What does Joyful Courage mean to you?

Oh my gosh, to me joyful courage is all about that permission, that freeing sense of permission that I got from observing parents who knew that, you know, making little mistakes in a day to day conversation with our kids about healthy sexuality, it’s meaningless, those little mistakes. The big thing that we’re doing right, you know, having an interest in relating with them on the subject and so when I realize that, you know, it’s not a thing to damage our kids by telling them too much, it’s not a thing to damage our kids by telling them something that wasn’t accurate one day and coming back, circling back to it another day. It’s, you know, knowing that I could be gentle with myself and that we can actually have fun with the conversation once they kind of got to just be a thread through our normal life, you know, basically joyful courage for me is about going headlong into it, you know, with optimism and cheerfulness and hope and trust.

 

Resources

Beyond Birds & Bees: Bringing Home a New Message to Our Kids about Sex, Love, and Equality

 

Where to find Bonnie

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Transcription

Casey O'Roarty 0:04
Hey, what is up podcast, listeners, I am so glad that you have found yourself at the joyful courage podcast. This is a place where we celebrate real and raw conversations about raising kids with conscious parenting and positive discipline. I'm your host. Casey o'rourdy, I'm a facilitator. I'm a parent coach. Most importantly, I am a mom of two teenagers, and I am walking the path of more mindful, intentional parenting right alongside of you. Please know that this podcast is created for you. I create it for you and for our community. And if you love it, feel free to share it with all of your family and friends over social media. Let's spread the word. Let's get as many people as possible listening to this show. Please write a review on Apple's podcast, formerly known as iTunes, and join the Patreon community, where parents, just like you are contributing just a small little amount each month to the show and enjoying perks like monthly webinars and community conversations about the content you hear on this podcast. Check the show notes for links and more details on all of that. I am so, so grateful that you are here and now. Enjoy the show. Hey, podcast listeners, welcome back. My guest today is Bonnie J ruff. Bonnie is an author, journalist and speaker focusing on family's health, education, parenting and sexuality. Her latest book is beyond birds and bees, bringing home a new message to our kids about sex, love and equality. She's written recently for the New York Times on teaching young children about boundaries and consent. The Atlantic on the link between sex ed and gender equality and the cut on raising kids without sexual shame, as well as the Washington Post on why it's important to teach kids about sex in mixed gendered groups. I am so excited to welcome her to the podcast. Hi Bonnie.

Bonnie J. Rough 2:12
Hi Casey, thank you so much for having me.

Casey O'Roarty 2:15
You are so welcome. I'm so glad to have you. Please share a little bit more with the listeners about how you found yourself doing what you do? Yeah,

Bonnie J. Rough 2:23
it's been a discovery process. You know, I think I've always known that I'm a writer, because I would have been someone who just couldn't figure out what I wanted to do in life. I always get fascinated by a new subject and just want to dig in and explore and learn as much as I can until until I'm satisfied. So being a writer and a journalist lets me dig deep and then go on to the next thing that that fascinates me. So I've found over the course of of my writing career that even though my books are very different, one to the next, so far, they all seem to have these common threads that I'm now with beyond birds and bees finally starting to see and those are very much family, parenting, health and sexuality, especially, you know, I've been really inspired by girls and women's experiences, and it's been really fun with beyond birds and bees to open up that exploration into gender experiences in general. So so beyond birds and bees is a really fun kind of my first two books are memoirs, so they're more literary books. And beyond birds and bees is this really fun throwback to my journalism days, my reporter days, and it's just been awesome to have the chance to write in a more topical way about these subjects that are so so exciting and so needed in our education at the moment. Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 3:49
and you have daughters,

Bonnie J. Rough 3:50
right? Yes, yes, of course. So that's it's not a coincidence. Thank you for the important reminder that I am also a mom. I live in Seattle with my husband and the father of our two daughters, who are now 11 and seven, so I have a middle schooler and an elementary schooler, and certainly, being a parent has has been a major piece of the inspiration for every big work that I do in my writing? Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 4:21
I find it's a really fascinating adventure to be both someone who is influencing writing, speaking about an experience, while also living it right, living it with our inside of our own family. So I'm guessing that you're like me and your your professional work is also really personal.

