Eps 221: Sarah Rosensweet talks Peaceful Parenting and letting go during the teen years

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Casey O'Roarty 0:00
Go, Hello and welcome. Welcome to the joyful courage podcast, a place where we tease apart what it means to be a conscious parent and aren't afraid of getting super messy with it. I'm your host, Casey awardee, positive discipline trainer, parent coach, and in the trenches of the parenting journey with my own two teenagers, each week, I come at you with a solo show or an interview. You can be sure that the guests on the podcast have something important to say, and I am honored to have you listen in as I pick their brains about what it is that they are passionate about. If you are a parent looking to grow while walking the path of parenting. If you're open to learning new things, if your relationship with yourself and your kids is something you are interested in diving deeper into, then this is the place for you. After you listen, I would love to hear from you. Head over to iTunes and leave a five star review, letting others know what you love about the show, or feel free to shoot me an email at Casey, at joyful courage.com, I love hearing from listeners, and am always quick to respond if you want to be sure not to miss any of the happenings going on with joyful courage. Join my list. You'll stay updated on the podcast and events that are happening for parents, both online and live, you can join the list at WWW dot joyful courage.com/join. Yay. So glad you're here. Enjoy the show. My guest today is Sarah Rosen. Sweet. Sarah is a certified peaceful parent, coach and educator and the parenting advice columnist for Canada's Globe and Mail newspaper. She lives in Toronto with her husband and three big kids, ages 1215, and 18. Peaceful parenting is a non punitive connection based approach that uses firm limits with lots of empathy, Sarah works one on one, virtually with parents all over the world to help them be the parents they want to be and enjoy their kids again. I am so excited to welcome Sarah back to the podcast.

Sarah Rosensweet 2:14
I'm so excited to be here you were on

Casey O'Roarty 2:16
the show way back in 2017 Episode 114 where we spoke about the new sibling transition, a much loved episode. By the way, you should know people really like that episode. Thank you. And today, it's all about the teenagers, right? So before we go there, can you remind the listeners about how you found yourself doing what you do with parents, and if anything has changed as you've navigated the teen years with your own kids, hmm. So

Sarah Rosensweet 2:45
I started my business as a parenting coach about six years ago, and it was sort of like, I have to admit, a little bit out of desperation, of not knowing what else to do, because the jobs that I did before I had kids were really not very family friendly in terms of hours. And I'd been a stay at home mom for 12 years, and my husband was like, Why do you start your own business? Like, doing what? And so I thought, What do I love? I love parenting. I love all things parents. And I was always the the like, you know, the type a stay at home mom who, kind of, like, had to keep my type a brain active. So I was really interested in different like parenting philosophies and theories and parenting books. And so I was always the mom that everyone was like, What should I do about this? You know, what? Give me something to read? What do I do when they do blah, blah, blah. And like, Oh, I could maybe, maybe I could do that professionally. And I, I look back and my teenage son actually said to me, he's like, Mom, I have to admit, I thought that was a really stupid idea when you first started your business, that I didn't think it was going to work out. But like, you know, I have a really, a great full time practice at this point, and so, you know, it did work out. And I'm so happy that I get to support parents. And in terms of, has anything changed since I've navigated the teen years? I think I'm glad that I've had the practice on, you know, helping parents be more compassionate with themselves, because I think that's a big lesson in having teenagers, is to, like, just really bring the compassion for the kids and bring the compassion for yourself when you fall down or things don't go quite how you want. And so I think I've, you know, I've learned a lot through coaching that I've been able to use myself with as the parent of teenagers, yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 4:29
and I, I'm really and you and I connected over holding space for parents of teenagers, because we both kind of felt like there was a gap in the support, right? Like you can find people talking about the early years and school age kids, but as far as teenagers, I mean, now I've now that I've dove in. I do find those voices, but it felt when I really was finding myself kind of bumping up against, oh my gosh. What? Is going on, and I looked for conversations, I couldn't find the conversations that I wanted. And as I've created conversations, I find myself really cautious, especially with parent educators on the podcast that work with families who have kids of all ages, as you and I both do, because I feel like there can be a mistaken idea that if you do everything right in the beginning, somehow you can avoid having a challenging time through the teen years. And I love what you're talking about compassion, because, I mean, yeah, what are your thoughts around that? Well, it's

