Eps 158: Kimberly Muench talks about the tight rope walk of raising teens

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Casey O'Roarty 0:00
Music. Hey everybody. Welcome to the joyful courage podcast, a place for information and inspiration on the conscious parenting journey. I am Casey o'rourdy, positive discipline trainer, parent coach, and honored to be your guide in the work of showing up as your best for yourself and your family. If you feel as though parenting is one long personal growth and development workshop, you have come to the right place. The conversations you will hear on this podcast are all intended to offer you tools for moving forward, for expanding your lens, for shifting your narrative to one of possibility, connection and empowerment. You can be the parent you want to be. We are influencing the world with how we raise our children. When we bring deep, listening, acceptance and courage to our relationships, we are doing our part to evoke it in the world. I am thrilled to partner with you on this path. I hope you enjoy the show. Welcome back, listeners. My guest today is Kim Minch. Kim is a Jai Institute for parenting, certified parenting coach whose favorite population are moms of preteens and teenagers. She is also the mother of five kids, ages 13 to 31 four boys, and her youngest is her only daughter with three decades of personal experience, Kim is passionate about educating, supporting and encouraging moms to raise their adolescents through intentional parenting practices by facilitating one on One coaching as well as local support groups and workshops just for moms, Kim guides with compassion and without judgment to help moms create happier, healthier relationships at home. In addition, Kim writes locally and nationally about conscious parenting practices, and her blog can be found at WWW dot reallife parentguide.com, you if you are a hardcore, joyful courage listener, you will remember Kim from Episode 82 when we talked about tweens and smartphones. Oh my gosh, that conversation was well over a year ago, and I feel like so much has shown up on the journey since then, including deep diving into the teen years. I'm so happy to have you back on Welcome back to the podcast. Kim,

Kim Muench 2:24
thank you, Casey. I'm so happy to be here again and to have the opportunity to chat with you and your listeners,

Casey O'Roarty 2:31
yay. Well, please remind us all about how you found yourself doing what you do. Well,

Kim Muench 2:35
I found myself in my greatest parenting challenge and slash nightmare in May of 2008 when, as you mentioned, I have five children. My oldest son at the time, was 20, and I received a phone call from him. He was living out of state, 1500 miles away, and he called and he said, Mom, I need help. I've been in a blackout the last three days, and I've been recovering all day today, and I this isn't the first time, though. It was the first time for me to understand that he had a very serious problem with alcohol. It was the wake up call of that phone call that really sent me on a journey to look at not only the way I was parenting, but the way I had been parented, and what I was bringing from my own my own childhood, into the way that I was raising my kids. So he, we had very tumultuous couple of years, and he is at this point more than eight years sober, much in credit to the fact that, of course, you know, as with addiction, it's it, it really had to come from him. However, I think it was supporting and encouraging him without doing too much for him during those times that really elicited his long term sobriety. So that prompted me to really, like I said, investigate parenting on so many levels. I went back to school for a degree in psychology, and I was determined to become a licensed Chemical Dependency Counselor, and along that road, I decided what I really want to focus on is proactively helping parents, specifically parents of teenagers, just because of where I was at in the game with my own children. So at this point, I, as you mentioned, I write about conscious parenting. I lead local workshops and support groups for parents of moms, specifically of preteens and teens, and Coach women one on one through a course that I developed because I want to help shift the consciousness of the way that we're parenting, especially our teenagers. Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 4:49
well, and I want to say too I, I just want to say, call out to all the dads that are listening. Don't worry. This show is for you, too. Yeah. Yeah,

Kim Muench 5:01
I love dads. I have one. My kids have one. I love dads too. I just Yes, absolutely, this will apply to either one, yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 5:09
well, and I really appreciate that. So as everyone knows, I have my own teenager, and one that's coming up in November, October will be a teenager, a baby teenager, he Well, both of them are teaching me so much and really sending me back to my parenting books, specifically positive discipline for teenagers, as you know, and my listeners know, that's the philosophy that I facilitate and kind of have my foundation in, and it's interesting because and we were talking before I hit record, it feels like there's this gap of information. There's so much written and offered for parents with kids under five and for school aged kids, and then it comes to adolescents and teenagers, and it just feels like there's not much there. And so I'm so grateful to have you come on and have this conversation with me, because for one you are, you know your your youngest is your daughter, so she is, she 13? Yes, she

Kim Muench 6:15
is. She's heading into eighth grade.