Bonnie J. Rough 4:44
Yeah, it goes back and forth from, I think, responding to things that are happening in my life and wanting to know, Okay, how did I do or, you know, what could I do if that comes up again? And then also, I'm a real kind of over planner, preparer type. For what I anticipate will be life's challenges. So historically, you know, my

first book is about 15 years

or, yeah, I just try, I think I use my work as an opportunity to get myself ready for challenges I anticipate that I'll face as a parent. Or, you know, I mean, my first book was about a genetic disorder that runs in my family, and what it was like for my husband and I to be in the generation of the test. And, you know, DNA test, prenatal testing, all that, and making a decision about whether and how to have biological children. And you know, so much of that decision making in that book happened like, you know, years and months before we ever actually had a pregnancy. So I'm a planner, and I love to explore, you know, what I think might be coming. I just kind of figure out, what are my big question marks? What am I what makes me nervous? What am I afraid of? And then I guess it's kind of like a an exposure, sort of therapy. I go after it and see if I can get used to things before, you know in time for that to come,

Casey O'Roarty 6:01
right? And so your book, birth beyond birds and bees is heavily influenced by what you learned and observed during your experience of living in Amsterdam. I feel like reading your book. I was like, Oh, my God, everyone should have to live in Amsterdam. Talk a little bit about how the Dutch culture played a part in informing your content.

Bonnie J. Rough 6:25
Well, you know, I think the first thing I'll say is that I did not pick up on it at first. I went to live in Amsterdam with with Dan and our oldest daughter when she was not even quite two, and we lived there for a year and a half when we were just kind of figuring out the whole parenting gig, and so we were, I was noticing a lot of things that stood out to me about differences between what Dutch and American parents did, including how Dutch and American moms and dads and grandmas and grandpas and nannies and teachers in the preschools and the upper schools would or the older schools would, approach bodies and sexuality and, you know, really normalizing that kind of thing. But it wasn't, it didn't really sink in for me. You know why that mattered more than the fun fact that Dutch parents also let their kids eat toast with sprinkles on it for breakfast, that all kind of sunk in later. You know, when, when we lived in Amsterdam, aside from kind of the other fun cultural things that were different. There was something that really jumped out at me as different within myself. I felt better and more comfortable and happier in my body as a woman than I had ever felt in my adult life. Just really comfortable and at home in my skin in a way that I would have thought I never could have felt again. It's, I think it's something we all experience for a time, and in childhood, you know, just this sort of inherent worth and belonging in the world, and it was the most freeing, inspiring, energizing atmosphere to live in. But again, like I didn't know why that was happening. I just loved it. So moving back here to the US, after our stay there, we had our second daughter, and, you know, really looked around and saw how the experiences that we offer boys and girls in the US are just, you know, so much more gendered and different. So as we had our new baby, I kind of had a freak out. I noticed how much more of a sexist culture that we lived in, and realized that I had had the experience of living in a more gender equal society, and I felt it to my core. It changed the way I lived and the way I felt about myself, and I wanted that for my kids, and I wanted that for every kid and every person. And so that was when I decided to go back and take a closer look and see if I could discover if there really was a connection between those little things I noticed about, you know, the ways parents and teachers would normalize nudity and help the genders stay comfortable with each other throughout childhood and accept childhood sexual exploration and children's sexuality as like part of normal, healthy development. In case, that was what was building toward that, that incredible, powerful social effect of of gender equality. I learned that the Dutch have fantastic sexual health statistics, but also some of the highest gender equality in the world, the latest ranking, or third from the best, while we in the US are still trying to crack the top 40. And for me, I got the opportunity to see how that feels to live in that and how families and schools build that from birth on up. Yeah.

Casey O'Roarty 9:39
So what I'm hearing you say is that like that sex education, and I think that it's interesting, and I'm guessing, and this is probably the American in me, whenever we say sex ed, it's like the deed, right? It's like education around getting it on, which it's so much more expansive than that. And right? What I'm hearing you say it's like, it's the bodies, it's how genders are encouraged to interact with each other. And I'm hearing you really talk about how all of this is just kind of woven into the fabric of raising kids, right?

