Eps 147: Empowered Stepmothering (and mothering in general…) wth Nathalie Savell

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Casey O'Roarty 0:00
Music. Welcome to the joyful courage podcast, my friends, yes, a place to be inspired, informed and hopefully entertained on the parenting journey, I'm your host. Casey arordi, parent coach, positive discipline trainer, and even more importantly, mother to two children who teach me every single day about how to practice showing up in a way that is helpful, connected and humble, who also point out when I am not showing up that way, when we choose into joyful courage, we are choosing into rejoicing in the opportunities for self growth and discovery that exist on the parenting journey. Yes, I did say rejoicing in those opportunities, and it's work, but so worth it. The path we are searching for is in our practice. Super grateful you're here to practice with me. Thank you so much for being a part of the community. Enjoy the show. Hey everybody. I just wanted to pop in before we get to the interview this week and let you know that I have a really exciting promo for the very beginning of June, you're only going to be hearing this promo one time, because this is an opportunity for you not only to get really powerful support for long term shifts and growth on the parenting journey, but also to score an hour of one on one coaching with me, I am talking about the living joyful courage membership program. It is an ongoing program. It's a monthly subscription. And for everyone that signs up to be a part of the membership before June 8, which is this coming Friday, you get also a complimentary one on one call with me, so I want you to check it out. Okay? Joyful, courage.com/living. JC will get you to the web page that has more information about the program and how to sign up to be a member. Don't take it from me. Take it from all the people that have been through the program. It's community. It's tools and skill building. It's teasing it apart, trying and failing, trying again, learning from mistakes. It's all the good stuff. Www, dot joyful courage.com/living-jc, will get you to the main page. Can't wait to see you. Hey, listeners, I am so excited to introduce today's guest, Natalie. Savelle. Natalie and I connected when she interviewed me for her empowering stepmoms Summit, and we totally hit it off. Natalie is a holistic psychotherapist, a certified holistic health coach and a certified stepmom coach. She sees psychotherapy clients dealing with anxiety and life transition challenges, relationship issues and spiritual dis ease in person, via video chat and through walk and talk sessions in Baltimore, Maryland, I'm really curious about the walk and talk sessions and coaches stepmoms virtually to support them in going from overwhelm, confusion, stress and resentment to confidence, clarity and connection. She is passionate about supporting people to be their best selves, heals what needs to be healed and create an authentic life. She believes strongly in the mind, body, spirit connection, and uses that in her approach and all of her services. She lives outside of Baltimore with her three year old son, eight year old stepson, part time, and 10 year old pug mix as well as her significant other. Hi, Natalie, welcome to the podcast.

Nathalie Savell 4:00
Hi. Thanks so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here. Yay.

Casey O'Roarty 4:04
I'm so excited to have you. Will you please share a little bit more with the listeners about your journey to doing what you do?

Nathalie Savell 4:11
Sure. So I guess it started with actually my health coaching certification, which I got probably eight years ago at this point, and I knew I wanted to be of service to people and help with the healing process. And I knew that I believed in the mind body connection, like I just, I don't know, I just had this sense that that was super important. I'd gotten into meditation for a while, and so I knew that that was important. I spent a bunch of time at the Omega Institute. That was super inspiring to me. And so I saw the Institute for Integrative Nutrition, so I got introduced to that by someone that I met, actually at a workshop. So I did that program. It was like a six month program. It was pretty eye opening, lots of introductory. Stuff to all different kinds of healing modalities. And at the time, I was struggling with my own more physical health issues. So I was I had suffered for a long time, struggled with binge eating disorder, and so I think that's what particularly drew me to that program. So I did a bunch of coaching stuff through that, and then I got my mask. Ended up going to get my Master's in actually pastoral counseling from Loyola University, which isn't what it sounds. It's a little bit confusing. It's a spirit. People are like, what are you learning to counsel sheep out in the pastor? Or like, are you going to be a priest? And I'm like, No, it's neither of those two things. It's just a Spiritual Integration into the psychotherapy process. So I'm a licensed psychotherapist, and, you know, we took classes like the theology of healing and stuff like that. So it kind of looked at like people's how people's spirituality is affected and affects their mental health and well being. So that was what drew me to that program, and then from there, gosh, it's been a long journey, but most recently, I obtained my full licensure, and then I realized that I wanted to really have a flexible lifestyle to be able to be, I mean, essentially, the best person I could be for my son and my stepson And my family and the life that I was creating. So I was like, I cannot do nine to five. Like, let me figure out how I'm gonna make this work. So I started my private practice. I started it like five years ago, but I really started going for it a couple years ago, and so now, yeah, so that brought me to here, where I do, I have this amazing lifestyle where I see clients three days a week, and my son goes to preschool three half days, and I have, you know, a full day and two half days with him during the week, which is amazing. And, yeah, I get to support people, you know, as you mentioned in my bio, in all different kinds of ways. So in person with mental health issues, and then people, usually my stepmom clients, are a little bit higher functioning, like they might not necessarily go to a therapist, but they need some support in that specific area. And since I'm a stepmom, I decided to focus on that niche, because I knew how challenging it was. Even after all my degrees and certifications and my personal growth experience, I got into a stepmom role, and was super challenged by it myself, and it took a lot of work and intention and commitment for me to really grow from that and learn from it. So I thought it would be a great niche, and it has been. It's been amazing, and yeah, it continues to be a learning and growing process as I keep keep going.