Casey O'Roarty 6:16
So she's heading into eighth grade. But you've, you've made, you have people that made it to the other side, I

Kim Muench 6:22
do, and have been through some challenges on the way to the other side. So yes, I have a son that is going to be a sophomore, so I believe you have a daughter the same age I do. I do, okay, yes, okay. And then I have one in college, and I have one that is in his mid 20s, and he is returning to from a European a year in Europe, and going to be going into the seminary. So I have bear a wide variety of kids and experiences, and they're all, you know, I don't know why I thought they would be kind of the same, but they couldn't be more different. And the and the beautiful thing about it is when we're all together, they appreciate each other and their uniqueness, and that is fantastic as a parent to see, yeah, well,

Casey O'Roarty 7:07
and I'm guessing, too, none of them have walked a path that you assumed that they would be walking.

Kim Muench 7:15
No, and that's and that's why we're talking about detaching from the outcome today. Yes, that is, they had they haven't, and it's been, you know, it's a practice for me and to Yeah, just realize sometimes you don't even know that you have expectations. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, you think you've had no expectations,

Casey O'Roarty 7:35
but you think you're so easygoing, that's what I think. I'm so laid back and, you know, free spirited, and I just want my children to walk their own creative path. And then I'm like, why are you on that path that's not the right path? Oh, my gosh, it's Oh, mind melting, yes. Well, when I re listened to the show that we did in March of 2017 all I could think of as I listened to myself was, oh, you sweet, mom. You had no idea what was coming. It was actually right at the cusp, right before some really big shifts with my daughter. And I thought that I had a teenager. She was 14, and I thought we had arrived, but she was really, and I just said this about Ian, she was really just like a baby teenager, right? So tell me about what you think of when, like, when do we know because they turned 13, but then there's that period where you're like, Oh, now they're, they're, they've arrived. What when do you when do you think that time is? What is it? What is the distinctions that show up when our children have arrived? If you know what I

Kim Muench 8:47
mean, yeah, yeah. And there's no magic. It's like 18 is not some magical number that all of a sudden after kids and adult. I mean, they're recognized and adult, but that's not a magic number that just all of a sudden, hey, they're mature and they can make all the decisions on their own. I will say this. I'm going to tell you two answers, one of which is what I think parents would say. My in my experience in working with parents, is when I see the eye rolls, when all of a sudden I'm getting the attitude. This is what I know that I'm a parent of a teenager. And what I will tell you from my own personal parenting experience, is this, when my kids start to come to me and tell me things about their friends and then the things their friends are experiencing and doing and experimenting with, that's that's what I know. And for my daughter at 13, I mean, it's very realistic in terms of friends and boys and dating and things that are going on. But yeah, for me, it's when my kids start talking to me about things that I might wish that they weren't yet experiencing through their friends, but they are, and they're coming and talking to me about it. Yeah. So there's the plus, right? You said the same thing, right? Yeah, that is a

Casey O'Roarty 10:04
plus. And it's also like, oh my gosh, where's the sand? I would like to stick my head in it right? Now, not really, but that is, it's, it's challenge. It's, you know, I think that. Well, okay, so there's this, there's this continuum, right of that extreme authoritarian, lots of control on the parents part, or perceived control through punishment and rewards. And then on the other end of the spectrum is this, like, hands off. They're going to do what they want anyway. I have no control. Kids are in control continuum, and so and I was raised, or I've raised my kids with positive discipline, which is this kind and firm, both and style, and it's all well and good until things got super real, and my child is coming to me saying, hey, guess what? I need to tell you something that I did. And I'm like, Oh, tell all I have to respond is tell me more about that, because I don't know what else to say. And so it feels really challenging to stand in the middle between this like, you know, super control of the parent versus super control of the child. To be inside of this authoritative style. It's I'm noticing, and not all the time, but and it's typically when fear is creeping in and the Oh my gosh. What if future tripping to find my feet in that kind and firm you know, in my opinion, relationship trumps everything. So I want to whatever I do or say, I want it to strengthen relationship while also holding boundaries. I mean, it's like, yeah,

