A conversation with Ariadne Brill about Making Agreements and Building Relationships

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Transcription

Casey O'Roarty 0:04
Kay, Hello, friends. Welcome to the joyful courage podcast, a place where we tease apart what it means to be a conscious parent and a conscious human on the wild ride of parenting. I am your host, Casey, positive discipline trainer, parent coach and Mama walk in the path right next to you as I imperfectly raise my own two teens. Joyful courage is all about grit. Grit stands for growth on the parenting journey, relationships that provide a sense of connection and meaning and influential tools that support everyone in being their best selves. I'm super excited to share today's show. You will hear more about it in my intro, but we are deep, diving into the emotional labor that lands on women. Now I see you dads out there listening and showing up in the community. You are so appreciated and valued. And I hope that this show exists to broaden your perspective around the experiences of moms. This is in no way a Wine Fest or a slam on you. Our conditioning runs deep. The more we learn, the better we get. Mamas, my guess is that you will feel seen, heard and validated in today's conversation. Thank you so much for listening. I am always deeply honored to lead you. I am grateful that what I put out matters to you, and I am also really, really excited to keep it coming. Thank you for who you are and for being in the community. Enjoy the show. Hi

Speaker 1 1:40
listeners.

Casey O'Roarty 1:47
I am so excited that you're here. My guest today is Gemma Hartley. Gemma is a freelance journalist and the author of fed up, emotional labor women and the way forward. She is the mom, also of three kids, ages five, seven and 10. Hi, Gemma, welcome to the podcast.

Gemma Hartley 2:07
Hi, thanks for having me.

Casey O'Roarty 2:09
Can you talk a little bit about your journey of doing what you do? Yeah.

Gemma Hartley 2:14
So my journey as a writer sort of started in doing my undergrad in English writing, and then I immediately had kids. To avoid answering that question of, what are you going to do after you graduate? I mean, seriously, I was walking across the stage to get my diploma. Nine months pregnant. I had my son the next week, and 10 out of 10. Like, do not recommend doing that. Like, just don't know what to do with your life. It's gonna be okay. You don't have to have a baby.

Casey O'Roarty 2:48
That's a lot of work being pregnant and finishing up school. I had my first in the middle of graduate school, and it was like, Whoa, tighter. It

Gemma Hartley 2:56
was, it was not the best idea I've ever had. I was a winter graduate. And so how that worked was that we would walk and get our diplomas, and then we still had finals the next week. And so my son was born on one of our finals days, like me and my husband and he, he ended up failing a few courses because they were not as understanding, because he was not the one that was pregnant. I ended up being fine. And my, you know, my work was mostly portfolio work as a writing major, so they knew that, you know, it had all been done. I wasn't taking tests on engineering and math, so I didn't have to do any of that. Got it, got it. So I ended up, you know, staying at home doing in home daycare with my son. And I got really into mom blogs because they they helped me feel a lot less alone when I was living this very isolated life, you know, staying at home with babies while all my friends were going to graduate school or getting their first jobs out of college, and I ended up reaching out to some of those mom bloggers that I admired, and I started writing guest posts for them and sort of sharing those stories and finding connection with other people that were out there that were young moms and young wives and had postpartum depression like I did, and it was just a really nice way to not feel so alienated like I did in my real life. And it also helped me connect with people who were, you know, going through the same thing that I was, which is really what made me fall in love with the kind of writing I continue to do now, I think that's the best part of writing, is you find your people like you speak to them through writing. And those connections I made with you know, Mom bloggers, back when my kids were really little, it didn't just guide me. Motherhood, but it also helped me break into the world of freelance, which is what I do now. These women help me find paid gigs. Eventually turned into a whole career that I could support my family with. Yeah, and then one day, back in like 2017 I was doing all my regular freelance stuff, and one of my articles, women aren't nags, were just fed up. It blew up and went mega viral, like half a million shares in a week. It got tweeted by Melinda Gates, or like probably her social media manager, but we'll

Casey O'Roarty 5:37
just say it was Melinda. She saw it. She was excited. She retweeted, yeah.

