Eps 112: Following Our Kids Lead with Homeschool Unrefined Hosts, Angela and Maren

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Casey O'Roarty 0:01
Joy, joyful courage, parenting podcast episode 112

Hey friends, welcome back to the show. Welcome back to the joyful courage podcast, a place for information and inspiration on this conscious parenting journey. I am your host, Casey o'wardy, I am a positive discipline trainer and parent coach, also a participant on this life journey, this never ending personal growth and development workshop called parenting. Yes, I am I am with you. I am in the trenches. It is Sunday. This show is going live on Tuesday. I am feeling a little bit overwhelmed just keeping it real. Because isn't it so true that no matter what your plans are in life, stuff shows up, right? Challenges show up. We cannot control things, it turns out, I mean, I don't know about you, but that is very disconcerting to me. It I am a controller. I'm a controller. Everyone like, Okay, hi. My name is Casey, and I am a controller. I am currently in recovery around controlling everyone and everything, and thinking that I somehow have the ultimate say in the way that life has to look for everyone, and that is currently biting me in the ass. So, you know, there's been some pretty deep soul work going on over here in joyful courage land, and I'm happy to say that I am choosing into it. I really am grateful for everything that's showing up. Because whenever we are challenged, right, whenever we are challenged or invited into some really big, hard work, the other side is always better, right? The other side is always better. So, yeah, I'm really working on my own path of letting go and surrender and trusting that everything happens for a reason, and when we choose in like, I said, what's on the other side is only going to be better, right? That is where I'm at right now. In case you were wondering if you're a new listener and you're thinking like, well, what is the deal? I thought this was an interview show. Why is she talking about her own life. Well, this is, this is how it is over here, at joyful courage. I keep it real. I do not show up as an expert. I show up as a journeyer, just like all of you. And the journey is, you know, sometimes it's a downhill journey and sometimes it's an uphill journey. The train is, can be rough. The terrain is exactly as it should be, so that we can grow and evolve as human beings. And yeah, I'm in it. I'm in it with you. So I'm really excited about the show. Today. I have Marin and Angela, the two hosts of homeschool unrefined, which is another podcast, and I was hooked up with them through a follower of mine on Instagram. She said, you should really check these gals out. I did. Even though I am not a homeschool mom, I so appreciate their come from around being open and really listening and being connected to our kids and our family in a way that allows us to create an environment for growth and learning. And I think you will find, whether you have kids in school or you are a homeschool parent, that you will be taking away all sorts of juicy nuggets from this conversation. These two gals are on a mission to create a community and a space for homeschool families, where things don't have to look perfect, where we are embracing the messiness that comes with, you know, not only parenting, but with being our children's first teachers, they are dedicated to keeping things simple, real and fun, and I'm just really excited to share our conversation with you. So that's all I'm going to say about that. Stick around at the end. I have a really exciting offer to be making. And, yeah, enjoy the show.

Unknown Speaker 4:42
You. Hi

Casey O'Roarty 4:44
Maren and Angela, welcome to the podcast.

Angela 4:48
Hi.

Casey O'Roarty 4:49
I'm so glad that you're here.

Maren 4:53
We are so glad to be here. Thank you for having You're

Casey O'Roarty 4:56
welcome. Please share a little bit with my listeners. About your journey of doing what you do.

Angela 5:05
Angela, do you want to start Sure? Okay, Marin and I, we have been friends for a long time. We've been friends since college. So that's nearly Well, that's 20 years.

Casey O'Roarty 5:18
Just embrace it. It feels very weird,

Angela 5:25
and we were both public school teachers before we decided to homeschool. And then we decided to homeschool about around about the same time, we have kids about the same age, and we decided to homeschool. And then last year, we really wanted, we really felt like we should do this homeschool podcast. And Myron, maybe you want to talk a little bit about why we decided to do that.

Maren 5:51
Yeah, well, we, before we did full time homeschooling, we were both, we both sent our kids to the same school, and it was like a part time homeschool thing, and so they'd be at school Monday through Wednesday, and they were home Thursday and Friday, and we started like a coffee hour, kind of with some parents from the school, and we just sensed this need for way more encouragement and just empowering homeschool parents. And I think there's a lot out there on social media, just, you know, like in any genre that you if you're looking on social media, you're gonna see a lot of like, amazing things happening. And so in the home, when you're following all these homeschool parents, you just can sometimes, like, feel a little like, Oh, I am just not doing anything amazing, and so, you know, we're just, I'm just making it through today. And so that is an accomplishment. And we were just just felt like we wanted to be a presence, kind of for real homeschooling, like, you know, we want to be able to admit our failures and have encouragement. Have a group of encouraging people come alongside us and just kind of do this together. And we wanted to enjoy it. So instead of comparing with each other, we wanted to just like, be with each other and feel good about what we were doing.