Kim Muench 11:50
it's a tightrope walk. I mean, that's what I call it. But, and here's, here's how I work with moms, in terms of as our kids are progressing through their middle school and certainly, certainly through their high school years. We want to give them opportunities and choices as much as possible, but you absolutely have to have some boundaries and structure in place. So just like when there are two two things apply, choosing your battles, choosing what is most important to you. And I think one of the things that we do is we get so busy as parents in our day to day life, we've never really defined what our values are and what we want to what our family stands for, and what we want to instill in our children. We might say things, but really, I think it's, it's beneficial to parents to really think through, write down and have a conversation if they're, you know, in a co partnership parenting, as to, you know, what did it what do we stand for? What do we value, and what are we trying to instill in our kids and work towards that end in every decision that's made? And are you an example of this for your kids? And I think that clearly helps to define what the non negotiables are going to be in your house, and then whenever possible, to give choices. I would you like some examples of what I mean? Yeah, I would love that. That would be okay. Okay, so my young I'm going to focus on my youngest two that are 13 and 15, girl and boy, because that just makes the most sense, and that's kind of where you're at as well. So in terms of their academics, they're choosing their schooling and whatnot. Of course, there's all these outside messages parents are getting about what their kids should take and how they need to, you know, check this box and, you know, blah, blah, blah. I very much give my kids the opportunity to choose whatever level course they want to take. I figure they know. I really just trust that they know better than me what what their ability is. And okay, so that's one area where they always have choice. Second area is what, for example, this is a little thing, but when they're going to do their homework, they know what they have to get done. They know if they want to come home and have a snack and get to it, or if they want to do it after dinner, if they want to do it, if they want to get up early the next morning and do it. I mean, they're the ones that are going to have the ramifications in terms of their grades or not being prepared. So that to me, like I've released that. Okay, can you talk about that for

Casey O'Roarty 14:22
a second? Sure? Sure. Because I think it's valuable to be transparent, and I am being transparent right now. So this is one of those places where I thought I was so hands off, and it was easy to be hands off, because I had a child who was highly motivated around school and grades, and that has left the building, and it's become, like, passing, still probably getting better grades than the majority of the kids, pulling off, actually pretty decent grades, considering the amount of effort that's being put into. And this is where I'm like, Oh my gosh, I am not hands off. Off like I am. I want to. And I was raised in a family where, like, values education, not only education, but high GPA, you know? Yeah, I mean grades. I was paid for grades, whether or not I could drive my car dependent on my grades, and I did exactly the bare minimum of whatever was, you know, I had to have a 3.0 to drive my car. So guess what? I got a 3.0 and, and now I'm and so coming out of that, thinking I am going to be totally hands off, you know? And I thought that I was so mean. Listeners, don't you love it when you're like, oh my gosh, I am so good at being hands off. I am so good, yeah, patting myself on the back. And, lo and behold, here we are in high school, and she's like, You know what? I don't really care, and I'm probably not going to go to college. And and I'm like, inside my body, like, What are you talking about? So, yes, and I'm the same way with homework, although the inside of me is slowly dying again. I think being the Pioneer versus, you know, on child four and five is probably what's showing up here as well, because I could be all over her case, and it that could be the theme of our time together is me letting her know that she's not doing enough, translated to not good enough, translated to whatever meaning she makes, which is not what I want either. So

Kim Muench 16:32
okay, and I think a second part to this, I just have to jump in and say this is attaching to the outcome thing, right? Why? Talking about? Why, why? I mean, we could talk about a whole range of things, but why I've become, why I've gotten to a place where I'm able to do this is because I have done a lot of personal work and and by that, I don't mean like, Oh, my God, years of study. And you know that. You know that okay, but what I'm saying is I regularly work on myself and take good care of myself so that I am present when I'm with them and I don't, I spend a lot less time worrying about what the future is going to bring for them. I know that's easier said than done, but I don't know if you meditate. I mean, I've meditated for years. That is incredibly helpful to me, taking the time every morning I run. So I taking the time every morning to do that. And quite frankly,

