Eps 244: Connie Feutz Teaches Us How To Be Mindful With Our Partners

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Transcription

Casey O'Roarty 0:04
Hey listeners, welcome to joyful courage, a conscious parenting podcast, a place where we work hard to break down what it means to live our best lives inside of the shadows and the light of the parenting journey. I'm your host, Casey o'rourdy, positive discipline trainer, parent coach, and imperfectly walking beside you on the path of raising my own two teenagers. This show is about how messy it can be to be in relationship with our kids. It's also about how messy it can be to be human. This particular episode is really exciting to me, because I have a guest on that's going to break down the relationship we have or want to be having with our partners. Yep, my guest is a couple's therapist and brilliant and a joy to talk to listen up, because there is a ton in this conversation that you can take and put into action today. Enjoy the show.

Hello, listeners. I am really excited to welcome this week's guest to the show, Connie voitz. Connie is a clinician with over 35 years of clinical experience who specializes in working with couples, one of the six original master clinicians invited into the Gottman Institute in 2000

John Gottman has called Connie an extraordinarily gifted couples counselor to whom he would send his own family. After leading the two day Art and Science of Love workshops in Chicago for years, Connie created her own one day workshop for couples called the mindful couples workshop, which she led for years here in Bellingham, Washington and Victoria, British Columbia. She has expanded that course into a five week online course for couples called a mindful love course, a couples workshop you can do from the comfort of your own home. Connie feels blessed and honored in her work alongside couples a resident of the Northwest for 35 years. She lives in the gorgeous Bellingham, Washington with her family, as do I and you all may remember, way back last spring, I talked about going to Connie's workshop with my husband. And you can after you listen to this, check out episode 224, where I reflect pretty candidly on our experience with Connie. I am so happy to dig deeper into the work she does here on the podcast. Hi Connie. Welcome to the show. Hello

Connie Fuetz 2:54
Casey, and thank you so much. I'm thrilled, thrilled to be here. Yay.

Casey O'Roarty 2:58
Can you share a little bit about your journey of doing what you do.

Connie Fuetz 3:04
Well, I can tell you that I'm one of those fortunate creatures that I I've known from the age of 12 what I was meant to do in this lifetime. And I mean, even at age 12, I was attending classes on Freud way back when, and so this has always been the direction for my life, and once I got involved in counseling, obviously starting a lot in volunteers, doing groups. Volunteering in groups, I really became enthralled with working with couples and families. And so my graduate work was in family and couple relationship and but that was in the 80s, when what we were trained in was so off course, it's really rather embarrassing what we were trained how truly I mean, actually, one of my very first encounters with John Gottman was he was at a lecture speaking at UW and he said, if you look at the efficacy of couples counseling, which I never did, I never looked At research, you will find that couples who go to counseling are more likely to get divorced than if they didn't. And so it was John's work that really turned things around, and that, of course, happened for me in 1999 and year 2000 so my journey, I love the energy generated in my office with two people, I believe we are more of ourselves in a therapy office. If our spouse is there, there's nothing we can hide. They're there to catch us, to talk to us, and whereas an individual therapy, we can be a good client to a therapist. So there's nothing wrong with that. We can benefit from that, but the depth we can go when our beloved is in the room looking at us and confronting us and challenging us is profound. I love the work that I do.

Casey O'Roarty 4:48
I have never thought about how things shift with your partner in the room. I've done both. I love therapy. My people know I talk about it all the time. We should all be going to therapy. And I, and I have had, I had a short session, you know, my husband and I did about six weeks with a therapist a couple of years ago.

And, yeah, it never because I'm and I also want to be a good student. So I definitely recognize that there's a little part of me that wants my therapist to like me and to be proud of me and, yeah, getting called out by your spouse. The other thing I noticed too, when I started, when Ben and I did couples therapy, and even when we went to your workshop, which was so useful and perfect timing, was sometimes I go into it thinking, Oh, good, now Ben's gonna get it, get it together, right? The reality, yeah, not sure he feel, you know, I know he felt the same way, especially before we went, you know, it was like, Oh, great. Another place where Casey can tell me what I'm doing wrong. But the reality is, in my experience was No, no, no. This is a dance between two people who are equally responsible for what those steps look like. Yeah. And that was really, I think I know for Ben, it felt really like, like he was able to, like, sigh and settle into it, because it wasn't just focused on him, but it was really more focused on as much as I tried really hard at times to make it but our therapist was a great therapist, and she, you know, navigated our conversations really well. But yeah, I love, I love thinking about how real we just have to be when our partners in the room.

