parenting." Like, it's on my mind. It's, it's the water that I swim in, so of course they're gonna experience it as, oh, it's second nature. It is not. I mean, it's more so now than it's ever been before, but yeah, we're still human beings having an emotional experience with life, you know, that continues to unfold and offer opportunities left and right.
[00:32:02] Like, okay, let's level this up. You know? That's how I'm experiencing it anyway.
[00:32:15] Coming back into the chapter on technology, I know I said that we weren't gonna talk all about tech, but actually we are gonna talk about tech, and specifically what I'm noticing is I've got parents with older teens who they're at a place where it, it, like they've given up, right? They've given up. I've got parents with 11s, 12s, 13s that are holding real tight, which I actually am like, "Keep holding.
[00:32:45] Hold tight as long as you can." I don't think there's any reason that young kids should be on Snapchat or, you know, there's no re- like, there's really no reason other than, you know, what's tricky is when we were in middle school, we could pick up the phone and call our friends And there's no landline anymore, and so that is tricky.
[00:33:09] Anyway, all that is true. So let's highlight a couple of the tools in the chapter that are emphasized as, you know, useful that a listener can take away and maybe work on putting into practice. And, and you know, and I say that, Amber, knowing that as I flip through this chapter, modeling, agreements, follow-through, these are all things that I talk about regularly on the podcast, and for whatever reason, it feels so hard inside of the context of screens.
[00:33:44] So what's your favorite, especially with your oldest?
[00:33:48] Amber Traina: It is so hard. It is so hard because, you know, all of our kids are different. Mm-hmm. And what is a challenge with one child or works with one child isn't necessarily the same thing with another child, and the same thing with our kids' friends. And so they're, they're exposed to their friends having different rules around technology- Mm-hmm
[00:34:12] different access to technology than they have. But their friend, what they don't see is their friend doesn't have the same challenges with technology necessarily or has a different, you know, family nuance or, you know, whatever it is. And so it's really h- it's really hard. I just wanna say, it's really hard-
[00:34:28] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm
[00:34:29] Amber Traina: as a parent to maintain those firm boundaries. Um, and if you asked my son, he'd tell you I'm really strict about, you know, screen time and about, um, access to technology, and he's really bummed that he doesn't have any social media. And I tell him, "You know what? Um, your safety and your wellbeing is my biggest priority, and so I'm okay with you being disappointed with me about this one."
[00:34:53] Casey O'Roarty: Yes. Thank you. I say that. I say that. I say that, too, to parents all the time. This is about health and wellbeing. I love you so much. Yeah.
[00:35:01] Amber Traina: And we talk about what the potential negative side effects of access to those types of things, so I do speak with him about it. Um, in terms of the chapter, 'cause I know it can feel really overwhelming for parents to get started, I really love the audit.
[00:35:20] Mm-hmm. The tech audit. Yeah. And I like it for parents to do for themselves, um, you know, to look into their, their own habits and what they might be modeling and the kind of messaging that they're, um, you know, sending about technology. Not so that they can feel shame. Uh-huh. But I think awareness is the first- Awareness
[00:35:44] step.
[00:35:44] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:35:45] Amber Traina: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Having the awareness, because the message is going out. So we d- we do need to know the kind of messaging that we're putting out there as parents. But also, I think doing the audit for your child. You know, if you're having a, a challenge with technology, who is your child? Mm. Why do they want to engage with this particular- technology?
[00:36:06] What does it, what function does it serve for them? You know, what skills might they still need to develop? What are you afraid might happen if they do have access to the technology? You know, just sort of digging into the individual experience that your child is having.
[00:36:25] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:36:25] Amber Traina: And I think when parents can do that, it really answers a lot of questions about how to navigate the situation.