Casey O'Roarty 7:42
Yeah, I totally hear you around working with people whose experiences you've had. I'm noticing that, you know, when my kids were younger, I really was not feeling good about doing any like, teenage parent education, because I really felt like I don't really know what it's like, or I think I know what it's like, and now that I'm here, I'm like, holy cow, I had no idea. And you know, now I'm feeling really good about reaching out and creating some offers for parents of teens. But there's something to be said for walking in the shoes of the client.

Nathalie Savell 8:21
Yeah, I really do believe in that, and the more life challenges that I've had. Like, I'm not that old. I'm 33 but I think that the stepmom challenge actually was one of the things that has taught me the most and has made me a more effective therapist for you know, even my clients who aren't stepmoms and who maybe even aren't moms, but just learning about your like using your own experience to learn about the human experience in general is so I think it's the best way to learn and the best way to be able to support other people, for sure. Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 8:50
I love that. And in trance, in the transformation world, and like experiential learning, it's it's rarely about the actual activity. It's often about how you intersect with the activity and and I think that, you know, we could put parenting, step parenting, adoptive parenting, we could slip that in for the word activity. And it's like, it's not really about that. It's about, how are you interacting with it? How are you like, what's showing up for you? Where are your places of healing that are coming to the surface. And you know, you said, you said mind body connection, and we throw that phrase out often, but you know, I don't want to assume that everybody has a really good handle on what that even means. Can you kind of tease that apart a little bit?

Nathalie Savell 9:38
Yes, I'm so happy to thank you for asking. So I didn't say this in my bio, but I'm actually also a certified yoga teacher. I'm like, a total junkie when it comes to certifications and personal growth. So I'm like, What can I do next? So I do have that I was actually pregnant when I got that certification, so I was like, exactly a nine month program, and I found out. Like, a week into it that I was pregnant, and then I brought my baby, he was, like, a few days old, to the graduation ceremony. So that was super cool. And I've never really gotten into teaching, but it did definitely inform, like, continue to keep informing me in my what I already believed. And my most favorite way to talk about this is when I've worked with physical therapy clients, they understand the healing process from a physical perspective, and I can apply what they know to the mental and emotional perspective too. So like, it's all just so interconnected. So they see clients with a physical wound that's been ignored for years, usually, and that used to be pretty small, and then after the years that it was ignored, it got worse and worse, and then it's become debilitating, and they go to a physical therapist, right? So the same thing happens in mental therapy, mental health therapy, where people get an emotional wound, something that happened maybe earlier in their childhood or even later on, and they kind of ignore it, or think it's not that serious. And then it gets bigger and bigger until it becomes debilitating and starts interfering with their everyday life. And then they go to mental health therapy. So that's just like one really small example. But I also think that, you know, there's some interesting parallels with the body and the mind. Like I think me, for example, I'm super flexible. My body is, like, just naturally, very, very flexible. In yoga, I can do all the super flexible poses. I was a gymnast younger, and I just, I could do splits and whatever, and I still have, like, an amazing amount of flexibility. But if I'm not really careful, I will hurt my joints, because I don't have the strength that, like, keeps my flexibility from being damaging, like my knees can hyperextend and my back can go out if I do bridges without really working on my core strength. And that's the same way in my life too. Like I'm very flexible and laid back as a person, and something I have to continually strengthen is my boundaries and structure for myself and making sure that I'm holding myself in a place that's going to be strong enough to withstand how flexible and laid back I tend to naturally be. So yeah, those are just a couple of the ways that I like to explain it in ways that are super understandable for people. Does that answer your question? It

Casey O'Roarty 12:18
does, and it makes me think about something we talk about in positive discipline classes, which is an activity called Think tree, because one of the pillars of positive discipline is kindness and firmness at the same time. Which is not necessarily something that is modeled in very many places, right? So it's for a lot of parents, myself included, it bumps us up against. Well, I can do kind and I can do firm, but what does both at the same time look like? And so we actually take people and clients of mine who are listening, are familiar with this. We take people through the process of, what does a firm body feel like, right? And so finding rigidity in the body really tightening everything up. And listeners, if you want to play with this with your friend or your partner, this is a really powerful experiential activity. So one person has the opportunity to just tighten up everything, and the other person gives a small push, and you just notice what happens. And for some people, they kind of timber over, right? Or there is an immediate, like, pushback in that firmness, right? So there tends to be two different ways. And then we and then the next offer is, you know, find that really loose body, that really flexible body, like, overly loose, right, like there's no skeletal structure holding you up, and you're just kind of standing there. And then the same partner gives another gentle push, and, you know, typically you fall over.