Sarah Rosensweet 5:36
funny, because yesterday, I was speaking to a group of moms who had babies, like, just, you know, maybe then one other older child, but mostly babies. And somebody asked me that, like, do you think that, you know, parenting like this makes it is, like, a guarantee against, you know, having trouble down the road? And I said, Absolutely not. Like, there's no guarantees. And there's a lot of nature, there's a lot of nurture. There are things that our kids are going to walk on their own that we can't, you know, we can. We can try and be there and hold their hands, but, you know, it's not. There are no guarantees in life. And I think that, you know, I, I know a little bit about your story, and I and I think, well, if you hadn't been raising the kids how you have been, things could be a heck of a lot worse, you know. So I think we do the best we can, but there are no guarantees, and the teen years are hard. Like, no matter what kind of parent you are, how you you know, how you raise them, they're, they're not for the faint of heart. Well, I feel

Casey O'Roarty 6:35
like it's one of those things too, right, where you don't know till you know, you know? I mean, having younger kids and hearing from parents with older kids, like, oh, just wait for the teen years. And I remember thinking, like, that's probably not going to be that hard for me. I've got a lot of training and, you know, and then, oh my gosh,

Sarah Rosensweet 6:52
what is the universe to teach you? Casey,

Casey O'Roarty 6:54
I know the universe, yeah, is like, I'm on a crash course right now with the universe. Um, but I did, you know, I did reach out to you, and something that you mentioned was a book called The self driven child by Ned Johnson, and William sticks red, and we spoke off when I wasn't recording. We think that's how we pronounce his last name, William sticks red, and I bought it, and it's so good. And I would love for you to share a little bit with the listeners about what that book's about and why you are moved to share it with other parents. What was it about that book that really spoke to you?

Sarah Rosensweet 7:31
Just in a nutshell, that book is about, I think there are two big ideas in the book. One is that, as the authors say, there can be only one driver of the train that is your child's life, and it has to be your child like, you know, people might say they want a self driven child, but then they go in and try and control every decision that their child makes, or, you know what they eat for lunch and where they go after school or whatever, you know what classes they take, and they're really like, if you if you do want your child to turn into an adult who is self driven, that child needs practice, right? So there really can be only one driver of the train. And the other big idea, I think, is that we need to manage our own parental anxiety. And, you know, obviously there's more in the book than those two things, but those are the two things that really stood out to me. I think one of them says something like, we need to, we need to adjust the idea that our child might know something about themselves, right, that they that they know themselves and what they need and what they want. Um, so I think I I'll just share a little story of something that happened the week after I read the book, and I was so aware that my reaction was completely different than it would have been if I had never read the book. And what happened was, this was last year, my middle son was 14 and in ninth grade, and he asked me that he texted me and asked me to look for something in his room that he had forgotten. And so I went in his room and I saw his report card, and he hadn't been like, hiding it or anything. I just hadn't seen it yet. So I looked at it and he it was midterm report card. He was getting a 52 in math. And no one in our family has ever gotten a failing mark in anything like it was just a shock. And he's, you know, he's a very competent student, so there wasn't really any reason for him to be getting a 52 in math. And so I texted them, like, first, my first reaction was, he's going to be coming home every day after school, and we're going to be on top of this. And like, you know, that control, control, control, like, that was my first, you know, kind of, my first instinct was, we've got to get on top of this, you know, he can't get an F in math. And then I thought about the self driven child, and I was like, hold on a second. What they talk about in the book is that your child has to want to do well in school. They have to want to study. They want to have to want to do their homework. Like we can't make them want those things, and we can't make them do those things. And even if we could, it's not a good idea. So instead, I just text him, and I was glad that it. I wasn't right there with him, because I got to kind of consciously craft my my response. And I texted him, Hey, I just found your report card. He texted me back, that face that's like the big, wide eyes and the straight across mouth, yeah. And I said, you know what's going on, or something. And he said, I need to start doing my homework and math. And I said, Okay. And I said, Do you need any support? And he said, No, I already decided that I'm going to bring my grades up and that I just need to start doing my work. And he did. And I, you know, he wouldn't. He's my most strong willed kid, and if I had come down on him with a you have to come home every day after school and do your homework and show it to us. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, he would have really never gotten to that place where he wanted to do better, and he took it on himself to do better. So it really affected me, and even, you know, he's also this kid that he's my he's my most challenging kid, and he's on the he's on the basketball team in his high school and but his first love is baseball, and he's he tried out for the basketball team, and he made the basketball team, but then he kind of was sorry, because it's added a lot on his plate, because he has baseball three times a week. And he told me yesterday, this was just yesterday, I want to quit the basketball team. And I was like thinking to myself, you know, you don't quit something that you started. Don't

Casey O'Roarty 11:22
be a quitter Exactly. Be a quitter Exactly.

