What does joyful courage mean to you?

Joyful courage means innocence, where everyone’s innocent. No one’s guilty. Everyone’s allowed to take up as much space as possible.

 

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Transcription

Casey O'Roarty 0:03
CACE, Hello, friends. Welcome to joyful courage, a place where we tease apart what it means to be a conscious parent and a conscious human on this wild ride of life. I am your host. Casey o'rourdy, positive discipline trainer, parent, coach and Mama walk in the path right next to you. As I imperfectly raise my own two teenagers, I am so excited to share today's guest with you. It is my hope that her parenting story is one that resonates with your fierce instincts around loving and protecting your child no matter what it is important to me to share stories that aren't the typical unfolding for all families, some of you in the audience will feel deeply seen, and some of you will get a glimpse into a dynamic that will make you a better friend and supporter of others in your circle. It takes a village to raise a child. It takes a village to empower a parent. I'm so deeply grateful that you are a part of the joyful courage village, as usual, I would love to know what you think about this conversation you can share in either of the joyful courage Facebook groups live and love with joyful courage or joyful courage for parents of teens, both are safe places for vulnerable conversations. And if you're moved to please take a few minutes to rate and review the show on Apple podcasts. This helps parents looking for support to find us, and your review gives them a glimpse into what we are all about. All right, so glad you're here. Enjoy the show.

You okay, I am so excited to welcome today's guest to the podcast, Maureen Muldoon. Maureen is a spiritual Pied Piper, shameless storyteller and speaker who is transforming the way people think of church, sex, spirituality and creativity. Actress, author, activist. She celebrates the miracles that live beneath the mundane, and is devoted to helping others to create their most engaged and unapologetic life. Today, she is on to talk to me about her experience of mothering a transgender son. Hi, Maureen, welcome to the podcast.

Maureen Muldoon 2:24
Hi, thanks so much for having me.

Casey O'Roarty 2:26
Yeah, tell us a little bit more about your journey of doing what you do.

Maureen Muldoon 2:32
Well, what I do is I lead spiritual communities, and I lead them in spirituality and in creativity. I came up through the Catholic Church, and then 12 step, and then I went to science of mine and became a spiritual practitioner. And when I moved from Los Angeles to Chicago to transition into a new role, I was letting go of my acting career, which I had done for 25 years, and I just had this calling to open my own spiritual center. And I really did it, because I was at this point in the Midwest, and I I wasn't finding on the menu what I needed for my own spiritual food. And so since I couldn't find it, I thought I should create it, and I wanted it or for myself and for my children and for a lot of my friends who were disenfranchised by their own spiritual communities. And so it's the community I run is called speakeasy, and it's where we simply sit around and speak easily about all things spiritual. And the idea is that we pitch a topic or a subject, and then we all share on it, you know. So, so all voices are welcomed, all questions, all comments, all concerns, all conflicts. You know, we say don't leave your brains or your beliefs or your background at the door like we we don't have all the answers, but we love the questions. So um, so that's so that's what I do on Sunday morning, and that in that community, I also teach a lot of other classes, like A Course in Miracles and writing groups. So that's basically how I spend my days.

Casey O'Roarty 4:26
Yeah. And so you have, how many kids do you have?

Maureen Muldoon 4:29
I have four. I have four children, and what are their ages? So my oldest is Owen, and he's 28 and then my daughter, Billy is 22 my son Liam is just turned 20, and my youngest is Ryan, and he is just about to turn 18.

Casey O'Roarty 4:49
Oh, so you're nearly on the other side of the teen years.

Maureen Muldoon 4:52
I can't even believe it, like, Oh my gosh. I'm like, is that real? I'm not lucky. A car seat like I'm not sweating it out on the airplane.

Casey O'Roarty 5:02
It's just like a whole new world I imagine. Yeah, uh huh, yeah, yeah. Well, one of the things that I really that really caught my eye about an email that you sent to me about coming on the show is when you talked about your transgender son teaching you how to be brave. So can you and it's so fascinating to hear about your spiritual background and just all of the conversation that happens amongst different communities around you know the topic of being transgender, can you talk a little bit about the courage that you are embodying because of your son.

