Eps 114: Support for the New Sibling Transition with Sarah Rosensweet

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Casey O'Roarty 0:01
Hey, everybody, just jumping in before the start of this week's show. To let you all know that I am super excited I get to be in Portland on Sunday from 10 to four at gem studio. I will be leading the mother's journey there with all the local folks, as well as those mamas that are making the trek from up here in the Seattle area as well as around the state of Oregon. I am so excited to hold space this coming Sunday for the circle of mamas that show up, ready to go deep and to dive into the places that are really barriers keeping us from being the connected, conscious parent that we want to be, I am honored to get to guide this work. And if you are interested in finding out how to get yourself to Portland, or if you'd like to join me in Boise on November 4, head on over to joyful courage.com/ mother's journey. That's www dot joyful courage.com/ mother's journey. Sure do hope I see you there.

Joyful courage parenting podcast episode 114

Hey everybody, welcome back to the joyful courage podcast, a place for inspiration and information on the parenting journey. I am your host. Casey overrti, positive discipline trainer and parent coach. I am, as always, super thrilled that you're listening in. Be sure to stay on after the interview. I have some really special offers and calls to action that I do not want you to miss out on. If you find yourself laughing, taking notes and or excited about what you hear on the show today, do me a favor and pay it forward. Spread it around the world. Share this episode with your friends, your family, your neighbors, strangers, and all your social media, your sharing is the reason I'm able to show up for you each week, and I am so honored to do so. And don't be afraid to take people's phones and actually show them how to subscribe to the podcast. My guest today is Sarah rosensweet. Sarah is a peaceful parenting coach. She lives in Toronto with her husband and three big kids, ages 913, and 16. Sarah helps parents become the parents they want to be with a non punitive connection based approach that feels good and is helpful. Sarah is certified by Dr Laura Markham as an AHA peaceful parenting coach. She helps parents to enjoy their kids again. Hi Sarah, welcome to the podcast.

Sarah Rosensweet 3:05
Hi Casey. Thanks so much for having me.

Casey O'Roarty 3:07
You are so welcome. Will you please share a little bit about your journey of doing what you do?

Sarah Rosensweet 3:13
Sure. So I found this approach actually I didn't even know that it was an approach when I started doing it when my first son was toddler, because I found that everybody all of a sudden I, you know, I'd worked so hard to meet all his needs and and, you know, be the best mom that I could be. And then when he hit the toddler age, I found all of a sudden people were saying things to me like, don't let him manipulate you, and you've got to give him a consequence. And it just felt so crazy to me, like it felt like all of a sudden we were supposed to be on opposing sides. So I just did a little journey and found some some at you know, now I think this approach is getting much more common, but back then, 1516, years ago, it was a it was a bit unusual. So just found some differing voices and magazines and books, and I kind of just took it from there, and then, you know, raised my kids this way, and then about three years ago, I decided to make it my profession, and I got trained as a parenting coach. And I've just been so happy to be able to help parents really be in connection with their children and really just build a relationship and and I know you've got older kids too, and I think now we're really reaping the benefits of having teenagers that we love to be with and that we can trust. And you know, know that they've become really, really great people, not that they never make mistakes, but Right, right, right. No, it's

Unknown Speaker 4:34
real. Yeah,

Sarah Rosensweet 4:36
it's really. I mean, it's a lot of work on the front end, but then you really, you get your payback as they get older. Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 4:41
I totally feel the same way, and I really appreciate what you said about gosh, the people the voices of don't let them manipulate you as if a two year old somehow has superior skills in getting what they want. Hunt, right? And yeah, yeah, it's just bonkers to me. And you're and I am loving my big kids. I am loving 11 and 14. And yeah, it's still, there's eye rolls. And I think the biggest, the hardest part about parenting the kids as they move into adolescents and teens, in my experience so far, is just navigating my own fear. Yeah, not so much that they are showing up one way or the other. It's more just about like, oh my gosh, that that letting go and being okay with a bigger practice field for them. And we know what

Sarah Rosensweet 5:38
I always say it's like having teenagers is like taking a leap into the dark. Yeah, you just have to kind of hope that everything that you've done up until now, you know, they're gonna make good choices, and they'll come to you if they have problems and because you can't control them, you know they're and this is their this is their safety net years, where they still have you to fall back on. But pretty soon, they're gonna be adults and they're going to be out there in the world. So,

Casey O'Roarty 6:01
oh my gosh, yeah, you have a driver. You have a 16 year old. Is your 16 year old driving a car in the world? It's