Connie Fuetz 6:42
And if, while we're on this topic, I want to toss this in that as good as individual therapists are, they can't know what your partner is experiencing. And so if your relationship is in distress and you go to an individual counselor, their job is to join with you and your point of view, and in that it could create the false idea that that's the only point of you, and it's not. I mean, I can't tell you off. And I've had a couple referred to me by really fabulous clinicians, and they've not met the spouse, but they'll say, oh, Connie, I can't you have a really rough road with this person, usually the man in the group, right? He's awful. And they walk into my office, and that's not the case at all. Yeah, in and so individual therapy can actually exacerbate a distressed marriage, not intentionally, but just by the nature that you're joining with one person's point of view and not Yeah. Anyway, just a little tidbit that I Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 7:41
yep, well, and we had when we first started seeing a marriage counselor, it was right as our oldest daughter was going into high school and things were tough, man. I mean, my listeners know, because I'm pretty transparent with the journey, but there's a reason that I have niched into supporting parents of teenagers because it is a tough, tough era on the parenting journey, and one of the things that our therapist said was the best thing we could do for our teens is to focus on our relationship with each other. Absolutely

Connie Fuetz 8:17
so true. So true, because if the two of you are anchored and grounded and at each other's backs the teenager, the teen will feel that, and they feel that sense of you know what? I can go through my crazy emotions, but it's not going to rock my household. It's not going to rock my parents. They're wounded. No, that's absolutely true, as hard as it is when our kids are teens, especially if parenting is a perpetual issue, and we've talked about that in the workshop, right, that all couples have perpetual issues. Not all couples will have parenting as a perpetual issue, but if you do to be grounded and solid is even more challenging. But you build muscle that way. You build positive muscle that way. Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 8:59
yeah. Talk a little bit about who has influenced you in your work. You talked about early on that, you know, what you were taught was,

Connie Fuetz 9:10
oh, gosh,

Casey O'Roarty 9:11
not so great. So how have you evolved? Who have been the big teachers for you and your work of working with couples? Well,

Connie Fuetz 9:19
absolutely, John Gottman, and to realize, I mean, he was nominated when the most influential psychologists of the last century for really good reason prior to him, what I learned in graduate school was theory, someone's theory, and it may have worked for them, or maybe a few couples in their office, but not overall. And so John's, you know, 40 plus years of research, which started in 1974 over 3000 couples in three different metropolitan areas, couples not in therapy, couples off the streets. And so being invited into that institute was a profound privilege, and the 12 of us that they initially invited then out of that. 12, they invited six of us to be their master clinicians. But out of the 12, we were meeting every Friday for like two to four hours in the academic school year, with John and Julie developing the Gottman method for five years. And so there was a lot of incredibly deep learning. And then, of course, the creation of The Art and Science of Love workshop, which, like I said, I was the first person to lead it off the west coast, those that two day workshop, that one in Seattle, though John and Julie no longer lead it, unfortunately, although I'm happy for them that they don't, but

Casey O'Roarty 10:33
and so for all of us. So John

Connie Fuetz 10:37
turned my whole field upside down, but then sue Johnson's research came in, and fortunately, she and John were really tight colleagues at that time, and she was flying from Ottawa to LA for some kind of a workshop or something, and she agreed to stop in Seattle, and she gave the 12 of us this private training on EFT, emotion focused therapy. And it's just all of us looked at each other, and I think 10 out of the 12 of us went for further training with Sue and emotion Focused Therapy clinicians, those two modalities together. I feel like what I can do now. Well, prior to John, I had a colleague say this, I'm stealing her a great metaphor. Prior to John, we were in a surgery room with our couples with the lights out, and we had knives in our hands, and we were just trying the best we could to cut out the cancer. And oh my gosh, John came in and gave us lights and a table and much clearer tools, and then Sue's work on top, we can do laser surgery. That's what I feel like I get to do in my office now, with couples in distress, is laser surgery. It's quick, it's effective. So those two and then, like, you know, because my workshop is based on the theories and the ideas of five great masters of relationship, of course, John gum and Sue Johnson, also Harville, Hendricks, Marshall Rosenberg, who created a non violent communication, and Thich Nhat Hanh and so I distilled down what they're all saying, because at some point in my career, I realized they're All promoting the same thing, just in different language. So I distilled that down and that of like, you know, as a part of the the mindful love workshop, yes,

Casey O'Roarty 12:27
yes, yeah. And I love that. You know what drew me? I remember seeing the flyer in the waiting room of my therapist's office last winter and seeing that it was here locally, seeing the word mindful really caught my eye. Can you talk a little bit about mindfulness and how you teach it to couples and why it's like, why it's so important in inner intimate relationships to you? Oh