Maureen Muldoon 5:45
Sure, even when you say that, I get like, emotional, it's like, so, yeah, my son came out about he went out when he was 13, and he came out first as lesbian, and then he began to talk about being transgender, and then he came out as transgender and and I wasn't. The crazy thing is, I wasn't too surprised, because as a child, as a young child, even as a baby, in my stomach, I was sure it was a boy, and as he grew up, he was a very scrappy girl. And so we weren't too surprised, but there's a difference between being, you know, open minded and completely accepting, and then when it sits down at your kitchen table, because it's no longer, yeah, this is absolutely right, but it's this is my child going out into a world that thinks it's wrong, and that that was what made me need to go deeper into the conversation. And what was interesting was, and I know that we this is obvious to a lot of people, that the that the kids are so fluid right now, and so accepting, and it's the parents who are, you know, really having problems, jumping the fence and accepting it and all that it means. And, and there's a, there's a spectrum of what's, what's acceptable on either side of the fence, like, I've gotten comments from people that say, supporting your son is like cosigning a suicide note. And I've gotten, you know, say, you know, if you don't, if you're not in a radical activist role, you're phoning it in. So there's a major like Grand Canyon between this on the spectrum of the possibilities of the way a parent could react in regards to this topic and so and then there's a lot of people in between who I've gotten to meet. Personally, I Through, through, going through the experience on my own. I i take everything to the theater. So I took this conversation to the theater, and I created a one person show that just talked about my moving through the feelings, the awarenesses, the resistance, the dramas, the fears, and I started taking it around to a bunch of different cities, and the people that would come out to the show were those who would just look at you like deer in a headlights, like, I don't know how to do this. You know, there's no handbook. It's not in the baby book. And you're damned if you do, and you're damned if you don't, and it's just a really hard landmine to walk. And I and I, and I feel like I'm failing 1000 times as parents do anyhow. So it's, um, it's a really tender topic, you know, and I was, I was up for having it, because I feel like we have to have these tough and tender conversations like, these are the things that divide us, and these are the things that could really bring us together. So in navigating it for myself, there were so many awarenesses that I came up with, and so many ways that I had to look at my own sexuality and how I was raised, and the things that I was taught, and the biases and blind spots that traveled with me. And so it's like my son raises me every day, but it's, it's an, it was an interesting process, and, and we're still in the midst of it, you know, like just recently, he's starting testosterone, and the doctor was talking about how, you know, he would be smart or advisable or of concern to harvest his Eggs In case, and he should ever want children and so, and my son was basically adamant about not wanting to do that. And I was like, what at 17, you know, maybe you don't know, and I feel like need to have this conversation with you again and again and again to really make sure that. Um, this is, you know that this is a hard and fast decision because it's not reversible. And what I what I came to realize also was like when a person has gender dysphoria, they to have to have to go through the experience of having your eggs gathered is would be so dramatic for him. And I didn't even think about that, like, I didn't think about how debilitating that would be for him. But I watched my child kind of close down around these topics, and I'm like, wow, he's like, even having the conversation is, you know, it's just scary. So a lot of times it's a classroom and trust in major trust, you know, we had a situation when he was going to get his license, and it was prior to so many of the amazing decisions that are being made to, you know, be able to change the gender on your license, and but it was prior to that. And so we had, what I thought, filled out all the paperwork. Got everything in line. This was a big day, you know, to go get your drive your permit. So we go to the DMV, and we get shuffled from basically counter to count, you know, to counter. And finally, this man who works for the DMV, who's doing his job, he's saying, like he can't have his name on the birth certificate, on the on the on the permit, we have to use his birth certificate name, right? And he's like, it's not a big deal. Just get the permit. He can change it later on down the line.

Casey O'Roarty 11:31
Is what the DMV guy was saying, like, it's not a big deal. Just feel

Maureen Muldoon 11:35
and I'm like, in my mind, I'm thinking, it feels like it's not a big deal

my son and I'm like, There's no way this kid can walk out of the DMV with that name. There's just it's not a thing. It's like, it's like, asking me to to date a woman, like, it's just not my thing. Like, here's just not my thing, and it's okay for it not to be my thing, and there has to be more space in the conversation. So we ended up leaving without a permit, and at this point he still doesn't have one, and at this point he's telling me that he's afraid of driving, but really I feel like he's afraid of navigating this conversation.