Gemma Hartley 5:42
She was like, Yes, this is the best thing I've read this week. Let me share that with everyone. Pretend she runs her own social media. And that article led to a book deal in a really fast and furious way, where it was like, one week it, you know, the article published in the next week, I had agents contacting and then I had a proposal. The next week, calls with editors. The week after that, it was a month from that article going live to me having a signed contract with one of the HarperCollins imprints. So it was really, really fast and out of nowhere,

Casey O'Roarty 6:22
wow. And in the meantime, you're also mothering what at that point, a two, four and a seven year old

Gemma Hartley 6:32
inside of all of that, something like that. They were somewhere around those ages.

Casey O'Roarty 6:36
So talk a little bit about that article. What was it? Do you think about that article that resonated so heavily with the people that were reading it?

Gemma Hartley 6:45
Yeah. So I think one of the big problems about what I describe as emotional labor, or invisible labor in the book, is that we didn't have any language to talk about it, so we would just like pull together all these really disparate things, like I'm upset that my husband leaves a socks on the floor, and I'm upset that no one knows what to do without me telling them. And I sort of figured out how to put all of that into words during this essay, which was really about my husband on Mother's Day instead of getting me a cleaning service, because decided to clean the bathrooms himself on Mother's Day, which led to me not having a great Mother's Day. And there was a moment where I was putting away the gift wrap that he had gotten out and that had been sitting in the closet for days, and I kept seeing it and being like, There's no way he's waiting for me to ask him to put back this thing that he got out that is very in the way. And he was, I suppose, in a way, subconsciously doing that. And so I very passive aggressively, like, went into the kitchen and drug A chair into our closet to try and, like, heave this really heavy box back up into, you know, the top of our closet. And he came in and he said, If you want me to put that away, all you have to do is ask. And it was like, this light bulb moment that I did not deal well with. I was like, That's it. That's the thing. Like, I don't want to have to ask. I want a partner that has equal initiative. And that came out as me, just like having a meltdown in the closet and crying. But I put it all into words later and made it seem like I, you know, had it much more together than I did that day.

Casey O'Roarty 8:38
We always do that.

I can't even tell you, Gemma, how timely this conversation is for me, personally in my life and my own little meltdown that occurred just last night. My kids are older than your kids. They're 15, and my daughter will be 18 in a couple of weeks. So you know, as they get older, there's this assumption that we make that you know you're gonna it's gonna be less of me telling you and more of you just recognizing the need and following through on it. And I know that so many people listening can relate to I love the phrase emotional labor. Can we tease that apart even a little bit more? Because it's bigger than just I don't want to have to ask, right? Like, what is it that we moms have been conditioned to hold that what you think would fall under emotional labor,

Gemma Hartley 9:46
yeah. So I think the easiest way isn't just giving examples, because the examples can go on forever, but it's sort of breaking down the different parts of it, which are, you know, noticing what. What needs to be done, making a plan for how it's going to get done, and that either involves, you know, delegating out that work, or, you know, doing it yourself. Because sometimes easier to do it yourself than to know that it's going to get done. Because if you delegate, then you also have to monitor that work. It never actually leaves your plate, so you are the one that is, you know, keeping up and keeping track of what is getting done. And it's constantly having that, like mental list running through your mind of all of those components. And, you know, there's this assumption that, because men are doing more in the home, like when we do the delegation part, and then they complete a task, often with many reminders that we've somehow reached equality because we're doing an equal amount of work, if that's the case. But that is not really the case at all, because there are all of these other parts that we are still responsible for,

Casey O'Roarty 11:02
right? Well, and I think about, you know, we have at my house, there's also some, like, we have some health issues that are being navigated. And I, I notice that I am thinking about things like, gosh, have we scheduled that doctor's appointment. Is it on the calendar and is it coming up? Should I be thinking about, you know, like, there's so many little things that are going through my mind that I know, I'm pretty sure nobody else is thinking about,

Gemma Hartley 11:35
yeah, because all of that noticing and planning work has always been in your court, yeah? Like, no one, literally, no one else is thinking about it, right?