Sarah Rosensweet 6:08
in Canada. You can only get your learners when you're 16, so he's still driving with us,

Casey O'Roarty 6:12
you Canadians, man, I wish we could take some lessons, because my daughter is on a countdown to 15, because that's when she gets to just start taking, you know, practicing, yeah, just like, oh my god, quit telling me the countdown. Yes, leaping in the dark, definitely. But today, we're not going to talk about teenagers. We are actually talking about the other end, the beginning, right? And how to support our children in welcoming a new sibling into the home. Many of us, parents, myself included, get caught off guard by the emotions and the behaviors that can show up during this time. So what we're talking about, listeners, I just made a huge jump from one thing to another is really about, you know, we have maybe a two or a three year old or maybe older. And, you know, we either decide or surprise, new baby enters the picture and and some really interesting dynamic shifts show up there. So this is what you're on to talk about, Sarah. So let's just start, start like with broad strokes. Why is this an interesting topic to you? Well, I

Sarah Rosensweet 7:22
guess, I think that you've already touched on it, which is that it's we're caught off guard. We're so excited about this new addition to our family, and we're so happy about having another child we've had. You know, we love our first child so much, and we're so excited to grow our family, but to our first child, this is actually a really horrible thing, and I love this story of it's actually from the siblings without rivalry book, the old classic. Yeah, they the authors say, imagine that your husband comes home one day and says, darling, our marriage is just so wonderful, and I love you so much that I've decided to go out and get us another wife. And the new wife comes home and she's younger than you are, and she's, you know, cuter than you are, and and everywhere you go, people say, Aren't you lucky? Look at her, and she's so cute. And, you know, I think that it's easy, easier for us to understand when we think about that analogy, because for our older child, they do feel replaced. They do feel that we've gone out and gotten a younger, cuter model, and they wonder, do they still love me? And I think that's really what is at the root of what we're talking about, is that that feeling of grief that every older child experiences, and I don't think that it's actually something that we talk about enough, or that we that we recognize, because it's so hard for us to imagine that, that this is something that's not a happy occasion for our older child and and it's so hard for us to be there with them in their mixed feelings, because that's really what it comes down to. They have mixed feelings. They you know, of course, they delight in the baby, and they laugh with the baby, and the baby smiles at them and watches them and and so they've got all this, you know, pride and love and joy, but also, really on a deeper level, they wish you'd never had that baby. They miss when it was just when they were the only apple of your eye and when they got all of the attention. So I think that's really at the root of it. You know, we are caught off guard because we we aren't expecting those big mixed feelings, and we aren't expecting the grief,

Casey O'Roarty 9:27
yeah, well, and something that I really wasn't expecting, even though I had read about the mama bear syndrome and the tendency for parents to push the older child away. And, you know, at that time, my daughter was two and a half, and she had been like, literally, in a sling on my breast for two and a half straight years, and yeah, and I just thought, there's no way that I'm going to want to push this little brand, you know, this my baby, my girl, the girl that. Me a mother away, and then I had my son, and it came on strong, you know, and not, I mean, it was, it was more, just like it wasn't so much pushing her away as it was. Here is this brand new human that I get to keep alive and fall madly in love with. And then there is this lumbering, gigantic, seemingly gigantic, right toddler who just seemed to get so clingy and so needy. And can't you see that I'm just and so that dynamic shift, I know, in retrospect, I learned, was also a part of of the behavior that showed up in our relationship? Well,

Sarah Rosensweet 10:44
I think it can be really shocking. I mean, I think it's a two part thing. I think it's, you know, I don't have any evidence to back this up, but my sense is that it's an evolutionary thing that if you if you didn't have some sort of feelings of, you know, I remember my first child, he all of a sudden didn't smell as sweet, and his skin didn't seem as soft, and he just didn't seem like my baby anymore. But I think that you would be in danger of rejecting your your next child if you didn't have that sort of like that biological drive to push them away from you a little bit. I don't know if that makes sense to you, but that's sort of always sort of what I what I put it down to, is that we need to, we need to be able to bond with the with the baby, and if all of our heart and body are taken up with the first child, there's not enough room for that bonding with the second child. But I also think that I know that I experienced this, and I think a lot of other moms that I've talked to have have agreed that you do you have a deep grief for that loss of that intense bond. I mean, not that your bond goes away, but but I felt a loss when I realized that, you know, that he didn't smell as sweet and his skin didn't seem as soft. I was really sad, and I was really blindsided by that. I'm, you know, when I had my third child, I I kind of knew to expect that, so it wasn't as hard. But I think that that, you know, not only do the first child grieve a bit, but we also grieve a bit for that only, that one and only intimate relationship.