Casey O'Roarty 12:12
Yeah, oh man. I mean my mama heart right now feels so many things, and I'm relating to you on so many levels, the god the fucking parenting of teenagers, one is hard as hell, let alone, you know, putting on this layer of gender identity, I know my story and something that people appreciate, and I'm sure you get the same appreciation. You being willing to step on a stage and speak it vulnerably, what a gift for the people that are living inside of it and feeling so alone and so unseen. I know for me, we talk about mental health a lot because that's something that we navigate in my family, and I get permission to talk about it, as I'm sure you have your son's permission to talk about it. And I can't tell you how many people reach out and say you your story is my story, and thank you for speaking it. So God, it's hard, and it's messy right there. Like you said, there's no guidebook.

How did the siblings and the partners and how did everybody else do with the transition? Well,

Maureen Muldoon 13:38
you know, he came out. My other son is on the spectrum. He has Asperger's, and he's just like, okay, like, there's like, Okay, Ryan is now coming. Okay, that was it. My husband was like, the same way. He's like, okay, great. I was the one who had, like, training wheel on. I was like, Oh, my God. Everybody's jumped in the boat, and they're all paddling towards the other shore, and I'm like, messing up the pronouns, and I'm struggling, and I'm, you know, I'm just, you know, dealing with all the things that are not going to be and I'm dealing with the fact that, you know, I am, at this point, representing, you know, the conversation in communities, and still struggling at the very same time, you know. And I remember one time I was down in Florida doing the show, and I had a parent was like, early on in the in the role of the show, and she was saying, you know, this is his, we don't talk about his dead name. And I was like, what is that? And she's like, Yeah, it's the it's the original name, and we call everyone you know who's hip to the conversation, calls it the dead name. And I'm like, I I can't go with that. Like, for me, there's no there's nothing good about anything dead, you know. Like when people were coming out, most parents who didn't have a clue would say, You're dead to me. And There ended up being a. Dead child. And this other child, my my daughter, you know, who transitioned like she's still alive for me and see she's not alive for for Ryan. And I remember, I remember, in regards to the show, you know that Ryan was like, I would like to bring my friends to the show, but I don't want you to mention the name rosemary, which is his original name. And I was like, thinking, How do I do that? Because the show's already written and it's already, you know, I'd have to rewrite a lot. And I said to him, like, you know something, Ryan, like, I honor where you are right now, but there is a girl named Rosemary who's the bravest kid I know No, because if it wasn't for her coming out, I wouldn't know you, so I can't ignore her, like she sits between us and I honor her, and I get that it makes you uncomfortable, but I'm also part of this story, like my feelings are also part of this story, which is a weird place to be as a parent, really, we do, like, really genuflect to our children's feelings and make sure that they're okay. But I felt like at this point, like he has to know what the truth is, and not just what I want to tell him.

Casey O'Roarty 16:10
And I well, and it's Yeah, and it sounds like your show is, it's your story,

Maureen Muldoon 16:14
oh yeah. It's just, it really is my story. It's yeah story about him. It's a story about he came out by putting a sign on his bedroom door, and that read, a transgender pansexual lives here, and so like probably 75% of the show happens on my side of the door, you know, where I'm Holy shit. Like, what do I do? I gotta look up pansexual. I gotta figure this thing out. I gotta go through my whole Rolodex of what this means. And no, I got and I got to get to the door, but I keep distracting myself and not getting to the door, because once you get through the door, you can't not go through the door like you're in. You've made the transition, and now you're in. You know that when you talk about the hero's journey, you're no longer in ordinary you're in the magic and and then from there you have to learn all the new languages of, you know, non binary and binders and boy jeans and testosterone and all of this new things are going to come at you. So you spend a lot of time, not a lot of time. But I expanded that for the theater so that, you know, people who are resistance Could, could go through all of those questions and phases with me and go, okay, like, this is navigatable, but this is not an easy jump. Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 17:27
well, and like what you said earlier, about, you know, you can sit and be the most open minded parent on the block, ready for anything, and then you're in it. And I think that you're probably not, I know that you're not the only person who being inside of it was more jarring than or not, not jarring, but just that it's unknown. It's you can't it's not known until it's known,

Maureen Muldoon 17:55
right, right, right, right, right. And I think against the backdrop of all of the horrific things that happen in the world to transgender people. It's just a scary place as a parent. But what I will say is, and this is, this is very common, is when transgender people are acknowledged and honored for the identity that they choose. And this happened for my son? He went from failing everything like literally straight F's. I was like, You know what it takes effort to get straight F's. Man

Casey O'Roarty 18:29
from college one semester, and that took work.