Bonnie J. Rough 10:14
And I think a lot of it as you know, parents, no matter where we are, we are working a lot of the same important angles that we need to be not just, you know, we are teach. We're doing our best to teach our kids those body parts and making sure that they have accurate terminology for those nicknames are fine, right? But a child does need to know the correct terminology for everything from their nose and their elbow to their penis, so their vulva. And so we're doing that the best we can and yet. And then on the other side, we're also, I think, just really naturally, making sure that we give them a social, emotional context to complement that. So we're teaching them, you know, did you ask first before you, you know, tackled your friend when they came over for a play date to, you know, giving them just early beginnings about what is consent, what is a healthy friendship? Does your friend have the you know, like the same things you like? Do they have different boundaries from yours? You know, reminding kids they're obligated to respect other people's boundaries? Those are really kind of normal social, emotional things that lots of caring parents are teaching their kids without realizing that what they're doing is half of the the job of nurturing healthy sexuality in their kids, and then that other half is just really being open about those, about bodies and reproduction, sexual diversity and practicing talking about it enough so that it, it feels normal, you know, I think, yeah, just, it was really a big eye opener for me, living in the Netherlands, to see, you know, the families letting their kids splash around naked in the park, and not just really little kids in the waiting pool. Or, you

know, you know even going, you know, toilet training side by side. You know across genders in the preschool, whether it was one little bathroom and one little row of potties and no dividers, so that kids would get used to the idea like bodies are normal. Genders are more alike than different. Bodies have their differences, and that doesn't that that kind of, that's all but we can be used to those. We don't have to be, you know, morbidly fascinated by them, because if they're normalized, then they're not embarrassing. We don't kind of get those little seeds of shame planted early by, you know, implying that there's something humiliating here, or something we need to be really secretive about. So it was just incredible to learn about that difference between normalizing kind of everyday, non sexual human body nudity and separating that in their minds from erotic nudity. Whereas I had thought, I kind of think that distinctions missing in my culture, in the US and in my family. So that was something we found ways to work on,

Casey O'Roarty 13:04
yeah, and I'm guessing too, like, because of erotic sexuality, that's like the birthplace of the fear, of all of it, right? Like, somehow this is going to be an open door to misconduct and abuse and assaults, and we're so, I mean, God, this, look at the it's happening in the news reels right now, around just fear base, like people being motivated into action because of fear, versus like, hey, let's, let's, let's pull up and out of this. And really look at it. And that's really, what I appreciate about your book, is it's just really none it's not hysterical, like it's not from this hysterical, oh my god, we have to do better because, oh my god, law. And I think, you know, we're gonna move into talking about the teen years, right? And I really appreciate how well your book highlights kind of the overarching, oh my god. How do we make sure they don't have sex mentality that so many of us have, and if I'm fully honest, including me, sure you know we are we Americans are hung up on this. So tease that mentality apart a little bit, because you have some great stories in the book that were touchstones for you in recognizing, oh yeah, there are different mindsets around teens and sex. Share a little bit about your experience and what you've learned. Sure,

