Eps 246: Bellamy Shoffner On Being a Single Mom and A Revolutionary Human

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Transcription

Casey O'Roarty 0:03
Kay, Hello, friends. Welcome to joyful courage, a place where we tease apart what it means to be a conscious parent and a conscious human on this wild ride of life. I am your host. Casey o'rourdy, positive discipline trainer, parent, coach and Mama walking the path right next to you as I imperfectly raise my own two teenagers. Today's show lands a week before the election here in the United States. And while the conversation I'm going to be sharing today isn't necessarily focused on politics, there is a lot of social justice conversations, as well as talk about race and opinions about the president weaved into the discussion. We don't live in a vacuum, and talk of current events. Get space in what I bring to this show. I hope you have a mind that is open to hearing about it, there is so much to learn from my guest. As you listen, you'll hear me leaning and learning in as we talk, Bellamy's story isn't unique to her and much of us takes us into territory that we don't often explore in the podcast. I really, really hope you enjoy and make sure you vote, vote, vote, vote.

Hi, listeners. I am so excited to introduce you to this week's guest on the podcast, Bellamy Schaffner. Bellamy is a single parent writer and equity advocate specializing in fostering thoughtful connection and conversations among communities. Schaffner's revolutionary humans produces a magazine, retreats and free community events, all for parents and educators committed to social justice. This past summer, our community, the joyful courage. Community raised $800 in support of Bellamy and her work. I am so honored for the chance to connect with her get to know her a little bit better having her here on the podcast. Hi, Bellamy, welcome to the show. Hi. Thank

Bellamy Shoffner 2:15
you for having me.

Casey O'Roarty 2:16
Yeah. Can you tell the audience a little bit about your journey of doing what you do,

Bellamy Shoffner 2:22
sure. So when I became a parent about nine years ago, it was shortly after that the murder of Trayvon Martin occurred, and that kind of changed my whole outlook as a parent of a young black child. And slowly, as I became more aware of my concerns and and maybe sort of how people that I knew weren't concerned, I decided that I wanted to do more to try to amplify stories surrounding social justice. Thank

Casey O'Roarty 2:58
you for the work that you do. I think it's so important. And what's been the biggest surprise along the way for you?

Bellamy Shoffner 3:06
I think the big surprise, honestly, is how many people so I produced this digital magazine, and one of the biggest surprises was how many people would purchase the magazine, but never actually download the magazine, and therefore never read the magazine, and realizing that if you weren't reading the magazine, you weren't getting the content, and then you weren't able to learn anything from it or change any of your actions or interactions because

Casey O'Roarty 3:32
of it. So how did you navigate that? One of the things I tried

Bellamy Shoffner 3:36
to do was sort of adapt. Is okay, we have this we have this magazine, and we put out four issues with the magazine of parents sharing their stories and their like, their personal experiences with different issues, as far as racism and sexism and all of that. And I thought, Well, how else can we reach parents and educators? What else can we do? And so one of the things that I started was this guide of activities and printables and things that folks can do with their kids to make it more interactive and less

Casey O'Roarty 4:13
less of a passive kind of what I mean, yeah, I'm like, it's like, you there's, and I think that is true in So many ways. You know, there's the passive reading right experience, and then there's the actual action of integrating and doing,

Bellamy Shoffner 4:28
yes, exactly, exactly. And I wanted to figure out a way to get people to actually have the conversations with themselves and with their kids and do something about it. And so there were a number of steps we have, I have the guide with activities and things like that. We did two retreats and we did summer camp. So we did a lot of different things, aside from just the magazine, but the magazine was the catalyst.

Casey O'Roarty 4:53
Yeah, and tell me the name of the magazine. It has such a great name that

Bellamy Shoffner 4:58
the magazine is called hold the line. In and, you know, the name just just came from the activist idea of, you know, holding the line against injustice and for parents, especially we, we would always stand in the way of anything that was attempting to harm or anyone that attempting to harm our children. So it was really important to choose a name that was powerful. Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 5:22
I love that name. And I think that, you know when I think about so, we connected through Antonia Montoya, who is a mutual person that we both appreciate and love. And I know that she has written a piece for your magazine around, was it around gender, LGBTQ? I

Bellamy Shoffner 5:42
actually think she wrote ways to talk to your kids about social justice, or ways to talk to your kids about race. Oh, nice. Within the very first issue, how

Casey O'Roarty 5:53
do you find writers for your magazine? Is it something that's still I mean, are you still producing?