Casey O'Roarty 11:46
And the funny thing is, you know, the tension also lies with I like being the one that knows all the things. You know, I notice that when I'm like, I am not going to be in charge of this anymore. This is for you. It is so challenging for me to actually release it from my mind and not continue to be like but I also need you to show me in some way that you're taking care of it, because I'm still paying attention.

Gemma Hartley 12:18
Yeah, I think that's that's a real struggle for a few reasons. It's not solely like, I know for me, at least, it is part of like I do, like, a little bit of control, like, probably more than I should, yeah. But on the other hand, I think that this is really common, because a lot of the times we've been let down, things get forgotten, and there is still this assumption that you're responsible for it. Like, even as we let things go and say, Yeah, I'm going to take that off my plate and I'm going to hand that over to you. The rest of the world doesn't agree with that. There's sort of this expectation like, well, you know, mom's supposed to do that. All moms are supposed to do that. I got to talk to Tiffany bufu When I was writing my book, and it's just like, you know, she handed over birthday invitations and all things birthday to her husband. And when that doesn't get done, you know, that's hard for her kids. But it's also hard, because there's other moms that are like, hey, that mom really isn't doing her job if she's not following up and monitoring her husband and making sure that those invitations get replied to, or that, you know, all the RSVPs get done. It's very difficult. It's not just changing things within our own homes, but within our culture, we need to see a lot of change in order for the balance of emotional labor to get better. Yeah.

Casey O'Roarty 13:47
Can you paint a picture of what like some of the shared standards and that equality and emotional labor could look like? What does it look like to move towards that emotional or otherwise? Yeah.

Gemma Hartley 14:01
So I think what we often have in our culture is this argument that if you want to, you know, have something not on your plate anymore, you have to just let it go completely, and that means also letting go of your standards completely, right and right? Yeah. So it's like, if you are with a partner who thinks, you know, it's fine for there to be, like, mold growing in the refrigerator and you aren't comfortable with that, you know, it doesn't even have to be that extreme. It can

Casey O'Roarty 14:36
be the way the towels are folded. I mean, I'm just speaking for a friend here, but

Gemma Hartley 14:41
is that friend me? Because I'm pretty sure I wrote about that

Casey O'Roarty 14:44
there's a really easy way to fold towels, and it's tidy and useful. Come on, everyone,

Gemma Hartley 14:51
yes, there are things like that, which I think like, Okay, I could probably let that one, yeah, yeah. There. Are other things, you know, where it's like, oh, well, you know, why do the dishes need to get done right now? Like, why can't we just leave them in the sink overnight? And, you know, why does laundry need to get done at this time? And part of that is, you know, I think a lot of the women that I've spoken to, and myself included, most of these standards are not arbitrary. We don't just do them because we really like things being done our way. It's because it works. And we know it works because we have been doing all of this planning work, and we see that. You know, if the laundry doesn't get done today, this kid's not going to have a uniform for his you know, rock climbing practice tomorrow, and if this doesn't get done in this way, then hear how all the dominoes will fall afterwards. So when we say, you know, just let it go, this work doesn't matter, is basically what we're saying. When we tell women, they just need to let things go, it's like, oh, well, everything you're doing is just You're stressing yourself out for no reason. Very rarely found that to be true. In my research, we're just doing all of these things to try to carve out some space for ourselves in the world by making things run well, because it's so hard otherwise, to keep life running smoothly and feel like we have any space for ourselves.