Bonnie J. Rough 14:38
Sure, I'd love to Yeah. Well, first of all, just to back up, I mean, I was right there with that, you know, when I was, when my first child was almost three years old, or about three, I got this, you know, kind of horrible feeling that I was way behind in teaching her about her body and, you know, giving her. Proper terminology, and all those things that I believed that she should have, but I hadn't quite, you know, mustered it up at bath time or anything to just actually start getting those words out and practicing that normalization. And what it was actually keeping me up at night, because I was so afraid that if she didn't have those words, and this is true, it would be harder for her to tell me if something not okay was happening to her out in the world. I mean, she went to preschool every day. I mean, she had starting to have her own little life at three, and so I was scared to death, and that is what motivated me to start talking to my daughter about her body. And I didn't realize, excuse me, I didn't realize that until years later, that when I looking back, it's like, Darn, I wish I had, you know, done a little more like the Dutch and started a little sooner, like, a little more like, you know, yippee diaper changes and cheerful tone of voice, and when, you know, teaching body parts, you know, all at the same time. And, but yeah, I mean, it really just carries through. I learned at one point, not only do the Dutch have you know, Dutch, Dutch and American teenagers have sex for the first time right around the same age, excuse me, between like between 17 and 18 and then. But unfortunately, American teenagers end up having babies at more than five times the rate of their Dutch peers, and those Dutch peers also, they catch fewer STIs, they have fewer abortions, they sleep around less, they take fewer risks, in general. And so that's all great, right, but that's all related to those fears, like what we don't want to have happen. But then I learned that Dutch people will look back on their first sexual experience, and they're more than twice as likely as Americans to say that that first experience was positive, that it was fully wanted and enjoyed, well timed within their control. And that was a huge mind shift for me to realize, okay, wait a minute, I've been thinking in terms of worries and things I don't want to have happen to my kids in their sexual lives. It has never occurred to me until now to think about, what do I want for them in their social in their sexual lives? What are my hopes and dreams for my children in their sexual lives? I mean, it sounded even like a crazy question at first, and then I realized it's crazy not to be asking that question, right? Yeah. So it was really amazing to start meeting families in Holland and in the US who had found ways of being open and accepting of their teenagers sexuality and their and their teenagers, active sex lives. And what I learned is that the focus on trying to help kids wait longer is not and should not be the end all, it's it's really more about, how can we help prepare them to have a positive experience? So that requires us, you know, as parents and caregivers, to dream up like, what is that? We don't have to get super explicit thinking about our kids, you know, sex lives. But at the same time, I think just some basic sense of what kind of a relationship do I hope that's in, what do I how open do I want those lines of communication to be? Do I want them to know that they can rely on me to pay for their birth control, just like I pay for maybe their their tampons or period supplies, you know. So how, how supportive, involved and nurturing can I? Can I be in a relationship with my child up until the time that they get interested in starting their sexual experiences, so that they will come to me and say, Mom, Dad, so and so. And I are thinking about this. Can we talk about it? I know that might sound crazy, because traditionally, here in the US, you know, the way to go is secrecy, you know, park the car. But it's not unheard of. I've, I've seen awesome, inspiring examples of families who achieve that and and keep just have established from the time their their kids are little, those open lines of communication, even if you know their kids are growing up faster than they want them to the Dutch parents who I met and and the American ones too, who have inspired me on this really are prioritizing their relationship with their kids over their ideals about what and when their kids will do things.

Casey O'Roarty 19:30
Hi, listeners. Sorry to interrupt this amazing interview. If you are listening to this conversation and you are thinking, oh my gosh, I need more guidance with my teenager and support through these teen years. I am super excited to let you know that the parenting teens with positive discipline, audio summit forever access package continues to be available for a limited time. So if you. You listened into the audio summit back in January, and you are wishing that you could go back and re listen to some of those conversations. I got you covered. If you are thinking to yourself, What is this? What is this audio Summit? I didn't know anything about it. I got you covered too, the parenting teens with positive discipline. Audio Summit is a collection of 15 interviews with positive discipline trainers and lead trainers from around the world, talking about all the things, all the things parenting teens. We talk about how to be firm and maintain relationship individuation, the foundation of positive discipline. We talk about curfews. We talk about drugs and alcohol. We talk about eating disorders, anxiety and depression, sex and relationships. We talk about getting our kids to contribute. We have a fabulous conversation about schooling and homework. It is so good, and I know that you will love it. All you gotta do to get your forever package, forever. Access package is go to www, dot, joyful courage.com/teen, Summit. All one word teen Summit, that's www, dot, joyful courage.com/teen, Summit, and you will get the downloads to every single interview, as well as downloads to transcriptions of all of the interviews that I provide in the audio Summit. Yay. Go check it out now. Back to the interview. I love that. I mean, that's a huge theme every time I talk to somebody on this show or do a solo show. I mean, it's always about relationship, and it's so it's so funny. So a while ago, I went on my personal Facebook page and I just said, Hey, I'm doing a poll. I want to see who allows boys into their teen daughters rooms, like, who allows wow, you know. And I mean, I've never had more of a response on my personal page. And it was interesting, because at first, like, what came in really fast and furious were things like, what do you want to be a grandma? Like, every single response came from this place of, if there is a boy in the room, they're having sex and that and avoid, and you You're an idiot not to avoid that at all cost. And then, you know, I have a lot of parent educators and friends in the positive discipline world who also are my Facebook friends. And so slowly these more, you know, kind of more thoughtful, you know, questions and responses came in, and it was lovely, but it was, I mean, but the vast majority were like, are you insane? Like, why would you do that? You know. And of course, it came from my own conversation with my daughter, who was like, What is the big deal? And my mindset did go to, well, the big deal is there's a bed. And so really recognizing my own come from too, while also completely hearing what you're saying and wanting wanting that conversation, and wanting my kids to know that I won't fly off the handle, that I can be available and handle what it is that they're bringing but it's really interesting, isn't it? Because we really, and we were talking about this before I hit record, like the double standard lives strong. And I think girls are really held as victims, and our boys are seen as, you know, at least on the surface in the media, like boys have no control. Boys will be boys, and our girls, you know, they're the ones. They're going to be targets, and I don't want my kids to be hurt or to be hurtful. And so it's understandable that the path becomes avoid the situation at all costs,