Connie Fuetz 12:57
my gosh, it is crucial for me, in loving, connective relationships, so with our children, with our spouses, with anyone we love. So my definition, I really draw a lot from Jon Kabat Zinn, who's the creator of mindfulness based stress reduction, which is a fabulous form of learning mindfulness meditation, if anyone's interested. And his definition is basically being attentive, being aware, without judgment, being present. And then I add Sue Johnson, accessible, responsive and engaged. Because when you look at what you know, many brilliant people are saying about harmonious, resilient relationship, it's choosing to be present, being attentive, mirroring and validating, empathizing, deep listening and etc, etc, and all these, one are elements of mindfulness, but they also are supercharged when we're mindful. There was a couple that I had seen years ago, I was like six years, I think, and they called to come in. This is also right before covid. And on an unexpected by me was the wife was looking to divorce. It was that bad, that bad. And I was really quite surprised. And the husband was just flailing trying to think of what to do and trying to save this. He, you know, he was really geared up to do whatever we could. You know, the only thing I really Oh, I know, because we hadn't scheduled enough time, like only an hour and a half, where I would have loved to have a half a day with them, or a whole day with them. We hadn't scheduled much time. So I tossed in there the touchstone, which we'll talk about later. It's just a tool. It's a tool that I find extremely helpful. It's also taught in my mindful of course, but I also taught the husband that the precepts of mindfulness. Now, when they came back in, it was like two weeks later, and when I saw them on my calendar, I sort of went, Oh no, because I was so worried they were going to separate in my office. And I liked them so much. She's like, Oh heck, I hope not. And they walk in, she is smiling broadly. They sit close on my sofa, and she says it is so different. And I asked them, What is so different? And yes, he racked it up to the touchstone, but I said, Oh no, no, no, it's that he was completely accessible and present and available to her in a way that she had not been feeling for years. They were raising teenagers, and it was a difficult time, and it was just it turned everything around now they can claim it was. So what I want to say is, any communication skill that you learn, I don't care if it's from me or anyone else, you apply mindfulness, taking the time and energy to be present and aware and engaged and responsive, and it supercharges the skill that the they not skill. What would it be called, the process? I guess

Casey O'Roarty 15:55
I love that, and I'm with you, and you know, I love that with that, there is a choosing in right? I talk

about this just in parent when we put it in the context of the parenting relationship, like we and I'm encouraging you, listeners, like listening, taking in this content, but then being in action really means choosing in and if you haven't been choosing into mindfulness and and being actively present and engaged, then you're gonna bump up against your status quo. You're gonna bump up against how you have been. So can you talk a little bit about how you support people just in that like, Oh yeah, I'm gonna try something different. Like I want. When we want different results, we have to show up differently. So what are some tools that you support couples with that help them in, that choosing in, in those moments where maybe those old patterns are just really worn in. Does that make sense? It

Connie Fuetz 17:02
does. It does. What I do is I map out a structure, a structure for how they walk through time differently in a way that is choosing in when they have the energy, always giving people the choice or the permission to say, I can't right now, meaning when we choose in so when people come into my office and say, I want we need to learn communication skills, almost all of them say we need to learn communication skills. Effective communication. 80% of it is listening, well, listening where I'm not trying to persuade my partner of my point of view. I am listening to what matters to them, even if I don't agree. And I think that's a piece of it is teaching people, you don't have to agree to listen deeply, to nod and go, Oh, that makes sense. Is not agreeing necessarily, but you're caring about what they're saying, and so I map out for them, and I actually for my couples because, like, you know, I only do marathon couples therapy or intensive telehealth. I do not do the hourly session. I stopped that 15 years ago, I find,

Casey O'Roarty 18:14
which is fascinating, by the way, you know

Connie Fuetz 18:16
what happened was probably 20 years ago, I read us about a psychiatrist in Paris who would not schedule his clients. You had to come and sit in his waiting room. And one session might be 15 minutes, another might be two hours. And you just signed on a piece of paper, and we waited, and I thought, you know, it's so true, some people just need 15 minutes and some people need two hours. So it was really in the Gottman Institute when we were all out here in Seattle. And actually the Gottman Institute was a closet back then we were all out here, and when John and Julie were doing all other promoting on television, all these different whatever programs people wanted, Gottman therapists. And so we had asked them to fly out and we did marathon couples therapy, starting in 2000 and back then, the Institute only allowed three of us to do it, John myself, and Andy greendorfer, but once I started doing that marathon, which was back then, it was three days. Now I can do it in two days. Same thing. I want to switch the trajectory couples are on. But what it does is it allows us to dive in deeply, and people can't run, and whatever their issues are, it's going to come up. And I don't have my receptionist buzz me to say someone's down here waiting. Connie, you have to wrap it up. I'm not watching a clock any longer. We have 10 minutes. We can't get into that. We only have 10 minutes. No, we go deep, and I love it. And then what? So the where I'm going with that is I only do that. I mean, if someone work with me, that's all I do, because it's what I believe is most effective. I write a summary at the end so they don't have to take notes, and I write a summary for the couple that includes their goals. They came with goals, and a little bit of an overview of what we covered, every concept that I taught and every. Skill that I teach. And then there's usually a little paragraphs to each of them that would be, you know, try this on. This as a smorgasbord, see what fits, what doesn't, in terms of each of them individually. So they have it all. So I tell them, there's a map, there is a map, and I will put it in black and white for you, so you don't have to learn all these things in one or two days. You can reference this. Yes, there's follow ups if we need them and and whatnot. But it's changing, well, tooth changing how people walk through time. And because I see couples in high distress, I mean, typically it's people that have seen four or five other clinicians end up in my office, often like that person where they've at least talked about divorce, if not began the process. It's often what I want to see. It's essentially two things plus others that are specific to each couple, one teaching them to not engage when flooded, which we talked about lock in the blood on the workshop. And I really emphasize that we know when you engage when flooded. This is a John Gottman concept. You erode connection, you erode emotional safety and so not engaging when flooding, really emphasizing that, and then naming their negative interactive cycle and teaching them what to replace that with. So that's naming