Sarah Rosensweet 11:25
And, and I, you know, I questioned him a little bit, but then I said, okay, like, you know, and before I read this book, I would have made him stay on the basketball team. I still think it's a mistake. I think it's a mistake to quit. I think it makes him look bad. I think he should stick out his commitments, but it's not my decision.

Casey O'Roarty 11:43
Oh, man.

Okay, so a couple things that you said that I want to highlight, and I love that story. I think that story is completely relatable. Parental anxiety, you know. And just like what you said about that basketball decision, like, you don't want him to look bad, you don't want to, you know, we have this like, like, X ray vision into all the things that could go wrong if they make a particular decision, right? We have this lens of, wait a minute, this is disrupting a narrative, and you don't actually know how you're gonna feel. I mean, that's kind of some of the things that come up in my mind that I know I've heard from clients, you know, around like, Well, what happens when you figure out that you've made the wrong decision? And, you know, we have all of these limited yet intense thoughts from a place of love, because we care about them. And, you know, when I read this book and transparent, I'm going to be transparent. I didn't make it all the way through, but I read about halfway through and I loved it. There's no reason that I didn't make it all the way through, other than I tend to read and then put it down and then on to the next but I love the idea and to think about, you know, we care so much that they don't have to, right, like, especially when it comes to school and grades and things, when we are holding all of the caring and all of the responsibility, then they don't have to hold that and letting go of that and allowing our kids to Feel the weight of that one it makes it's useful, it's a good thing, and it's just really interesting to it requires us to really trust them, yeah, right, and to trust them like that,

Sarah Rosensweet 13:34
even if it messes things up for them, they'll be able to figure it out.

Casey O'Roarty 13:38
They'll be able to figure it out. They'll be able to figure it out like every moment feels so monumental, and yet every moment is such a small snapshot of a big, huge tapestry that is in the process of being made, right so and it's crazy. And like you said, you know, most of us know in our heads that the teen years are all about getting out of the way, and letting our kids make decisions, learn from mistakes, letting them drive their own train, and yet, it's actually really difficult to give up the driver's seat. Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. I mean, it wouldn't be so hard if they were doing all the things we think they should be doing,

Sarah Rosensweet 14:17
right? I just said to somebody this morning, I said, you know, if, if everyone in my life would just let me run their lives, they'd be somewhat happier.

Casey O'Roarty 14:24
Oh my gosh, you and me, both sister, I know it's like, I see the big picture. Just do what I say, yeah. And yet we both, we, you know, and yet, all parents, I think, like we have conversations around how much there is to learn from failure and mistakes or opportunities to learn. But we hold our space and our boundaries so tight that it really makes it so that they're not having an opportunity to learn from mistakes because we're swooping in to fix them.

Sarah Rosensweet 14:51
So talk a little bit about Well, I think we're afraid of them feeling suffering and hurt and. Um, you know, making mistakes. Like, I don't know, maybe like, my son will decide in a month that it was a horrible, horrible decision to quit the basketball team. I mean, I think he probably won't, but, you know, maybe he'll decide it was a horrible decision, and, you know, be really sorry, and then I'll feel bad for letting him quit. But I don't know. I think we just, we love our kids so much that we don't want them to be unhappy. But out of that unhappiness comes recovery, right? Like, you know, if you, if you think about, I forget whose blog post it was, but they talk about, you know, if you can picture feelings are like a tunnel and the train is like, you getting going through the feelings to the other side, like through the through this dark tunnel, and when you get to the other side and you realize, like, I made it, you know, I made it through that difficult time and those, even if it's a difficult feeling that lasts for an hour or whatever, and you're really upset, and then you're okay again. That's resilience, right? So if we block our kids from experiencing the suffering we're also blocking them from developing the resilience that comes from surviving difficult things.