Bonnie J. Rough 23:59
right? And what's missing, and all that is like, are we talking about what these fears and concerns are, you know, amongst ourselves, as parents, with our kids, are we helping our kids talk about them with each other? It's kind of a, you know, in so many other areas, as parents and teachers, we know better. We know that if we don't talk about it, we're sort of like, we're willing to gamble, yeah, and, and, yeah. So that's, you know, and one of the things that what you're sharing about with incredible informal poll on your personal Facebook page, which just sounds great I have to go read that,

Casey O'Roarty 24:33
um, is, you know,

Bonnie J. Rough 24:35
I'm thinking about how, first of all, Dutch and American parents sort of that big difference that that? Heck no, there's a really smart social scientist named Amy shallot who has looked at that and compared Dutch versus American parents attitudes toward teenage sexuality, and it's nine out of 10 Dutch parents who say, Yeah, I would consider letting my my teenage son or daughter have their boyfriend or girlfriend sleep over here at the house in my child's bedroom. And and, of course, it's one in 10 for American parents. The rest are like, Oh, we're my dead body and so, so there's that. And one thing I think that's really different, that is such a cool and easy thing that we can do in American culture, that's not even like weird and have to do with sex, is simply to really help support

our kids as they transition into kind of those preschool years when they have more cross gender friendships, to help them hold on to those friendships so boy, girl friendships, mixed gender friendships, mixed gender groups to really actively work on, telling our kids why those those relationships matter, that boys and girls gain things from spending time together and and and that in the future, having had cross gender friendships through middle childhood helps them So that by the time they arrive at adolescence and they're the same friend is coming over who's been coming over since first grade. First of all, I think for us as parents, it's like, well, why I know you and my child knows you, and we're in an authentic, you know, well worn relationship. So it probably wouldn't even occur to you to say, like, note, as of today, you're not going in that room anymore. I mean, maybe, but Right, right? But I think the thing is, in adolescence, if we have our boys and girls, or, you know, children of any gender. And of course, this whole conversation is really heteronormative, right? Because it assumes that every kid who's coming over is straight and you know, because then you have to start to think, well, if I you know if my child's friends are gay or lesbian, are they allowed in the bedroom? It's just a mess, right? Yeah, we shouldn't even need to think about that if we are, if we know that our kids aren't coming together as foreigners in adolescence, that they've been maintaining friendships and, yeah, cross genders and sexualities all throughout their middle childhood, so that it's just not. We don't have the sense that they don't know each other in adolescence. We can trust as parents that they think of each other as people first and people with genders next. Maybe, yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 27:17
well, and I'm also hearing, you know, knowing our kids friends, yeah, you know, knowing the kids that are showing up. And that was something that came up in the poll too. Where's that conversation of like, well, you know, it's not an across the board thing. Like, do I know this kid? What's you know? What do I know about them? How much time have they spent with our family? And I'm hearing, you know, I'm hearing you saying that as well. And I love that, I love that, you know, promoting cross gendered friendships, right? And relationships. And I have one child that that's been his norm is just running with the girls. He also has really good guy friends, and, you know, and that. So I wonder too, if that's a little advantage. Yeah, well, it's definitely an advantage, especially since he is a girl magnet, and he is, you know, almost 13, but he's not like, that awkward. I don't know how to talk to girls kind of kid, because that's the ticket. Oh, he's talking to girls. Yeah,