Casey O'Roarty 7:16
I love that. I love that. It sounds a lot like my choice, my choosing into podcasting as well. It's like there's this glamorized view of what it looks like to be a parent. And my my little niche is like this conscious, Positive Parenting Place. And then it's, you know, it's rainbows and unicorns all the time. And so I thought, I lose my shit sometimes. And yeah, and we need to talk about that. It's okay. So I'm hearing you say, like, normalizing,

Maren 7:46
yes, exactly. And you know, when that happens, that doesn't mean like, you should just jump ship and like you. It's not like you need to say, I'm just not cut out for this. I can't do this, right? No, this is just real life. Yeah, and let's just help each other out here. Will

Casey O'Roarty 8:02
you talk a little bit about your decision to homeschool?

Angela 8:07
Yeah, sure. I can start with that. I think, um, you know, like Maren said, we both did this part time thing for probably, I don't know, four, four or five years, maybe. And then I just really felt a desire for more connection with my kids and less hurried, scheduled lives. And I felt like it just for me, speaking for me personally, I feel like when I have a lot on the schedule and I'm trying to meet other people's expectations, I tend to get really stressed out, and then that gets passed along to my kids, and I feel like that's that's not how I wanted our family life to be. And so since we've decided to homeschool, we actually kind of, my husband was traveling, and we went with him, and so we were homeschooling kind of just, you know, accidentally or whatever, full time for a few months. And it felt great. I felt our life was relaxed and fun and happy. And I thought, you know, I should just give this a try. So full, you know, full time. And so we did, and it's been really great. We my husband travels for work, and so we're able to pick up and go and travel with him, which is probably it's another huge reason, reason that we've decided to do this.

Casey O'Roarty 9:24
Yeah, what kind of places, where do you go? What kind of travel?

Angela 9:30
Nothing real exciting.

Casey O'Roarty 9:32
Not like world traveling,

Angela 9:34
not yet, not yet. But we do have dreams of, you know, going on some sort of sabbatical and traveling other exciting places in the world. But no, he has, part of his work is in Arizona. And so we would go there every winter, every January, for like a month with him. Because, you know, we live in Minnesota. So

Maren 9:55
that was, that was a big deal. A good month to go to Arizona. It

Angela 9:58
was a good month. And so. You've kind of kept on doing that, and then, other than that, just for little small like trips here and there,

Casey O'Roarty 10:06
well, and it's funny, Marin that you mentioned, like looking at what you see on social media and like the glamor, the glitz and glamor of homeschooling. So full transparency. I think most of my listeners, know, but I am a send them to school, mom, and today is first day, and I have a really good friend. Shout out to Jessica Serna, who, this last year, took her, her and her husband bought an RV, a really nice RV, and they did a year on the road and covered like the United the whole United States. And I loved watching vicariously through their Instagramming. And there was this little voice in my head that was like, You are a loser. Look at what these people are doing, and you have not left Monroe in three months, or whatever, you know. So I get that. I get that. Do you have anything else that you want to share about your choice into homeschooling? Marin,

Maren 11:08
I think, Well, I think it probably, there was probably a seed that even started when I was teaching and just thinking, Oh, I kind of felt a little constrained just by what I was teaching. And I thought, oh, there's so many great things that each of these kids would probably love to learn about and I just can't do it. And so I think when I had kids, I that kind of got stronger, and I just felt like you needed more freedom. And that's kind of part of my personality too, is I just like to have that kind of freedom and and so when we found we, you know, Angela and I both started sending our kids to the school, and then we, the two of us, started having these conversations about maybe homeschooling, and it was so helpful, I got to tell you to know that it was even a possibility to have a good friend of mine doing it with me, because I don't know it would have been real hard to do it on my own. Yeah, honestly. So yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 12:03
well, and your website says that you want parents to feel good about what they're already doing, because so much learning happens in the work and play of every day, and it is easy to doubt yourself when hearing about what others are doing or discovering a new curriculum. So talk a little bit more about that.