one thing that helps my mental health at the end of the day is to have a glass of wine. And that's just me. I mean, every woman will, you know, every parent will have a personal care routine, but making that a priority, we it's so hard. Like as moms, we have this nature to give, give, give, give, give, give, and you cannot give what you do not have, right? Yeah, you cannot give. You cannot be patient. If you aren't. You know you cannot give your patience to your children if you don't have patience to give. But I think that one of the contributing factors is that I, and I have watched my kids go through through some very challenging things, and I can't say I've never been anxious about the outcome, but I am able to realize that these bumps is where we grow character. I was a teen mom, and, of course, I worry about that, you know, with my kids and their girlfriends, or my daughter, you know, now that shed the teen years, but the reality is that she's not me. My kids aren't me, and being super anxious about a particular outcome can sometimes bring that about. I've seen it over and over, you know, yeah, there's good reason to be anxious as parents of teens, especially when there's so many different things available to them and new experiences and whatnot. But if you can build a relationship with your child that they understand that you are not going to judge them and that you love them for just who they are in that moment, I think that that is a key player. You're not easy,

Casey O'Roarty 19:18
no, well, and I think, like you said, give, give, give. For me, it's control, control, control. And that's been my parenting lesson from childbirth with my daughter. And I thought, you know, you think, Oh, I've, I've gotten over that, or I've I've done, and I too have done a lot of personal work and and giving myself credit to have have evolved quite a bit as a human and I know that my daughter is my teacher. I know that we came together as soul beings prior to. The physical body, and said, Okay, this is it. This is where we break some cycles. And the line of women, this is where, you know, I'm gonna teach you about letting go of fear and control. And she's doing it. She's teaching me. And I really appreciate talking to people who's, you know, like, like, with the experience of having gone through the teen years, because it is so easy to forget, or to trust, really, that everybody's going to be okay and that. And I mean, ask anyone close to me, even my brother and sister, when, when we were before any of us had kids. My brother said to my younger sister, you know, Casey's pretty bossy, but if you just do what she says, you end up having a really good time. Unfortunately, my children did not get that memo. But you know, it's not like, it's something that's new, right? And I know that, I think that there's this illusion When we have control, that somehow we can keep people safe, right? And I think ultimately comes from this place of love and wanting our kids to be safe and forgetting, like you said, that every bump in the road, every experience, offers them an opportunity to build resiliency and character and accountability. And I was just saying to a group that I lead this morning, you know, we can model, we can teach, we can coach them, but it's the experiences that they have in life that are ultimately going to teach them right and grow them into the people that that they are meant to be. And you know, right now individuation is so is like we are hardcore in individuation right now in our house. And when I think back to my own experience of being in a pretty controlled environment, I didn't do my individuation until college. And you know, that's when I realized, like, Oh, nothing actually happens to you when you get a D, oh, yes, nobody's, nobody's paying attention to whether or not I go to class, or what time I come home, or who I'm spending the night with, or, you know, fill in the pretty much, fill in the blank with anything you can think of, and you know, so I was individuating Two states away versus and this helps me, and that's why I'm sharing it with everybody, is it helps me to remember like our individuation process right now is happening under our roof, and how great, because we're All there, loving each other and guiding and trusting that everybody's going to be okay