And so then we prompt that same volunteer to find their tree, which is really about, you know, feeling their feet on the ground, connecting with their roots, connecting with their values, connecting to what they want most, which is a respectful relationship with their children, mutually respectful, right? And that's the mighty trunk, and then the top of the body is about flexibility. It's about movement. It's about meeting our kids where they're at, right? Because we talk about mutual respect, as respect for the child, while also respecting yourself and the situation. So instead of like, well, you respect me and I'll respect you. It becomes slightly different, right? And that's really the embodiment of this. Is this, think tree exercise, and what you notice is, when that same person gives the same amount of pressure, you can move the upper body without losing your footing, without losing your grounding, by, you know, continuing to re. Main in your values and in your foundation, and it's similar to what you were talking about, right? But it's flexibility with boundaries. It's flexibility. It's kind and firm,

Nathalie Savell 15:11
right? That's amazing. I love that. I can kind of even get a sense for that, just like thinking about it in my body too. And I just love that so much. That's awesome. And that's where healing and growth and change happens. It's actually an energetic, emotional experience, right? So, like, if I want to show up in leadership with my kids, that's how I think about it. A lot. Like my own kind of mantra is, like, am I showing up in leadership right now? Like, as a respectful leader, that's kind of what I try to live into. And so it's like, I have to feel that in my body to be showing up that way. It can't just be an intellectual exercise where I'm like, Yeah, I think that sounds nice, right? I have to feel like what it would feel like to be a respectful leader, right? So, and that's more about like, who you're being rather than what you're doing, yeah, I think which is so much more important when it comes to any kind of healing or parenting or leading or teaching, right? Yeah, yeah, I

Casey O'Roarty 16:03
love that. Oh my gosh, we, did we talk about this when I was on the side? Oh, my God, this is like, we're opening up a whole new area of I'm loving this so. And the other thing that comes up as I listen to you is also way of being I think we get in we're short sighted when it's like, just tell me what I'm supposed to say, right, right? And because that's it, without the being, the doing doesn't matter what you do, right? And so when we're in that leadership role, right, when we're really in our foundation and in our values, it's energetically, it's like an experience. It's so much more inviting, it's so much more respectful of our child, so that even when we lose it, or maybe don't do say what we're later, like, oh, great, even if that happens, there's this, this energetic environment of mutual respect and love, and the bounce back is so much quicker. I love that, yeah.

Nathalie Savell 16:57
And it is like a path, right? I think of it as, like a path, so you fall off and you just get back on. And I like what you're saying, that it does, it creates that environment so it becomes easier and easier to get back on once you've, like, kind of established the setting. Yeah, right, because

Casey O'Roarty 17:12
there's no perfect moral right and beings, yeah. But actually, what I brought you on to talk about is I know stop. Okay, man, I could totally just continue on this tangent, another show. But what I so you have both a stepchild, and I think that all of this Mind Body stuff, you know, creating this energetic environment, it all applies to to our main topic, which is Step parenting, you have both a step child and a biological child, what have you experienced as differences between those two roles? Or is there two roles?

Nathalie Savell 17:48
Yeah, just tell us about definitely. Is two roles? Yeah? Um, I think that before I had my own son, I was very confused about, like, what was okay and what wasn't for me, it was, it was very confusing, and I hadn't really dove in into the parenting end of personal growth, and, like, started looking at my triggers and all the stuff, all the work that I've done now. But I find that well, with the steps, step child, like, for me, at least, there's so many other influences that I don't necessarily agree with, like, I don't necessarily agree with how he was raised before I came into the picture. I don't necessarily agree with everything that his dad does now, even though we're parenting a child together, there's much more of, like, a partnership in parenting our own child, because we started that together, like we, you know, got pregnant together, and we talked about it the whole pregnancy, and we kind of planned things out and talked about what we learned, like what he learned from his previous experience, and it's been much harder for him to make changes just because he's learned stuff with his son than it has for our son. So, you know, he has that influence of the kind of established way that their relationship is, that I don't always think is the best way, of course, like we always think that we have all the answers, and that works out like way, even less so than as a mom, right? Like as a mom, it doesn't always work out in partnership with someone right. We have to kind of use both perspective and use both styles to come to some sort of agreement and team work, but with the stepson, like you know, he has his mom, right? So, so I'm not the mom. He has his own moms, and she's doing things that I don't agree with and that I don't approve of, and so he brings that into our house, and while we can have different rules, I just find that I'm so I'm not the disciplinarian with my stepson, that hasn't worked out the way that we have just our personalities. I think the parenting style, style differences between me and his dad, I tried to be the disciplinarian at the beginning, and I would like, jump all over everything that was happening and try to, like, fill in the gaps that I thought were needed and necessary. Right? And it just didn't work out. We didn't have the foundation of connection that you have with a natural kid that enabled that to be kind of a smooth operation. So what I tell my stem on, so what I work on myself and now, like, I am more involved now than I was at the beginning. Or, you know, I had to kind of back off and kind of like reorient and really work on intentionally building a connection with him, and that's my major focus. Like something that was so challenging for me and figuring out my role was I'm not his mom. It isn't working out for me to treat him like I would if I was babysitting and in charge of him. It's not really working out for me to just there was a bunch of ways that didn't work, so I had to really figure out my role. And what I've come to is that I'm a positive female mother figure in his life. And so how can I have a positive impact on him while not being fully responsible for him? Because I can control so little in his life. I don't decide what school he goes to. I don't decide if he goes to therapy or not. I don't decide if he, you know, you know, my significant other will take my input, but I don't make the ultimate decision. Him and his and the mom of my stepson make the ultimate decision. So there's just so many things, and with my son, it's completely different. I basically am like, setting up his life, right? Like I get to curate his life, I get to curate what activities he does, how many activities he does, how you know, just like everything about it. And so it's just such a different it's really taught me about control, and my attachment to control, and like, oh, girl. I mean, parenting does that too, but I think that parenting does it to an even further degree, because there's so many other factors. There's the grandmothers that are also impacting and usually, if there's been a divorce, the grand oftentimes, the grandparents do step in and take more of a role, so they feel more ownership and more responsibility over the now step kid, right, once the partner is remarried. So the differences are just, yeah, it's just like, an exacerbated version of, like, not having control, yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 22:03
oh my gosh. And like, learning to