Bellamy Shoffner 5:58
Yeah. So the thing about the magazine right now is that because of the kind of social uprising, a lot of the I want to produce another magazine, but a lot of the submissions I'm getting are solely from white writers who are congratulating themselves on not being racist, and they and they've taken a variety of approaches, but all of the almost every essay that I get is that. So I can't produce another magazine without different content, content that's not that. And then that also circles around to how I find writers. Is just through posts. Sometimes I reach out to people directly. It's sometimes it's word of mouth. A lot of times, I don't know where the writers have found out about it. So, yeah, just mostly it's hope. It's relying fully on, you know, hoping the right, the right people find revolutionary humans and hope the one,

Casey O'Roarty 6:55
yeah, what's the mission of your business? When you like, when you look ahead at what what is it that you want to create in the world? I

Bellamy Shoffner 7:05
really want to create a world where my kids can feel safe and secure and know that they won't be in harm's way based on any part of their identity. Yeah, and so my, you know, if I feel like parents, you know, parents and educators, we have the power to help kids understand differences, help them appreciate similarities and help guide them to be more accepting humans and not just tolerate, but actually accepting. Yeah, of the fact that there are so many kinds of people in the world, and that's okay, so my goal is just to be a part of that conversation and be someone that helps other people have that help have those conversations with their kids and with their classes.

Casey O'Roarty 7:55
I love the distinction between acceptance and tolerance, like the things that we tolerate, right? Like, right? It's not the same everyone. So I just really wanted to highlight that, because that's a big distinction. And I think there's been a lot of conversation in the past around, like, you know, teaching tolerance and and how that's this big leap towards equality, and it's really not, because the things we tolerate are things that are kind of annoying, but okay, I'll deal with it, you know, versus wow, I get to see this person as a whole person. I get to see myself as a whole person. I get to, you know, navigate conversations and learning and growing together with this person like that's a whole nother mindset. So appreciate that distinction. So you're also a single mom. I am. Will you share a little bit about your single mom story? Oh,

Bellamy Shoffner 8:52
my single mom story is a complete surprise, so there's that. But you know, it looks shortly after I started the magazine, I'll say it became apparent that at some point I'd be needing to get a divorce, and it

Casey O'Roarty 9:10
didn't have to do with the magazine, or was there, okay,

Bellamy Shoffner 9:14
most unfortunate of timing. Okay, got it. I took on this, this whole magazine by myself, and then I got a job, a part time job, as a result of starting the magazine. And so I've taken on all this work. And then I just, you know, realized that I wasn't married to the person that I thought I was married to. And so it took a while to get to the point where I was a single mom, but kind of through the ups and downs of that whole situation, we've now gotten to the point where I'm 100% single mom, and I have my kids with me, 24/7 and adjusting to that during the pandemic in which you can't really rely on. Your friends, yeah, there's, there's no it's really hard to let any outside support. So the so it's been, it's been difficult. It has absolutely been the hardest thing that I've had to manage. And I assume it may always be the hardest thing that I have to manage. I think some things will get better, but it's just not what I anticipated. And I think even when you get if you get divorced, you don't expect the other parent to completely check out. And so, right? So, yeah, it's been difficult, have

Casey O'Roarty 10:33
you? Have you had to have any kind of grieving process? Because I imagine, like you said, it's not what you expected, it's not what you signed. You know, I don't think any of us think like, Well, I think we all kind of hold this vision of what family is going to look like, especially when we've, you know, found a partner and start going through the process of having kids. Did you have to go through any kind of or have you? Or are you going through any kind of grieving, yeah, that vision,

Bellamy Shoffner 11:03
right? I think the answer is, is both of those I have, I've had to go through a number of different grieving processes. Because for me, I think sometimes, sometimes people know early on, or even before they get married, that they've married the wrong person. In my case, I did not know, and this person was basically hiding a lot of themselves. So there was a huge grieving process for this 14 years that we had spent together that I didn't know, that he wasn't who he said he was, and so that that alone was a, you know, very deep and heavy process that, and it continues because now I'm, I'm grieving that not only was he not the person he said he was for me, but the same for my kids, he seemed to be a very involved parent, and has now completely flipped that around. And so there, there's a series of of grieving processes. And I think between that and just with our families of origin, there are, like, you know, other issues going on there. And so it's, it's really the reality check for me is, not only am I a single parent, but I'm a single parent with very little outside support, and it seems, I think a lot of times it just seems impossible, because it just seems completely unrealistic. So, yeah, so I wrestle with that a lot, and at the same time, we're, we're happy, our home is more peaceful. And like, you know, we're, we're doing the things, and we're okay, but, every day I'm like, I can't, I can't. I'm not sure how we're okay. I don't know every, every day, it amazes me. There's not a day that goes by where I'm like, Yeah, this was easy. Every day is a fight to just, you know, hold it all together, right? I Yeah.