Bonnie J. Rough 28:18
you know exactly. You nailed it.

Casey O'Roarty 28:19
And I'm really aware of what's happening in our culture right now. And, you know, sometimes I'm like so, you know, you can't do this, or, you know, let's talk about, you know, what it looks like, what consent looks like. Let's talk about, you know, I'm reading articles and wanting to make sure that I'm not being just we don't talk about that, so I'm going to just ignore that. Eventually he is going to be in situations where there will be alcohol and, you know what, and just starting the conversation now he gets really irritated, right? Because he's like, Mom, I know that. And I'm like, Okay, I am so glad that you know that, and I feel like a much better parent for bringing it up. So just humor me right.

Bonnie J. Rough 29:07
There you go. Nice.

Casey O'Roarty 29:08
What are some other ways that we can keep the lines of communication open with our teenagers? And I hear you like and you even spoken to this, oh, I could have done better earlier on. I mean, some people might be listening to the show and thinking, oh my god, like I have done none of the things that this gal is talking about, and now I have a 1516, year old who I'm guessing, is sexually active or thinking about it, and we don't have this kind of communication. What are some tips that you have for those parents to be, you know, building and nurturing a relationship that allows for this kind of openness.

Bonnie J. Rough 29:45
Yeah, that's such a great question, and such an important one, because I think all of us as parents find ourselves like a little far too far down the road in one area or another, without, you know, maybe having been prepared. And, gosh, I. Story of our lives as parents. So it's, it's such a good question, and I think the first thing that I would say is, well, you can afford another few days probably to really think first about, you know, what you want your own values to be like I learned. I was really surprised to learn. I always thought, well, you know, for for people to wait longer to have their first sexual experience. And, of course, we have to pay attention to what laws are and think about how, you know, in general, maturity is increasing with age, and that's a good thing if, if kids are going to be experimenting sexually. But I always thought, you know, it's kind of well known that that the longer kids wait, the better off they'll be. And it turns out that that is in some ways, not necessarily supported in the research, and that it's possible that having healthy, reciprocal, you know, respectful, sexual intimacy in in the teen years can actually be good for teenagers in a lot of the ways that it's really good for adults. And so that really kind of made gave me pause, and I thought, Well, okay, so, so maybe, yeah, it's not, not even so I think, like, there's some stuff for us to grapple with as adults, right? Yeah. So then I think just taking a little time and thinking, You know what? And then the other thing to realize, too, is that the beauty of it is, you know, the more open we are, and often kind of we actually, if we have those open lines of communication, we actually have more control than if we forbid, because in many cases, the forbidding just kind of leads to furtive, secretive, you know, interactions between kids that we can't we can't help with, and that our kids might not come to us about if they need help. And so we have, we have the opportunity to really just figure out what it is that that we want, and for you know that how we want to orient ourselves to the idea of teenage sexuality, and if we're in a place where we feel like we can be open and supportive no matter what our kids tell us, or at least, you know, help guide them with that soft control that we can have, as long as there's an open line of communication. That's probably the starting point, and then otherwise, you know what you said before, about just, oh man, I wish I had said this sooner, or wish I'd brought this up sooner. I mean, that's something that I use to tell my kids, okay, I'm late to the party, and I'm telling you, I'm late to the party, and I wish I wasn't, but that's where, you know, sometimes, that's where the conversation starts. You know? What I found out? I read an article that said I should have told you such and such when you were four, but you're seven now, so let me tell you about it. You know, I mean, to me, that seems like a way in and then I also think in a gentler way that seems to be pretty reliable with kids who are willing to communicate with us about their social lives, is to just say, you know, what do your friends think about X, Y or Z? You know, are, you know? Do they talk about pornography? You know, they probably see it. Does it come up in conversation? You know? What? You know, do boys and girls in in your middle school spend much time working together? Is it pretty divided? You know, you can just find out, I think, from from them, what the prevailing opinions and and values are that they're encountering every day. And that gives us a chance to influence, though