Casey O'Roarty 21:12
their negative interactive cycle

Connie Fuetz 21:17
and teaching them what to replace that with. And then, so is that like? I'm

Casey O'Roarty 21:20
gonna just pause you for a second, so first, not engaging when flooding? Yeah, so I'm gonna put that in joyful courage podcast speak, because my people have heard me talk about brain in the palm of the hand Dan Siegel's work and the lid flipping. And it's, like, totally aligned with that Gottman language around flooding. And we talk about it with our kids, you guys like we are always talking about how when you got a flipped lid, you got to get it together before any kind of problem solving can happen. So I love this is only one of many places where your work. Connie got me so excited that day we were together because there was so much alignment with what I do, which is teach positive discipline, so not engaging when flooding and then naming the negative interacting cycle, yes. Okay, so is that like? And I like to think about the negative interactive cycle as the dance, right? Yes. Okay, so

talk a little bit about that.

Connie Fuetz 22:18
Well, when a couple's in high distress. You know, there is a negative, interactive cycle. Some couples call it the vortex that just sweeps them away right on the rabbit hole. We're going down the rabbit hole. And so naming that in a calm way helps each person see, oh, that's my step. Oh, that's my step. And if I'm going to disengage, I need to stop my steps from that. And so naming what those are, and then what I do is I teach process that I have always had the couples practice in front of me, practice, practice, practice. So bringing any topic they wish to process or let go of or clear. We're going to do that right here in my office. You're going to via this new, different, more effective form of interacting, which the primary one I teach, because it alone. If no one's going to learn anything else, if they just learn this, it's enough. And then there are others. Is the loving speech, deep listening, which you also learned

Casey O'Roarty 23:15
in my book. Yeah, yeah. We talk a little bit about that. The loving speech, deep listening,

Connie Fuetz 23:19
or it's basically what it is is, again, over the years, trained with the people I was trained with, I realized they're like I said. They're all saying the same thing, but in slightly different language. And when I recognized that, and then looked again at what they were saying, each one again, going back to those five masters, they are promoting a conversation, a healing conversation. I call it a recovery conversation, but each one promotes a conversation, and you can take bits and pieces from each and there's overlap in all of them. Loving speech, deep listening comes from Thich, nhat, Hanh. I like that name so much better than speaker listener, which sounds more mechanical to me, and so loving speech, deep listening is that, and it's well, first of all, what's in, what's also the important piece. And I'm giving a lot of terms now that are in the workshop, it's hard to but you know two equally valid subjective realities. How critical that is when we have a new interactive cycle is following two equally valid subjective realities and honoring both in our process, even if they're very, very different.

Casey O'Roarty 24:32
Oh my gosh, okay, two equally valid subjective realities. I think that takes you know, for some of us not going to call anyone out, but

you know me, I have been known to say out loud, I clearly, I am obviously the person in the room who sees everything really clear.

No. Oh, yeah. And so to be willing to name that my own subjective reality like, take some humility, right? I think it takes some humility. It takes some some vulnerability, to be able to, you know, and I'm I'm thinking about the people that are listening right now, and I see you, and I see you thinking to yourselves, wow, equally valid, like the

Connie Fuetz 25:28
downward that's like, oh, man, if

Casey O'Roarty 25:31
that's true, what does that mean about how we treat our partners and how we listen to our partners? You know, like it changes everything to put on that lens.

Connie Fuetz 25:43
Yes, it does. It changes everything, and in the rest of our lives, we don't need that. Neither should it be there. In education or the judicial system or the accounting system, on all those systems, there's a hierarchy. There's one person who makes the decision or not that that's not a place to honor two weekly valid subjective realities. We do that with people with whom we want emotional closeness and safety we want and to create, which is our children and our spouses and our beloved ones and our families. We want them to feel safe enough to say anything to us. Now we're not talking about verbal abuse. That's a different thing, but to say anything to us and to feel safe and to know, all right, I don't. I may not agree with that at all, but I honor that that's your experience. I honor that that's your thoughts. And so I teach people in honoring two weekly balance objective realities in deep listening, loving speech, deep listening, we are nodding, we are looking them in the eye and saying, that makes sense to me. That doesn't mean we agree. It doesn't mean we agree. We may not, but I honor that's and we can always honor someone's feelings, even if the situation happened that I don't think happened, like you said, we all believe our truth. We believe our truth, and that's not my truth, what you experience. But I may not be able to validate the circumstances that you're describing, but I can validate that you felt sad or lonely or scared. I can always validate the feelings and then my partner or my child, my beloved, they know I'm at their back. I care about you. I care about these feelings that you're carrying, even if I don't agree on the circumstance I care about you, and it's when we feel that person at our back, we feel safer to be vulnerable, which is the depth of connection is about allowing ourselves to be vulnerable, so honoring two equally balanced Subject realities, if we don't learn it in our homes, we don't learn it. That's the only place we can learn it. I mean, you can learn a therapy office, but I don't want people to learn a therapy office. Yeah, I want them to learn it in their homes and teach their children this. Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 27:55
I've been in a DBT program with my oldest, and it's been fantastic. And I've really even as a parent educator, even as someone who has a lot of information, I have grown so much in my practice of showing up for her. And one of the really powerful things has been validation and recognizing that, you know, even though my intention, I have this loving intention, some of the things that I have said with that intention in mind have been the opposite of validating for her. And so what I'm hearing you talk about is one of the big pillars of positive discipline is making sure that the message of love gets through, like, yeah, with, you know, and that's what I'm really hearing, is the through line with what you're talking about. And I'm just really appreciating that. And I'm thinking about