Casey O'Roarty 16:08
Yeah, and I feel like we forget too, that we make decisions based on our experience, right? So having an experience like quitting the basketball team and then perhaps later, feeling like that was a mistake. I wish I wouldn't done that, and then later on in life, having that same similar experience of, do I want to stick with this? Do I want to let it go? Oh, yeah, I had that experience one time with basketball, and now I'm remembering how that made me feel, and that's going to support me in this current decision. I think that giving, you know, I think parents, myself included, we forget that they, you know, even though our teenagers, they are, they're big and they look like adults, and it's so weird, you know, we forget that they still are working with such a limited bank of experiences, right? And such a limited bank of decisions and mistakes and learning experiences, and so, you know, to let them, to open the door and really step back, and, you know, one of the tools in positive discipline that we talk a lot about is curiosity, and, you know, being able to like you did, I know, and it's so nice when it's a texting conversation, because there's such a nice buffer of space to really think about, you know, I mean, there's also an opportunity to shoot out a text without thinking, but there is this spaciousness that allows us to think like, Hmm, how could I respond here In a way that's going to be the most useful to my child, right? Because it is a dance. It's a dance between listening, looking. You know, we talked about the iceberg metaphor, looking under the surface, getting really curious about Well, tell me. Tell me more about that, that possibility. Tell me more about how you're feeling with basketball. Tell me about how you're feeling with, you know, in school, in that particular class, with that particular teacher, and listening. And then one of the things that I've been trying to train myself to do is to ask if they want my feedback before I offer it to them, because it's a dance, right? It's a dance,

Sarah Rosensweet 18:21
yeah. And train yourself to say, do you want? Do you want to hear what I think? And sometimes they say yes, and sometimes they say no, and then when they

Casey O'Roarty 18:32
say no, it turns out to give them Yeah.

Sarah Rosensweet 18:34
But you know, I was thinking when you were talking about that, when they're making that, letting them make decisions. One of the lines that I pulled from the book of the self driven child was, if you want your child to be good at making decisions, then you have to let them make decisions. Yes, because that's how they learn poor decisions or good decisions. If they never have any practice at make decisions, they'll be terrible at making decisions.

Casey O'Roarty 18:58
Oh, man, yes, yes, all of that is true. And I can totally hear my clients and myself talking about, yeah, but aren't we supposed to be the parent? Yeah?

Sarah Rosensweet 19:08
And you know, they do, they do address that in the, in the in the book. And it's funny, because I was going for a dog walk with a girlfriend of mine who has kids around the same age, and I was telling her about the book, and she said, Well, my parents were really, she, she said, My parents didn't even ask me about my schoolwork. And I really felt like they just didn't even really care. And I really, you know, I want to be involved in my child's life, and you know, just what's going on with them. And I said, Well, you're sort of, you're not really talking about, you're talking about neglect, you know, like you're talking about uninvolvement, and I think we have to recognize that we can be involved. And, you know, ask them if they want help making a decision, or, like what I said to my son, like, Do you need some support? Like, thinking maybe he needs a tutor, you know, so it's not that we're it's not that we're uninvolved and we're not being the parents. And. Just saying, like, Hey kids, see ya, here's some money. Sink or swim. But we're really, you know, we're that safety net, you know, we, we're not going to say you can stay out all night and never go to school and all the stuff, but, but we're also not trying to control their every move.

Casey O'Roarty 20:16
And I think that's, that's the shift, right? Like, that's in the work that you and I do, Sarah with you know, peaceful parenting, and I use positive discipline, and it's just a very different lens around that conversation around, well, we have to parent our child. Yes, we get to be in relationship with our kids. It's never a question of whether or not we're in relationship with our kids. I think that sometimes and perhaps, well, I don't know if this is where your friend was coming from, but if the lens is that parenting means we make them do things, then I think that is where the disconnect shows up, right? You know, and anyone who's listening with younger kids spoiler, they get to an age and you really can't make them do anything, you know, like they tow the eyes.

Sarah Rosensweet 21:07
They know that, you know, they can't make them do anything,

Casey O'Roarty 21:15
yeah, yeah. And that's like, you know, if, if your style is around, is control, then that's a big learning curve as you move into the teen years, recognizing that this is not about controlling your teen. This is about sharing power. This is about being in relationship. This is about curiosity and really, really letting go well, and

Sarah Rosensweet 21:41
I think, I really think there's a lot of that for the younger years too, and and if we're lucky enough to have sort of been aware of control issues when our kids are little, then we're going to be more practiced at it when they're older, right? Like I, I just had one of my columns. It'll probably be, you know, from by the time this podcast goes out, it won't be yesterday's column, but yesterday's column. Someone asked my seven year old refuses to wear his snow pants and it's cold. What do I do? And I was like, Don't make him wear his snow pants. Like that was the short answer. And of course, I went into strong willed kids and blah, blah, blah, but I you should see the comments Casey on that column from in the newspaper, like people are like up in arms about the idea that we're not, that we shouldn't try and control kids. And I think that. So I think it's a paradigm shift in general. No matter how old your how old your child is, it's this paradigm shift of respectful parenting. And it doesn't mean that the child is in charge, but it means that we we show up with that parental in chargeness when we need to, not just because we can or we think our idea is better.