Casey O'Roarty 13:05
Well, and I mentioned to you before I hit record, and I just want to highlight it to the listeners that I'm really grateful to have you on for a lot of reasons, one of which is I know that I don't have a lot of guests who speak from the single parent experience, and I know that I have listeners who are single parents. And so you know those of you that are listening, I really hope that what Bellamy is talking about is landing for you, and I hope that you're feeling seen. And I really encourage those of us who aren't single parents to really turn on the listening as well, because I think there's this. And I don't know when I read this or I heard it, but at some point I heard someone say, quit talking about the weekend that your partner is away as you single parenting, because it is not the same that has stuck with me. And even as I've gone through like, you know, in 2019 my husband worked in California for six months, you know, we had a significant amount of time apart. And every time I found myself like, found that on the tip of my tongue I would pull it back in because I was like, nope, not the same. Not gonna put it out there. Not gonna insult my friends who actually are single parents with my flippant comment about, like, single parenting, missing Ben, you know. So I just want everyone to hear that. And you sent me a really powerful essay about your experience, which whose title I Love. Everything is bullshit we can swear. Just let you know. And something that also kind of similar to this whole, you know, kind of flip I'm single parenting right now comment you highlighted. Some of the things that you hear from people who love you that aren't necessarily useful support. So can you talk a little bit just about your experience with being a single mom and that loving yet misguided support that you hear from friends and family,

Bellamy Shoffner 15:21
sure this, I guess to talk about it, the more important part is not just the single parent part, but also the part where there my my kid's father just is not interacting with them at all. He does not call, he does not text. He saw one of he saw them three months ago for one child's birthday, and then completely missed the other child's birthday. So we're at this really intense point of me realizing that he is not going to be a parent, and that is stressful, and it's something that you talk to your friends about, and it's something that you want to seek support for, and it's not, it's not something that I want to hold in and kind of struggle through, struggle through on my own. And at the same time, I think it is something that people typically would struggle through on their own, and they would not speak up so much about it. And so in speaking up about it, I have gotten quite a few comments about what I'm not doing to get him to do the right thing, and about it being my responsibility to set up a schedule for him to call, or to force him to answer or to go knock on his door wherever he is, and insist that he be a parent, and insist that he remember that his children are here. He knows they are here. He was there when they were born like they he doesn't need it's not my job to remind him and and also it totally disregards the the two years of time that I spent trying to get him to do the right thing, and trying to figure out different ways than trying to make a schedule, and it just put it puts all the it's the quintessential victim blaming to say, Well, why didn't you just do this? And then he would be a decent person, and he would see his children again. And so I really, I had just reached a point of being fed up when I wrote, everything is bullshit, because every because, like, on top of everything else, on top of having to deal with, you know, on top of having to wash every dish and pay every bill and cater to, you know, Both children's needs at all times and my my kids will not let me sleep alone, on top of having to take care of my mental health and their mental health while they're being abandoned by their father, on top of me taking on every possible responsibility for the household, it is not also my job to make sure he does the right thing. It is absolutely the opposite of my job to make sure he does the right thing, and especially in any in any case, but especially in this case, where how we all ended up this way had very little to do with me. So, yeah, so the so I just, I wrote that because I was, I was tired, and people often think they're helping and they are not helping. Or, you know, people will reach out and ask how they can help. But if you are, if you are more tired than you have ever been, you actually don't know the answer to how someone can help. Yesterday, one of my friends sent me a random delivery of like olive tapenade and dark chocolate and and all of that and that, like, that's how

Casey O'Roarty 18:44
you help, yes, yeah. And that is so powerful Bellamy. And I think that that can be, you know, in any kind of context. Because I, you know this last year, my listeners know my husband was diagnosed with cancer, and well meaning loving friends and family want to know how they can help without realizing that that question, in and of itself, is exhausting, right? Like, come on. You can think about it a little bit, you know. And I finally, I read this great chapter in the multiple myeloma handbook that I bought survival guide or something that was all about, like, how to navigate friends and family. And the author was like, You need to have a go to response. And so now I in my little updates, I write, if you want to help, we need grocery store gift cards and cash. Here's my Venmo, you know, like, done and I've and people have so appreciated that. So I just want everybody like, and I think, as moms were really good at good in quotes, at like, no, it's fine, because. Because it's easier than actually thinking about, well, you could come fold some laundry or, you know, and so friends and family being more proactive than just that. I think we feel better when we say the words, how can I help, right? But it's really about us and less about the other person, right?