couples right now, you know, we're how many? I mean, how many months are we into this pandemic? Six maybe. I'm wondering, what if any, if you've seen any shifts in your practice and the people that you're seeing, other than you're probably seeing them virtually, what have been some big challenges with clients during the pandemic, pattern wise, like, what are you seeing?

Connie Fuetz 29:20
And I'll toss in here that I do have a free PDF title, coping with covid as a couple. It's not actually you have to email me or my assistant. There's not a web page for it, but it's on my website. And you can email me at [email protected] or my assistant, [email protected], so there's a free PDF. It's like seven pages of

Casey O'Roarty 29:43
ideas. I'll make sure the link to your email is in the show notes, but Okay, go on. And

Connie Fuetz 29:49
so it's been surprising to me. And first of all, I actually am seeing clients in my office. Oh, but, and also, I have a huge office. US, it's 350 square feet, and we can sit seven feet apart, and there's an airport fire and the windows open and we wear masks. But I was surprised, frankly, of course, when covid hit, it was such an upheaval for all of us. We turned our lives inside out, upside down. But what so people who've lost a family member, or people who have lost a job are in a particular category that is extremely difficult, people with resources, who can be home without worrying about mortgages and food on the table. It's been an incredible silver lining. I hear that over and over and over again, working from home, it's the issue has been being on top of each other and more time. But what it's also done is it's it's forced some things to come forward, both positive and maybe unsettling, but they're now addressing that unsettling. But I've had fathers who've worked a lot, it's like three or four come my office and say, I never knew the lilacs bloomed in my backyard until the spring. I never noticed the birds out here in my backyard, and they're walking every day with their wife somewhere, like these rituals of connection that they never had because they were at their jobs seven hours a week. So the struggle is when one person again going back to two equally valid subjective realities, going back to perpetual issues, which has if. And there are these relationships where one person is just more relayed back, more laissez faire, and the other person is just more cautious. And when you have to decide, how are we walking through time with our children, with our friends, with our neighbors. And one person's going, Oh, it's no big deal. We're outside. We're six feet apart. Let's have a party. The other person is going, not at my house, no. And they want a list of protocols that everyone follows before they walk in the door and etc, etc. So that's been a challenge again, dealing with perpetual issues in a different way for a different reason. The covid is life threatening for people, and so it's a very highly charged perpetual issue, but that's been probably the biggest one, and then this unexpected silver lining for people,

Casey O'Roarty 32:18
yeah, yeah. It's really interesting to be inside of both of those things personally with my family, because, you know, we have a suppressed immunity here, about to be, like insanely suppressed in a couple of weeks and two kids, one of which is really social and wants to be out in the world, although is very easy going. I'm super grateful about, you know, the rules that we have in place for right now. And you know, the togetherness that we're experiencing has been profound, and the connection on our community has been, or in our family has been really profound. And we actually had, I'm just going to tell this little side story. So we were having a conversation the other night, and it was, I don't know what we were doing, but we kind of were talking about, like, what, like, some what ifs. And I said something like, Well, the good news is, like, Dad's really good at, like, outdoor survival, so, you know, we'll be a tight little unit through time, and my 17 year old looked at me and said, um, I do not want to spend the rest of my life with this family.

Connie Fuetz 33:30
Oh, that's great.

Casey O'Roarty 33:32
And it was so funny, just like it was so real. And the look on her face like all of a sudden dawning on her, like the possibility of this dystopian future where her main circle is family of origin.

Connie Fuetz 33:48
That is wonderful. That was pretty

Casey O'Roarty 33:49
fun. It was pretty funny. But, you know, I also have friends who have been through, you know, some like they're finding that their relationships are dissolving outside of this time. Wow, yeah, it's

Connie Fuetz 34:05
Oh, that's crazy.

Casey O'Roarty 34:07
Yeah, yeah. So one of the things that you talk about that came up in your workshop was setting this context of the spirit of intention. And I would love for you, I talk a lot about intention with my clients and my listeners, I would love for you to tease apart what it is to you and how that mindset can work for couples. Can be useful for couples.

Connie Fuetz 34:33
I love the Language of Spirit, of intention, and I think for many of us when we think of our intentions and our dreams, it's really often around parenting or work, and that we often don't take that same lightheartedness and intention towards our relationship, that there's a lot of taking our relationships for granted. Mm. Yeah, and so to actually, and often, we don't notice our relationships until they're falling apart or struggling, which is, well, it's human. It's human. And so, you know, in every area of our life where we wish to grow or enhance something, if it's parenting, if it's exercise, if it's meditation, if it's playing piano, everything takes dedicated time and attention, and this is true for our love relationships. So that I love that idea of spirit, of intention, and I think it's behind what I do in this teaching of how to walk through time differently, it's making it's really about dedicating time, not that much, but little spots of dedicated time to the relationship, just to keep it flowing and keep it alive. And so I think the spirit of intention is something that we would need to talk about, but then to implement, to implement, and how do we keep our relationship alive? Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 36:05
I mean, that's the big question.