Casey O'Roarty 22:54
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Sarah Rosensweet 27:23
first of all, in our house, it's the bathroom door, because my boys share a room, so it's the bathroom door that would be the closed door. But you know, I think start with connection. And first, you know, I also just want to say, if somebody who's listening to this is in crisis, get some family counseling support. You know, I think with little kids when, you know, when I have clients who have little kids, I often say, you know, you're the best person who can support your child. But sometimes family systems become so entrenched by the teen years that if you're feeling like you're in crisis with your teenagers, then maybe getting some, you know, a family therapist might be helpful. So just a little caveat there. But I think starting with connection. Do you know the book, staying connected to your teenager by Michael rora, oh my gosh. So that's put that on your list. It's really good. But he says that when you're a teen, when you have a teenager, you can expect to have one out of every five rejections you or one out of every five invitations you give to be accepted, and four out of five times you'll be rejected in terms of, like, doing something together, or, you know, whatever. And he says, the answer is, increase your invitations so. So just really not taking it personally that this is that, you know, it's, it's natural for kids to be wanting to carve their own identity, find their own self and space away from us as parents. And we do still, though, want to make sure that we have that open door and and that we like them. You know that they have to feel like we like them. So what can you focus on that's positive about your teenager when you're having a hard time? What can you what can you find to like? I don't know if that makes sense, but in terms of the the iron fist thing, you know, the more you try and crack down, the more they're going to try and prove to you that you can't control them. So you're going to get into this real bad situation where you're going to get, you know, sneaking and lying and, you know, not sharing anything if, if they feel like they have to do that to be able to have any measure of freedom.

Casey O'Roarty 29:39
Yeah, yeah, that's, that's an interesting cycle, right? We where the, you know, there's so much control and tight fistedness happening from the parent and the teens are doing the teen thing, individuating and exploring the world, but the relationship isn't there for them to come to. The parent and have conversation about it. So they lie and get sneaky, and then they get caught, and then it's a big How could, how dare you, you know punishments, consequences, and with the with the assumption that, well, if I pick the right consequence or punishment, this kid's gonna know, I mean business,

Sarah Rosensweet 30:19
yeah, and all you do is hurt your relationship and right.

Casey O'Roarty 30:22
And all they're thinking is, I gotta get better, like I all I thought as a teenager was I gotta get better. It's getting in and out of that window so they don't know it was never like and I never thought about what, what it must have been like for my parents to realize I was gone, never.

Sarah Rosensweet 30:41
Yeah, well, and I think you bring up a good point too, in terms of like, limits for teenagers, you know, maybe we have to adjust what? Maybe we have to let them have a little bit more freedom than we're comfortable with, and it's partly because they need to feel like we're not control. I have a client who she came to talk to me about her 16 year old daughter. She said her daughter was consistently about 15 minutes late for curfew every night. And then I said, that's really interesting, because, you know, 15 minutes is not that late. It's almost as if she's just showing you that you can't be the boss of her, right?

So maybe you guys need to have a conversation about what's reasonable. Maybe your maybe your curfew is unreasonable. Maybe she feels like you don't trust her. Maybe you know. So I think opening up those lines of communication about what's reasonable, what their expectations are, what your expectations are. Has your teenager given you any reason not to trust them? Well, if not, then you should trust them.

Casey O'Roarty 31:52
Yeah, and it's messy. I mean, I just know. I know well, and I'm going to share another part of of the story, of my story. So it's your call. That's the language that the authors of the self driven child use. It's their call. So we're going to talk about what it feels like when your child's call isn't necessarily what you'd want for them, right? And this is it feels very extreme and super vulnerable to share, considering what I do. But my example is my freshly turned 17 year old daughter, who I've talked about a lot on the podcast, and she's given me permission to share this story. She should be a junior in high school this year, and she is completely dropped out of school, like she's dropped out of school, she doesn't go to school, she's withdrawn from school. Now there's layers here. There's mental health that's playing a big part in what's going on. And yes, I have been invited into the deepest levels of patience and compassion and acceptance than I ever thought possible. I think she's like you with basketball. I feel like she's making a gigantic mistake, and ultimately I can't force her to go. I do give my opinion. I ask for permission to share what I think. I encourage her I look at like the baby celebrations that we have. We have a team that she's working with around her anxiety and depression, and it's her call. Like I'm living this. You know, some days do I feel like I've completely given up totally on good days, I recognize this is a snapshot, like I said earlier, of a much bigger movie that is her life. And what is most important to me is that she feels seen and heard and loved, but and

Sarah Rosensweet 33:50
that you still are supporting her, and you still have a relationship with her, and you're not, because in the old days, don't you think, or I mean, maybe even with people today, if their kid dropped out of school, they'd be kicked out of the house.