Angela 12:22
Yeah, yeah. I think it's Yeah, sure. I think, um, I think as a homeschool parent or, uh, any kind of parent or person, it is so easy, like we were just talking about to look at what other people are doing and then see this deficiency in yourself. Or, like, like you were talking about with the RVing, I'm not doing that. My kids are missing out,

Speaker 1 12:45
and you need to get it together. Come on, yeah, yeah. Or an RV

Angela 12:50
Yeah? I mean, it can be anything, but the reality is, you're doing lots of things that maybe your friend isn't doing, you know? And we are all like, I think we all tend to doubt ourselves, and I think that's really unfortunate, because we all have so much to offer. And the truth is, your kids need you as a parent, and they need your particular gifts and skills, and you need to it's best for your kids if you are able to let those shine through and teach them all the things that you know?

Unknown Speaker 13:25
Yeah,

Maren 13:27
exactly like you know. I just think, I think when I see a lot of people on social media, homeschooling, I my downfall is I feel bad about how I plan, because I am not a huge planner. I'm not good at planning. It's not my forte and but guess what? I'm really good at going on adventures with my kids, and I have a really great library of books, you know, like, I have other things that I do. Well, we play a lot of good music at our house, and so those kind of things might seem like real small when you see somebody doing all this amazing planning, that's really good stuff. Yeah, that is really good stuff. Yeah? So I have to keep telling myself that, like every day this is good stuff that I'm doing. It doesn't look like probably 99% of what everybody else is doing, but

Unknown Speaker 14:16
it's good. Yeah, I

Casey O'Roarty 14:17
love that. There's that inner journey of trusting yourself, right, right? And I think that shows up in parenting in a variety of ways. And it sounds like definitely, and the vastness of homeschooling, because homeschooling feels super, like vast, I think that's what freaks me out. It's like, oh my god, there's just so many choices. And like, yeah,

Maren 14:39
it's overwhelming, it definitely, yeah, for sure. So

Casey O'Roarty 14:43
what are some of the biggest issues? Because now you have this podcast, and you've created this community, I know you have a you have a facebook group page, what are some of the biggest issues that show up in your community? Yeah.

In general, could be homeschooling. Could just be parenting. What do you what are you hearing from people?

Angela 15:12
I would say, kind of what we just were talking about. I think parents are lacking confidence. I think they are wondering like, am what I is what I am doing enough, which is, really, am I enough for my kids? I think it's hard, because the standard is sending your kids to school. And so you see that you know over here as this thing that everybody else does. And so then you wonder, like, I'm not a, I'm not a trained teacher, or like, I'm I don't know what I'm doing. You know, I don't know what I'm doing. And so you can really start to doubt yourself. So what I don't know? I

Maren 15:52
think that's one issue that we see a lot Martin, is just this confidence, like, definitely don't have confidence in what they're doing, absolutely. And I think parents, I mean people in general, but parents especially, I feel like they need to borrow your faith in them. Sometimes they don't have faith in themselves, and they just need somebody to say, you've got this. You can do this. And look at what you have, look at what you have inside of you right now. You get this.

Angela 16:21
Yeah, I think. Because the truth is, like, if you take any any kid, and I'll just pick one of mine, for example, like if you pick my son, and we scoured the earth for the best teachers for him, you know, it would not be this one teacher over here with 20 years experience. It would be me and my husband, because we know him the best, we love him the most, we see things in him, and we appreciate things about him, and we can nurture these things in him. That doesn't necessarily mean that I should teach him academically. That's not what I'm saying. But I'm saying you as a parent are like the one of the best teachers for your kids, and you, sharing your gifts with them is so important.

Maren 17:04
We talked, we actually just recorded an episode yesterday that's going to come out next Monday, and it's about letting go of perfectionism. And I think that kind of can be part of this where, like, I think there is a tendency. I mean, if you have chosen to homeschool. You have made a choice about like, made a very conscious choice about like, making, you know, making this different, making this education experience different. So you have something in you that's probably a little bit perfectionistic in that way and so, and that can be a strength and it can also be your downfall. If you're like, always thinking like, I'm not doing this right. I'm not doing this right. By the end of the day, we you haven't met all your expectations, and then you just be like, Oh, failure. So I think we just need to, I mean, parents in general, definitely need to just like, shift our expectations sometimes. Is it really the outcome of getting a perfectly clean bedroom? Is that really what you want at the end of the day? Or are you striving for, you know, a good, better connection with your kids? You know, what is your what's your main goal? I think it's real important to kind of be really conscious about that.