[00:36:32] Mm-hmm. If you can sit down and really look. You know, I have a child with ADHD, and I have observed, and in talking with other parents, that very often, excessive screen time, or extended screen time, or even screen time that other children can handle, my son cannot handle, and he almost goes through what looks like withdrawal- Mm-hmm
[00:36:56] when, when he comes off of it. And so, you know, the dopamine response for him is different, especially with, you know, video games. And so I've looked at how it affects him in particular, and what it's helped me to align the limits in how I approach technology for him. Mm-hmm. And then we can have a conversation about it.
[00:37:18] But I think doing the audit and knowing where you are with technology, knowing who your child is, and how technology serves or functions for them-
[00:37:27] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm ...
[00:37:27] Amber Traina: um, is the first, is the first place. The second most tangible tool that I would talk about though is agreements.
[00:37:34] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah, yeah,
[00:37:35] Amber Traina: yeah. I, I mean, it just, having an agreement upfront, it eliminates so much-
[00:37:42] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah
[00:37:42] Amber Traina: conflict down the road. Not that there won't be any conflict, because the agreement gets broken, and then you have to revisit the agreement again. And part of the process of doing the agreement is a journey, and something that your kids learn from. Yeah. You know, what happens when you have to follow through and, you know, the consequence of breaking- Yeah
[00:38:00] the agreement, what happens after that. Um, but I think that's a really tangible tool that parents can start with, and it, it's, it opens up clear communication with your child about what the expectations are. Um, and they can participate, and they should participate- Yeah ... you know, in the agreement.
[00:38:16] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:38:16] Amber Traina: Uh, it also opens up the opportunity to have a conversation with your child when the agreement is broken- Mm-hmm
[00:38:25] because you were both on the same page to begin with.
[00:38:28] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:38:29] Amber Traina: And so I think the process, it really, it sets a standard for, for both of you.
[00:38:36] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. So one of the things, and I actually heard Jane say this, and I loved it, was, you know, with privilege comes responsibility, and privilege without responsibility leads to entitlement.
[00:38:51] Amber Traina: Mm-hmm.
[00:38:51] Casey O'Roarty: And when I talk about it in the context of screens, and I'd love to know your take on it- I will quickly say this is not do your chores to earn your screens. That's not the responsibility that I'm talking about. What I'm talking about with screens is we have conversations around limits. We have conversations around use, and you're willing to engage in those conversations.
[00:39:19] Because so many families that I have been in conversation with will say, "Oh my gosh, I even bring up the phone." So we're having more conversations around the phone than, like, video games. I feel like video games, like, okay, you get two hours a day. The phone is more nuanced, especially as kids get older, 'cause it's in their pocket.
[00:39:38] You know, and they're texting, they're responding. It's like the old days of... Although I used to get in a lot of trouble if the phone rang after 9:00, which I was like, "That is so lame. That is not my fault." But I- Tell
[00:39:51] Amber Traina: all your friends.
[00:39:52] Casey O'Roarty: You know, tell all your friends, we don't care. Um, so anyway, going back to that piece around, like, this is part of it.
[00:40:01] We get to have conversations around the screens. And then also, even with agreements- I like to remind, you know, there's that kind and firm piece. Yes, collaboration, yes, cooperation, and buy-in, and the brainstorming process, and also the non-negotiable of there will be limits. Your health and wellbeing matters to me, right?
[00:40:24] We're waiting on social media. That's a, a non-negotiable. What is negotiable is what does it look like inside of these... I was just talking to another parent who they have very strict screen rules for their kiddos, and their kiddos are the same ages as your older two, and she was so cute. She was like, "God, but all the amendments that we're making."
[00:40:44] Like, well, what about when you go to a friend's house and play video games? Do you still get the hour at home? And there's, like, the agreement and, or the... Well, at their house it was more, it's more of, like, what the parents say, and then all these Post-it Notes that are like, "And if." I don't know if I have a question around that, just wondering what your thoughts are.
[00:41:02] Amber Traina: It feels like so much management, and that's where, like, setting screen time rules or parental restrictions- Yeah ... and managing, you know, all of that stuff, and it's constantly changing. And then, you know, there's an update and all the, the parental stuff got turned off. Yes. You know? And I don't know. I, I, I get really, um, it's overwhelming.