Casey O'Roarty 12:13
Yeah, I think that makes sense. I think if it's very scientific, yeah, we'll just

Sarah Rosensweet 12:20
publish a paper on it. Perfect, perfect. But I think, I think it's also really a good opportunity for us to just look at those feelings and be and really, you know, you can use that as a way to just it won't if you, if you look at those feelings, you won't be so surprised if all of a sudden you feel your temper rising, or you feel that you have less patience if you do get in touch with those feelings and kind of look at where they come from and take a moment to feel them, I think that they won't come out as exasperation as much if we do recognize those feelings in ourselves.

Casey O'Roarty 12:53
Yeah, and just another opportunity right to recognize that what is happening internally for us is typically influencing what's happening externally in our relationships. And, you know, just another lesson in the parent journey that our kids bring us really, absolutely. Yeah, I love that. So what are some typical behaviors in your work with families? What are some typical behaviors that clients bring to you that are showing up when a new baby is introduced.

Sarah Rosensweet 13:30
Okay, so two, two big things, um, regression and aggression is what I see a lot. So regression is really, really typical, and don't worry, like, if this is happening to your child, really, really, don't worry if they regress. If they, you know, are toilet trained, and they start having accidents, or if they're, if they were sleeping through the night and they start waking up again, is completely normal to regress. And what that is, it's a response to overwhelm and the child, your child literally doesn't have the same capacity to be able to manage everything that they were managing, you know, a month or two months ago. So really, just tell you know, it's, it's one of those This too shall pass moments. Be as patient as you can. You know, don't make a big deal out of it. And especially, don't say you're a big girl now, or you're a big boy. Now you don't that's what's causing this, is that they know that they're a big girl or a big boy, especially, you know, in comparison the baby. So you really don't want to press that, because I think that makes it worse. If you're insisting, you know, you should be able to do this, just really take that time. And I know this is hard advice, because we're often so overwhelmed with the care of a new baby and less sleep and all that stuff, but baby, your older child, as much as possible, you know, pretend they're a baby, rock them like a baby, you know, pretend to breastfeed again, you know, sing baby songs to them. Really, really indulge that baby. Baby Ness, because that's what's going to let them feel nurtured and feel like they haven't lost their special spot in your heart. Yeah, and don't be afraid that you're stifling their independence either. Because I really believe that children have such a strong drive for independence that that they will when they're ready they do everything they need to do for themselves, and if they're asking for you to do things for them that you know they can do, it's because they need more nurturing and more connection with you, just like you know, if they were tired, you'd give them a nap, or if they were hungry, you'd give them some food. So really, really, just keep that in mind, that regression is normal and and as much as you can indulge it and and help them and pretend they're a baby that will help. And then the other thing that that you sometimes see is aggression, and aggression really comes from fear. So the fear that they're unloved, unwanted, unlovable, been replaced all of that stuff. And I know we're going to talk a little bit more about the emotional backpack, but they're literally acting out their bad feelings. So that the acting out is really they're acting out the bad feelings, and the cure for that is more connection and more empathy. As much as you can realize that my child is not giving me a problem. My child's having a problem, you know, turn, turn that around and look at them. You know, this misbehavior is a message to me. Someone said to me the other day, misbehavior is a mystery, and we have to find out the cause of the misbehavior. So they're really just trying to show you their pain. And as much as you can respond with empathy and and up the connection with them. I think that really helps.

Casey O'Roarty 16:43
I love that. And so I teach positive discipline and we and it's based in Adlerian theory, which is, behavior is movement in the direction of belonging and significance. So one of the quotes that gets passed around in my community is, misbehavior is really mistaken ideas and beliefs about how to belong and how to know that you matter. So in the con, and this is one of the places where we love to use the example of new baby to kind of drive that home, and it fits perfectly with what you're talking about. And that is, you know, everything's great. I'm an only I have everything that I need to feel secure in my belonging and significance. And then new baby is in the world, in the home, and, you know, older child, you know, use so we move from perception, which is, oh my gosh, everybody's busy with this baby, to interpretation, right, meaning making. And a lot of times there are two or three, and that's their life experience, filter that they're making meaning with around, you know, I'm not important, just like the things that you were saying. I'm not connected. And moving from interpretation into belief to belong in this family, you must be the baby. And then some choices from that belief could be, you know, act like a baby, which the regression Right? Or get rid of the baby aggression. Or there's a third that can happen, which is, you know, be a super helper, which I always laugh when I teach that in parenting class. I'm like, I don't know how many of you had that person, but I didn't you know, but apparently they're out there, and then, you know, in those moments, even though you know they feel clingy and and this is what I'm hearing you say, yes, they're regressing, or yes they're they're aggressive, but really what they're asking for, in the best way they know how, is to reestablish that connection? Yeah,