Casey O'Roarty 18:20
I love that, and I I'm just connecting so many dots, listening to what you're talking about. Because especially going back to that, the standard is sending your kids to school, so you guys are kind of going against the grain, right? Even though I know that, like even in my town, there's a homeschool connection school where families can use it as a resource. And it's funny because often I my friends who go there always say, I always expect to see you there. It's so weird that you're not there like you should be there. But you know, it's all good. We've made our choices, yeah, and it's working out. But that confidence piece, and because, again, I'm often talking about being more intentional and parenting right, being conscious, being present, trusting that the relationship that you have with your kids is actually going to be enough to shift behavior right? That it's really and that's not popular culture. Popular culture is reward and punishment. And yeah, so we have to really let go of am I doing this right? And lean into trusting that you are the perfect teacher for your parent and that your children. Actually, I always say this, I love this. Your kids picked you, everyone, listeners. Your kids picked you, yes, because you're the perfect teacher for them, but also because they're the perfect teachers for you. Oh yeah. So all that stuff that shows up. When you're choosing like, is this the right curriculum? Is this the right adventure? Am I enough that whole conversation? You just have to trust that yes, you are right, yes, that you are so

Maren 20:11
true. So true. So so true. It's so hard. Yeah, so

Speaker 2 20:15
Well, it's hard if you want to make it right, yeah, right. It's

Maren 20:20
it's simple, and yet you it's just like a constant thing you're working on, right?

Casey O'Roarty 20:24
All the time, right? And I'm, I'm guess, yeah, and that's that there's no and I'm guessing it's the same in the homeschool context, like there's not really an end point. It's just that daily, you know, looking for opportunities to expand and grow and learn and be together. You guys talk a lot about following your kids lead, and that whole self directed interest led learning. Will you tell me a little bit more? Will you kind of tease that apart a little bit for me and for the listeners?

Angela 20:57
Sure. Okay, well, you know, I really believe that kids learn best when they feel loved connection, when they feel safe. You know, when those emotional needs are met, that's when they're going to learn the best. And so in order for the academic subjects to happen, that's when that's what's needed. You know, if there's crying or fighting or worried, worried behavior or whatever, they're just it's just the learning is not going to happen.

Casey O'Roarty 21:32
Hey, friends, I just wanted to pop in just for a minute or two and acknowledge that I just had a birthday. I just had a birthday. I turned 44 years old, and I and that that's weird. I'm sharing this because what will be showing up this year in my work has been deeply inspired by and in service to you and your growth, as well as my own. And as I make this new turn around the sun, I just wanted to share that this year, my friend, is a year for deep personal transformation. And I know you thought we had already gone there, and no doubt we have begun, but this year is really going to be a deep dive, and I'm going to lead by example. I will speak my truth and find my hidden vulnerability, and plan on sharing from an ever evolving place of authenticity. You know that I'm learning with you and this parenting gig, I am in it on the front lines, and riding the roller coaster with my two glorious teachers, not to mention my partner, just as you are doing the same. And why am I sharing this? Well, really, what's happening is that I'm hearing from my soul's voice. I'm listening at a deeper level than I have before, and I'm really being called to share this experiencing, this experience with you, and I'm being called to show up and reveal my own work in an ever deeper way, because this is what I am meant to do. Ah, my voice will grow louder, and as I push aside my own discomfort and speak more clearly from my heart, you will hear me calling to you, and I encourage you to check in with yourself. And when you feel that pull, when you hear that yes from your soul's voice, you do what you need to do to join me. If you're a regular listener to the podcast, you've heard me talk about the mother's journey workshop that I'm taking around the Pacific Northwest this fall. This is, this is my call to you. This is an offer of intimacy and sisterhood, an invitation to really open your heart and explore what exists there. This workshop is one of the ways that we can walk together on this journey. So my question is, are you being called to this circle? Is there a little ache in your belly, a soft voice saying, do it? Well, why don't you? What happens when you push aside all of the shoulds and need tos, when you release the schedule? What happens when you push aside all of that and say yes, yes to you, yes to your journey, your evolution, your work of being an ever more present and connected mama and woman. When was the last time that you were a yes to yourself? When was it well, I'm I'm so excited, and I know this offer isn't for everyone. This is a call for mamas that are ready to elevate their practice to a new place to work out the beliefs and the self talk that are keeping you stuck in resentment or overwhelm and to celebrate all that's going well and all there is yet to discover on the path of motherhood. This is for you. I'm talking to you so. This Saturday, I'm going to be in Seattle at om culture studio. There is still space in the training room for you to come and join us. I'm going to, on october 22 be in Portland at gem studio. There is still space in that training room for my Portland mamas, or other mamas that I want to make a road trip. And then November 4, I'm going to be in Boise, location to be determined, and there's still room for you. So if you live near any of those places, or if you're willing to travel to any of those places, here's the call. Hear the call. This is a space that I am so honored to get to hold. And I just wanted to pop in and give a little encouraging nudge to those of you that have been considering it, time is running out and the rooms are filling up. So if you're a yes, be a yes. Head over to joyful courage.com/ mother's journey. Again, that's www dot joyful courage.com/ mother's journey. And enroll. Register. Join us. I can't wait to meet you there. Now, let's get back to the interview. You you can't necessarily give a life lesson when everybody's falling apart. Oh, yeah, right. So I'm hearing you talk about, like, that foundational piece, being connected, being in relationship, knowing your kids,