Bellamy Shoffner 20:19
And that's the problem, is that, how can I help? Is self centered in a way that it's not meant to be, but it is, yeah, it is kind of self focused,

Casey O'Roarty 20:28
yeah. And I also there was something else that you said that was really powerful, too. Oh, the language of you should just and I have to tell you, Melanie, when I read that, when I read your essay, I immediately thought of one of my closest friends who is, you know, a couple years out from her, from a relationship with her partner, they have one child together, and he is a disaster. And I had to go back to her and apologize, because I was full of you. Should just you should just do this. This is what you need to do, as if I know right, not being a part of the situation, not being inside her body, navigating the emotional experience that she's having. I had to go and coming from a place of pure love for her, but I went back to her, and I said, Listen, I just want to acknowledge this, that I've been doing this, and I am so sorry. And you know, I have full faith in you and how you're navigating this, and I'm here for you. Yeah, I'm a shudder, and I do it with my kids, and I do it with my friends, and so it was just another opportunity reading your essay to recognize again. Oh, yeah, this is a thing that I get to continuously work on as a supporter of other people, because I don't like it either, right? I don't like it either. God bless my stepmom, but she tells me all the time what I should be doing, and I'm like, shut up. So yeah, thank you. Thank you so much for that. Do you feel like your personal story, or how has and you shared a little bit just with the birth of your first and the Trayvon Martin story coming out right at that time, and that being an influence on your social justice work, has the evolution of your family dynamic come into play as well?

Bellamy Shoffner 22:31
Yes, yes, it has. I think, I think that I was pretty sure that I was kind of enough on the margins before, and I think right now, I feel like I'm on the margins of the margins. Um,

Casey O'Roarty 22:49
and what do you mean? What do you mean by that?

Bellamy Shoffner 22:52
I mean, I think that, you know, as a, as a, as a black person, as a black mom, I was kind of like, Oh, I feel, I feel very oppressed, yeah, and, you know, not to make light of it, but it's like, Oh, so now I'm a single black mind, and now I have, you know, two kids that are relying on me, and I've obviously had less money because I don't have a spouse. Like, there are lots of things that are harder for me than when I started the magazine, and that has changed. It has changed a few things, including like, who I'm willing to pay to write for the magazine, and how much, how much work I'm willing to put in to edit somebody, somebody else's work to kind of rewrite somebody else's work so that it fits in the magazine. Like my my idea of the value of my time and of my own money has changed in a new way that impacts how I how I plan to work from from here on out, and then also in kind of a weird way, the presence that I have on social media, I feel like, has changed. I don't want to sensationalize my own story. My own story is sensational. There are a number of surprising factors, but I don't want to gain popularity of my own struggle, and so it's been important to me to kind of pull back and do a little less personal storytelling as far as being the mom of black children, because there are so many parts of my identity that I'm now kind of figuring out and realizing it's, I'm sorry, it's Just so I feel like it's so hard to

Casey O'Roarty 24:44
explain. Yeah, no, no, you're good. I so I have a question about that, because I so I work with parents. You know this about me, and one of the things that I have gotten feedback around is. I went because I share my own personal parenting story and lifeing story. People are drawn like, if, if somebody has a teenager who's going off the rails and they don't know what to do, they appreciate that. I too have had experiences with raising a teen who is not fitting into the box of this is what it looks like to live through the teen years. And so I wonder. And just like you just said, you know, but I guess, I guess I'm wondering too, who you're like? Who are you speaking to with your work, right? Because if, if, if I'm a, you know, if I'm a black single mom, and I'm looking for resources, the idea that someone who has on the, you know, from the purely mechanical place, like a similar story, I'm going to be drawn to that, right? But is your work? Is that who your work is targeting? Like, who are you? Who are you creating revolutionary humans for? Right?