Sarah Rosensweet 18:43
absolutely, yeah. And Little People are not very good at figuring out how to get their needs met. No,

Casey O'Roarty 18:48
nor, I mean, teenagers are still working on that, yeah? Well, we all aren't to some totally, yeah, definitely, definitely, so, so, so I love to talk about it at in the context of shifting their beliefs, right about where, how do I fit in this family? And that's what I hear you talking about as well. So let's talk a little bit. You mentioned their emotional backpacks. So what are emotional backpacks? And what does it mean around like, how can we support them with that concept,

Sarah Rosensweet 19:22
sure. So emotional. Backpacks are okay. Picture you've had. You're having a terrible day at work. You know your your boss, you know it says you did the project wrong. Maybe one of your co workers says something mean to you. I don't you know, grown up stuff. Whatever happens at work, you've had a bad day, you're going to put all of those feelings into your metaphorical emotional backpack. That is. You're not going to sit at your desk and cry and process those feelings right then, but you're going to kind of sort of shut down a little bit until you can get home. And when you get home, if you're somebody who's pretty good. That emotional processing. You might talk to your partner, you might go for a run. You might, you know, meditate or write in your journal. You might just, you know, have a have a little cry about it, but you'll do something to process the feelings. If you don't, you'll stub your toe, you know, an hour after you get home from work and either burst into tears or start screaming and swearing, and those are the feelings coming out that you haven't processed. So that's the emotional backpack. Basically. It's where we put our feelings when it's not safe to feel them or process them. And you know your kids at school or at daycare or something, and they do the same thing, and they don't feel safe to process all their big feelings so they wait until you know. How many people do you know or this happens to probably happen to you, when your kids really, oh, they come home and have a meltdown because they've been holding it all together at school and waiting until it was safe to let all those big feelings out. So that's what the emotional backpack is. It's a place where we park all of our difficult emotions until it's safe to let them out, and if a child doesn't feel that it's safe to let them out or they're not given the opportunity. I mean, this is a whole other podcast topic, but meltdowns and tantrums are how kids process their feelings. Remind me to come back to laughter, because you can also process process through laughter, but those tears are healing, and when the meltdowns are coming up, that's the feelings that are bubbling up out of the backpack to be healed. So if your child, you know, if you tell your child, don't cry, stop that, you know, be a big girl. It's nothing to cry over. You know, often they're not crying when they cry over something little, like you've cut the toast wrong or the those are the wrong socks, or something that seems really unreasonable to us. It's actually just feelings from the backpack coming out and that they needed something to cry about to get those feelings out. So as much as you can welcome those feelings, like every time your child is getting upset about something, you remind yourself, this is, this is her backpack. She's She's emptying her backpack. These are the feelings that need to come out and just welcome all of those feelings and what happens. And this relates back to what I was talking about with aggression. Is if a child's not regularly given the opportunity to empty their backpack, they can become explosive. So the feelings are just held in there so tightly and packed down, and there's like a layer of anger on the top level of the backpack is, is anger and and it just comes out at, you know, that the unexpected moment, just your child can lash out, throw something hit by, you know, any of those sort of toddler up aggressive behaviors, and that is a sign to you that your child needs more opportunities to empty their backpack, and they also need more safety. They need more connection with you so that they feel safe enough to let the harder things out, the tender feelings that are underneath the anger, the sadness, the vulnerability, the jealousy, the fear that are in the backpack. So

Casey O'Roarty 23:06
I am I'm going to go back to something you said at the beginning. So great those moments and listeners, I hope you caught that right when they're crying about something that seems like no big deal. It's not about the socks, it's not about the toast. It's about all of the stored emotion that they've been hanging on to. And this is the piece right, the entry point, the or the exit point, I guess, where they are letting it out. And absolutely think that that's so great, because I think we get into a loop inside of our minds, like, oh, my gosh, it's just toast. And what does this mean about my child? And they can't, you know, I mean, we, like, have this crazy self talk. And I think that that is what fuels us when, when parents, you know, well meaning, loving parents, might be like, Oh, this is not a big deal. You don't need to cry about this