Kim Muench 22:45
at the end of the day, yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 22:52
hey, who is in Kansas City, who's near Kansas City, who has people, mothers that they Know that live in or near Kansas City? I'm asking because I want to draw you in. I want you to come play october 26 through the 28th is a three day workshop called mother's journey home to herself. Motherhood is one surprising moment after another, starting from those very first minutes of holding that fragile little being in your arms right knowing their future is up to you. And of course, at the surface are the basic needs, food, clothing, shelter. But deeper than that is that connection that we nurture, being attuned to their experience, trusting in ourselves so that they can trust themselves and the world around them. What's often an unexpected experience for mothers is our own evolution. The beliefs and the ideas that we've held as truth no longer serve us. Some of us are clear about these beliefs, while others simply are experiencing an unsettling discomfort and knowing that something is off. So you know, many of us become mothers, and we get caught tending the needs of our family, our homes and our community, and we struggle to find ways to move our personal growth and well, being up that priority list this weekend retreat will allow you the opportunity to explore self care rituals that will help you reset and feel renewed, and give you nurturing tools that you can incorporate into your daily life far beyond the weekend, so that you can feel more ease, peace, connection and joy in the Every day. A mother's journey home to herself is an invitation my friends an invitation for deep personal inquiry while practicing tools for deepening relationship with ourselves and our family, resulting in more cooperation and ease and joy during this exceptional time in our lives, our. You being called to the journey. Registration is open now and will only be open through October 1. You can sign up or get more information about Mother's journey by going to www dot joyful courage.com/mj, weekend, all one word that's www, dot joyful courage.com/m. J weekend, all one word. There, you'll get a little bit of information about each of the facilitators and what you can expect and the cost and all the things. Again, we're going to be in Kansas City, Friday, October 26 through Sunday, October 28 I so hope that you join us,

Kim Muench 25:49
and you can see, in looking back at your own upbringing, that those that individuation, those moments you know, those are the times that you learned and built character, and the fact that your children are showing these things to you earlier is, I think, fantastic, because it means you're allowing them, yeah, you're allowing them to do that, to be who they are, you know, within the realm, again, I really think that this age group and parenting kids tend to 25 you know, is really a tight rope walk, and it's a learning experience, and it's a practice. It is a practice in the more you can get past all of those messages and expectations that our culture tells us all the time are important, and just tune in to who your child is. To me, that's that's the key, because it's all of these messages that we need to be aware of. I'm not saying live in a world where you don't know what's going on. I'm saying keep it in perspective and continue to work on the connection with your with your child and and to do that, they have to have some buy in. They have to understand that. They have to feel like you're not going to judge, criticize and hold them to a level that they're not comfortable with or that they don't want,

Casey O'Roarty 27:12
right? You know, when I think about how many of us you know are working through our own stuff because of the messages that we received growing up. And I think that part of my college individuation, we'll just call it that okay, had to do with I couldn't I didn't have space to try things on, because the space was really judgmental and what was acceptable was very narrow, and so that when I remember that I get to celebrate that that's while my daughter is very quick to let me know how judgmental I am, I know that at some level, I'm doing okay, because she's one able to tell me you are really judgmental and you always have to be right, which I mentioned, and again, talk to the people that are close to me. Yeah, this was not just her, you know, lashing out. It's pretty accurate. And you know that she has the ability to say that to me, and, you know, and to be trying things on, and to be really, I mean, there's plenty she doesn't tell me. I know that which is appropriate, I think, and the what she does tell me, I think, is such a gift. Because I didn't, I didn't talk to my parents with the candor that my kids talk to me. So yeah, that, and I'm sharing that again listeners, because it's so easy for us. I think no matter what age our kids are to judge ourselves and and we forget to look for all of these, all of these signposts that say, Hey, you're doing okay. Actually, everything is okay,

Kim Minch 29:04
and there is value. I love the fact that you kind of thought about and worked through your own parent, your own childhood and understanding what didn't work. That's one of the things that I was grounded, literally, from junior high through high school, right? I mean, from one report card to the next. I mean, it was just and all that did was, especially as I got older and started dating and things, I just got sneakier. I just got, I just got, you know, and I, and I work with parents who are in the middle of this cat and mouse game where it's like, they do this. I'm going to read their texts. They do this. I'm going to take their phone, they do this, and it's back and forth that gets nobody anywhere. And then then what you want me to ask yourself is, what kind of relationship do I want to have with this child when they're grown up? Because I have a fantastic relationship with my oldest kids because they were. Able, I truly believe that they felt able to come to me and talk with me and get support without my doing too much for them and also encouraging them right where they were at and that judging them, you know. And I really, I think it's because there were so many times in my own growing up that I felt judged by either parents or other adults in my life, that I just didn't want that for my kids. Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 30:31
attachment to outcome. So not helpful, right? And then, but so uncomfortable to try and let things go. I mean, for some of us