[00:41:22] Yeah. It's a lot to manage. Yeah. And, but I think when it comes to the agreement, you know, some of it is broad enough to allow for that individual- Mm-hmm ... you know, approach, and I think some of it is important for them to sort of navigate a little bit of the territory on their own, so long as the real basics are covered.
[00:41:46] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:41:46] Amber Traina: And then it opens up the opportunity to have a conversation about, okay, well, is that safe? What is that serving you? You know? Yeah. I like to equate it to, like, driving, right? Mm-hmm. So your kids are getting older, then maybe they're taking driver's ed. They get to go out and practice with you. There are certain restrictions and training wheels that get put- Yeah
[00:42:07] on the privilege of driving until they actually demonstrate that they are Ready and capable, and they pass the test, and they demonstrate that they are a safe driver, and obviously that they're old enough. Mm-hmm. And I don't think that technology needs to be any different. Yeah. So there is a requirement on our part to monitor and safeguard and continue to check in until they do demonstrate that they are capable and ready, and they do need to be ready.
[00:42:32] They do need to be learning, you know, how to navigate technology, and having a phone, and what's okay to s- put out there in the world, and what's not okay, and what could they encounter, and making sure that they're not, you know, h- having the opportunity to stumble on inappropriate content before, you know-
[00:42:49] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah
[00:42:49] Amber Traina: they're old enough. I mean, so many kids are stumbling onto porn-
[00:42:53] Casey O'Roarty: Oh, yeah ...
[00:42:53] Amber Traina: accidentally. I mean- Yeah ... it's just ... So on our part, unfortunately for parents, we do have to, I think, bear the burden of putting in certain safeguards ourselves. Um, but I think where the agreement comes in is it does need to be adjusted as your kids demonstrate that they- Yeah
[00:43:12] are, you know, ready, and it's, it's great to have the conversation. But I, I think one of the tools that's actually not even in the chapter, and I think it probably is the most important part of all of this and of everything, is the connection piece.
[00:43:28] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. Yes. I
[00:43:29] Amber Traina: was just gonna- Because our kids are gonna mess up.
[00:43:32] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:43:32] Amber Traina: They're gonna do something they're not supposed to do. Mm-hmm. They're gonna make a mistake whether they meant to or not. They're gonna get in trouble or- Yeah ... or, or do something. But if we have established connection with them, then we continue to be the place where they can come- Yeah ... when they've messed up.
[00:43:48] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:43:49] Amber Traina: And that goes with technology, too. 100%. I think that, you know, if they stumble onto something that they didn't want to see or shouldn't have seen or whatever, if we have that connection with them, hopefully they come and they talk with us about it, and we can help them process what happened.
[00:44:05] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:44:05] Amber Traina: You know, if they're having an issue, or something went out, or they made a mistake, like, they can come back to us and we can still help them.
[00:44:11] 'Cause while they're home with us, we can help them navigate these mistakes. We can help buffer them a little bit. It's almost important for those mistakes to be happening while they're home with us instead of waiting until they're out in the world when we are not their buffer anymore. Yeah. We're not there- Yeah
[00:44:28] for their sounding board.
[00:44:29] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. I think that is so important, and I was gonna bring that up, too. You know, one of the pillars of positive discipline, mistakes are opportunities to learn. I think, you know, I hear from a lot of parents, "Oh, I want my kids to come to me. I want them to be able to tell me things.
[00:44:44] I tell them that they can come to me with anything." And my response is always, "Do they believe you?" Or have you demonstrated that you can handle hearing hard things? In conversations that have nothing to do with them, but things in the world, what are you showing that you're willing to be grounded and listen to and absorb and be curious about?