Maureen Muldoon 18:37
So he went from that, from struggling and resistance and being bullied, coming out and straight A's like feeling right in his body and right in his world and right with who he is and happy and I mean, it has been like, if I had known that on the other side of the door, I would have just walked through with, like, greater confidence and grace, but it's the it's, it's a no brainer to support somebody in being authentic in their truth. There's, it's a no brainer in the end, it's just sometimes a bit of a transition to get there. What

Casey O'Roarty 19:12
have been some other unexpected gifts in this process with your son? Well, yeah, I

Maureen Muldoon 19:19
he's an artist, so, and his seeps into his art, and he uses art the way I use art. So you know, some of the paintings that he's done about coming out and have been, like, really inspiring. And he writes music, and he writes songs, and I think it's allowed him to find his voice, which is, in my mind, is everything so those that's been some real gifts is that he's, it's allowed him to find, to really find his voice. And that's been a real gift also, you know, um, I guess with my extended family too. You know that? Uh, people who think, oh, I don't know what I would do if that were to happen. It's, it's kind of nice to see that people that that we are able to do and navigate so many tougher classrooms than we thought, you know, and then, and then, after a while, it's just in the rear view mirror, my my daughter was once my daughter. She is transitioning to become my son, and one day she will just be my son. He will just be my son. He will just my son. He will no longer be my transgender son. And and so, like, sometimes, eventually this story will be so far in the rearview mirror, it will mean nothing. And that's kind of interesting to think about.

Casey O'Roarty 20:39
Yeah, and I'm curious, like, I'm curious about that is your son? He's probably eager. I don't know. I can't say, probably, I don't know, but is that a conversation? Like, I don't I'm not looking to be a transgender person. I'm just looking to be your son. It's, it's

Maureen Muldoon 20:55
interesting to watch him evolve into it. Like, when he first came out at Transgender he was like, rainbows, head to toe. I mean, everything was about being gay and how nobody got him and all the people who were gay. And, you know, it was like, all about, I was like, there are other really interesting things about you. I love that you're out and all of this, but there are other aspects of you that are also equally interesting. And then he kind of moved into just really being more of a boy and and so identifying as transgender is, I think, less and less important to him. You really. What really lights him up is when we walk into a store and someone says, Can I help you, sir? And like, I literally face light up, and I look at him and he's like, oh, you know it happened. And, I mean, that's, that's, he just wants to be acknowledged for how he sees himself.

Casey O'Roarty 21:47
Love that. Yeah, I love that. And it's, you know, and it tracks for that, you know, this adolescence is all about, you know, finding out who you are. And like you said, that's, that's one piece of who he is, but there's, you know, sounds like he's got so many other pieces, and what a gift for him to be an artist and to have kind of this built in vehicle for expression. I think so many kids, you know, I think when they don't have writing or painting or, you know, music to express. I think so much is unprocessed because of that, and so what a gift for him. Yeah, and I think

Maureen Muldoon 22:30
he couldn't, I think he couldn't really express the full breadth of his artistry without getting that initial major piece in place. I think that's why it really freed his voice. Because, I mean, as a transgender person, what I've come to find is like, you're not gonna want it, like get your license or think about your future if you don't see yourself as you see yourself in your future. So like, getting yourself correct helps to see a future for yourself, and I think it probably is tied to the fact that there is such a high suicide rate among transgender people. Is because if they're not fully you know, and completely in their truth, it can be very disorienting to be, to be not acknowledged, and to have to fight for your identity. I mean, I can't even imagine it, yeah.

Casey O'Roarty 23:28
How do you how do you sit with that suicide rate as mom, yeah.