Casey O'Roarty 33:21
I love that Bonnie, and what comes up for me as I listen to kind of model those questions is the importance of not having an agenda, because our kids radar is primed for whether or not something is a trap. And so I want to kind of put that out there, because, you know, I know that my part of my life's work is to, you know, manage my own micromanager, right? And so sometimes, when I come in, I can tell, typically, too, like, when my kids feel like, okay, this is a question that she's asking because she wants to tell me that whatever I have to say is wrong, and when I can feel that alive in the space, I get to own it too. Like I'm wondering if you're thinking that I'm looking for a certain answer here. Oh, I love, you know, and so kind of like what you were saying about, hey, this is something I probably should have said, you know, a long time ago, I think the more open and transparent we can be with our kids, the better, especially in this context, because, I mean, to try to have conversation and act like, Man, this is no big deal. It's gonna fall flat, right? We get to, like, full permission. I think to say, like, you know, this kind of makes me uncomfortable, but I feel like it's really important for us to be talking about this,

Bonnie J. Rough 34:46
yeah, yeah, if that's perfect, yeah, this is hard for me. Let me tell you a little bit about why. Here's how I grew up, you know, this is, this is what my parents or teachers did or didn't do for me around this. I'm still learning too. I mean, we are. As a generation, I think I just, I mean, so many of us have, I think, said from the time our kids were born like that, we want to be honest and open with them and make sure that they're grounded and comfortable in all their growth areas as they develop into whole people, including their sexuality. But very few of us have really reliably good models for how that looks, especially around sexuality, and so we can tell our kids that too, like, you know, yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 35:27
clearly, I mean the amount of stories that are coming to the surface right now, clearly we have not had good models of what it looks like to be open in conversations around sex and sexuality. So, yeah, we can do better. Well, yeah,

Bonnie J. Rough 35:44
a bit of a crazy maybe I'm too optimistic, but I I love telling young people now this is, this is as far as we we've been able to get. It's not a pretty picture. I have faith that you're going to do more, and you're going to, you're going to move us farther, and that's, that's you like, how can we help? Yeah, so

Casey O'Roarty 36:04
what are your thoughts around you know, because we all, we all live on the continuum of comfort around talking about sex and sexual development, and so for the parents coming into these conversations, how can we help ourselves in navigating all the feels and the baggage and the fear and like all the stuff, so that we can be available to these to our kids inside of these conversations. Do you have any thoughts around that? Oh, we get over ourselves.

Bonnie J. Rough 36:39
I mean, yeah, I think, I think a lot of that is really, really a lot of honoring ourselves and being forgiving with ourselves, and seeing that, you know, having a growth mindset about where we're headed, but knowing that we might not be there yet, and being okay with ourselves in that. So, you know, a couple of the things that I learned, observing the Dutch approach and asking experts are that, you know, first of all, you don't have to worry the way I was really worried about that. You'll tell your kid too much, too young,