Casey O'Roarty 16:24
Oh, amen to that, Gemma. I'm so glad to hear you say that. And there are definitely places where, like the bed making nobody cares about it, but me. And so you know what I've I make the bed. I make the bed it looks the way I want it to look. And if I don't make the bed, it's fine, nobody cares. But if I want the bed made, I'm the one that makes it. So there are places where I can notice my own tension and my own control. You know, yeah, there's an invitation there. And I love what you just said about, like, it's not arbitrary. It's, you know, the towels fit well in the cabinet when they're folded a certain way. Like,

Gemma Hartley 17:08
yeah, most of the things we do we, like, there's, there seems to be this sort of expectation that, like, oh, well, you know, we're just doing everything because we want things our way, and we secretly want all that control. I don't, I don't think that's true for the most part. I think mostly we are doing what makes sense, because we've done a lot of trial and error to get to this point where things are running smoothly. Yeah, and I say for the most part, because there are some exceptions. And we can talk about, you know, the perfectionism that we're conditioned to strive for. Or for me, this is me, especially how we constantly feel the need to level up. So if my husband came and, like, met my standards, I would be like, Oh, well, now I can do this, and now I can do this, and I can raise the bar indefinitely, like, until I am, like, living in a Marie Kondo dream. You know, I are those things that we need to look out for in ourselves? Yeah, but we also need to acknowledge that our standards exist for a reason, and we just need to make sure that we understand what those reasons are, and that we're intentional about them.

Casey O'Roarty 18:22
So I want to share with you a little funny thing that happens for me, and I don't know if it happens for other people. I think maybe it does, and I would love to get your take on it. So yes, I hold a lot of the emotional labor. And yes, my husband, you know, he does a lot, you know, and he'll do these little bursts where all of a sudden, in 15 minutes, all the bathrooms are clean. Like, spic and span clean. And, you know, he just does it. And I have this interesting like, rather than just like, Oh, thanks, I have this one on one hand, I have this like, should I be getting up and cleaning right now? Response, and then I'm also like, Oh, look at him. He can do it in 10 minutes. Big whoop. Did anything come up in your research about those kinds of responses?

Gemma Hartley 19:15
So to to the cleaning spree is getting done. You know, I think what came up most often was that what happened after those cleaning sprees was sort of a look at me, look at what I've done. Can we please just revel in how amazing I am for cleaning the kitchen? At least that's what had happened in, you know, my house,

Casey O'Roarty 19:38
yeah, yeah.

Gemma Hartley 19:40
And it was, you know, on the one hand, like I am so great, like, almost to the point where I'm more grateful than I should be. Like, should I be a normal occasion? But at the same time, you're like, Oh, I better, you know, thank him profusely for doing this thing in a. Hopes that he does it again. But you get that resentment because, like, who is thanking you for doing that work most of the time? And you know, like, yes, you clean the kitchen in 10 minutes, but the only reason you could do that is because I've been keeping it at this level of cleanliness for days and weeks before you even notice that there was something to do,

Casey O'Roarty 20:22
right? Like, there's that standard and then, and I gotta give my, my husband, credit, because he doesn't have the after, like, Look at me. He's pretty, you know, low key about it. It's actually funny. I'm thinking it must trigger something inside of me and my own conditioning around what I should or shouldn't be doing, or what you know the expectation is of me, it must just be like a subconscious little pattern that gets pinged when that happens. It's an interesting place to dig into, I'm sure, but I don't have to go too deep into that.

Gemma Hartley 20:56
I had like the opposite thing that I have described in my book, where I am like, the one on a cleaning binge, and then I'm like, Look at him. Look at him. Sit there, relax while I clean the base.

Casey O'Roarty 21:11
How dare he?

Gemma Hartley 21:12
How dare he sit while I'm doing this very you know, deep clean that does not need to be done right now. Like, I am, I am doing that to deal with some other issue. Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 21:26
onto him. Yeah. When my mom comes to visit, she goes into hardcore clean mode, and I have to check in with her, like, Mom, I'm she's like, is it okay? I just, I gotta do this. And I'm like, You know what, it is fine with me, as long as while you're doing it, you're not cussing me out for not being a better housekeeper. As long as that's not happening while you're cleaning, feel free go to

Speaker 2 21:47
town. A good time. Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 21:50
talk a little bit about so, you know. And there, you know, my husband and I have been together for 25 years. We have some really deeply ingrained patterns, and, you know, like I've been sharing, when I look through my own, like the lens of my own growth and awareness around where things are coming from, I see that there's work that I can do around letting go and detaching from outcomes. And I also want to notice, I notice that and other people have mentioned this too, when we come in for the conversation, right? When we want to have a conversation about emotional labor, you know, some of which, at the start, is just educating our family that it exists. Because I think we do a really good job of training them to not even realize it's a thing, because everything just happens well, because mom is paying attention, and I know for myself, sometimes my approach isn't always informative.