Sarah Rosensweet 24:01
and or when we Casey, when we go to great lengths like, Oh, let me cut that a different way. Or let me, you know, the whole song and dance, we're really robbing our children of the opportunity to feel all of their feelings and to to express their feelings. And so really, you know, that's where there's so much talk today about permissive parents and helicopter parents, and it really, I think that all comes from being uncomfortable with your child's difficult emotions, so you go to great lengths to pave the road in front of them. Maybe, you know, maybe you only have an hour a night when you come home and you between, you know, daycare and bedtime, and you don't want that hour to be spent with your child crying and unhappy, so you'll go to any lengths to, you know, make them happy. You can have this. I'll do this for you. You know, you could picture the parent jumping up and down and like, yes, grabbing different things and but really, that is actually robbing your child of the opportunity that they're looking for to cry. And they need to cry.

Casey O'Roarty 25:02
Yeah, thank you for bringing that into the conversation, because I think that that is so, so so important and then, but then you mentioned processing through laughter. So what does that look like?

Sarah Rosensweet 25:12
So what that looks like is get your child laughing every day, especially if you have a child who is prone to anxiety, and you know any when we look at children who need sort of this extra, extra boost and that you got to really have your parenting game on, is kids who are strong, willed, sensitive or anxious, those are the three areas that I see where you really have to put extra effort into helping them process their feelings. So get your child laughing every day. You know the Larry Cohen's book, The Art of rough housing is fantastic if you feel like rough housing challenge. That's, I think the sort of easiest way to get your kid laughing is to do sort of a rough housing game with them. And it doesn't have to be wrestling. That's why I love that book. There's all these different games, physical games, that you can play with your child. You know how people say I could laugh or I could cry. That's because we can process emotions through either of those things. So as much as you can get your child laughing, the less crying they'll have to do. So if you know your kids got a lot of pent up emotion after a day at daycare, get them come home and do 15 minutes of laughing with them. Really get them laughing, and you might not have to get the meltdown. Yeah.

Casey O'Roarty 26:22
Can we jump forward a few years? And what does this look like with, like, school age or adolescent kids, getting them laughing their tips in the art of roughhousing? No, I

Sarah Rosensweet 26:33
think I would not want to try and rough house with either my boys, they would just crush me. You know, I still do. My daughter is, she'll be 10 next week, and I still do one of our favorite things, our nightly rituals, is I make her into food, which, if you don't know, but I mean by that, like, there's a book called Pizza Pizza, I know it's a great book by William stag, where they make their child into a pizza. If you want to put in your show notes, I can send you a fun video, definitely, anyhow, so you actually, like, lay your child out on the bed and, you know, rub them out like dough, and you sprinkle the sauce on and the cheese, and they just laugh so hard. And so my daughter's almost 10, and she still loves to do that every day, and she really, really gets laughing. And I think with kids who are older than that you, as you get older, you get what much better at processing your feelings through words, so you don't need to laugh and cry as much. I mean, your your 14 year old can come home and talk to you about the hard time they had at school and so la Of course, laughter and crying is still important, but I trust me, like I've tried to tell my 16 year old that he just needs to have a good cry, and maybe he does, and maybe he doesn't, but it's certainly not in front of me, right? But what

Casey O'Roarty 27:48
a great message to send him, like it's part of life, but that's been a big conversation in my community around our boys and and the messages that they're getting about emotions, right? I mean, we don't have to go there, because that's all again, a whole nother podcast. But, yeah, you know, I mean, it is, we have got to, we have got to change up the way that we're raising boys, absolutely to save the world. It's, it's not a, it's not a small thing, well,

Sarah Rosensweet 28:15
and that's, you know, when you see adults, I'm sure everybody can right now, think of some adult they know who has a very full backpack. Oh, yeah, they're explosive. You know, the people you cut off in traffic and they have this tirade and scream at you, and, you know that's a backpack issue. Or the world

Casey O'Roarty 28:31
leaders that need to be emptying out their suitcases, right? It's not even a back point backpack at this point. Yes, yeah,

Sarah Rosensweet 28:38
yeah, yeah. So get your child laughing every day and and you'll find that that really helps them to just feel more calm and happy and be able to process those hard emotions. My

Casey O'Roarty 28:49
son is gonna totally let me turn him into a pizza I can't wait. Okay, good. So, bringing it back to the sibling transition, what are some you know, and we know that this is all happening and, and, you know, granted, well meaning parents, we read the books like we can do everything quote right in the setup, and it's still a two or a three year old making meaning out of what they see, right? So, so don't, I don't want anyone to feel like guilty or they've done something wrong, we can just up the likelihood. We can always up the likelihood that it's a smoother transition, right? And so what are some of the tools that you offer parents in that, in that thinking ahead towards that transition? Okay? So