Angela 26:35
that's totally true. And then also, I wanted to say that when they're interested in something like, for example, I have a daughter who is super interested in baking, right? She loves to bake, um, and she wants to do it every day. You know, last night, she snuck out of her bedroom and grabbed a cookbook to read in bed. So she's learning so much stuff through baking. She's learning math, she's learning science because she's trying things, it's not working. She's having to do substitutions, whatever she's learning.

Maren 27:06
She's reading bed,

Angela 27:07
she's reading a cookbook in bed. And I just feel like, I feel like if I sat down with her with, like, a math workbook and tried to work on fractions, or, you know, a science curriculum or a reading curriculum, it wouldn't be as interesting to her, right? But doing baking Now that's interesting, and that's gonna get her, that's gonna get her attention and make her want to learn that stuff. Do you have, like,

Casey O'Roarty 27:33
a checklist? I mean, I think, sorry, this is like, total, I do not know about homeschooling mom question, but, like, how do you make sure? I mean, and maybe this is also my conditioning, right? That like, Oh, there's the bench. I'm a public school teacher too, or former school teacher too. And it's like, we have the benchmarks and they, you know, all the different skills. Like, how do you what do you do? Yeah, well,

Maren 27:59
here's the thing, I think, I mean, it is just a complete paradigm shift. Really, it is, yeah, homeschooling and so it took me probably six months to get out of that checklist mentality and get more into this idea that, like kids are going to learn when they're ready to learn. Yeah, so, and I think specifically for my kids. Like, I think about reading because my kids are way off the public school timeline for reading. I mean, really so like, for that, like I am, I really just wait for signs until they're ready. I mean, we I have a very rich reading like, literature based environment. We do so much reading throughout the day, read alouds, audiobooks, you know, all this stuff. We write a lot. We do all this stuff, but when it comes down to it, they're going to learn when they're ready. And so I am going, I'm not going to push them or make them feel bad for two years or whatever, until they can finally do it right. Be like there finally, you know, where I can do that. We're gonna just enjoy reading for those two years in a lot of different ways. And then when they get to their time to read on their own, they'll just, there's gonna take off. Then, yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 29:08
and I'm hearing trust show up there too, right, right, yeah. Angela, did you have something?

Angela 29:15
Yeah? Um, yeah. I mean, I was gonna say that when they are ready, it happens really quickly. It does, you know, like you can spend two years or three years or whatever, like, trying to read, teach reading, or teach, like, division, or whatever it is, and then all of a sudden, when they're ready, it takes a day and they've got it, yeah, so I just rather wait,

Unknown Speaker 29:35
yeah, yeah.

Maren 29:40
It's more of like a conversation than like a lesson, necessarily. It's sometimes it's just really, really rich, deep conversations that happen. Or we go to the library and check out a really good book or something, or, you know, listen to a podcast about it. So it's, it's sometimes looks different than, you know, a traditional, maybe set. Mean,

Casey O'Roarty 30:00
well, and that leads me, and you've kind of spoken into this, so there is that, you know, and as former teacher, well, as former, you're not former, you are teachers. Well, we

Angela 30:10
are former traditional school teachers, former

Casey O'Roarty 30:12
traditional school teachers. Um, you know, there's such a big push, like just the conversations around kindergarten and how kindergarten used to be play based, and now it's so not. And, you know, in that push to get kids into activities as early as possible, which I totally slipped into, like my son, you know, at the local Y, they could be playing sports at, you know, the three fours, and it's hilarious, and on the field the whole time.

Maren 30:40
Oh, listen, I got into that too, a lot of things like that too. Well, yeah. And it

Casey O'Roarty 30:44
was so funny, because there's the parents that totally get that this is not a real thing and it's just experiential. And then there's the parents who are, like, super irritated that their three year old wants them on the fields. Yeah.