Yeah. And I know in parenting, you know, one of the things we talk about are regular family meetings. I know, you know, in my family full transparency, we ebb and flow with that. When we are really committed to the practice of weekly family meetings, things are so smooth and things feel so good. And I notice when there's a little extra tension or just feelings of resistance, if I can remember to think to myself, when was the last time we had a family meeting? Chances are it's been a few weeks or a few months, and it's like, oh, yeah, right, we know what to practice to come back together. And I feel like the same practice is true in our relationships as well. And looking at well, when was the last time, you know, we talk about one on one time with our kids. That's a big positive for parenting, you know, tool, an under the surface nurturing relationship tool, and remembering, like, oh, right, there's this other person in the family who I am in relationship with. And under the surface of that, when we put a little and this is what I'm hearing you say, with that spirit of intention, if we put a little bit of time and effort and practice special time with our partners, it's amazing. Yeah, what happens in the surface of our relationship?

Connie Fuetz 37:33
Oh, it is. And so in the workshop you attended, because we only had one day we did, I think, seven exercises over the day. And in the resources, in the back, I talked about a process I developed called the touchstone meeting, which was, oh yeah, I've done it for 25 years. And in the what I so I actually love this five week course, even better than I love that one day course, well, one day workshop, which I have always loved. But the in the five week course, it's, you know, a couple downloads a lecture. They can watch it anytime they wish. And every week there's two to three exercises. And in those five weeks, I give every exercise I know, there are 14 exercises in this course, but what I do, Casey, is I the first week, I teach them the touchstone, because I want them to do it all five weeks. And in the touchstone, it's never longer than an hour. You alternate leadership, but there's three components, and those components, one is clearing, which I teach my couples. You hold all complaints for the touchstone. You do not offer complaints during the week to your partner. You write them down and offer them. There's a particular way you clear it. You let it go at the touchstone. And you also, before you do the clearing, you actually, if this is a positive thing, you sit down and you talk about what's worked well between us this this week, and you name all that's worked well with students this week. And then there's logistics, because I'm wanting my couples so too often, what would happen is people would come in. There's a lot of negativity, but they're also, after many, many years, they've become a business relationship. Yeah, they're being parents and they're running households, and there may be running businesses, and I want them to switch back to that love or romantic relationship. So what I tell them is, hold all logistics for the touchstone. I mean, occasionally something's urgent, we have to talk about it that day. But that's not often the case. And I'm wanting, if you only have 20 minutes a day, or half an hour a day with your beloved man, I'm wanting to be close, connected, speaking love languages. How are you? Who are you? What have you been dreaming lately? I'm wanting it to be that kind of a connective tissue the rest of the week. So the touchstone has a clearing logistics and then growing our relationship. And for me, that can be used in many ways, but I think of it as keeping our fingers on the pulse of, huh, how are we? Where are you? What do we need? Right? And it can be. So it can be used in a variety of ways, but it's very much like you're saying that. And my couples that use it love it, but it's the same thing. Usually, over the summer, it kind of falls to the wayside, and then when kids are back in school, we go, oh, this really helped us run our family. Let's do it again. And the other thing it can do, which is one of my soap boxes, I want our children to learn how to I want them to learn how to process conflict in an effective way. And the only way they do that is by witnessing us processing conflict in an effective way. You do that at the touchstone you're at the kitchen table. The kids are off doing anything else. They get it via osmosis, because if we don't learn it in our homes, I mean, maybe we'll learn it once we leave, but I so. So it's that Touchstone offers that you we do, loving speech, listening to Touchstone we do, clearing in a respectful way. Also, the touchstone means we're not flooded when we're sitting down across from each other over the kitchen table. You know, we know what we're there for, and we're present. We're engaged. So anyway, like you're talking about the family meeting, which is so also important, this is one of the tools I give, and that's one of the reasons I love this five week, course, so much is people could do it from the very beginning to the end.

Casey O'Roarty 41:20
Yeah, yeah, I love it. Brilliant. So you mentioned something at the top about the mischief of persuasion. Those are my words. But how you know when we are communicating from a place of wanting to persuade the other person that that just, you know, is not useful. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Connie Fuetz 41:46
Oh, I'd be happy to, because, you know, persuasion is a tool. It's a great tool out in the business world or in education. I'm not against persuasion, but when it's a relationship where we want to feel emotionally safe if it's a topic that doesn't matter, like, what are we going to eat for lunch? Sure you can try and persuade me that's not a big deal. I could care less. But most of the time, like John Gottman, in his 40 years of research, saw that when couples talked about an area of continuing disagreement, they talked about exactly the same issue in exactly the same way, 69% of the time, and that's how we figured out perpetual issues. So most of the time, when we're wrestling with our beloved it's about a perpetual issue. And when it's a perpetual issue, it's not about the house cleaning or the parenting or the sex, it's about what's underneath it, what it means to me, the principle it carries for me. So if I so, we feel strongly about it, which is why we fight about it. We feel strongly about it. And if you're trying to convince me of your point of view, let's say it's house cleaning. Can we say it's parenting,

Casey O'Roarty 42:55
just because it comes up so hardcore in my community?