Bellamy Shoffner 26:07
And I think that that's the thing, is that what it was can't be what it is now, because I am not the same person I was three years ago or two years ago. And so I think right now, what's happening is that I'm not I'm not sure I am. So much I know that so many of the magazines were purchased by white Moms. I'm sure that most of the people my website

Casey O'Roarty 26:33
speaking for all the white moms.

Bellamy Shoffner 26:34
No apology needed. But, but, yeah, I think part of me wanting to slow down on the things that I say and the things that I do and the things I write about, is like trying to understand, well, what is, what is my focus now? Because my life is so completely different than I ever thought it would be. And also, like audience wise, where do I find value. And it's, I think it's really tricky. I think it's a, I think it's a really tricky situation, because I really want to be careful to not tokenize myself. And at the same time, I'm like, a really good candidate for a tokenization, right? So, you know, figuring out how to do that is, it's really caused just a pause, like I feel like I'm just kind of waiting and working a little but, you know, waiting to figure out how to proceed. Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 27:28
and your work with schools and educators, what does that content look like, or what does it look like in the past?

Bellamy Shoffner 27:35
Well, you know, the thing about that is that I was trying. I was getting ready to start trying to work more in schools and with educators before covid. So I actually did not, did not get the chance to do that. But the idea now would be that all of the content that's on the website, the printables and the discussion guides and all of all those sorts of things could be used in a classroom setting or virtual school setting, and so eventually I'm gonna, I'll start working on pushing that content out to educators more than, more than I do now. But you know, everything has changed. I had, yeah, I had planned. I had a retreat planned. I had all of these, all of these things planned, and now everything's just kind of on hold

Casey O'Roarty 28:27
well. And I really appreciate the honesty in what you said around just not really being sure in this moment and not wanting to tokenize yourself, which I think that if my audience was a bunch of, you know, black moms, they would be like, oh, yeah, I know what that means, but that's not who we're talking to right now. And so like, can you tease apart what that means? Because I think there's probably plenty of people that moms like me follow and learn from who might actually have stepped into that role, and we don't even realize that we don't know because we don't know because we're blind to our blindness. And so what does that mean to you? Not tokenizing yourself?

Bellamy Shoffner 29:18
I think it means to if I A lot of times, I become perceived as like the safe black person, the black person who knows a little bit about social justice, but is not going to be too mean to you, and so is allowed to step into the white spaces. And so you step into the white spaces, right? Because

Casey O'Roarty 29:38
we don't want to feel bad. We don't, we don't want any, okay, any feelings

Bellamy Shoffner 29:42
those get in the way of everything. Yeah, person, I'm allowed to step into mostly white spaces and be the only black person, the representative for all black people, and have all of that you. Intention, or all the questions focus specifically on me as a safe, black person. And so that's so that's one side of it. I think the other side of it is sort of the idea that as someone who has been through a number of, you know, trials and tribulations and all that, and I have, I mean, there's a single mom part, but also I have multiple sclerosis, and so there's, like, a number of different angles, or someone that say, oh, like, you're a great representative for everyone whose life just kind of sucks. Like you, you just come on over and stand there and be that person, and you'll be the one that we look to to figure out how, how to be like good people, or how to be kind people. And like, I want to be the person that someone can look at to learn more about being a more empathetic person. I do not want to be the person who people use in place of doing their own work. And so to tokenize would be to say, well, Bellamy is here, so the work is done. Or, you know, Bellamy, you know, Bellamy said it was okay to only do this, so this is what I'm going to do, rather than putting in the real work. Yeah.

Casey O'Roarty 31:12
And so when you think about the real work and the real work, I mean, I feel, I know, in my experience, it's been, you know, my own personal work and uncovering and discovering my hidden biases and, you know, racist mindsets that I just didn't, you know because I am a white person living in, like, the white bubble that I've been raised in, I didn't know that they existed. And so there's that work, and then there's like, so that's like, that internal work, and then the external work. When I think about social justice and the action and the integration, what are you what do you feel are some like, of the really key and I don't want to like, I'm in this moment. I'm like, Okay, I want to ask this question, but I want to emphasize what I just said, everyone like there is this deeply internal work that we all get to be in charge of for ourselves, and it's enlightening and humbling and at times painful, and that doesn't mean that we shy away from it. And then so there's that, and then there's this activation, right? There's this, you know, when I think about social justice, when most of us think about social justice, we think about, I'm guessing, you know, the action, the activism, being activated. And so what do you see as some key things that parents can do to really fold social justice into the way that they're raising their kids?