Casey O'Roarty 37:08
so there'll be crazy sex maniacs,

Bonnie J. Rough 37:11
right? Exactly. It's like, I know it's so counterintuitive, but it's like, just the opposite. And then, you know, and it's really easy to say that, you know, ideally, we start when our kids are babies and we're practicing, you know, body terminology and things like that, so that we don't choke on those words. And then the older our kids get the you know, the more of a foundation we have to build on explanations and descriptions and that kind of thing, so that by the time our kids get older, we've grown together and we're all more comfortable with sexuality, so there might not be as many hang ups as if, you know, we've kind of felt like we needed to keep it kind of on lockdown, and so then, so then there's that, that question, right? If it's been on lockdown, I think it's still the same. I mean, I think it's still about practice, but now you sort of need an intensive, yeah, so that might be talking with with friends. I mean, look, I was the mother of two whole entire human female children when I realized I still don't know the difference between a vagina and a vulva. Like I better look it up, right? I need to start getting answers to these questions and getting more comfortable with, you know, whatever it is. And so I think, you know, there are great resources. I do have some of those on my website that I think are awesome for parents and young people alike. Yeah, but the more we can talk, I think, with our friends, with our kids teachers, with our kids themselves, with our partners, and, you know, with our younger children while our older children are around with our older children while our younger children are around. You know, it's all practice, and it all leads into that, you know, kind of more ease and normalization that we, you know, then can kind of enjoy later, as open lines of communication that we can rely on as as some of actually something that really can help us keep our kids, you know, healthy and happy and whole and experience love and intimacy and romance in those really wholesome ways that we want them to.

Casey O'Roarty 39:09
Yeah, well, and I just appreciate just authenticity, right? And talking to each other, and, you know, we talk about, we have no village. We have a village. It's just a matter of turning to the person next to you, reaching out to our friends and being willing to have uncomfortable conversations. So grateful for people like you and Amy Lang and other leaders who really are providing a lot of positive, powerful resources. So thank you so much pleasure work in the context of parenting our kids through their sexual development, what does joyful courage mean to you? Bonnie,

Bonnie J. Rough 39:49
oh my gosh. I to me, joyful courage is all about that permission that I that freeing sense of permission that I got from. Um, observing parents who knew that, you know, making little mistakes in a day to day conversation with our kids about healthy sexuality. It's meaningless, those little mistakes. The big thing that we're doing right is how, you know, having, having an interest in relating with them on that subject. And so when I realized that it, you know, it's, it's really hard. It's like, not, it's not a thing to damage our kids by telling them too much. It's not a thing to damage our kids by telling them something that wasn't accurate one day and coming back, circling back to it another day. It's, you know, knowing that I could be gentle with myself and that we could actually have fun with the conversations once they kind of got to just be a thread through our normal life. You know, basically joyful courage for me, and this is about going headlong into it, you know, with a with optimism and cheerfulness and hope and trust. I

Casey O'Roarty 40:54
love that. Thank you.

Bonnie J. Rough 40:57
Thank you. Where

Casey O'Roarty 40:58
can listeners find you and your book and all of your work. Listeners

Bonnie J. Rough 41:02
can find beyond birds and bees anywhere they love to buy a book, maybe their neighborhood indie or their favorite online retailer. And otherwise, I can be found online at my website, www, dot Bonnie, J, ruff, R, O, U, G, h.com, and there I have some of my favorite resources, and just a little bit more in depth on beyond birds and bees and beyond that, I could people can connect with me on Facebook or, yeah, Facebook mainly, but also Twitter and Instagram.

Casey O'Roarty 41:34
Awesome. Thank you so much for spending time with me and coming on the show.

Bonnie J. Rough 41:39
It's been great. Thank you

Casey O'Roarty 41:45
joyful courage community. Thank you so much for tuning in each and every week. Big thanks and love to my team, including my producer, Chris Mann at pod shaper. Be sure to join the discussion over at the live and love with joyful courage group page, as well as the joyful courage business pages on Facebook and Instagram. Subscribe to the show through Apple podcasts, Spotify, Google Play. I Heart Radio, really, anywhere you find your favorite podcasts. Also, I mentioned Patreon at the beginning of the show. Check it out. Www.patreon.com/joyful courage. This is where you can contribute to the show and take advantage of patron perks like content rich monthly webinars and deeper discussions about what's being shared on the podcast. You will like it. Www, dot P, A, T, R, e o n.com/joyful, courage. Any comments or feedback about this show or any others can be sent. Casey at joyful courage.com I personally read and respond to all the emails that come my way, so reach out. You can also sign up for my bi weekly newsletter at joyful courage.com just go to the website. Sign up for that. Take a breath. Drop into your body, find the balcony seat and trust that everyone is going to be okay. Big Love to each and every one of you have a beautiful rest of your day.

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