Eps 252: An Honest Conversation with Rowan About Her Journey of Mental Health and Self Discovery

What does Joyful Courage mean to you?

To me, when I hear Joyful Courage and I put it into the context of mental health in teens, I think of having courage. Having the courage to choose joy when the circumstances are against you or things aren’t working out. Finding joy and being so courageous to chase after it and be joyful.

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Transcription

Casey O'Roarty 0:04
Music. Hello and welcome to the joyful courage podcast, a place where conscious parenting and conscious humaning Come to intersect and explode into a celebration of the messiness of all of it. My name is Casey awardee. I am your host. I am a positive discipline trainer, parent, coach and mom to two teenagers. It is my great honor to share with you here on the podcast, amazing guests and candid and vulnerable solo shows really hoping to support you in feeling seen and heard on your journey. Today's show is especially important to me. This is probably my favorite guest that I've had on. I am so excited to share with you my daughter Rowan, who is coming to talk about her experience with mental health and her school journey. Before we get started, I just want to give a special shout out to her. I wasn't sure how this was going to go, and the conversation that you're about to listen to was just so special and powerful and meaningful for me to record with her and Rowan, I just love you. I love who you have been a part of growing me into I'm so grateful to be your mom, and I'm really, really, really, really excited to share my daughter, Rowan, with you. Enjoy the show you.

Oh, my guest today is Rowan overdy. Rowan is my oldest child. She'll be 18 in January, and one of my biggest teachers of personal growth. As we all do, we learn who we are as parents through our relationships with our children, Rowan made me a mom, and she continues to influence who I am in the world as I navigate what it means to mother her. Rowan has been through her own journey of personal discovery. Over the past few years, she's maneuvered mental health challenges. She opted out of high school, completing her GED, and stepped into big responsibility just a few months ago while her dad and I were gone down in Seattle going through his cancer treatment. I am so honored that she is willing to come and share herself and her journey so candidly with you today. Hi, Rowan, welcome to the podcast. Hi,

Rowan O’Roarty 2:41
hi. How

Casey O'Roarty 2:43
does it feel to hear me share about you? Like that.

Rowan O’Roarty 2:47
It's crazy hearing it all in one paragraph, because I feel like it's happened over, like years and years and years. It hasn't been years and years and years, but it felt like years and years. It's crazy to hear that all

Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 3:03
the community was super excited when I shared that you'd be talking to me. They have lots of questions, mostly about your experience with anxiety and depression, but also your decision to get your GED. But before we start, I want to point out that Rowan is not the spokesperson for all teenagers. She can speak from her own perspective, but remember that your teen is having their own unique experience. So listen to what lands for you. All right. Rowan, let's start with some questions about anxiety and depression. So many kids, especially teens, are navigating this even more so since the pandemic started, yours showed up long before that, though you were a baby that loved the sling and never ventured too far from mom and dad. Looking back, I can see that being anxious was a part of your wiring. A few mamas want to know, when did you become aware of it, and when did you realize that what you were experiencing was anxiety?

Rowan O’Roarty 4:06
Well, the difference between me being I was aware of it way before I knew that it was anxiety. It wasn't until, like high school that I realized it was anxiety, anxiety. But way before that, I would notice myself going over and over again in my head, at restaurants, my order before the waiter would come to take it, and I would get really nervous, and I would like practice what I was gonna say in my head. I would repeat it. I'd repeatedly look at the menu to make sure I knew what I wanted, because the thought of messing up in front of someone, or like, I don't know, being embarrassed, was mortifying to me. So that's where it first manifested, or where I noticed it. I'm also an. Observer, and I can tell that, you know, the people around me weren't having trouble with that, or weren't thinking about it too much. Um, but in high school, I would be anxious to, like, get up from my chair and move around the classroom sometimes, because I just have never liked the idea of people paying too much attention to me or looking at me for too long, in case I, like, do something embarrassing or weird or whatever, I've always just kind of hated, like, unwanted attention. Always, like, like, for example, one time I went to Petco and was getting, like, some cat litter, and I was doing the wrong thing. I was like, I thought I could refill this bucket, but I couldn't. And a worker came up to me, and I was just so, like, I overly apologized so much. Like, I'm sure she was like, oh my god, it's okay. But I was just like, I'm so so sorry. Oh my gosh. Like, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry. I was so embarrassed. And I was like, telling myself. In my head, I was like, oh my god, ah. Like, why did I do that? But you know, it wasn't, like, actually a big deal at all, but in my head, it really was. And like any attention, sometimes when I'm in the anxious mind, any attention feels like bad attention, even like singing happy birthdays in restaurants, I would literally Yeah, always Yeah. Not want that.