Maureen Muldoon 23:35
I mean, we keep it really open, and my son does have anxiety, so there's always like, you know, but he, I will say that he's a really happy kid, knock on wood, and and he, you know, he has a few handful of good friends, and he has his art and his music, and he knows what his medicine is. And so it's good to know, like, that's what he needs. And he's also very different than me, like I am the person who, like, goes on stage and tells, you know, my heart on his knees. And he's like, you know, he calls himself like a healthcare like he could stay like Pandora, the pandemic did not affect him at all. Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 24:18
my daughter has a t shirt that says socially distant before it was cool.

Maureen Muldoon 24:24
That's basically him, but like so he knows himself and what he needs to have peace of mind. And so I think we're, we're aware of that. And, you know, bait, you know, I work with helping people to find greater peace of mind, so I get that part of it, yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 24:41
he picked, he picked mom. Well,

Maureen Muldoon 24:45
well,

Casey O'Roarty 24:50
yeah, well, and I, you know, a lot of my own personal and professional work, especially just right now, is around recognizing a. That we all are holding a narrative for our kids, whether we're conscious of it or not, even if it's just the most basic timeline other than this and then this, and then this, right, and more likely than not, the narrative that they live is not the same as the one we hold absolutely you know, sometimes I think like I think about my own experience, I was pretty easygoing with my you know, as a teenager, and I got into my own mischief, but I followed the narrative pretty well. I mean, I stretched into as far away as I could, stretch away from it under the gaze of my parents, but definitely in my own learning of being a mom, you know, it's almost like it's almost daily that I'm recognizing, like, oh, that's me holding on to a narrative. And how can I let go of that and be with the narrative that my children have for themselves? Yes,

Maureen Muldoon 25:56
yes. I, you know, even when I talked about my my other son, who's on the spectrum? Yeah, I noticed that I have and I, and I obviously still do this, but to identify him as a child on the spectrum, as opposed to just my son, Liam, who, you know, is great at computer games, and, you know, loves technology, like, Why do I decide what identifiers I bring forth about this child, and how do I box him into them by not acknowledging again, like the full breath of His being? And how would he want me to tell you about him? You know, I don't know if it would be. He's on the spectrum. I don't know if that would be his first choice. So I'm still becoming aware of the ways that I tell my narrative that isn't necessarily true, not necessarily true, but it's not necessarily helpful, and it's not the whole story.

Casey O'Roarty 26:53
Yeah, well, and I think it's so powerful, just, and the reason I like to talk about it is just, I think I feel like so many people are walking the planet not realizing that they're even holding a narrative. So I love to just kind of tease that out and then, you know, rather than just having it be us, like, taking it out and taking a look at it and deciding, like, oh, and recognizing, you know, like, what you just said about Liam, like, recognizing when, oh, I'm actually adding something here that maybe doesn't need

Maureen Muldoon 27:26
right? Know what you know, and you know what you don't know, but you don't know what you don't know. And when you don't know what you don't know, it's like a slap in the face. It's like a blind side, but it's a wake up call. It's like an invitation to, you know, breathe into the thing that's that's been a shadow, you know? I mean, definitely shadow work. So I Yeah, it's, it's not always fun, but it definitely leads to a greater conscious awareness, which is never a bad thing, right? It's fun, yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 27:58
yeah, it's not easy. It's not easy, but it's like, you know, I believe we we step into exactly what we're meant to step into. And so, yep, I just love that. So what do you think in your experience of the last few years, what do you noticing about parents who don't have transgender kids? What are you finding that they don't understand? I mean, that's kind of a loaded question as I ask. It didn't feel this big when I wrote it. What, like, what are the things that you're noticing? Uh,

Maureen Muldoon 28:32
yeah, well, I am noted. I'm personally noticing. And you know, this could be a different answer for anybody else. And also, I don't represent the whole conversation. This is my experience, but I am noticing a whole lot of compassion, a whole lot of acceptance, a whole lot of awareness. But I might be living in a bubble, you know, I also, you know, it's every once in a while I see a glimpse of fear, like there's, you know, situations around a trans child going to prom, you know, and what that picture will look like, and is that okay to post it on Facebook, and there's other parents and children involved involved. So it's like it is. I have to be very cautious around, you know, supporting and protecting my child and also having compassion for other people who just, it's not, it's just not on their spectrum of understanding. And I, you know, without making ourselves small like I can broach it with as much transparency and truth and integrity. And so there, there's, I think of the word gentleness, you know, I think that we're all gent, more gentle with each other, if you're Gen, if I can be gentle with you around things that you just don't understand, it will ensure that you might be gentle with my child when he's out in the world. And that's the best, you know, legacy I could hope. To leave is that we just get a little bit more compassionate and gentle with each other.