Kim Muench 30:43
well, and you know, I think that one of the things that parents can do again is to really think about what are my own values that I want to instill, and am I living those out, or am I just preaching them? Am I walking the walk? Am I because our kids will, through their behavior and their words totally throw the BS flag in our face. Mean they just will do that. So you have to, you know, be an example of what you're and that doesn't mean, hey, let's hold ourselves to a perfect level. And I've got to, you know, have all everything together and whatever it's about being human and vulnerable with our kids as well. I think there's real value in just saying, You know what, thank you for coming and telling me this, like, horrific story or something. You know, I'm not really sure how to respond at the moment, but, man, I really appreciate that you told me, you know, I need time to think this through, or, you know, whatever it is, but apologizing when necessary. Being vulnerable at times is really humanizing. And our kids, they know we make mistakes. You know they know that. And when you can be relatable to them, and they see that you're willing to share some hard stuff at times, that's, you know, that's, that's where connections are made as well. You're not coming from this, like, I know it all, and, you know, you need to do this, this and this and kind of thing.

Casey O'Roarty 32:09
So I interrupted you when you were talking about the choices, you were talking about homework kind of and but I where you didn't go what I would have loved to talk about, like, are those non negotiables, and how I'm guessing those are kind of where the boundaries lie, and what does that look like in your home? Okay,

Kim Muench 32:29
so the choices come in when homework and that you know that their grades, their academics, are completely on them. They know that I am available to take them for tutoring if they want to go. That you know, I am not the person to come to for math help, because I am not strong in math. But bottom line, I will help facilitate whatever they need when they need it. But their choices. You know, they have a lot of choice in their academics. They have a lot of choice in their extracurriculars. They can shoot, they they need to be involved in something. But I don't care what that looks like, whatever, you know, whatever that looks like. I have a son in band, and we live in Texas, and band is incredibly I don't know, it probably the country, but, oh my god. Okay, so our you

Casey O'Roarty 33:13
always have to just do things a little bit bigger, don't you? Well,

Kim Muench 33:17
no, and I'm not native Texan. Been here for 10 years. I call it home, but it is really intense, really intense in terms of working and whatnot. And that is a choice for him. I would never I will support him during the season, which is just real intense in terms of two and three a day kind of practices in the heat, which is insane. I will support him in terms of making sure he's got food and making sure he gets good, you know, rest when he can, and whatnot. But his being in it is completely up to him because, and there's a lot of parents who don't give that latitude.

It looks really important for their kid to be in football or band or, you know, play this particular instrument, or be in theater or whatever. My kids need to be in something, because I think that they should do something more than just their academics, but what that looks like, I don't, you know that's completely up to them. Non negotiable is alcohol and drugs, of course, with the experience I had with my oldest son and I don't, I don't come from a place of fear. I come from a place of wanting to discuss it with them, educate them. They my youngest two never really saw they were two and four in the in the worst part of what was going on with my oldest. So they really don't have that experience like to but they know that it's been in my heart, and it's been very clear to me, because my. Feeling is this, once we once our kids have that knowledge of what alcohol or marijuana, or, you know, whatever it feels like, the longer we can hold the longer we can keep them away from that, especially, especially like, I know we're both fans of Dan Siegel and in terms of, you know, what's going on in this, in this time period in their lives, the longer that we can have them, hold them from that, the better off they're going to be. And I do have my one son is going to be 21 in January, and went to study abroad, where it was legal to drink alcohol. And drank a little bit while he was there and came back and just chooses that's just not who he is. And I think that, I think that when kids feel comfortable and heard and acknowledged at home, they're a little especially in terms of what their how their parents feel about drug and alcohol use, I think they have an easier time going out into the world with their peers and choosing not to do that.