Nathalie Savell 22:05
just be, like, Who do you want to be for this kid? I want to be a healthy adult female role model and motherly figure. I want to be here for him regardless of what's going on for him. Like, I want our household to be consistent and to be loving and open and warm. I want him to feel good here, right? So those are the things that I have to really focus on, time and time again, if I do get carried away with, like wanting to parent him and wanting to control everything about him, yeah, it's like stepping back. So, so, yeah, there have been some major differences for me, for sure. So

Casey O'Roarty 22:41
how long were you step parenting before you became pregnant with your other son? Let's

Nathalie Savell 22:46
see, it was about two to three years. I think, okay,

Casey O'Roarty 22:50
so you're in that role, and then you have your son, which I think probably is one of those, like, oh. So were you able to, like, did you have an experience where, you know, because I'm totally familiar, through my own experiences of the like, oh shit, I have no control, right? I thought I did, and I really want to. And, you know, through, just through the parenting of the teenager situation, did you have a moment where you really felt like, okay, like, new perspective around the whole mothering experience, like in the context of stepmothering when you're when you had your bio child, what was that? Oh my gosh, nice, yeah.

Nathalie Savell 23:33
Oh my gosh, yes. Like, so like, Casey things, I used to literally, like, lecture my boyfriend about I do now with my son, and I think it's perfectly fine. And when I was like, on the outside looking at them, I was like, Oh my gosh, that's so wrong. Like, how can you lay with your this is so ridiculous, and I'm even a little bit embarrassed to say this. But he was after, you know, the kid had gone through a divorce, you know, not a very amicable divorce, and his dad would lie with him to go to sleep at night when he was three or four. And I thought this was, like, such a major problem, and that he was never going to be able to go to sleep by himself.

Casey O'Roarty 24:09
And all people who have, haven't had kids and jump in like that, it's like, oh, okay,

Nathalie Savell 24:14
right, exactly. But I didn't know that. I thought I was so right. I, you know, I had a master's degree in therapy, like I thought I was, you know, I knew a lot. So once I became a mom, I kind of got like, oh my gosh, yes. It was like a huge awakening for me, of like, well, one like, the love that my boyfriend felt for his son. You know that, like, just trumps everything else. Sometimes you just, you know, you love them so much that it influences your behavior and your decisions a lot. Yeah, and I, like, didn't understand that. It sounds so simple, like obvious, but I didn't, I just didn't have the experience or the wherewithal, you know, to really get that. So that was hugely, hugely awakening for me. You. Yeah, and there's just so many other ways that it's definitely, it definitely had a huge impact. Are

Casey O'Roarty 25:05
there any other like around personal growth and development, right? Because we both are super personal growth and development junkies, beyond the control piece. Are there other areas that you found have been opportunities for personal growth.