Bellamy Shoffner 32:47
Such a big question. I think there are some, like, sort of initial basic things that I personally am tired of hearing about, but know that they are important, and that's you know, starting with your home library and your your books, the movies you watch, the shows you watch, make sure that you are attempting to represent more cultures than your own, and all of these things. And with my kids books, I have gone through a time or two and intentionally made their books so that they are mostly mostly characters of color are featured in all of their books. And that was an intentional choice. It's something that more people sure there could do, and I think it makes a big difference in representation, especially when so often elsewhere in the world, white people are so well represented. So that's that's one obvious thing. And then I think also to have the conversations. Like on my website, I'm going to add more, but right now I have, like, some conversation starters, some little cards of like, questions you can ask your kids, things like that that are principal like, just have the conversations. And I think a lot of it starts with confidence in yourself and loving yourself. And when you are when you fully love yourself, you're able to, you know, put love out into the world and understand that the value of all people. And so you'll, you'll see that I have some information about self self worth on there too, and, you know, community justice and action and all of that. And I think I really would love to see a natural, non tokenizing way for more families in a post covid time, for more families to actually get together and build genuine relationships, independent of their demographics. And I think not in a, I don't see color way, because that's detrimental to everyone, but in a and just a genuine, like appreciation for. Other types of people. That is something that I see often lacking with white families. And I say that as someone who, who has been the only black person that lots of white kid birthday parties, both as a party player and now as a parent, and so the genuine, a sort of genuine interest in building real friendships with people who are not like you, I think is really valuable, and something that we probably can learn from kids, if we if, if not, having said, having to set the example for them, figuring out how to do that in a way that's genuine, that's really not up to me, like I haven't. You

Casey O'Roarty 35:41
don't want me to ask you that question.

Bellamy Shoffner 35:43
No, no, no, I haven't. Really, I

Casey O'Roarty 35:47
wouldn't like to be the expert on it.

Can we talk a little bit about that, though? Because I like I mentioned, I have, I'm at, I live on the West Coast. I was raised in a really privileged white bubble, and now live in a wonderfully, on a lot of levels, progressive small city in Washington state. However, it's, I don't know what the demographics are, but it's, you know, like, high 90% probably white. So how progressive is it really? So I like, and I so I'm at the grocery store, and I see this beautiful family walk in with a couple kids, and one of the parents is black and one of the parents is white, and I and I talk to everybody anyway, and but I'm wearing a mask, which is always annoying. But I'm thinking to myself, like, I really want to, just plus the climate right now, like, I just really wanted to be like, I see you, you're beautiful. And I didn't, because I also didn't want to be that. Like, you know, I'm aware of intention versus impact, right? And I didn't want, I just was sensitive, and I didn't want it to be taken as any other way of, like, you know, community, love, right? And so, like, I don't, so I'm just saying I'm sharing my story, because I'm sure that there's other people who are listening and like, yeah, how do we how do we do that? Like, I mean, it's, it's, it could be as simple when we all can be in the same room as each other. It could be as simple as walking into a room full of people you don't know, and instead of looking around for the person that might you know look like you find someone who looks different than you, whether that's you know, racially or style wise, or whatever like, what might start happening if we stop kind of congregating towards the on the surface? Quote, comfortable, safe, familiar, and move more towards new and different and so much to learn and like, what a world? What would the world be like?

Bellamy Shoffner 38:11
I mean, and when you think about it, that is what everyone else has to do all the time. That's what people have to do all the time, is walk into a room with a lot of people that don't look like us and and try to try to make genuine connections.

Casey O'Roarty 38:27
How do you decide who to migrate towards? What do you what are the characteristics?

Bellamy Shoffner 38:33
I mean, I, I was gonna say I generally avoid people, but that's probably true. I mean, I think, I think a lot of, a lot of what makes me gravitate towards people is just how friendly their vibe is. And some, sometimes I kind of gravitate toward people who are artsy and look kind of like weird. And we

Casey O'Roarty 38:59
would love Bellingham. There's lots of weirdos up here.