Casey O'Roarty 34:01
Yeah, if I could kick her out of the house, and thought that she had the life skills to pull it off. But at this point, she's talking a lot about her big move out, and I'm like, Girl, if you have it together enough to move out of this house and make a life for yourself, I will throw you a huge party like that. Would be a total win, but I never saw this coming, you know, like I never saw this coming for my child, who was, you know, thriving at school. Used to come home, play school after school, you know. And she just hate High School, yeah, it was really, you know, starting her freshman year, freshman year was like a rogue wave, and she she attended school all of her freshman year, but was extremely unhappy. And you can go back into my podcast and track it probably with the things that I was talking about. And then last year, did online school, and then we had a big move this summer, and she was all excited. To do a program out here that we call running start, that's finishing high school at the community college, and just the social like the social anxiety, the anxiety it just like the classroom space, like she just hit a wall and has since spiraled and so, you know, here we are and Resistance is futile. Like I've asked again, I've asked my daughter if I could share about this, because I think it is so important to share our personal stories, to get permission, and then to share our personal stories, because I feel like I did all of the things I'm the fucking parent educator. How is this what's happening? And, you know, a lot of the time I feel, I feel okay, you know, I feel like there's so, you know, I know she chose me. I know, cosmically, our spirit said we're going to do this together, and it's going to be rocky, and we're both going to learn and like, again, the universe, my daughter is teaching me so much about myself, about my own biases, about the narrative that I didn't even realize that I had. And yet, it's your call. Feels really risky, yeah.

Sarah Rosensweet 36:14
Well, I just want to say that. I mean, you might see it, you know, negative that, oh, I'm a parent educator. This shouldn't be happening to me, but I think thank goodness you're a parent educator, and you have all of this experience and all of these tools, and you can, you know, really like, show up for your daughter, whatever that looks like.

Casey O'Roarty 36:31
Thank you. And I've told her, and I've said that, I think I've said this on the show before. I've told her straight up, like, you know what? You make me a better parent coach, because I can work with parents who are having a really hard time with their kids, and I can say, yeah, I get it, and I can list off a million other things that she could be struggling with that would be terrifying, that I'm really grateful aren't on our plate. So

Sarah Rosensweet 36:54
I just have kind of a hopeful anecdote for you that girlfriend of mine, her son is the same age as my oldest son, which is last year. My son graduated from high school in 2019 and her son stopped going to school in the beginning of grade 10, or, you know, sophomore year for you guys. And because of his crippling anxiety had sort of been building since middle school, and he spent, like, I don't know, to like, she tried to find him online courses and a tutor and like, all the stuff to finish high school. And finally, I think she kind of just gave up, not in like, a mean way or anything, but like, same, you know, it's your call. Like, if you're not gonna leave the house and you're not gonna go to high school, I can't make you. And he started. He got a job last year as, like, a fledgling stagehand. His dad's in the business and the stagehand business, and he's doing amazing. He's like, working part time. He started, like, going out with his friends again. And he just hated high school. He hated school. It made him so anxious, and he had some bad experiences with some teachers. And you know, he's doing really well now. And I think he still has some anxiety, but he's making a life for himself, even though he didn't finish high school. That

Casey O'Roarty 38:13
is really helpful. And, you know, it's interesting too. Again, it's, you know, my and I think all of us parents, especially when not especially because I think that it happens throughout the journey. We start to recognize, if we're aware, if we're willing to be conscious of this, we start to recognize all the conditioning that we went through as children, you know, with parents. And it's so interesting to notice when fear and parental anxiety show up, how connected and rooted it is to our own conditioning. Like in my family, growing up, education was number one. Like, basically anyone who didn't go to college was a loser. Like, how could you possibly right? You know. And so now I'm sitting in this like, not only is college right now not yet in the future, but we're not even what right now. No, back

Sarah Rosensweet 39:13
to the book, which is one of their beautiful things, is the choices are not Harvard or McDonald's, right? One of the things those guys say in the book, and I think that's really important to remember that that we get in this stuck idea in our head of what a good life looks like. But there are so many ways to have a good life, like a productive and rewarding life, and some of them don't involve higher education.