Nathalie Savell 25:21
Yeah. So the other big one that comes to mind is commitment. For a long time, I basically just left any situation that was uncomfortable in my life. So if I wasn't comfortable in a living situation, I think I moved like, six times in one year in my adult life, and I literally just be like, Oh, this isn't working. Okay, I'm gonna find something else that feels better. And then I would go there. And you know, even during my master's degree, I questioned it the entire time. I was like, I mean, I remember the second year, I felt like every month I'd be like, I can't do this. I don't think I should do this. I'd have like, a total meltdown about, like, whether I should keep going or not, right? And so when I had my son, it was a big surprise. And when I got pregnant, and I realized at some point along the way that I had to really commit, like that this wasn't going to be easy, and that I had to either, you know, crap, or get off the pot, so to speak. So I had to either fully commit and say, Okay, I'm going to commit, no matter how hard it gets to this whole situation, to my stepson, to the ex who's involved, to, you know, the relatives that are all involved. And that was a very new experience for me, something that I had not understood or experienced before. That type of commitment. And it actually really helped me in my business, because then once I decided to become a step on coach and my private practice and build my own business. That's a whole nother personal growth opportunity that also brings up your crap, and without that other reference point for what commitment means, I would not be where I am, like, There's no way. So that was a huge personal growth opportunity for me too. Was like, Okay, this is going to be hard. There's going to be moments when I feel like I want to leave, and I'm not going to like, I'm going to stay. And I'm really committed to this being a healthy loving relationship and a healthy loving family, and I'll do whatever it takes to to have that. Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 27:11
well, and I have friends and clients both who are in the stepmom role. And there's the stepchild, stepchildren parent figure, dynamic, but like you've mentioned, all the other adults, including the ex partner, ex spouse. So what have you learned there? Because I, you know, I, you know, I have a couple people right now in my mind that it's a big struggle, and my own experience of being a stepchild and my two biological parents not doing well at the co parenting and living through that experience, I have a really tight relationship with them all. But, you know, as a child, it was brutal, it was ugly. So how do you you know, how do you coach stepmoms? Who are? You know, they're they're wanting to be there for these kids and wanting to have a role, not step on like work all together here, but the ex partner makes it really difficult.

Nathalie Savell 28:12
Yeah, so first and foremost, it's about taking care of yourself, not neglecting your own needs, because there's so much that you can't control in the situation, but one thing that you can control is your well being, I think so really learning how to set boundaries, I make a joke in my stepmom coach community. I'm like, I want to write a book about how to deal with the x, and you open it and says, don't and I know it's not that simple for a lot of people, but sometimes it's simpler than they think, and they get really caught up in the drama, where they get really caught up in trying to, like, help their husbands so much to deal with this ex. And oftentimes there it's a difficult ex situation, and as much as you can barricade yourself from that, like, that's not your responsibility, it's not your problem, it's your husband's problem. If he needs support, like he can go find support with his friends, or he can get a therapist like he is an adult, he can do that. You don't have to be his lean on for that if it's too stressful for you. So really getting clear about like, what is and isn't okay, that the whole boundaries thing and setting limits that you know, I have a lot of STEM moms who who have coached to decide, like, and I've done this myself too, where it's like, I don't want to hear about every single text message she sends you, you know, like, I don't need to know about that. It doesn't affect me if I don't know. I have some moms who stay up all night because the ex is texting the husband. He's like, Oh my God, she's texting me again. And then, you know, and then the set mom's like, oh God, that, you know, that horrible woman. Like, how could she do this or that? Or, like, Why is she so much in our lives? So she can ask the husband, like, please just don't tell me when she's texting. You know, I prefer not to know if there's something important that's going to affect me, then you can let me know. But otherwise, you guys are doing the co parenting together, and that's really their relationship and their stuff. Have to sort out. It's not the stepmoms job or responsibility to sort it out for them, or try to, like, you know, help them, like they have to deal with the consequences of their actions, which were, they got married, they got a divorce, right? Like they have their own relationship stuff to work out, and they have to work it out. It's up to them and and even, like, it's doing a disservice to them if the stepmom is trying to interfere and be super involved in their relationship, because then they don't have to work it out. And they're the ones that are going to have to co parent, you know, forever, so really leaving it to them, like it's their job. That's the mom and dad, and they're the CO parenters together, and the stepmom, yeah, she wants to support her husband to be the best he can be, but she's not the one who's in charge of that relationship. Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 30:44
well, and that just reminds me too well for a couple things, the first thing I'm thinking about this visual that I got from Brene Brown's work of the whole, you know, like, we don't have to get in the in the partner, ex partner, whole with them. We can, we can be loving, be supportive, but also be taking care of ourselves by sitting on the edge, right? You know? And I mean that what you just said, I think is really important, because I heard you just give permission to not be involved. And I think there's probably people listening that are sighing with relief, like, oh, I don't have to know all of this. Like, I don't have to be in the middle of all of this awesome.

Nathalie Savell 31:33
Yeah, awesome, absolutely not. Yeah, totally. And it's often so true that you just give the slightest permission, like, even you don't have to feel loving towards your step kids all the time. And the set moms that I talked to are like, Oh my gosh, thank you so much. I thought I was horrible, such an evil person for not you know, constantly adoring my step kids. And I'm like, not even biological moms constantly adore their own kids totally this expectation that you're going to just like, feel all these hunky dory happy feelings all the time with your step kids. Yeah, yeah. So permission is huge.