Sarah Rosensweet 29:32
I think welcoming mixed feelings, you know, making sure that they have one on one time with you, and even if your child's not expressing mixed feelings, if you think that they're having a hard time, you could even say something like, I wonder, if you miss when it was just, you know me and you and daddy, I wonder is such a good phrase because you're not putting you're not saying, Oh, this must be it. You must be feeling this way. I wonder, opens the door and they might be afraid to express those mixed feelings, because everywhere they go, everyone's telling them, oh, Aren't you lucky. You're such a great big brother. And nobody's saying, Oh, you poor kid. I really feel for you, you know. So if they're particularly, you know, aware child, they're going to be they're going to know the messages you should not feel angry or upset about this baby. You should not feel sad. So really opening the door for that, I think, is really helpful to ease the transition. Also, I think that, you know, actually tell your child, I will never love anyone more than you. You know, I think they worry about that she loves the baby more so. And I think that just as much as possible, just really dig deep for that empathy and recognize how hard it is, how hard it is for your older child,

Casey O'Roarty 30:49
yeah, and they need to hear it in words and in action, right? So I love that you brought up special time, because that's, you know, my next question was, it's so interesting, and I'm sure you have the same experience when parents come to you and they've got, you know, a young child, and they come and express the behavior that's challenging in the moment, and then they just kind of offhandedly mention, like, Yeah, and I've got this eight month old, and everything's fine there, and it's like, Oh, of course, this is the behavior that you're seeing.

Sarah Rosensweet 31:19
I often ask people, do you have a baby by chance? And they're like, why? Yes, I do have a baby,

right? Don't you think that the terrible twos are probably more about that people often have a second child when their first child is two?

Casey O'Roarty 31:38
Well, we need to stop calling it that, because the threes and the fours are no picnic either.

Sarah Rosensweet 31:44
No, no. And I think two year olds are wonderful, but I really often wonder, like, yes, it's a challenging age, but made more challenging by the fact that often people will have another baby when their first child is two.

Casey O'Roarty 31:55
Yes, absolutely, absolutely. And do you feel like, I mean, because sometimes the you know, younger sibling might be even 18 months or two years old, and there's still that that, you know, I think sometimes you hear the word they've been the older child's been dethroned or, you know, but it's that shift in belief around, how do I fit? And then after time, if it's not addressed it, you know, they kind of fall into this role. Well, now I'm just the kid who is a problem,

Sarah Rosensweet 32:27
right? And I think that that comes when the parent finds it hard to find that empathy and understand where the kids coming from. Because if you don't have that view, if you don't have that mindset, you would see your older child as a problem, yeah, you know. And the behavior is challenging, and if you can shift it to what I said before, is that they're having a problem, right? Then I don't know if you would get, you know, I doubt you would get that same the kid who, who's making meaning by saying I'm a bad kid, because I think that starts with the parent saying you're a bad kid, right? Oh yeah, definitely, even if they're not saying that outright, but you know that just the lack of the lack of understanding and empathy can lead a child to believe there's something wrong with me. Yeah, so, and I don't, and I also, when you said it can be down the road, I think different. I think it's important to remember that some kids might have the hardest time when your second child is a newborn, and some might have the hardest time when the baby starts walking. And it's really depends on, you know, depends on your family and your children. And there are different you might go through the first six months thinking, Oh, this is fine. But then as soon as the baby starts crawling, oh my gosh, you know,

Casey O'Roarty 33:40
right, getting into the older siblings things. Yeah, I love that you mentioned siblings without rivalry. What a great book that is. I would encourage everybody to get their hands on that book. It

Sarah Rosensweet 33:51
is a good book, but if I could just say that even better book is Laura markham's Peaceful parents, happy siblings, siblings without rivalry. Can I? Can I can I talk about sibling rivalry for just a second? Yes, siblings without rivalry was groundbreaking for when it was written, but the authors really had they and I was a child of the 70, so I can attest to this. The siblings were left to work things out themselves, which often means that the dominant sibling ends up getting their way because they don't actually know how to work things out. So if you just say, you know, it's better, better to let them work it out than for the parent to come in and make a pronouncement. But even better than that is what Laura Markham writes about in her book, which is how to help the siblings meet, basically being a mediator to help them work out their own solution so they find a win, win solution that works for both of them. Does that make sense? Yeah? Instead of yeah, you're not, you're not solving a problem for them. You're not leaving it, leaving them to solve it themselves, but you're helping them speak to each other, just like a labor union mediator would between the the boss and the. Employees like they're presenting you help them each present their side to each other. And how you can do that for a baby who doesn't talk is you can kind of speak for the baby. Oh, you know, look at his face. I think that he wants his rattle back. So you're not saying to the older child, give him back his rattle, but you're saying, look at the baby's face. I think he wants that back. So you're you're speaking for the baby who can't speak for himself, but as they get older, you are helping each child to speak to each other. And then, you know, you can say, it looks like we have a problem. Who has an idea for how we can solve this?