Gemma Hartley 22:54
A wee bit saying you're, are you saying you're a little bit angry and frustrated when,

Casey O'Roarty 22:59
well, my son's in the other room. I could pull him in. This happened just last night. The resentment kind of bubbled up, and he happened to be the target, and he got to hear from me about how I feel about the kitchen and walking in, thinking I was just going to grab my AirPods and go back down and be in bed when I wanted to be in bed, but instead, it was a 20 minute kitchen cleanup, because I didn't realize nobody had done it. Blah, blah, blah. What are your thoughts around being in conversation with our family in a way that supports them, like supports their I mean, I want to say buy in, but that doesn't really feel like the right language. Just supports them in recognizing and sharing the load.

Gemma Hartley 23:42
Yeah. So I think one of the best things that we can do now that there is so much more out there about emotional labor, is to have that like neutral introduction through a podcast or through a book where you can say, see, it's not just us. It's a cultural thing. It's a conditioning problem. And you know, like, if you're talking with a partner, it's not a you, you're wrong and I'm right. But rather that we've been raised in a way that normalizes putting all of this emotional labor onto women and moms especially. And you know, to sort of be able to say, our lives are going to be better if we can work together and balance that out. I know for especially my case, like I think that the book has a lot to offer, but sometimes, like for my husband, like asking him to read a whole book is just too much to ask, because he he's a slower reader than me, like I, I would be sitting there being like, have you finished that book

Casey O'Roarty 24:47
yet? Well, if you could rewrite it in the context of like a survivalist story, then you know that might work for my guy.

Gemma Hartley 24:57
But I think you know he constantly. Has, like, his earbuds in and is listening to podcasts. So if I find something that's really valuable, I'll try to find it in that medium. And so we can sort of start that conversation from a place where it's not like me rehashing the really simple 101, stuff like, let me you know, because that honestly is a part of the emotional labor that we do is like, let me absorb all of this information and then give you the Reader's Digest version. Like, no, there needs to be some expectation that we can count on the people in our lives to step up and try to understand our lives without us having to break it down for them, piece by piece. Like, the information is out there. I can, you know, I can point you in this direction, and then let's talk about it when you have a better understanding about it. And that this is the thing. Like you do have to talk about it afterwards, and you're gonna have to talk about it a lot, a lot more than you think. Everyone loves to ask me, like, what is that one magical conversation you have that fixes everything? And there is not one magical conversation. There are many, and they're not all going to be good, and they're not all going to be productive, but we need to make it normal to talk about this and to not have, you know, this fear around bringing it up. And I think that's something that, you know, I don't want to discount, because it is scary and it is vulnerable, especially when we're talking about, you know, going to our partners and saying, you know, if you're doing this in a non defensive way, you're really putting yourself out there and saying, you know, this is my life, and this is how I'm struggling. And you're wondering like, are you going to hear me? Are you going to see me? Are you going to meet me where I am? I think the fear isn't so much in having the conversation, it's having the conversation and then nothing changes. It's having that conversation and then finding out that your experience doesn't matter to the sharing your life with and that's a real fear. But I think the only way to create real change is to go to that point of no return like you can't beat around the bush. You need to know if you have someone who is in this with you, and that answer is going to change your life one way or the other.