Casey O'Roarty 6:34
Do you remember when you were in elementary school? Like I remember at the start of the school year in elementary school, you would have the funny little ticks sometimes, like snapping your fingers near your ears, or when you did the one where you'd go and you'd like your fingers near your mouth, and you'd kind of blow on them, and they would just kind of show up in the middle of you telling us a story. I

Rowan O’Roarty 6:56
think, I think remember that, yeah, I think right now I'm thinking about it, I think it was like me trying to do something that would make it feel like reality. Maybe I don't know that just came to my

Casey O'Roarty 7:09
head. But do you remember it like, like the beginning of the school year, new classroom? Would you feel as a little girl? Did you feel like, awkward, insecure, nervous in elementary school.

Rowan O’Roarty 7:22
I don't know. I don't remember. You don't remember. Okay.

Casey O'Roarty 7:25
Another parent asked, what were some things we did, like me and daddy, that helped you cope with anxiety and depression, and well, let's just stick with anxiety. What were some things that we did that helped you cope with your anxiety, and what did we do that made it worse?

Rowan O’Roarty 7:42
I'm gonna start with what made it worse? Okay, okay, um, well, you didn't really get it in the beginning, um, and like, you know, you don't have mental health problems. Dad doesn't really have anxiety. He's, you know, an introvert, but you guys didn't really know anxiety, and can I talk about depression too? Yeah, totally. And you didn't understand depression either. And so it was hard to cope with it and understand it for myself when the people around me didn't understand it like, for example, like being you saying, like, just do this thing. Yeah, just do it. It's not a big deal. Just nobody's looking, nobody cares. Just do it. And it just wasn't like that in my head. It was a whole other thing that wasn't a useful pep talk. No, it was not, it wasn't even a pep talk to me, but the things that helped were you educating yourself on it, and when we did dialectical behavioral therapy together, I feel like you learned a lot of things, And so did I. And yeah, you being willing to learn about what was going on with me so that you could come to a place that was helping me instead of hurting me.

Casey O'Roarty 9:15
That's a really interesting statement. And like as the parent listening, you know, we often listeners. You'll hear me say, like, let's be helpful, not hurtful, and recognizing that sometimes, when I was doing my best to be there for you, Rowan, trying to be helpful, it was actually hurtful. It's a lot to hold. There's a lot like, I'm just noticing, even right now, there's like, a lot of guilt and stuff that kind of comes to the surface, and I just want to acknowledge that and remember, you know, in my own practice, it's a letting go and a recognizing that I was doing the best I could with the tools I have, and so carrying on in this conversation. I also want parents. To remember. You know, this isn't about it's never about making you feel bad. It's about awareness and learning and then pivoting to do better when you know better. Yeah. And

Rowan O’Roarty 10:12
also, like you knew once you knew that the tools you had weren't the tools you learned new tools, right? Which is what you should do, right?

Casey O'Roarty 10:21
Yeah. And sometimes I still lean on those old tools. Usually, if I'm overwhelmed and I try to acknowledge that, right, yeah, or I'll yeah, or you'll point it out, yeah. So nice. What about panic attack? What was your experience of panic attacks? How did they show up, and how have you learn to navigate them.