Casey O'Roarty 30:04
Yeah, hmm. And what a I, you know, I'm just listening to you, so I'm always listening and noticing, you know, connecting dots. Whenever I'm I'm hearing from somebody and hearing their story. And I love the collective nature in in what in our personal narratives, and I am really appreciating you know that your experience has forced you to kind of fine tune that idea that we can't always, that we can't see out of our children's eyes, and you get to have this experience, to be really present to that in a way that I think other people, you know, it's maybe more kind of tongue in cheek or, well, I was a teenager, so I know, and, you know, I can see that I know, like I'm just thinking about my own daughter, who, you know, temperamentally, were super different. And it's very difficult for me to see the world as an introvert sees the world. It's very difficult for me to see the world as someone who has, you know, clinical anxiety, sees the world and so to pause. And I think this is a lesson for everyone listening, no matter you know the details of their teenager's current situation, like, what happens when we let go of the idea that we know how our kids feel, and we just sit in, like, compassion and curiosity and openness, right? So that we can really receive what it is that they're sharing with us, right, right? And that feels like a spiritual endeavor in and of itself.

Maureen Muldoon 31:56
Yeah, absolutely. And it's, you know, it's just, it's just being present, and in the world of, you know, glorification of, you know, multitasking. I mean, I do think the pandemic has given us all a reason to pause, and so that has been one, I think, blessing, but, but, you know, on our normal mode of operation, I think we miss a lot when we're not, we're not really just present, you know. And things can get misinterpreted and and arsenals can be, you know, you know, restacked for the next war, over nothing, over absolutely nothing. So, so like keeping an open mind and keeping an open space to and listen like I hear my mouth saying, you know, things that I don't always practice.

Casey O'Roarty 32:47
I want to be

Maureen Muldoon 32:50
so present that I can count the freckles on my kid's face. But it's like, sometimes it's like, get out of the way. I need to get this done, you know. And so it's a dance. It's a practice. And as parents. I mean, God, who knew? Who knew we would be called to task in such a way? Who knew that our heart and then our hearts completely busted and shattered and put back together like who knew the emotional roller coaster that this thing would be? So it's like, I know the optimal idea it, and I also know that everyone is doing the best that they can and to continue to just try and really do the best

Unknown Speaker 33:27
that you can.

Casey O'Roarty 33:38
I am thinking about you mentioned living in a bubble. I also live in a bubble. I'm up in the super liberal, open minded Pacific Northwest, and I know that everyone who's listening is not necessarily in a bubble. So I would love to hear from you, just in your experience, and I know that you don't speak for all parents of transgender kids. But if you could give some what's the right word, just some thoughts on how the village could be more supportive of families with transgender kids, what would you what would that advice be?

Maureen Muldoon 34:19
Well, yeah, I guess, to not really, to not assume anything. To not assume that any one person is is an expert on the subject. To not assume that you already know that your learning has reached a finish line. You know, to to stay open and to to stay open, and to recognize that, you know, that we're all we're actually all moving through this conversation together. I mean, these are national decisions that are being made in regards to school and public bathrooms and laws, and that, you know, just like everything else, like we're better together, like nobody needs to be left off. Of us, like everybody there's, we're better together and that and that, though it might seem scary at first, or, you know, unconventional or even absolutely wrong, you know, judgment is not going to help anyone, specifically the judger. You know, you judge the world of judgment. And so like to, like, i The people you know, if you, if you, if you feel that way, it's going to be harder to invite you into getting curious. But that's what I would say. I would say, like, give yourself the gift of being curious instead of being right.