Casey O'Roarty 39:39
Well, you know what's interesting, Sarah is, I think that it's and I've had nothing but amazing support from friends and colleagues who I've shared with and well, now I'm sharing with the whole world, but, and I imagine getting great emails from all of you, so feel free to send them my way make me feel better. And I know that if I was having a conversation. With someone who was going through this, I know exactly what how I would support. And it's so interesting to be the one inside of it, right, to be the one that's living it and living through it. And you know, it's not for the faint of heart, and I get to lean on and I think this is an opportunity for all of us, like there is so much growth and opportunity inside of a situation that looks like, you know, we want to pull our hair out like, you know, your share about the basketball, my share with Rowan, other things that show up where we're like, what are you thinking during the teen years? Like, just remembering that there is like, we're always growing. We're always growing. Every single challenge is an opportunity to say, like, Huh? Have something to look back on. Have something to tease apart. I say that to myself, and I say that to everyone else, right? And I do appreciate that, because we do go to those extremes, like, you're either going to be a bum on the street or you'll be a neurosurgeon. You decide, yeah, exactly. What do you think is the number one thing that teens need from their parents

Sarah Rosensweet 41:14
love? I really do that sounds so cheesy, but like love and connection. Actually, my older son once said to me, he said, You and dad are always thinking that you know what's best for me. And he said, what I really need you guys to do is just love me.

Casey O'Roarty 41:30
Yeah, those are powerful words, yeah.

Sarah Rosensweet 41:33
That's some pretty old soul things. Sometimes is my oldest son. He's more my sensitive guy, but you know, I think just like, love them and accept them and recognize they're doing the best they can, and find things that you like about them and smile at them and, um, you know, delight in them. Um, really, like, let it reflect. Like, let them see themselves in your eyes, reflected back in a positive light, instead of, like, you know, what did you do wrong this time? Or what bad decision are you making this time? Or, you know, like, just really, like, in trying to enjoy them and like them,

Casey O'Roarty 42:09
try to enjoy them and like them, yes, because there are people we made them Yeah. And I read somewhere that, you know, the teen years are so challenging, so that when they're ready to leave, we're ready to let them go,

Sarah Rosensweet 42:24
sort of like when you when you are, like, at the end of a, end of a visit with somebody, you kind of like, get in a fight with them. So it's not so hard to

Casey O'Roarty 42:31
say goodbye, do you so as your oldest son moved out, no, he's

Sarah Rosensweet 42:35
on a gap year. Well, in Canada, we have that, like, UK name for it, the gap year, which I think is great, and he is currently applying to some different university and college programs. So I'm not sure where he's going to end up end up next year, but hopefully he'll be able to afford to move out because he desperately wants to. And, you know, he might even move cities, but we don't know right now, but I'm actually enjoying having him around, although it cramps my work at home style a little bit, because I'll hear things like he'll come up to my office and say, Do we have any food? Yes, look in the refrigerator. But what he really means, are you gonna make something that I can also have? But yeah, he we've sort of given over. He's like our eccentric roommate, is what my husband and I call him. So he started to do the group family grocery shopping. He drives his brother to baseball practice, and so I think he feels like grateful that we're supporting him this year, and so he's trying to help out, which I really appreciate, and I'll be super sad to see him go, but I also really want him to go, because I don't think it's, I don't think it's good for him to to stick around, um, longer than that,

Casey O'Roarty 43:48
that gap year. Yeah, well, and I recently told my daughter, you know, as much as I'd love for her to be in school, that I'm we have really special time together right now, you know, like it's not, she's not holed up in her room, you know, she's around, and we're connecting, and we're having deep conversations. And you know, it's for us, it's more of this mental health stuff that we get to, that she's navigating. And I also, one night, I tried to say to her, I said, you know, so I don't feel like I really was conscious of my humanness until I had kids, you know, up until I had kids, it was more of like automatic pilot, working it out, doing what I do, you know, but then having kids and really like recognizing and understanding what personal growth meant and personal development. And I said to her, I said, But you know, because of you, the anxiety that you're experiencing, you are being forced to recognize your human experience and to be conscious of the ways that your human experience is showing up. And you. You know, you you might find that looking back on this, that it's a huge gift. And of course, she looked at me, because she is a teenager, and rolled her eyes and just said, yeah, no, this is not a gift. I would be worried

Sarah Rosensweet 45:11
about her. She didn't roll her eyes.