[00:45:07] Because mistakes happen, and some of them are really big, scary mistakes, and if there's any doubt in their mind around whether or not you can be there for them, if you ... Like, the level of disappointment, the level of, like, they're already feeling bad about something. Are we gonna... That matters. And in some cases, like with some of the things that are happening with technology and catfishing and, you know, there's an entire task force of the FBI that is focused on sextortion, you know, and teenage boys being targeted, and they're killing themselves rather than going to their parents and saying, "I really screwed up, and now I'm really scared and I need your help."
[00:45:49] Because the
[00:45:50] Amber Traina: shame is bigger than
[00:45:51] Casey O'Roarty: the
[00:45:51] Amber Traina: connection
[00:45:52] Casey O'Roarty: Yes. The shame and the fear is bigger- Mm-hmm ... than the connection. And so, like, I just want, I'm, this, I'm, this might sound dramatic, but I know you get it, Amber, but, like, truly, listeners, the most important th- mistakes will happen, so you get to really work hard to make sure that your kids really believe that you've got their back no matter what, right?
[00:46:17] Absolutely. It's not enough
[00:46:18] Amber Traina: to say it. And that you see them.
[00:46:19] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:46:20] Amber Traina: Yeah, that you see them for who they are. Yes. And that you appreciate them for who they are and that you respect them, and so all of that comes through. I, I, it's crazy that you brought that up, um, because I h- I do have permission to share this story, but I had a friend who went through that, the sextortion with a teenage boy.
[00:46:36] Mm-hmm. And, um, you know, I, I shared this story at Positive Discipline Think Tank recently, um, because their son, and it was the classic case. It's the same stuff that we're seeing, you know, come out in the news. But their son woke them up in the middle of the night and said, "I messed up."
[00:46:54] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm. "
[00:46:55] Amber Traina: I did something that I shouldn't have," and he was terrified, but his connection with his parents, his trust in his parents, was bigger than his shame of his mistake, and it probably saved his life.
[00:47:07] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:47:09] Amber Traina: That's how, it's, it seems so simple, but that's how powerful it is. Yeah. And it, and it happens in small moments. Yeah. You know? I, we, you know, we can start to address technology. We can, we can do agreements. We can do, you know, limits. We can have a parking station for where things get charged so no devices are going into bedrooms.
[00:47:25] We can do these things, these tools, but the connection happens in small moments throughout the day every day. Yeah. And it's something that if we focus on that while we're trying to figure out this other piece- Yeah ... we're buffering them.
[00:47:39] Casey O'Roarty: Totally. I call it the intentional ecosystem. I'm working on this kind of frameworking language around those in-the-moment tools coupled with what are the systems and routines, you know, also inside of what does the relationship look like, the messages that we're sending, and our own personal growth work.
[00:47:57] So there's a whole ecosystem that is playing into these, like, small moments, and to me, I mean, listeners you'll have to let me know, it makes sense. It's actually more helpful to me to think about it from that lens- Versus, like, very pinpointy specific behavior, specific response. Because oftentimes when we're just looking through that tiny little peephole, things don't land, 'cause we're not also taking into account, well, we have no systems, or we're really disconnected from our kiddos, or, you know-
[00:48:33] Amber Traina: Or you figure it out, and all of a sudden it's not an issue anymore because they've moved on to the next thing.
[00:48:37] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, totally. They're
[00:48:39] Amber Traina: in a different developmental stage. Totally. You know, they're, they've moved on, and, and then you still need to work on the ecosystem, as you said, because the- Yeah ... the next challenge is gonna come.
[00:48:48] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah, yeah.
[00:48:49] Amber Traina: So this is the work that follows you through. Yeah. It's the work that really, it, it, it's, it's the most important work, I think.
[00:48:56] Casey O'Roarty: For sure. And keeping our eyes on the long game, right? So landing this conversation, because I work with parents of teenagers and, you know, kiddos that are steps away from launching and being out in the world as baby adults, as I call them, they're gonna walk out the door, they're gonna have a phone in their pocket.