Rowan O’Roarty 10:43
Panic attacks, for me, only showed up in the past, like year, really like full body panic attacks, and it felt like they came out of nowhere. I haven't had a panic attack for a while, which is good um, my anxiety really started to manifest and just become, I feel like my pant panic attacks were, um, made out of anxiety that I just could not hold in anymore. I was just so anxious. It had to be let out somehow. They were super bad. They were really bad panic attacks. And I would, like, throw up every time I would feel like I was dying, and then it would never end. And it was just like the most randomest things that would set me off, like if I smelled a certain smell, and remembered that, like last time I smelled that smell, I was nervous, it would trigger my nervous system to kind of be super, super nervous, and I would go into a panic attack. So for a while there anything could kind of trigger me to be panicked. And for like, the past year, whenever I've gotten nervous, you know, nervousness and excitement can feel the same way. And it wasn't until a few months ago that I found my therapist that I really love and rely on, and she told me, like, you could just, you could be feeling excited and, like, tell yourself that you're feeling excited in those moments. And that helped a lot differentiating between the two emotions, because the nervousness felt scary to me, but being excited is a good thing.

Casey O'Roarty 12:39
Yeah, so is. Can I ask you a question about that? So is it that you learn? So first it's awareness, like, okay, both of these emotions feel the same inside my body, and then that next step of learning how to recognize you're there. And then, is it a decision, like, oh, well, maybe I'm excited and not nervous, and I don't have to be scared about how I feel right now is or what? How does it play out?

Rowan O’Roarty 13:00
Well, yeah, so like, for example, I would be going to my boyfriend's house, and my heart would be beating fast, and I would tell myself in my head, oh my god, I'm so nervous. Oh my god. And I would be, like, on the verge of panicking because I was nervous, but with the help of my therapist, I was, I've been able to kind of say, oh my, oh, my heart's beating fast. I'm so excited to see him. I'm so excited to be there. Like, take some deep breaths. I'm excited. Woo hoo. And just kind of calm myself down. But yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 13:37
yeah, because does your when you're feeling the feeling and and it's a nervousness and the fear shows up. Does it also come with, like a storyline, like in the example you just gave of going to see Jared? Is it like I'm nervous? What if he doesn't, like, gives it then, does it? Is it followed by, like, thoughts of gloom and doom or no, it's just like I'm just nervous, nervous, nervous. Some

Rowan O’Roarty 14:04
people the that's what follows. It is the gloom thoughts. But for me, it's like it was just, I'm not gonna be able to stop feeling nervous right now. I'm just gonna have a panic attack, and then he's gonna have to calm me down, okay? Or whatever. Yeah, I knew that my I couldn't really slowed down my panic attacks.

Casey O'Roarty 14:22
Okay, so it was the sensation that was like, oh gosh, if this sensation is going to take over. And, okay, yeah. And how can when you think about kids, because there are kids out there and panic attacks are real. And I really want parents to hear this, because I think a lot of times we slide into this idea that our teens are just trying to get attention or manipulate us, and it's just not true, is it? No,

Rowan O’Roarty 14:49
and that's very I want to say disrespectful. Yeah, of parents to think that about their kids, because mental health is real and panic. Attacks are very, very real.

Casey O'Roarty 15:02
Yeah, yeah. So what are some things that parents can do in the moment that would be helpful? And maybe it's like, just don't do anything, shut

Rowan O’Roarty 15:12
your mouth. Some kids, I know some people who want to be alone during panic attacks. There's some people, and if you don't really know what to the right things to say, it might be best to leave them alone. But if you've like, if you know what, what could calm them down that would help? Or, like, I remember whenever you were around and I was panicky, like you would bring me water or just sit with me, or just be there. So I knew that if I died during my panic attack, you would be there, and maybe I wouldn't die for very long, or something back to hell. Yeah.