Maren 31:00
I mean, I remember my daughter was at a soccer camp once one year, and she was, I went to watch, like, the tournament or whatever, and she was playing in the sand on the sideline the whole time. Yeah, I was like, This is what we paid for. It was an experience for her. It was great. But

Angela 31:17
right? And also, I think at that age, at that three or four or five year old age, parents need a break. It's so hard until you see this activity in your community, ed or whatever like, would give you an hour break and you'll take it. Yes, I'm signing anything. I

Maren 31:34
don't care what it is, definitely,

Casey O'Roarty 31:39
but even yes and, and, what about those that idea, though, that there should be some kind of, like, not mastery, but yes, yes, the break, the fun, the experience. That's one mindset. But then there's this other mindset around, like, you know, going back to the reading thing, like, wow, they need to be kindergarten ready, and they need to, yeah.

Maren 32:03
Well, I love the book simplicity parenting, by Kim John Payne. And he speaks into the so well. And he talks about how our kids, a lot of times in this time and age, are getting into sports and intense things, intense activities, so early in their life that they are burned out by the time that they're actually developmentally ready to do an intense activity. So like he talks about when you are like a tween or a teenager, that's when, like you You are developmentally like, kind of needing something intense. So you're either gonna, do you know, volleyball, or you're gonna go get into something, you know, that's not to get into something, you're gonna get into something. So it might as well do something great, get into got it, get into a team or whatever. But when they're six, they don't need that intensity. They just don't well,

Angela 32:59
and it robs them of their play time, which is what they really need. I really need that time to be creative and just play. And playing

Maren 33:08
is so rich. Yeah,

Unknown Speaker 33:09
yes.

Casey O'Roarty 33:11
How old are your kids? You two?

Speaker 2 33:21
Mine are 1210, and eight girls, boys, both, girl, girl, boy, okay, yeah. And

Maren 33:27
I have a 10 year old girl and twin eight year olds who are boy and girl, and then a six year old girl,

Casey O'Roarty 33:35
okay, all right. I was just tapping in there on the tween. I hear you speaking about tweens. So yes, my oldest is 14.

Speaker 3 33:43
Yes, so that's Oh yeah. We're in it. We the thick of it.

Casey O'Roarty 33:50
She went to high school today. Oh, first day. Yeah, wow, so crazy and everything. I'm reading a really good book called untangled. I just want to shout out to all the listeners and you too as well. But it's all about the teen girl brain. And I swear to God, it's like the author has been hiding out in my house. Because every section that I read I'm like, Oh, how did that's exactly what happens. Yeah, big time I wrote that down. Me too. It's a good one. I tried to get her to come on my podcast, but apparently she's very busy,

Angela 34:26
but I'm gonna keep you had your son on.

Casey O'Roarty 34:28
I did. I did. And I was actually gonna interview Rowan, my my teen daughter, about the concepts in the book and see what she thinks. Yeah, that's

Unknown Speaker 34:36
a great idea anyway,

Casey O'Roarty 34:38
but yeah, the I hear what you're saying about that intensity, and it's interesting too. In our town there is, it's a big sports town, and especially, like, there's a lot of kids that play multiple sports, but they're, even if they play multiple sports, it's always at, like, the highest level, yes, right? And parents are so. So busy and running around, I'm thinking like what you said earlier, Angela, about the stress of so many things on the calendar. I can't even, I mean, I like

Maren 35:10
to think about like a jar. I know you probably all heard this analogy of the jar, and you put the big rocks in first, and then you can put the sand in around it, and the sand fits right. But if you start with the sand, the big rocks aren't going to fit in, so you really have to, like, prioritize, what are your big rocks? Yeah, what are the big things that you really need every week? And then, if there's time, sure add in a gymnastics class or whatever. But right? You know, if it doesn't fit in, that's not the most important thing, right? And add

Casey O'Roarty 35:40
in a gymnastics class, not like competitive gymnastics, right? Maybe, maybe that's not where you start,

Angela 35:46
right? There's a difference. And it is kind of sad, because my kids are getting up there, you know, like I have some tweens now, and because they weren't intense with the sports at a young age, now, they're finding it's hard to it's hard to slide in. And so because they feel like, Oh, everybody else has been doing basketball for five years, and I can't just come in as a beginner, right? And so that's really sad, too. Yeah.

Casey O'Roarty 36:14
So have you had experience with a finicky child? Because I love the whole child led like, I really try to pay attention. And I noticed my own stuff around when I think that one of my kids is really getting into something, and I'm like, looking online, what else can we do with this? And then the next day, they're like, over it.