Casey O'Roarty 45:15
But I do you know, I mean, I just don't know. Like you talked about your oldest being an old soul. I definitely feel like my daughter. I mean, she could, she could ultimately develop into like an energy healer or something, because she's very intuitive and she's and that's probably why high school and those close quarters classrooms experiences so much. I think it's like her energy field. Oh gosh,

Sarah Rosensweet 45:39
on all of that, yeah, all of that difficult energy that's going on at that age. That would be really hard if you're like, an early empathic person, yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 45:47
yeah. And I think she is, so she'll figure out what you were just saying.

Sarah Rosensweet 45:51
Made me think of, you know, I really think that whenever kids push our buttons, and they're always, you know, what bothers you might not bother me, and what bothers me might not bother you, and it's always some sort of indicator of some healing or some work that we need to do on ourselves whenever our kids push our buttons. And what I've realized is that there's sort of two kinds of parents. They're the kind of parents that are going to pick up that invitation and say, like, I want to investigate this deeper. Why is this, you know, thing defiance or ignoring or whatever the thing is that pushes our buttons? Why is this so difficult for me, and I'm going to do the work that I need to do, and then they're the kind of parents that say it's just my kid is, you know, a terrible person, and it's their fault, their fault and their problem. And I'm not saying those are bad people or bad parents, but there are a lot of people who a lot of parents, who are afraid to pick up that invitation because it's, you know, it's some hard work. Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 46:49
it really is, but it's so worth it, and it really shows up in how we can be in relationship with our kids. Sarah, I need you to be my parent coach. Anytime, anytime. So I have one last question. In the context of raising teenagers, what does joyful courage mean to you?

Sarah Rosensweet 47:14
I think it means trust. You know, trust in the the I've always likened raising teenagers is like closing your eyes and just taking a big step into this dark off the edge of a cliff, because there are no guarantees, but it's just trusting that, Oh, my God, this is gonna sound so cheesy, but that, you know, the universe has got us, you know, and that The joy, that's the courage part, and then the joyful part is just what what I said before about liking them and and delighting in them while you're trusting this just dive off of a cliff into the dark.

Casey O'Roarty 47:55
Oh, I love that that can be a both and instead of an either or so. Thank you for that. You're welcome. Where can listeners find you and follow your work? Sure.

Sarah Rosensweet 48:06
So my website is Sarah rosensweet.com just like it sounds Sarah with an H and I've got a couple different Facebook groups. I've got an all ages peaceful parenting with Sarah rosensweet, and I also have a peaceful parenting with teenagers free Facebook group. So if you want, you know, want to find other like minded parents who are on this journey and have the same kind of thoughts and challenges that we have. Any of those places would be a great place to hook up with me. This is lovely. Thank

Casey O'Roarty 48:37
you so much for coming on.

Sarah Rosensweet 48:39
You're so welcome. It's a pleasure as always. Now I can say as always, because it's been twice I

Casey O'Roarty 48:43
know well, I'll see you again.

Sarah Rosensweet 48:46
I hope so.

Casey O'Roarty 48:50
Thank you so much for listening. It is my great honor to create this show for all of you. Big thanks to my producer, Chris Mann at pod shaper, for his work in making the podcast sound oh so good. If you're interested in continuing these powerful conversations that start on the podcast, become a patron by heading to www.patreon.com/joyful courage. That's www, dot, P, A, T, R, E, O n.com/joyful, courage for $5 a month, you will have access to a private Facebook group where I do weekly Facebook lives on Mondays and interview recaps on Fridays. Plus it's a great way to give back to the show that gives you so much. Be sure to subscribe to the show, head to Apple podcast, Spotify, iHeartRadio, Google Play, wherever you are listening to podcasts, and simply search for the joyful courage podcast and hit that subscribe button. Join our communities on Facebook, the live and love with joyful courage group and the joyful courage of parents of teens groups are both. Safe, supportive communities of like minded parents walking the path with you. If you're looking for even bigger, deeper support, please consider checking out my coaching offer. Www dot joyful courage.com/coaching, is where to go to book a free explore. Call with me and we can see if we're a good fit. I'll be back next week. Can't wait until then. Big Love to you. Remember to find your breath, ride it into your body, take the balcony seat and trust that everything is going to be okay

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