Casey O'Roarty 36:10
I hear you, Kim, I hear you, and I know that there. I know that there's a lot of us that are navigating this right now. I live in Washington state where, you know, pot is now legal for adults, but it's definitely kicked it up a notch with the younger crowd. And you know, I like you, I was grounded a lot. Mostly, I was grounded for sneaking out, which only like the meaning that I got was I got to get better at sneaking out, yeah, and so that being said, navigating when we do have a teen that might be experimenting or checking some stuff out. So this is, this is one of those interesting places where I feel like in parent education, it's this, we don't really myself included. It's hard to articulate or commit to messaging around this because it feels messy and risky. And, you know, I don't think that all kids that, I mean, there's definitely kids that are using drugs and alcohol and need to go to rehab, like just, it's a problem. There's issues mental health,

Kim Muench 37:32
all, not every kid, right, right? But not every kid. Is that going, you know, they if they've tried pot at 15, or if they drank it, you know, are they going to end up in rehab? And that's true,

Casey O'Roarty 37:44
right? And so it's really and, of course, honoring your experience, right? And under, you know, and have it like not all of us have a family story that we can enter into that's actually really useful as kind of pulling back the curtain on the quote, experimenting in such a way that is so close to home.

Kim Muench 38:08
Yeah, and I totally understand what you're saying. And I think then, had I not had this experience, I believe that I would feel like, okay, I need to listen to my mom gut here. And I think that's really, really key. I need to listen to my mom gut and watch the chain of events. I mean, if you can tell things are going on and your kids experimenting, as long as you're in awareness, but then you see things escalate to a point of, you know, kid gets a driver's license and they get in a crash and alcohol was involved. Okay? These are, these are beginning warning, you know, like, especially if something like that were to happen and the kid then continued, despite the fact that there were some pretty serious consequences in one way or another, right? That's an indication that, you know that, not that they have necessarily an addiction problem. That's not where I'm going, but what I'm saying is shifting of boundaries and whatnot. And that's why I would say this. There's always going to be drugs. There's also going to be new ways. I mean, kids are it's amazing what they

Casey O'Roarty 39:12
being killing me. It's too listeners have heard me talk about vaping already many times. I know it's huge access. It's crazy where we live,

Kim Muench 39:23
oh, my god, middle school. Yeah, it is. It is crazy. But because there's always going to be these new things, there's going to be drugs and apps and sneakiness and whatever the I think the greatest opportunity that we have is to is to build a connection or relationship with our kids that isn't so extreme in one way, like you and I and a lot of other you know, people were raised with, you know, so many rules and all these, you know, consequences, but then not just a free for all as well. So I think giving kids choices when we can also implementing parameters around their. Certain non negotiables. I told you what my mine is. I mean, that doesn't mean everybody has to have, you know, the same ones, but keeping those non negotiables to a minimum and giving your kids as many choices and being okay if they fail or if it takes them longer, yeah, it's detaching. It's, it's very, you know, like, ego based, you know what I mean, like just being able to say, My child came through me, but not for me, right? I mean, you can see so many times online when parents, you know, they put their child accomplishment this or that on there. And I'm guilty, I do that from time to time. But that's we're looking for validation at some level with, you know, I need to pat myself on the back publicly, because my kid accomplished this. And what we want is our kids to be able to listen to their own inner voice and their own guidance and support that.

Casey O'Roarty 40:57
Yes, yes. And it's a, you know, I talk about the pendulum swing a lot. I think it's, I haven't seen it so much with my son, although I know it's coming. But with the daughter man, that the pendulum swing between like connected and loving and willing to like snuggle, versus, you know, disconnection and get away from me and I'm in a mood, and sometimes the pendulum. I mean, it's like a five minute switch, but I also notice my own pendulum swing. And something that's interesting is the way that control will kind of sneak in. Sometimes it feels really solid, like I trust our relationship. I trust in her learning from her mistakes, and then it's like this sneaky thing where I realize, like, Oh, I am trolling her social media right now. I need to get off her social media, you know, and I'm looking for signs or clues or comments, and I don't realize I'm doing it until I realize I'm doing it. And then I get to take a pause and say, hold on. You know, I if I'm gonna I can't be both. I can't be both trusting in our relationship and trusting in her judgment while also hovering so yes,

Kim Muench 42:12
I agree, and I understand that some of the things that I may have said, you know, today, Sound easy and they're not. That's why I call it a practice, as I know you would. You know there are going to be moments, and we have to be able to give ourselves Grace at some point. You know, with some of these things, when, when, when we okay, you find yourself doing that. Then you ask yourself, Okay, who do I want to be in this relationship? How do I want to show up? Because I said I trust her, and here I am doing this. So then you answer that question and you move on. Yeah, answer

Casey O'Roarty 42:47
the question and move on. Move on. People, for the parents that are listening and feeling as though maybe they've lost connection or relationship with their teens and are perhaps really attached, and are just like listening to us and thinking, oh my gosh, having a new lens to see where they're at. What do you suggest as a starting point, either in rebuilding relationship or in their work of like letting go of outcome?