Maren 36:35
Yeah, totally. Well, I think you know, if you've committed to a class, you paid good money for that class. We're not going to quit in the middle of it. Yeah, you committed to that, right? So you gotta, you gotta see that through. But you know, if you're in the middle of a book that's just not working for you, I mean, sure, I mean, I don't like to finish books that aren't good for me, that I don't like, yeah, or, you know, if it's something like that, totally like it's good. I think it's a skill to know when to stop too. Yeah.

Angela 37:03
I mean, there have been things that I was way into, and then I was not like, you know, for example, rollerblading. I thought I was going to be a rollerblader, and I bought these, like, expensive rollerblades, and I went rollerblading a few times, and then I was like, Man, I'm over it. I'm kind of over it. And then if somebody had said to me, oh, no, you got to keep doing this. You started.

Casey O'Roarty 37:29
You got those roller blades,

Angela 37:32
I would be like, No, I don't think so. And that's happened several times to me, so I think it's normal. I mean, I like realizing that you trying something, you know, you think you're going to be into it, so you try it, and then you realize, oh, no, wait, I'm not into it. I think that's totally normal. But like you said, Martin, if you've committed with either money or just, like a verbal commitment, like, I'm going to do this for this semester or this year or something, it is really important to follow that through. And that's also a good skill,

Casey O'Roarty 37:58
yeah? And how do you navigate when the kids are like, Yeah, but I'm not really interested in this anymore.

Maren 38:06
Yeah, well, that is a great I yeah, I don't know. That's a really great conversation. I mean, I don't know if there's a really an answer, but I think the process is so rich, that process of dealing with that. I mean, we did deal with that with my daughter, because I did the same thing, I got into this idea, she's super musical. She has been since she was little. So when she was real, quite young, she started violin lessons, and it was like an intense violin lesson, like it was Suzuki. So what was I thinking? I don't really know, but I mean, I think it's actually you

Casey O'Roarty 38:38
were thinking you had a prodigy child, and you better make sure she has the best teacher ever, because, yeah, it's going to be a long life of

Angela 38:45
if you're going to do it, go in,

Maren 38:47
go all in, all in, right? Yep. Well, it was, it was, it ended up being just too intense. It was too intense all around and she wasn't even saying she wanted to quit, but I could see it was time. It was time to quit. So for now, and I just told her, we're going to take a break. We're just going to take a break. It's not like this is forever. If you're ready, if you want to go back another time, that's fine, but I think we should, I think we should take

Casey O'Roarty 39:11
a break. Yeah, I needed a break. Well, a few years ago, I thought it would be a really great bonding experience for my daughter, who was probably 12 at the time, and I to learn how to play the guitar together. And I was super and she was like, Yeah, let's do it. And so we signed up. I bought her this really cool, sparkly blue guitar. You know, we were both super into Taylor Swift at the time. I was imagining her like sifting through her teen angst by writing songs like, I had this whole visual of what would happen, because we were gonna learn to play the guitar together, like mother daughter. Anyway, I picked it up a lot. Yeah, I picked it up pretty quick, and she didn't and that ticked her off. And she was like, I'm. Out, yep, yep, yeah. And so that was really and then I had to navigate just the like, Wait, What? What? Like, rejection of me, rejection of this, like, letting go of the big dream.

Maren 40:13
And that's where parenting is just not you could not bank on this end thing that's gonna be a perfect experience. What you have to bank on is going through experiences together, processing through things, talking through tough times, and just, you know, listening and supporting, like all that kind of stuff is so rich. And the end goal, just like, cannot be the thing, yeah, that you're working the most at. Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 40:38
right. And I'm hearing, I keep hearing this thing, this theme around connection, right, that you like, that trust and that confidence really comes out of that, this deep and loving connection that you have with your kids.

Maren 40:53
Exactly, awesome, yeah. And when you think of, you know, Maslow's hierarchy of needs, the the first one is, you know, physiological, then safety, belonging and love. And it's not until you get those things met that you can even start getting to the next level, which is like understanding yourself, self actualization and, yeah, and and serving others like you can't even do that. You can't get to those levels until you're feeling safe and secure and taken care of. Yeah? So it's so important, so important. Cool, foundation, yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 41:33
foundation, for sure. I talk about it too. It's tending to that soil, right, so that the flowers can bloom Exactly, yeah. Do you have any so as we wrap up here, do you have any final thoughts for listeners? Can you Yeah? Do you have any final thoughts for listeners before we before I end with my real final question?