Casey O'Roarty 35:32
Yeah, and actually, I had Dr Laura on the podcast, so listeners, Episode 37 Dr Markham is here, and she, you know, talked about all that, and I feel like she talked to just about being like a coach, right? Because I think there is a time when we need to step out of the conflict, but not before we've actually helped our kids develop tools and skills for, absolutely, for navigating the conflict, right? So,

Sarah Rosensweet 35:59
yeah, hopefully you do it enough times and over the, you know, years of the early childhood that someday you'll be in the kitchen and you'll overhear them saying, Well, you know, I actually think this. And what if we tried this? And, you know, you they'd start to do it themselves.

Casey O'Roarty 36:14
And it's funny, I was just talking about this in my membership program, but sometimes I have to, it's like a cycle for me, like, I stay out of it. I stay out of it. Then I slowly creep back in, and then I get to say, Oh, hey guys, I just want to apologize I've been way too involved in your problem solving. So I'm going to step out. And that lasts for a while until I kind of creep back in. And then I realize it, it's really hard, especially

Sarah Rosensweet 36:37
because we often get attached to our own story of what's happened. Like, yeah, we can so clearly see, like, who's right and who's wrong and what they need to do to fix it, but that doesn't help them develop the skills themselves, for sure, for sure. So

Casey O'Roarty 36:49
for listeners that are listening to this conversation that we're having, Sarah and thinking, oh my gosh, I'm a totally in this right now, and maybe they have been sending realizing that they've been sending messages they they didn't mean to be sending to their older child and and in realizing that that older child is simply responding to this new dynamic, this new world with the new sibling, what are some baby steps that you would offer for them to move towards deeper relationship and kind of cleaning up, maybe the mess. Well,

Sarah Rosensweet 37:24
I think special time, and we haven't. We didn't talk about that too much, but maybe you've talked about it on your podcast before, but instituting special time, like 15 minutes a day of prescribed time with your child, where you go into their world, you know, it's not making cookies or going out for a hot chocolate, but you're actually joining them in their world of imagination and play, you know, letting them, letting them lead the way for you, and really getting into their world. So 15 minutes a day of that with your older child will do wonders for helping you repair the relationship that may have suffered since the birth of the younger child, and also really just your own mindset shift, shift of seeing the misbehavior as a signal to you and looking for positive intent, like you talked about. They're trying to they're trying to make meaning and it and they're not so good at figuring out you know how to get their needs met, but really, just look for the positive intent of your older child. And in also, I had one thing that I wanted to say, which is, if you look at your if you look at your language, this is actually just like kind of a tip, which I think could be really helpful when you have to, when you're busy with the baby, instead of saying to your child, I, you know, I can't help you right now. I'll help you after I'm done feeding the baby, if you shift your language to something that doesn't involve a baby, like, I'll help you when my hands are when my hands aren't busy, or I'll help you trying to think of another example. But basically, you know, when the baby wakes up, you know, you can say your brother is, your brother is going to be looking for you instead of, oh, I have to stop this, this play, and go and get the baby right. But, you know, always try and reframe it so that the baby isn't always messing everything up.

Casey O'Roarty 39:16
I love that. I love that. It's amazing what small tweaks in language can do both for us and in our come from, but also in how it's received by our kids. Thank you. Yeah, that's awesome. So in the context of the sibling transition time and the sleep deprived parent, right? What does What does joyful courage mean to you?