Kim Muench 43:21
I think that you have to ask yourself this you can be right, or you can be in relationship, and I don't think the two coexist very often in these years. And you have to look at this as a long term thing. When your children are grown and gone, do you want them to visit and, you know, do you want to have a relationship with potentially, you know, grandchildren and whatnot, or, what is it? What does it look like? And what I've seen and experienced with my own older children that are out of the house at this point is that they continue to come back and engage with me, not because they need anything other than just to share with me the joys or the challenges that are going on in their lives as an adult. And I do and they care. At this point, they're asking me. They're asking me, how are you doing, mom, how was your day? How's work going whatever kind of thing. So I think that's what we want, in the end, is to be able to have a fantastic, open relationship with our adult children. If you are feeling that you are disconnected at this point, I say one thing, and that is, it is never too late, and that I think there is real value in sitting down and being honest with your child about how you've parented up until this point, and that you'd like to see some things shift, and that you're going to work on it as a parent. Love it.

Casey O'Roarty 44:49
I love that. And when you know, when you consider how much, how many more years we have to be in relationship with our adult children, then this small period of time. Where they live under our roof, that really puts things into perspective for me too. So in the context of raising teenagers, what does joyful courage mean to you? Kim,

Kim Muench 45:13
let's see joyful courage means to me, enthusiastically embracing and supporting the journey of our sons and daughters that have come into the world to live out their journey, supporting and encouraging them with enthusiasm. And I love the two words together, joyful and courage. I think it's fantastic.

Casey O'Roarty 45:33
I love the word enthusiasm,

Kim Muench 45:37
sometimes hard as a parent, but that's that's what I think of. Find some

Casey O'Roarty 45:41
enthusiasm. Well, remind listeners where they can find you and follow your work.

Kim Muench 45:45
My website is real life parentguide.com, and you can spell that with 1l or two, so you're gonna get there either way. I'm on, I have a do have a Facebook page, real life Parent Guide. And then I'm also on Twitter, at mom the number four reels, R, E, A, l, z, so you can find me in those places. Yay. Well, Kim, thank

Casey O'Roarty 46:05
you so much for taking the time to come on and chat with me about teenagers. Oh my gosh, we have to do this again.

Kim Muench 46:12
Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me again. I really appreciate the opportunity.

Casey O'Roarty 46:20
So yesterday was my 45th birthday. Yes, it's totally crazy and amazing to be saying that I am 45 years old. I've loved my 40s. So for all of you 20 and 30 somethings out there, know that it only gets better. 40s rock to celebrate. I am slashing the prices of my stock of intention bracelets, tank tops and intention cards. Everything that is in the shop right now is half off through the month of September. Head to www. Dot joyful courage.com/shop. To see what's good and place your order today. When the stuff is gone, it's gone. I am not sure my calling is in retail, so I don't know when or if I'll have these products available again, so head on over. Joyful courage.com/shop, 50% off everything. Woohoo.

Joyful courage, community, you're amazing. Big thanks. And love to my team, including my producer, Chris Mann at pod shaper, be sure to join in the discussion. Over at the live in love with joyful courage group page, as well as the joyful courage business page on Facebook and Instagram. Subscribe to the show through Apple podcasts, or really, anywhere you find your favorite podcast, you can view the current joyful courage swag over at the web page, intention cards, bracelets. E course offers the membership program, one on one coaching. It's all waiting for you to take a look. Simply head to www dot joyful courage.com/yes. That's joyful courage.com/y. E, S, to find more support for your conscious parenting journey. Any comments or feedback about this show or any others can be sent to [email protected] I personally read and respond to all the emails that come my way, reach out, take a breath, drop into your body, find the balcony seat and trust that everyone is going to be okay.

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