Connie Fuetz 43:00
Absolutely, absolutely. So let's say we have a 17 year old. We have to figure out a curfew, right? And we have to come up with a conclusion about a curfew. We have to be on the same page. And let's say I'm of the mindset, and it's a daughter, and I'm on the mindset that says I want her, I want her to be out in the world to figure out what's out there. I want her if she's going to have a horrible experience. I want it to be when she can come home, not when she goes to college. I don't want to protect her so much that when she goes to college or wherever she goes when she leaves home, that she's not used to struggles. Or how do I handle myself when someone wants to drink and drive? And how do I handle myself when people are approaching me to do drugs? What I want? I want to give her freedom, and I want to give her choice, because I want her to learn, and my spouse is going, you're out of your mind. She is my beloved daughter. No, her curfew is 10 o'clock, and if she's not there, I'm going out and I'm going to find her and I'm going to bring her back, and I'm one of her free let's say to me midnight. So we have very different purposes about that, or dreams about that. But then, if he tries to persuade me that I'm a not, I'm an unsafe mother, or that I'm not thinking of my daughter, I'm only thinking of what I would need. Right the persuasion, when we use persuasion, essentially, what we're saying is, my way is the better way. My way is the right way. And we go back to if persuasion is used a lot in a relationship, and sometimes in relationship, there's a more dominant person. Maybe they're more verbally acute, and they can speak faster and and you have more words, the other person gets passive. They give up. Doesn't mean they don't have their point of view, but they stop talking, and which

Casey O'Roarty 44:46
is infuriating for the person.

Connie Fuetz 44:49
Also, what can happen in some relationships is that person has gone passive, goes subterranean. They begin to use so for instance, in this metaphor, let's say on. The one who doesn't talk as much, and my husband wins, and I feel persuaded. I don't feel heard, I'm feeling dismissed, and he's out of town, and I let my daughter stay out to midnight, right? Passive aggressive stuff, because I think it's fine. That's what happens in those relationships, and it undercuts everything. Undercuts what our daughter's learning about curfews. It's undercutting my relationship with my husband and so persuasion in the things that matter does not work because you're you're insinuating you're communicating that my point of view is the better one. Instead, what works is loving speech deep listening back and forth until I hear everything you need me to hear about why this is important to you, and while I may not agree on the outcome, I can understand that what you're wanting is our daughter's safety, and what you're wanting is my daughter's integrity and and you don't you think the world is filled with rapists, and I think the world is filled with crazy people that she needs to get used to, and then they hear me, or he hears me, and he's at my back. So when this whole thing of loving speech, deep, listening to equally violent, subjective realities, the ideal is with practice. I really feel he's at my back. He understands what I'm wanting. I feel he's at my back. And when we do the compromise, which we have to come up with, one I'm advocating for his and he's advocating for mine, we really feel like a team. He's going, well, you know, you know, I went 10, but I hear you, and I hear how important to you, what about 11? And then we can compromise. Is at 10 o'clock when she's doing this with friends, is it 11 or 12 that and but we feel where each other's backs, and in that case, when I feel heard and cared about, I'm gonna be I'm gonna be behind that 10 o'clock curfew that we've agreed upon with my daughter. I'm gonna support that because I know he is supporting me what matters to me and likewise, and that's so different than when persuasion is used and I don't feel hurt. I feel like I don't matter. I feel like what I'm wanting for my daughter isn't being appreciated. And then we go like, I say many people go passive, aggressive and subterranean with that.

Casey O'Roarty 47:04
So if you could leave anybody who's listening, who is feeling disconnected from their partner with one action step to take today, what would it be?

Connie Fuetz 47:15
So I'm gonna have to make it two. Okay, you can, and one of them is what you would do if your partner's willing. And one is that you can do by yourself, because sometimes partners aren't willing, and I get that, that's not a problem. And so the one with your partner, if there's one action step I'd have you do, is Google, Five Love Languages by Gary Chapman, take the test. It's irritating. It's 10 minutes, but it's completely valid. Five different love languages. Once you do that, I really recommend you go to my website, go to my blog. There's one on Love Languages, because I offer you an outline for how to use them and an exercise to do together based on the numbers. The numbers really matter. And what they do on their websites, they just show you the top love language. Sometimes there's three at the top if you have the same number, and so it really matters. And then you have a conversation about, okay, if mine is service, there's lots of ways of being of service. And I want my partner to really ring my bell when he's speaking my love language, and I can say, No, it's not mowing the lawn, it's not vacuuming, but boy, if you could make dinner three nights a week and do the dishwasher, oh my gosh, I'm over the top. And likewise, right? And to love languages, because not always, sometimes at the same but I can't tell you how often in my office, like I do, see couples in distress. And actually, just this week, a turning point from them was learning how different their love languages were, and they could look over their history of 27 years, how each of them were advocating and arguing for their love language, and the other person's going, eh. Why is that important? Because it's not theirs. Yes. And so love languages, if your partner is game, if they are not, what you can do individually is some point during the day, every morning, every night, I want you to write down three things that you are grateful for about your partner, especially long term relationships. We just take them for granted. And so to say, What am I grateful for? Because life can turn on a dime, like Casey, you know, so well. We all know what is it I appreciate about them, and name do this like 10 days in a row, and then communicate it. Communicate in writing, verbally. You know, I realize I'm the luckiest person in the world because of how well you take care of me. Or, you know, I think you're the sexiest man I've ever seen. All these things that we think to ourselves, but we often don't verbalize or express that, and remembering that, the masters of marriage and John gottman's research create a culture of kindness, appreciation and gentleness, and they do this by honoring two weekly balance of directory. Realities by not engaging when flooded. But appreciation is huge and kindness is huge, and so do what you can to cultivate increased appreciation gratitude and kindness for the people in your household, and let them know.