Casey O'Roarty 32:11
Hey everybody, oh my gosh. I am so excited that I get to serve you each week in all the ways that I do. I know that joyful courage is meant to make an impact on the world. I know this 100% without a doubt. I also know that the show does that I get emails and messages and cards in the mail, even from parents all over the world that have found that what is shared on the show is changing the way they parent their kids. It's changing the way they are experiencing the parenting journey, and I am super honored to be stepping into the bigger call to do this. You know that I'm a positive discipline trainer, I'm a personal growth development coach and facilitator, I'm a speaker, a mover and a shaker, but what I have always been is a connector. I connect with people. I support people with connecting to themselves and their families. I have a gift for allowing others to feel seen and heard and understood. And I am a relationship builder on fire. I hold space for communities of moms and dads to come together and vulnerably share. I do my own vulnerable sharing. Here. I hold space for them to support and celebrate each other and the collective journey of parenting. I am super honored to do this work. I'm honored to be in contribution. I'm honored to have a voice and a platform that move moves others, to do the deep work of moving past the bullshit and into their deepest authenticity. So that being said, I want you to know that I have a new way for you to be in contribution to the work of joyful courage.

I have e courses and coaching, and there's different ways and offers like that that you can invest in this work. But I also have a Patreon page, and Patreon is a service that allows people to be in contribution towards the resources that they love, you can become a patron of joyful courage. And the really neat thing is it's pretty small increments. It's a monthly subscription. So for $1 a month, or $5 a month or $10 a month, you can be giving back to this program. You can be giving back to joyful courage. So I want you to head over to www dot Patreon, P, a t r e o n.com/joyful, courage, w, w, w, dot P, a t r e o n.com/joyful, courage. And when you get there, you can see a. The different ways that you can be in contribution to the work of joyful courage. For as little as the cost of one latte a month, you can be helping with the sustainability of this business, of this podcast, and of the work of bringing more love and more connection to the children and the families of the world, so go check it out. Do you have any questions? Let me know. I'm so so so excited. Well, and you mentioned to me that learning positive parenting helped when you were feeling really lost and confused and like your partner was doing everything wrong. This is totally something that comes up often in my community. Is just that misalignment around philosophy, around parenting, can you and so, yeah, talk about this. What did you find? You know, positive parenting is such a broad phrase. So what did you land on, and how did it support you with your relationship with your partner, and the way that you were showing up for your boys?

Nathalie Savell 36:08
Yeah, it's funny. I was just actually writing about this, so I did a lot of research, because that's kind of what I do. You know, when I'm my stepson is a very sensitive personality, so I think the divorce is really hard on him. I think he still has some challenges with that. He He's very emotional, he's very charged, he's very strong willed. He, you know, he's a leader, and he's very creative. And he also displayed behavior that I was not accustomed to seeing, and the kids that I babysat, and I was like, What the heck is this? This is, how do you deal with this? This is something completely new. All the things that you know, counting to three didn't work. And you know, threats, 123,

Casey O'Roarty 36:47
magic didn't work. It didn't work.

Nathalie Savell 36:50
So and then the threats didn't work. And, like, all this stuff that I thought was like, normal parenting was not working with him because he was super strong willed, and he would just, like, throw it back in your face or just get even more rebellious. And I was like, What is going on? I don't understand this. So I did. I started doing research, and what I came to that actually really changed everything, and that's what I was writing about today. Is Dr Laura Markham, are you familiar with

Casey O'Roarty 37:15
her? Yep, she's been on the podcast, actually. Oh, cool.

Nathalie Savell 37:18
She's in my series too. And so I was just writing the introduction, because she's her releases in a couple days from this, from when we're talking right now. And so I was writing about how she, yeah, just taking I took her course, and I read her books. She's very attachment based. And it really spoke to me as a mental health therapist, because I saw how so many behaviors are rooted in needs fundamentally and are rooted in, like little T trauma. We call it in mental health therapy, so, like, emotional ways that our needs didn't quite get met as we were in our formative developmental years as children. So so it reoriented my perspective on my stepson to like his behavior isn't bad or mean or vindictive or, you know, out to get me, it's because he has had challenges and he's acting out these emotions that he's dealing with that he doesn't know what to do with. And she really, really taught me that, and it also helped me with my partner, because I saw that he actually had that orientation much more naturally than I did, like he really was looking for, like the underlying reason for his son's behavior. And so I was like, wow, he's actually doing a lot more right than I thought.

Casey O'Roarty 38:38
Oh my gosh, that's such a crazy realization, then we get to kind of come back with our tail between our legs. Sorry,