Casey O'Roarty 27:28
Yeah, it reminds me too, just hearing you talk about that so I my audience often will hear me interviewing people and talking about parenting teenagers, and you know that special little thing that happens as they move into the teen years, which is very developmentally appropriate, is that they pull away, and it can look a lot of different ways. And when we talk about having vulnerable conversations, powerful conversations, uncomfortable conversations, without relationship and transparency, those conversations can be really tricky. So as I listen to you, I'm thinking to myself, you know, timing wise, and knowing that we want to show up vulnerably for our partners, kind of taking stock in the relationship, the current status of the relationship, meaning, you know, have you been taking time to connect? Because, I mean, I and what, and I as even as I'm saying this, it's coming up like it is vulnerable and it is painful on the other side, when we don't feel heard or we feel misunderstood. And so I'm just thinking about and reminding listeners that one of our parenting tools is to connect before correct or connect before redirect. And so really thinking about what that looks like in our relationship with our partners, and if again, emotional labor. Here's what you have to do to have this conversation. Moms, geez,

Gemma Hartley 29:06
that's so true. And this was like, one of the things that people would like pull from that original essay was that, like, even having the conversation about emotional labor is emotional labor. Like you can't escape it, yeah, but the thing is, like the point of having that conversation is to bring everyone into it. Like you're not going to get rid of your emotional labor. You just want everyone else to be in it with you, because there are benefits to it. I think one of the most interesting things about going through this process, not only of writing my book, but like actually going through the work with my husband was that he found different ways to connect with his life, like I think he had such a strong attachment to putting all of his worth in work. And then he lost his job at the same time that I got this book deal, and he had to. Just like, stay home and do this job that he always was like, oh, yeah, sure. You know, logically, I think, yes, there is worth in being a stay at home dad, but actually grappling with that for himself when he has these, you know, all this conditioning that tells him your only worth is in work. It was a lot for him. And as he started taking on more of that emotional labor, he was like, oh, you know, I'm I'm connected to this life in such a deeper way. I'm connected to my children in this different way. And it made our relationship so much stronger. And so another thing going into these conversations is, you know, being clear on your intention, which is that you know whether you're having it with your partner or with your older kids, like that, intention should be that you're on the same team and you're working together towards a common goal. You're not trying to fix someone else. You're trying to, you know, make the shared life that you have work for everyone.

Casey O'Roarty 31:03
Yeah, that's so useful. And I'm just thinking about going into a conversation. So one of the tools that we use, and now I'm recognizing it through this conversation, that it is actually a really powerful tool for the dispersing of emotional labor and the sharing of emotional labor is we have family meetings, and when we're at our best, we do them weekly. It's been a while since we've been consistent with weekly family meetings, but it makes such a huge difference. And one of my rattling ons last night to my husband, as I came downstairs after cleaning the kitchen, was, it's time for a family meeting. I'm not going to run it. We're not going to tell the kids what to do. We're going to say, what do you think? What do you want the routine to look like? How can we be to get, you know, on the same page? You know, because for a while now the kids are, you know, their favorite solution is, well, just tell us and we'll do it. And it's and I gotta give my kids credit, like they are, you know, they are, they are helpful. I mean, it's not worst case scenario over here, but it's the just tell us and we'll do it. That makes me crazy. And it's like, no, just notice it and then do it. Yeah. And

Gemma Hartley 32:24
I mean, that's a real problem, not only with kids, but like, a lot of the times I hear this from women with their partners, where it's like, well, how hard is it to tell me what do? And I'm like, Well, imagine if I came home and sat down and didn't do anything until you told me to do it. Like, tell me to get up and make dinner, tell me to get up and help put the kids to bed. Like, tell me to do every single thing, or I won't lift a finger. Like, that's exhausting. That's work. Yeah. So, you know, I think when we have these conversations, that's so key to make sure that everyone is involved, because this should be a process of reevaluating the life that you share, not one person reorganizing, like the micromanagement method,

Casey O'Roarty 33:11
right? Let me do a new whiteboard for everyone. Like, that's usually how it looks for me. Yeah,

Gemma Hartley 33:16
I think a lot of the times we go into this thinking, Okay, we're going to reorganize how I micromanage this household, and it needs to be a collaborative effort, and that's going to be uncomfortable, and it's going to take some getting used to but that's the only way I think it works and gets everyone on the same page. Yeah?