Casey O'Roarty 50:18
I am so excited to start that practice tonight. Thank you so much for that. In the context of all we have discussed today, what does joyful courage mean to you? Connie,

Connie Fuetz 50:33
I love that phrase. I just love it, that concept, those words, and to me, I'd have to say, because we're talking about relationship, it means grounding myself in the courage to look at myself, at my triggers, at my missteps, but to look at myself with joy rather than with judgment, you know, to but to Yeah, the courage to look at me and the parts of myself that are blooming, and the parts of myself that might be dark, but to do so joyfully and lovingly.

Casey O'Roarty 51:14
I love that. So tell the listeners where they can find this amazing five part course that you've got online. What's the link?

Connie Fuetz 51:24
So if you Google a mindful love course, it will come up if you wish to look at my website that is attached to that website is in W, like Northwest, in W, marriage counseling.com, and that tells you about me and my work and the mindful, of course, is there, and I'll be doing it six times a year.

Casey O'Roarty 51:44
So is it alive, like you take a cohort through it. Is that how you do it, or is it an on demand? I On

Connie Fuetz 51:51
Demand? I think it's both. I'm not sure. The way it works.

Casey O'Roarty 51:55
Welcome to the online world. Connie.

Connie Fuetz 51:59
I'm still learning this new language. So the way it works is, there's six courses a year. I'm in the middle of one right now, and the people who sign up, Oh, it's over five weeks. The first week you receive every week, for five weeks, you receive a download. It's of a lecture that I'm giving, course materials and then suggested exercises over the week that you do at your own timing with your sweetheart the following Saturday, from 930 to 1030 Pacific Time, there's a live Q and A and I can answer any questions. Oh my gosh, the interaction has been so fascinating. I just love meeting with these people and hearing about their stories and what they're needing. There's also a Facebook page that I'm on most days and can answer if there's questions during the week. So it is five weeks, and like I said, we start with the touchstone, and it's 14 exercises now. Two are optional. Three are done during the lectures, and they're like less than five minutes. So it's really eight that you have to do on your own, but it's everything I have in my toolkit. I mean, it's everything, all the concepts, all the tools that you have access to forever, as long as there's an internet. Because once you sign up that you have access to those materials and those lectures, however long you wish, yeah, to return to.

Casey O'Roarty 53:20
So great listeners. Those links will be in the show notes, so you can find out when Connie has another group getting ready to start to go through. I'm so excited. I got to be there with the filming, right? Yeah, yes. I don't think we were on the filming, but I know there was filming happening. That was filming,

Connie Fuetz 53:39
and that's not going anywhere, so you're not anywhere there. But also, the next course is October 10, and that's the last 2020. Is October 10.

Casey O'Roarty 53:47
Okay, great, great. So we'll so hopefully this goes out before then, if not, then listeners, you can look forward to 2021 for a variety of reasons, including some really powerful support from Connie. Thank you so much for coming on and being in conversation with me. This has been great.

Connie Fuetz 54:06
Oh, Casey. I've loved it. I've loved every moment of it. Thank you for making this happen and for supporting all the parents out there.

Casey O'Roarty 54:19
Thank you so much for listening, I am so incredibly grateful for the joyful courage community and the way that you show up for each other, and for me, there are so many ways to stay connected beyond this podcast, you can follow joyful courage on Facebook and Instagram. You can join one of the Facebook discussion groups either live in love with joyful courage or joyful courage for parents of teens. Also remember, if you want to take it up a notch, you can join the Patreon community, where you can catch live streams of the solo shows we do, monthly group calls and so much more. Check that out at patreon.com/joyful courage to. A, T, R, E, O n.com/joyful, courage. Big thanks to my team for all the ways they support me with my work. My editor, Chris Mann from pod shaper, my coo Tay, who does more behind the scenes than you can ever imagine. My sweet daughter, Rowan, who's learning the ropes and supporting the publishing of the podcast, I will be back next week. Until then, my friends, find your breath, release the tension in your body, move to the balcony seat and trust that everything's going to be okay.

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