Sarah Rosensweet 39:41
I think that two things come to mind. One is putting aside our own story of of worry and negativity of our child, and just trusting that that love is enough, you know, really just trusting in the love that we have and not getting attached to the worry and the fear. I think. Takes a ton, ton ton of courage, and also just to recognize that what you're doing is so hard. You know, it's amazing that how many people do have more than one child, right? Because it is hard. It's hard work, yeah? Oh,

Casey O'Roarty 40:16
thank you. I love that. That's beautiful. So share with the listeners about where they can find you and what your offers are out in the world. Sarah,

Sarah Rosensweet 40:24
sure, well, I, as you mentioned before, I'm a coach. I work with people one on one virtually, so Skype or phone. So I do offer a free 20 minute short console, and there's an application for that on my website if anyone wants to have a quick chat. I also my website is Sarah rosensweet.com, S, A R, A, H, R, o, s e n, s, W, E T. I have a Facebook group that's called peaceful parenting with Sarah rosensweet. If anyone's interested in being in a really safe space peaceful parenting group. It's a really nice, supportive group of parents. And I just launched a couple of weeks ago, a free e course of how to stop yelling at your kids, which is really, even if you're not a yeller. There's so much in here about emotion. It's a 2121 day, one email every day. It's totally free, and you can sign up for that on my website as well. Maybe you could put a link to that sign up page. Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 41:25
I'll put links to all of those listeners. Links to everything will be in the show notes. Definitely. Great. Yay. Well, Sarah, thank you so much for coming on the show. It was so lovely to be in conversation about this. I love talking about this little period of time because for me, it was so enlightening to learn more about what was actually happening versus what I could see at the surface level. So thank you.

Sarah Rosensweet 41:49
You're welcome. And I think that that hope I'd like to leave everybody with is that that it's really it is really hard, but there's a lot you can do to make it easier on yourself and and on your kids, like a lot of the things that we talked about, and if you can only remember two things, empathy and connection, those two things are going to carry you through, like, if you forget all the tips and tricks, just remember empathy and connection, because those are really the two big ideas I think, that we need when we're in this time. Trey,

Casey O'Roarty 42:15
yes, love it. Thank you. You're welcome. Ooh, such a great conversation. And I think that so many of us just are surprised by what happens when that second child arrives, and really grateful that Sarah would come on in and talk about that with me. I also want to let you know that in a couple days, actually, Thursday, October 19, Sarah is leading a virtual workshop about bringing home new baby and introducing new baby to the family. So if you are interested in that, go to her website, www, dot Sarah rosensweet.com, on the navigation bar, head on over to workshops. Click on introducing new baby, and you'll see a list of her virtual or in person workshops, and you can register right there. So check that out. I'm sure that she would appreciate it. You Oh my gosh, you guys, I'm so excited. I don't know how many of you follow me on Instagram. Who follows me on Instagram? You should I mean, come on head over there. I'm at joyful, underscore, courage. And I post all sorts of things, different things that I post on Facebook. Some of them are the same things that I post on Facebook, but you know, it's just another playground for us to connect. So head over there and follow joyful courage. And if you do, you will see that I'm super excited about this new product that I created called monthly intention cards. And so what I've done is I've created a set of 31 cards, and on each card is a word or a phrase that exists as an intended way of being. And you can use these cards however you want. One of the ways that you can use them is you can pick a card every day, and you can practice really embodying that intention in your family and with your family. My goal with these cards is just to support parents in the practice of being who they want to be on the parenting journey, which, hey, guess what? Life gets super busy. We get distracted. There's places to go and people to see and appointments to be late for, and sometimes inside of that, we forget that how we be really matters. So I've created these cards, and I'm super excited about them. And. So go on over to Instagram. I'm going to be talking about them more in my Instagram story, and you can follow me there. And if you are thinking, Where do I get my hands on these cards, you can head on over to joyful courage.com/intention cards. Joyful courage.com/intention, cards. My hope is, as I record this, which is now last week, when you're listening, that they have arrived and that they will be ready to be purchased. And if they haven't arrived yet, then I'll have a little note there that says, hey, soon. Check back. All right, so check that out. I'm always looking for new and different ways of supporting you and being that conscious parent and being that loving, positive, gentle parent that you want to be, and this is just my latest attempted thought. So check it out. Big, huge. Thanks, as always, to my producer, Chris Mann. Chris Mann is the man thank you for all you do to make the show sound great, and all of my listeners, I love you people, and I'm you. You all are listening, and you've heard me talk about the live in love with joyful courage group, and you keep showing up, and it's so fun. Thank you to all the new members of the live in love with joyful courage group. It's so fun to see you there and to get to know you. If you haven't joined that group and you happen to be on Facebook, come play with us. It's a really supportive, safe space for growing and supporting and celebrating our parenting journey, which, holy cow, folks, it is on, right? It's on, so see you when I see you. Big, huge love. Keep the feedback. Come in and I'll be back next week with a solo show. Bye.

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