[00:49:13] They're not gonna have the, you know, all the strict limits and things. So I really focus, try to remind parents to focus a lot on how are we developing their critical thinking about their relationship with their phone and technology. And r- my son actually brought a TED Talk to me. He was like, "Oh, my God, I saw this TED Talk."
[00:49:36] I don't know how he stumbled upon it. And there, he, the guy had, like, I don't know how many little dots that represented every year of our life, and he kind of went backwards and said, "So for the, an 18-year-old in 2023," or whenever it was, "they're gonna u- spend this much time sleeping," right? And dots get filled in.
[00:49:54] And this much time eating, this much time sitting at school, and this much time looking at a screen. And it is appalling. It's a great TED Talk, listeners. I'll put it in the show notes. But my, you know, my kid, and I asked him 'cause, you know, when, now he's in college, and I'm like, "Hey, how's your relationship with your phone?"
[00:50:12] It's just a, I throw that out there all the time. Here's how I'm doing. I said, "Do you ever think about that TED Talk that you showed me that one time?" And he goes, "Ugh, God, that TED Talk haunts me." So even having the information, he's like, "Oh, God, I know what I'm doing when I'm doing it, and yet I'm still doing it."
[00:50:34] And but what I want is for him to be in that tension, right? Yes. 'Cause that matters more than just- Yes ... you know, like, the mindlessness of just letting it use you is basically what it's doing. Yeah, so keeping that long game in mind. And this whole conversation, Amber, is just getting me excited about having a follow-up show around getting specific.
[00:50:57] Again, I've done shows on making agreements, and I think it's probably time again to talk about agreements around tech and what it can look like. So thank you for that.
[00:51:06] Amber Traina: I love that. Thank you for the work. I love that. Yeah. It's so important. It's so important. And the conversations we have with our kids, right?
[00:51:11] Yeah About what's going on for us.
[00:51:14] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:51:14] Amber Traina: To share, you know, I, I will talk with, "Listen, I got this scam call. This is what it looked like." It's an opportunity for me to help build my son's toolbox of- Yeah ... now he knows how to respond to that situation.
[00:51:26] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. It's tricky. It's tricky
[00:51:28] Amber Traina: out there. Yep. Yep.
[00:51:29] Casey O'Roarty: So in the context of all this, I'm so excited about the second edition.
[00:51:33] Everybody, the second edition of Positive Discipline is out. It w- came out September 8th, so it's anywhere you find books, you will find this book, so get your hands on it. Um, but what I'd love, as we close, Amber, I have two questions that I always end with, and the first one is, in the context of positive discipline, what does joyful courage mean to you?
[00:51:54] Amber Traina: Hmm. I love this question, and I love that you ask it at the end to everybody. Uh, I think for me, you know, as we talked about a couple of times, you know, the journey can be messy, and so it does take courage. And I think the joyful courage is really leaning into the journey, not just the destination.
[00:52:11] Casey O'Roarty: Yes. Oh, I love that.
[00:52:13] Nice and to the point there, Amber. Good job. Where can people find you and follow what you're doing in the world?
[00:52:20] Amber Traina: My website is ambertraina.com, and that's probably the best place.
[00:52:24] Casey O'Roarty: Okay. I'll make sure- Yeah ... that's in the show notes. Yeah. Thank you so much for hanging out with me today. This was awesome.
[00:52:29] Amber Traina: Thank you, Casey. Great conversation.
[00:52:36] Casey O'Roarty: Thank you so much for listening. Thank you to my Sproutable partners, Julietta and Alana. Thank you, Danielle, for supporting with the show notes, as well as Chris Mann and the team at Podshaper for all the support with getting this show out there and making it sound good. As I mentioned, sharing is caring.
[00:52:53] If you're willing to pass on this episode to others or take a few minutes to rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, it helps other parents find this useful content. Be sure to check out what we have going on for parents of kids of all ages, and sign up for our newsletter to stay connected at besproutable.com.
[00:53:13] I see you doing all the things. I believe in you. See you next time.