Nathalie Savell 38:44
right? You're actually really right about this, yeah, wow, that's really cool. How do you know that? And my friend, he's like, much more. He's like, you know, in the relationship work we've done, he's like the caveman. So he's very like, instinct based, and he's very like, you know, he doesn't just see things on this like, I don't, I don't know how else to describe it, besides, like, instinctual. So instinctually, he had seen the trauma that his son had been through, through the divorce, and he's seen how his son was before and how he was after. And I hadn't seen any of that. I didn't know what his mom was like, you know, on the on the before end. Um, so I just got so much more openness and compassion for his parenting style, and to know too that, like, you know, I mean, and also, once I had my son, I realized, like, we all mess up all the time, and like, my partner was gonna mess up all the time. Like, wow, that's such a revelation. But it does. It seems so obvious, but it's, it's stuff you just don't know. If you haven't lived it, just don't know. How would you know, unless you've lived it, you don't like there's no way to really know what that's like. So, so yeah, all of those are really revelations. Me and then, well, we also did a lot of couples work that helped us to get on the same page. That's so important. Something I teach my step moms is that as a step couple, I mean, as a biological in a nuclear family, it's the same way the couple has to be strong for the rest of the family, like you have to show up as a united front in your parenting. Otherwise the whole everything else is harder, like the kids behavior is harder, because if your kid's acting up and your partner's acting in a way that you don't like, and you judge your partner for that, and then the kids also acting up, it's just creating more of, like, a shitstorm, you know, so, but if you're like, Oh, my partner is not reacting well, he's messing up, you know, let me see how I can be supportive in this situation. And we all mess up sometimes, you know, it's like, I tell my son moms, it's like, if you were on a soccer team and another player missed the ball, you wouldn't be like, what's wrong with you? Like, why didn't you get that ball? You're supposed to be, you know, playing on the team here, you'd be like, Oh, good job. Good try. Like, let's try again next time. Like, come back. And you would encourage them, and you'd be super supportive, because you're on the same team, and you want everyone to succeed, and you want everyone to do well. So I like to bring that into our relationships too. Like, you want your partner to do well. You want him to do better if he's not doing well, right? Like, so you don't want to kick him down if he's messing up. You want to be supportive and encouraging the way that you would a teammate. So yeah, I think that all a lot of that started with with Dr Laura Markham. She's been such a huge influence on me, and then just kind of spread from there. And I think too, with the differing parenting styles, I think you just have to get down to basics when it comes to your step kids, especially like, what are the bottom lines in our house that we are going to follow? And this might be the same with nuclear families, I don't know, because I'm not in a nuclear family, but you tell me that there's just some bottom lines that, yeah, we might have some different things that we disagree on, like, what movies he can watch, for example, I'm not going to like, go crazy over what my partner is letting his son watch, but I'm not going to let my son watch that stuff. You know what I mean? Like, I can dictate that, but you know, we are gonna, like, what's something that we absolutely there? I mean, there's no hitting, there's no spitting, you know, like, there's some very bottom line things that we definitely agree on that are not acceptable, and that's what we you know, we you have to really decide as a stepmom, like, what is your bottom line, you know? Like, what are the things that are absolutely not acceptable? And I think in parenting, and tell me, Casey, if you think this is true, like, it's kind of the same, like, you kind of really be flexible with most things. But then there's some fundamental things that, like, you don't allow, yeah, would you say that's true?

Casey O'Roarty 42:33
Oh, I would definitely say that's true. And, you know, it's interesting also. Well, first I have a couple things. One is how lucky for you that as you learned positive parenting, you realized that your partner actually was instinctively that kind of parent. What I hear a lot from moms is they're learning this new way of being with their kids, and instead, it's like, oh my gosh, my husband is so not on board, my partner is so not on board, and they're actually extreme opposite. And I love what you're talking about as far as the couple's work goes. I mean, yes, yes, yes, everybody go to couples therapy, not because there's a crisis, but because it's such a powerful way to be supported in your communication and to get on the same page, like I'm hearing you talk about because, and it's not because. You'll go there and the counselor will be like, see your wife's right and you're wrong, right? We all have shit to own. Yep, right. We all are part of influencing the dynamic that we're in. And

Nathalie Savell 43:37
you know, if you shift the way you're acting, as a mom, your partner, is also going to see that. He's going to see what works. And that often can also have a major, like, that's had a major impact on us too. Like, there's things that I do that now he does because he sees me doing and it works, you know. So there is that, but yeah, keep going yeah. And

Casey O'Roarty 43:54
then as far as, like, the bottom lines, you know, absolutely, I mean, we yes and right? It's always a yes and yes. There is no hitting in our house, and our kids have only so much tolerance and life skills, and at times, get emotional and somebody gets whacked, right? And so there is an opportunity there to either, you know, really focus in on there's no hitting and you hit. And now what? There's something that's gonna happen to you, you know, versus like, hey, let's talk about what happened. Because we know that we have this boundary in our house. We know that we have this lion that's not to be crossed, and you crossed it. So I'm guessing there's some pretty big stuff going on here. So let's, let's figure that out, and then you get to make it right with your sibling, right? Because so I think it's really easy to talk about what we quote, don't allow what isn't allowed, but I also think it's short sighted to Yes and it's a yes and right. Yes, create those expectations. Yes, create those boundaries. And when they get pushed up against because they will be really curious around what it is that has shown up that's led your child to bump up against it, because that's where long term parenting lives. It doesn't live in, how can I nip this behavior in the butt? It doesn't live in the 123, magic. It doesn't live in grounding, timeouts. It lives in, let's figure out what's happening under the surface,

Nathalie Savell 45:29
right? And they grow, right? Yeah, you can't just tell them not to do it. You have to teach them, like, how to do it differently, right? Yeah, I

Casey O'Roarty 45:39
was thinking especially like a two or a three or a four year old, like, no hitting, no hitting. We say it all day long, no hitting, right? We do not hit. In our house, well, what are they supposed to do? Then, when they're emotionally dysregulated, and somebody just took their stuff, like, give them something else to do, and then practice, practice, practice, practice, right? Exactly.