Bellamy Shoffner 39:03
I believe it. I believe it. I think, I think that. I wish I could say that there is no type of person. I think I find most people fairly, fairly interesting. And as I'm thinking of people that I have just like, naturally started conversations with there. There is no common denominator there at all, which is, I mean, which is probably a lesson in itself, of just like, take people as they are, as individuals and and see what happens

Casey O'Roarty 39:35
well. And I wonder, yeah, how much of that just speaks into your experience, like you said, of walking into a room and rarely having those you know, surface details that you know draw you towards people who seem familiar. So I mean, I'm, yeah, I'm just sitting with that. And I also think there is an invitation. Regardless of who you are and who's in the room, there's always a level of vulnerability that exists. And I love vulnerability. I just think, you know, I just think it's the most amazing thing ever when we get to, like, peel back all the bullshit and really be seen and be uncomfortable. You know, my half of my family is like, Oh, hell no, not going there, not doing that. But I'm like, yes,

Unknown Speaker 40:36
what can we do? How

Casey O'Roarty 40:36
can we stretch? And so I love that. I'm loving this conversation. Because I feel like, yeah, people that are listening, you know, what is your relationship with vulnerability? Because if we don't, if we're not willing to be vulnerable, I think that really gets in the way of the kind of social justice work that is being screamed out for right now and has been forever. But you know, some of us are just now hearing it,

Bellamy Shoffner 41:02
yeah. I mean, I totally agree this whole portion of this conversation reminds me that last year I had my my poor black children in this very fancy, predominantly white school, and it was a school that made lots of lots of efforts to be culturally competent, so I wasn't really too much worried. And also, my kids are probably some of the most well affirmed children to ever exist. So I wasn't super worried about their ability to be in that space. But I just reminded me of one, one more. There's Oh, there's this mom. And every time I would see her, she obviously, you know, was doing very well financially. And every time I see her, she's like, Hey girl, hey girl. And I used to get such a big kick out of her, Hey girl. And one day she said, how are you? And I was like, terrible. And she was like, Oh my God, thank you for saying it like, you know, she was so happy that somebody else was willing to admit that it wasn't a good day. And then it from there. I feel like we really had more of a genuine connection. Because especially in places like that, where it is the whole all of the scenery of the campus, and all of it was curated to make you feel like life is always going to be good. I think it's, it was, you know, super powerful to just say like, yeah, this day is the worst. But how are you like? And yeah, just being vulnerable is is key, and is maybe something. And, you know, maybe that's one tool to be able to make more connections with people who who don't seem to be like you. Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 42:51
I love that. Hey, girl. Oh, just do what we're all just doing our best. Do you have any thoughts for people that are listening? You know, because you mentioned early on, well, you use the term family of origin, and you know, there's a lot, I mean, there's the way that we're raising our kids, and then that's like as adults inside of a family of origin, that's, I mean, its own special therapy session in and of itself. Um, and just considering what's coming in 40 days from today and everybody votes, um, there are some seriously divided families. Do you have any tips or strategies from you know, your revolutionary humans work that can help those of us that are really struggling to, I don't know, invite their family into some broader perspective taking and I also want to say, like, I just don't with my dad, like we just don't. I had to just say, like, pull out a boundary and say, we, can we get to connect on so many other things, because as far as social justice mindsets and politics. We are this exact same people on opposite ends of the spectrum. So it just, it's like, not work, like I can't so be besides those family members. But the, you know, the other ones, do you have any thoughts about how we can engage them in taking some bigger steps, or even just enlightening them or encouraging them to, like, pick up a good book that would be useful.

Bellamy Shoffner 44:57
Oh, you know my my answer to this. Question is completely unhelpful and Okay, so you're welcome in advance. No because I think that at this point, even though political party lines should not indicate how you feel about human rights. That's not the way that things are happening, and so no like if I if someone is talking to me about voting for Trump, I would have no choice but to assume that they're racist and I should no longer be in their presence, and that conversation is going to end there. So from a personal perspective, I don't have any suggestions, because I consider it completely unacceptable, and I would not I just wouldn't be able to continue any interaction, because that's a personal threat, right? It is not unharmful to me if, if I were a white person, I guess I'd have a little more leeway, but I don't, and I also don't know that our time is best spent trying to convince people who are committed to not understanding and committed to hatred. I don't know if that is I don't know that that is something that can be influenced in the way that I prefer to do my work. And I don't know that it's something that can really be changed through any conversation. And I think you can suggest books and things like that, but at the point, the point at which you if the point at which you are suggesting things is after you're already fighting, then it's too late, yeah, and no one wants to hear you. So trying to figure out a way to connect with people before it gets to that point, I think, is great, but at this stage, I mean, everything is just so polarized. I'm not really, I'm not really sure, yeah, and, I mean, it's unfortunate, because obviously, like, you know, for my work, I would love to believe that there were some change. There's no magic possibility to change, right? Exactly, is that there is a magic I have not developed the magic wand. I'll let you know.