Casey O'Roarty 33:36
Well, and like I said, we use family meetings, and we, I, we, I love whiteboards. I think they're very useful when the kids were little, you know, we made use of, you know, co creating routine. Charts and visuals for me, are my fav. What are some of the tools that you use in your life that are is supporting and well, I have two questions. One is, I want to hear about some tools, more tools, and the other one is, what are we aiming for? Are we aiming because, like, even when I heard you say, you getting the book deal, your husband losing his job, and the your roles shift in how you're spending your days. Are we looking for? Like is equal the right word?

Gemma Hartley 34:26
You know, I don't know that it's the right word, because I think equal brings up this like 5050, idea that is totally not something we should strive for because it's impossible to get. I think what we're looking for is for everyone to feel supported. And so that doesn't have to be a 5050, split, where like everyone is doing exactly the same amount. It's is everyone supported in a way that makes them feel like they can do their best work, and that that. It's not necessarily, like, an equal split across the board. It's going to look different, and it's also going to have to shift a lot. Like, I think it's so difficult to try to, like, nail down, like, this is what you're going to do all the time, right? It needs to be this constant flow of people, like knowing that you should notice what needs to be done and notice what's going on in other people's lives, which is this, you know, I talk a lot about those mental load things, but there's also this emotional load of being able to be tuned in to everyone around you, and you can't be the only one that is like tuned in and trying to pick up the slack for other people. You need someone to do that for you, too, yeah. Oh, that's

Casey O'Roarty 35:45
really, really powerful. Thank you for that.

Now I in my research about you, I saw that you have written some articles even about, you know, the gender role conversation and how you're parenting your son's two sons and a daughter. Is that correct? Yes, daughters in the middle and daughters in the middle. What are you doing explicitly, if anything, to translate your work into the messaging that your kids are getting.

Gemma Hartley 36:26
So I think, you know, a big part of this for me has been modeling, you know, with my husband, what that looks like, since we've made those shifts. I think one of the things is, like I talked about how my husband would want a lot of praise for like, cleaning the kitchen. And I'm not necessarily someone who's like, No, we, you know, men should never be thanked for doing work. I think the problem was that I never had that reciprocal phrase, and so we thank each other a lot, especially, I think, in front of the kids for doing this type of work. So they see like, oh, it matters whether mom is doing it or Dad is doing it. And when they're, you know, pitching in and doing their part, I make sure that I thank them for helping to keep everything running like it should. And it's, it's ironic that I just use the word help because I don't. I never use that word in my house. That's the one big change in messaging I think that we've had is that I really have come to this place where I want my kids to know that what they do in the home, and you know what? What all of us do is, you know, contribute. Yes, it supports one another. It is not helping mom to clean up your own toys, and it's not helping mom. If you know, my husband decides to do the dishes or take on some extra work, that is how a household is supposed to work. We are all supposed to be working together. When we say that everyone is helping me, it means that everything is my responsibility, right, and whoever is doing the helping is going above and beyond. And I think that's such common messaging that our kids see and that we perpetuate. Because how, like, how often, honestly, have you said, Can you help me do this? Oh, yeah, daily. And that, like, it's a very subtle messaging, but it says, like, this is my job, but I need you to come help me do it. And that is something that I've really tried to shift with my kids. I

Casey O'Roarty 38:41
am so excited for my conversation with my family later today, after this is so useful and and we talk about contributions. I don't typically talk about chores. We don't use the term chores. When they were little, we talked a lot about family, work, making contributions. So I love that we're on the same page with that. I think that's really powerful. And I love that modeling. I mean, it doesn't really matter what we're talking about when it comes to parenting, and, you know, raising kids, modeling is at the top of the list. And it's one of those things that, you know, listeners, I know, it feels like, okay, yeah, yeah, I know about the modeling, but what am I supposed to do? And the answer is, you're supposed to model, make it a part of who you are, show your kids you know the work that you and your partner are doing. And I just, I really appreciate you sharing that. Yes, and I and thank you again for that conversation around the idea of the equal distribution of emotional labor. And I don't I also don't want to demonize anyone who feels like, you know what, I am large and in charge in my house. And that's exactly who I want to be, great, awesome. I think we can check in with our. And when we can do that in a very honest way, you know, our inner world gives us lots of indicators of whether or not we are in balance with and aligned with what we want in our life. And if you can check in there and feel solid, you know, great. And if you check in and you don't, then, let's, you know, do some exploring around that and be willing to make those connections, build that relationship, have those conversations and invite people in to your experience. Yeah,