Angela 42:01
Angela, sure. Um, you know, I just want to, I just want to say that, you know, I've, we've chosen homeschooling this year. But I don't necessarily, I do not. I'm, I'm not a, I'm not, it's not a hill I'm going to die on. And I'm like, I'm rethinking this decision all the time, and I think you can be I think you can have deep connections with your kids, no matter where you choose to send them to school and no matter who's teaching them. I think what's important is you sharing yourself with your kids and teaching them, and that letting them teach you and being humble throughout that whole process. Love that. Yep, so good. I

Maren 42:45
don't know if I can top that, that's also good. Angela, I would just add, like, I just want to reiterate, probably what we talked about earlier, which is, you cannot compare yourself to everyone else out there, because they're doing their family service. And you know, like you, you need to do you so you have what's inside of you too to take care of your family and be the parent that your kids need. And it's different. It's going to be different than what everybody else is doing, and that's good, and your kids and your family is going to be served so much if you tap into that the most. So if that's homeschooling, great. If that's public schooling, whatever, whatever you are choosing to do, just make it like authentic, authentically yours. Love

Casey O'Roarty 43:32
that authentically yours. So in the context of following our children's lead, and really back to that whole thing about trust, I would love to know what joyful courage means to the two of you. There's no right answer. There's no right answer here, your homeschool minds will love that there's no right answer.

Angela 43:53
Right answer to this question, I would say that it's just having the courage to trust yourself and your child, and you know you know your child, and they're going to learn the most when they feel this connection with you. And it takes a lot of courage, I think, to to let go of all the noise around you and be able to trust that.

Casey O'Roarty 44:22
Thank you. Yeah,

Maren 44:25
Marin, do you have anything that's also good too? And I yeah, I think it's just having being confident in who you are be. And sometimes that just takes, that takes work. I think it takes work understanding who you are and realizing this is this is good. Like, who I am is good. And so, yeah, I think that's the courageous part of it. And then the joyful part of it, I feel like, is finding joy in the processes of everything you know, like, this is a process. It's not perfect, it's a process. So, like, if. You can find joy in that you are just going to you're going to find joy in so many things. Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 45:06
love that so much more. Where can listeners find your show and your groups and the work that you guys do in the world?

Angela 45:18
Yeah? Well, we are, we have a podcast, and you can find us on, you know, iTunes or Apple podcasts or any other podcast app. It's called homeschool unrefined. We have a website you can go to homeschool unrefined.com, and we're both. We're on Facebook and Instagram. If you search homeschool unrefined, you can find us there.

Casey O'Roarty 45:37
Awesome, great. Well, thank you both so much for coming on.

Unknown Speaker 45:40
We love thank you

Maren 45:42
so much for having us. Yes. Thank

Unknown Speaker 45:44
you, Casey,

Casey O'Roarty 45:47
yay. I love a good interview, and I love making new friends. And that's exactly how it felt being in conversation with Angela and Maren. And you know, I'm going to be on their show, I'm going to be on their show, so you'll have to listen to that as well. Thank you all for being here and supporting and I wanted to remind you that I have a little giveaway going on right now. I mentioned it last week during the solo show after going to see Glennon Doyle and her posse of empowering women speak, I was able to walk out with two copies of her book, Love warrior. And the really exciting thing is that I already have a copy of love warrior, so I am giving these copies away. And the way that you can qualify to possibly win one of these is to head on over to iTunes, search for joyful courage podcast, get into the rate and review and leave a review. I'm going to be choosing from all of those people that leave a review for my show, and picking two listeners to gift one of the copies of love warrior two. So head on over there and do that. You might be a winner if you are not in the live in love with joyful courage Facebook group. What are you waiting for? It's such a great place full of celebration and support for each other. Super wise parents in there, and the conversation is deep and it's thoughtful and it's encouraging and empowering. Over in Facebook, live in love with joyful courage. Please join us there. You can also find me on Facebook. My Business page is joyful courage. Instagram at joyful courage, Twitter at joyful courage. I am all around town. If you want to shoot me a private message. You can do that by emailing me at Casey at joyful courage.com join the newsletter list on my website, which is joyful courage.com I mean, come on. I'm here for you. Reach out. Reach out and let me know, feedback, questions, whatever you need. I am here for you. Thank you so much to my producer, Chris Mann, the man, the man with the plan, who helps me put together these shows and makes them sound so pretty for all of you. Thank you, Chris, appreciating you and everyone else. I will be back next week with a solo show. Can't wait. Have a beautiful, beautiful week with your family. Bye

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