Casey O'Roarty 47:29
Well, you know, as I'm listening to you, and like I said, I drew that line with my dad, like I love I love my dad. Of course I love my dad. And we just, there's no point in that conversation for me, because he's a rich, white guy, and ultimately, that's really what it comes down to. And for whatever reason, he can let go of the like the human rights factor of his choice. So that being said, as I was listening to you, I was remembering that it's it's a lot like when so I'm a positive discipline trainer, and I fit underneath this positive parenting model of parenting. And you know, for a lot of people, it is vastly different than the way that we were raised. It's not punishment and consequences, it's not authoritarian. And so a lot of times I'll be working with parents who are like, oh my, parents just don't get it, or even like my partner and I have different views on this, and I'm thinking like, this is probably useful in this conversation too. One of the biggest tools that we have is simply the modeling, you know, and and how we're showing up. And I know that is, it's not like the same it's not a magic wand, like, you know, like we're saying, but it is, you know, a powerful way of supporting other people in developing a new perspective when somebody they respect and love is living and making choices and speaking up for what it is that they believe in that, that that can hold a lot of power. Maybe not so much for the person that's like, hardcore committed, but for the people kind that are like, kind of float in the middle, that have some open mindedness, seeing somebody that they love and respect, you know, speaking up against social injustice, taking action, doing their work, I think, can be a really powerful tool for supporting, for inviting others into their own social justice work,

Bellamy Shoffner 49:32
right? Yeah, I absolutely think that's true, and that, and that may be the greatest tool that we have, is just to keep doing, keep doing what we're doing, or do more of what we're doing and be vocal about, be vocal about where we stand, without necessarily engaging in arguments. I think when you engage in the arguments, the other side of the argument gets the ammunition. How. Of knowing that you're angry too and you're you know that you're combative rather than and there, and then there's just no chance for to find common ground at that point. So yeah, I think modeling is is a great way to go. You found it. You figured it out. Yeah, great.

Casey O'Roarty 50:16
Thank you for supporting. No. Oh, this is I'm so glad to finally be in actual conversation with you. After all of our emailing back and forth and doing our fundraiser this summer, it just feels really good to get to know you.

Bellamy Shoffner 50:33
Thank you. Thank you for that. I really appreciate it.

Casey O'Roarty 50:36
My last question that I have, that I ask all of my podcast guests is in the context of everything that we talked about today, what does joyful courage mean to you?

Bellamy Shoffner 50:48
Oh, wow. I think, on a personal level, I think it means just the will to take every day as a as a fresh chance to, you know, have a good day, and to be joyful, and to not live too much in the past, and to just appreciate and have gratitude for what is happening now every day, it takes courage, sort of naturally and so to find the joy in that is pretty powerful. And on a on a professional level, I think, just believing that something can get better and that things will improve, and that, you know, in 40 days,

Casey O'Roarty 51:37
will we have a different Yeah,

Bellamy Shoffner 51:40
we'll be able to celebrate, yeah, just, just hope, I think, is my priority there, yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 51:48
love that. Where can listeners find you revolutionary

Bellamy Shoffner 51:52
humans.com, awesome and that, yeah, that's my main, my main place,

Casey O'Roarty 51:57
okay? And we can find all your social and your resources and everything there. So yep, yay. Thank you so much for spending time with me today.

Bellamy Shoffner 52:07
Thank you. This was great. I really appreciate it.

Casey O'Roarty 52:17
Thank you again for listening. I so appreciate you and all of the feedback you provide me about how the show is landing for you, feel free to join our communities on Facebook. I have two groups there. Live in love with joyful courage, or the joyful courage. For parents of teens, they are safe, supportive and compassionate places where we share and support each other on our journeys. Also, it matters so much when you leave reviews on Apple podcasts, as more and more people search for shows that are meaningful to them, your reviews will get this show in front of new listeners. I'd be very grateful for that, and I'm always grateful that you choose to listen in. Remember when things get tough, find your breath, ride it into your body, release the tension you find there, climb to the balcony seat and know that everything's gonna be okay. Have a great week.

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