Gemma Hartley 40:35
yeah. I think you know, there are definitely women who really sort of enjoy having their hand on everything, and if that's you, that is okay. I think the one thing that I would warn against is not letting anyone else into that, because I think there is a lot of benefit for our partners when they get to be an active participant in their lives, and not just have their lives micromanaged for them. I think we have a really bad history of holding men at arm's length from parenting, from fully participating in a relationship and in domestic you know, work, and I think there are benefits to that. It's not just like, oh, I need to get this burden away from me. It's I need to invite you into this part of my life. Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 41:28
and I that, thank you for that. Reframe too. I think there's a lot of messaging too. I notice in my experience messaging after, you know, 25 years, 1517, year old. I mean, if I'm real honest with myself, I've trained them pretty well to show up exactly how they're showing up, and so, you know, starting to really recognize the messaging, the subtle messaging, right, that we're giving to which I think sometimes can be like, I don't think you're capable. So I'll just do it, or, you know, I'll, yeah, there's lots of different messages that we send and being aware. And I think your work is really steeped in that. And what you said earlier, that idea of paying attention to the people around you, paying attention to what they need, noticing, you know that noticing doesn't mean that I'm going to stop noticing but having some more noticers in the space would be fabulous. Exactly.

Gemma Hartley 42:27
Yeah, it's not that we're going to let go of this work, but everyone's going to be doing it. And feeling like you're not alone in that is really life changing. I remember I wrote a follow up piece to my original Harper's article about how it was as my husband started to make these shifts, and what it felt like to, like, open a drawer and have a pair of like, my underwear is folded in this drawer, and I did not do that, or like, ask for that, And it wasn't so much the physical task, but feeling like, oh, like he sees what I'm doing, and in doing that participation and doing that, noticing I feel so much less alone.

Casey O'Roarty 43:13
So good and listeners, I'll make sure there are links to both of those articles, as well as how to get your book in the show notes, but I would love for you. My last question that I always ask to my guests is, what does joyful courage mean to you in the context of all of this Gemma?

Gemma Hartley 43:32
I think for me, it means doing the scary and vulnerable work that's going to lead to a life with more joy.

Casey O'Roarty 43:43
Oh, I like that. I like that. Thank you. Where can people follow you and find more of your goodness?

Gemma Hartley 43:51
Um, I have my website is Gemma hartley.com uh, but mostly like updates about me and what I'm doing is going to be on my instagram at Gemma l Hartley, or on Facebook at Gemma Hartley.

Casey O'Roarty 44:07
Okay, great. And again, listeners, you know you can find those links in the show notes. Thank you so much for spending time with me today and talking about all of this. I'm sure I'm going to have follow up questions, so be ready for the emails. But this was really, really great, and I think it's a very important conversation to be having. So thank you for being willing to come on and spend time with me.

Gemma Hartley 44:26
Yeah, and thank you so much for having this important conversation.

Casey O'Roarty 44:38
Thank you again for listening, my friend, if you feel inspired and you haven't already, please do me a favor and head over to Apple podcast and leave a review. We are working hard to stand out and make a massive impact on families around the globe. Your review helps the joyful courage podcast to be seen by ever. For more parents. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Also don't forget you can follow joyful underscore courage on Instagram and Facebook. We love to connect with you on social media. You can join us in the live in love with joyful courage group and or the joyful courage for parents of teens group on Facebook and again, don't forget to sign up for the upcoming Brave New World Summit now. Joyful courage.com/b. N, w, love, yeah.

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