Nathalie Savell 45:57
Grabbing is another really big one in our house too. Like you're not allowed to grab. So, yeah, when grabbing happens, it's not just like, you can't. Well, sometimes it is, but hopefully it's not as more often than not, let's try that again. Let's do it, yeah. How can you do that differently? Like, how can you know what I mean? Like, let's ask and use your words. And you know, how does it feel when? Yeah, so that's why I'm not a parenting coach. Yet, I don't feel, you know, and I do feel when I teach my stepmoms, it's not so much about the parenting stuff. It's more about how to take care of themselves and how to set the boundaries that they need and get clear in their role and do the best that they can and their part in their relationship, and then do their best to connect with the kids in a healthy, positive way. You know, so

Casey O'Roarty 46:41
great, so important. And you know, I mean, that's, that's it really, I mean, people come, I do call myself a parenting coach, and when the clients show up, it's like, oh, this is not about fixing your kids.

Nathalie Savell 46:55
I know. I know. Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 46:57
so I the work that you do is so important, and I'm so excited to be talking to you about it. I I'm and I'm looking at the time, oh my gosh, I could talk to you for another two hours. Do you have any final thoughts for the listeners around your work, the work of step parenting in general? Any little nuggets that you want to leave the listeners with before I ask you my last question,

Nathalie Savell 47:21
I just want to say that people have more power than they think. I hear a lot of some moms feel so out of control and so disempowered by the ex the kids whatever their partner's doing. And there is support out there, like there's people like me and Casey who are obsessed with figuring out, like, how to resolve the challenges that you're dealing with. And it doesn't take as much as you think, to get on a path that's a lot more helpful, that makes you feel like a lot more empowered. So, yeah, I just think that get the support that you you need and deserve. You know, just just reach out and get it. That's what we're here for. Use

Casey O'Roarty 47:58
us in the context of step parenting. Natalie, what does joyful courage mean to you?

Nathalie Savell 48:05
Oh, my gosh. I love the term joyful courage so much. Yeah, it's like the courage to keep doing the work, like the courage to keep going and to, you know, I call my stepmoms in my group, like stepmom warriors sometimes, because I'm like, You're a warrior, you know, like, keep fighting, keep going. For, you know, fighting the good fight, to be like a loving person. For me, it's, it's like, it's like a spiritual warrior, of like, being on a path of love, it takes a lot of courage, because it's not easy, and a lot of people are going to judge you, and a lot of people are going to naysay you. And to add in that joy in there, it's like, so not only are you being brave and courageous and like, keep putting one foot in front of the other, but how can you have fun while doing it? And why not, right? And so why not peel back the layers and see how, like, you can be childlike in your in your battles you know, in your love battles? Yes, love it, yeah, because I think we're all meant to be that way. I don't know to have fun. So, so yeah, it's important to take things lightly at the same time that you work hard at them.

Casey O'Roarty 49:16
I can align with that for sure. Let the listeners know where they can find you and follow your work. Sure.

Nathalie Savell 49:21
So it's nataliesavelle.com it's kind of a weird spelling. There's an H in Natalie, so it's N, A, T, H, A, l, I, E, savell, S, A, V, as in Victor, E, L, l.com, and my coaching practice is called stepmom strong coaching. So search for that on Facebook. You can join my free group there. I'm on Instagram, a stepmom, strong coaching as well. So yeah, find me and follow me and join, join the fun, beautiful.

Casey O'Roarty 49:49
Thank you so much for taking the time to come on today. Natalie, you're so

Nathalie Savell 49:54
welcome. Thanks for having me. It was so fun.

Casey O'Roarty 49:59
You. Joy joyful courage community, you're amazing. Big. Thanks and love to my team, including my producer, Chris Mann at pod shaper. Be sure to join in the discussion over at the live in love with joyful courage group page, as well as the joyful courage business page on Facebook and Instagram. Subscribe to the show through Apple podcasts, or really, anywhere you find your favorite podcast, you can view the current joyful courage swag over at the web page. Intention, cards, bracelets. E course offers the membership program, one on one, coaching. It's all waiting for you to take a look. Simply head to www dot joyful courage.com/yes. That's joyful courage.com/y. E, S to find more support for your conscious parenting journey. Any comments or feedback about this show or any others can be sent to [email protected] I personally read and respond to all the emails that come my way. Reach out, take a breath, drop into your body, find the balcony seat and trust that everyone is going to be okay.

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