Casey O'Roarty 35:36
Oh my gosh, when we change the world, everyone willing to go there. Jeez, man, write that one down. Everyone

Maureen Muldoon 35:48
gift, and it is a gift that you give yourself, because as long as you're right, you're living in a world that's wrong. And who wants to live in that kind of a

Casey O'Roarty 35:55
world? Yeah? Yeah. Oh, I'm so glad to have this conversation with you is so you have this one woman show, and do you just like travel the country and put it on? How can we get you to come once you know, once you're allowed to leave?

Maureen Muldoon 36:13
Well, my whole docket was full from April to September, and I had shows from Los Angeles to New York that just melted. And, you know, this is just, you know, not a poor me story, because, like, this happened to every you know performer and everyone you know, so, um, so I'm, I'm sitting in the idea of, of curiosity, like, what, what is mine to do? And is this, is this done and ready for someone else to take up the mantle with it? Or is it still, you know, right now, it's on the back burner, and that's, I don't imagine putting it on video more than it's already been like, I don't, I don't know. I mean, I really don't know, in regards to sharing that conversation. But there are so many great organizations. There's the P flag for parents who have children who are coming out, and the national organization, you can find them basically, if you know, if you don't have one near you, start one. If this is something that's affecting your household, like, come out and be a leader and a voice for your children and for our children, so as for myself, like I don't know about the future of transparent love, although I really did love doing it, and I really did love the conversations. The best part of it was that I would do a show at a church or at a school, and then we would have the conversation afterwards, where everyone, again, got to share what they thought, what they feared, and what came up for them. And that really was, I mean, community conversation held in a compassionate place, just like so that was my favorite part. So, you know, we're still able to have those conversations, even if they're one at a time. Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 37:56
will you tell my listeners a little bit about the other things that you do and the other offers that you have going on right now, because I got real excited when I was on your website.

Maureen Muldoon 38:05
Sure, sure. I teach a course in miracles, and I teach it through a program called miracles live 365 it's a daily phone call that goes live twice a day, and we go through the workbook lessons of A Course in Miracles. If you're not familiar with course, in miracles, it's a program that helps you move from fear into love, and it's Christian in vernacular and masculine and pronoun, that can be a big hurdle for a lot of people, but if it's not, and if you're called to it, this would be a really fun thing to check out. I think we have some amazing teachers. I teach it on the early call, and then we had the second call as a variety of teachers. But it's my breath, it's my spiritual backbone, and I love it, so I love sharing it. I have writers groups and writers retreats that are live on the internet, so it's called right on and we have people sign up by the month, and we have retreats, so I'm on a retreat right now, which is super fun. And I have a bunch of other courses and programs that I teach through speakeasy spiritual community. So you can go to speakeasy spiritualcommunity.com and find out more about the other creative and spiritual programs that we offer.

Casey O'Roarty 39:20
Awesome. Thank you. In the context of all that we've talked about today, what does joyful courage mean to you? Maureen,

Maureen Muldoon 39:30
oh, wow, joyful courage means innocence. You know, where everyone's innocent, no one's guilty, everyone's allowed to take as much space as possible.

Casey O'Roarty 39:42
Oh, I love that.

Maureen Muldoon 39:44
Thank you.

Casey O'Roarty 39:51
Well, so excited to connect with you. So great to talk to you. Thank you so much for spending time with me today.

Maureen Muldoon 39:57
Oh, you're so welcome. Thank you. Thank.

Casey O'Roarty 40:05
Ah, thank you again for listening. Thank you again for listening. I so hope that you enjoyed that conversation. I know that I sure did. I loved having that conversation. I so appreciate you and all of the feedback that you provide me about how the show is landing for you again, feel free to join our communities on Facebook. Live in love with joyful courage, or the joyful courage for parents of teen groups are super safe, supportive and compassionate places where we share and support each other on our journeys and again to remind you it matters so much when you leave reviews on Apple podcasts, as more and more people search for shows that are meaningful to them, your reviews will get this show in front of new listeners. Check out joyful courage calm for those holiday offers that I mentioned and again, always so grateful that you choose to listen in. Remember that when things get rough, find your breath, ride it into your body, release the tension that you find there, climb to the balcony seat and know that everything is going to be okay.

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