Casey O'Roarty 15:53
Well, and I wonder too. I think that we had conversations about this, but I wonder about, you know, because I often in my work talk about proactive conversations. So would you suggest like, Hey, babe, I know that sometimes you have panic attacks, and I'm wondering what, what do you want me to do in those moments? Do you think that that's a good thing for parents to do? Yeah,

Rowan O’Roarty 16:19
I do if you think, if you know that your child is having panic attacks, I think that's a good conversation to have with them. Or like, what do you need from me in the moment?

Unknown Speaker 16:31
What's helpful and then

Rowan O’Roarty 16:33
do and then do it. Yeah, don't. Don't do what you think you should do. Do what they say they want you to do. Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 16:38
yeah. Oof, that's a good one too, because I think I'm not alone thinking that I know all the answers. Can

you talk a little bit about depression? Because you had, you have had some really dark days, days where I have felt the need to make a really direct connection with you around making sure that you don't want to hurt yourself. What does it feel like when you're in that darkness,

Rowan O’Roarty 17:15
the very darkness the most darkness, feels like being at the bottom of a lake and knowing how to swim but not wanting to swim out, like not having the energy or being so weighed down. It's just better to stay there, not knowing where to go, and just kind of being there. And there was times when I wanted to just run away from it, like run away from home, as if it would, like solve my problems, because I thought that it would solve my problems moving from Monroe to Bellingham. But obviously it didn't. Mental Health follows you where you go. And then I know a lot of people think that moving away from somewhere will change your stuff, but it goes with you. Yeah, and depression was like an outline of myself that like was a version of me, but not me, and was making me feel weighed down and like, sunken into myself. I don't know. Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 18:25
did you What did it feel like on those days when I did, when I was explicit and would ask you, like, are you? I

Rowan O’Roarty 18:33
could see the fear in your eyes when you asked me that. And I, I mean, I've never thought about hurting myself, so it was always super easy and quick to see reassure you and know that you needed to be reassured.

Casey O'Roarty 18:45
Yeah, and I just want to share with all of you, like my experience of that. You know, if anyone all the people that are listening, who know that their kids are struggling with, you know, some type of of depression, and how scary that is, and it feels like, I like we can protect our, you know, when they're little, and we can keep them out of the street, and we can make them wear

Rowan O’Roarty 19:12
a coat and protect them from their own mind, I

Casey O'Roarty 19:15
know. And so it's very hopeless, and it's a feeling of just like hopelessness, and, you know, useless. I just felt so useless. So I always appreciated Rowan in those moments, like I felt like our souls were speaking to each other, like I'd look at you and I'd be like, do you want to hurt yourself? And then the just the way that you were able to respond to me in those moments, more than I don't even know how you would what you would say, but the energy that you would say it with was like, I'm good, Mom, I'm just not doing so good right now. Yeah, you know. And that was heavy, but reassuring.

Rowan O’Roarty 19:59
Yeah. Yeah, yeah,

Unknown Speaker 20:00
um,

Casey O'Roarty 20:04
what about so? What again? So, like we were talking about with anxiety, what were the things when we're talking about depression? What are some things that were helpful for you? Because, you know, it's been a while since you've been super dark. Yeah, and what? What has been helpful? What's helped you?

Rowan O’Roarty 20:29
Well, depression is hard, I know, for parents too, because while you're in it, there's nothing really that your parent or that you can say to your kids to make it better. It's not like a wound that you can heal. It's deeper than that. The things that were helpful was finding a good therapist that understood me and that I got along with, and that, you know, I felt comfortable with and doing DBT therapy definitely helped. I like, don't get nearly, nearly, nearly as anxious as I ever have gotten, which is crazy, and I think that's because of therapy and DBT. And I feel like, you know, just as much as I do, so you're kind, you're there for me too. And the things also, like, we learned a lot of skills in DBT, and one of those was accumulating positives, which is just like having things that you can do to make yourself feel good in your pocket, that you can turn to when you're set like, really, really sad, and know that it'll comfort you and make you feel nice.

Casey O'Roarty 21:52
And is that also, like, those are kind of in the moment, like I'm having a hard time, so I'm gonna do, I'm gonna accumulate some positives. Is it also, you know, just like having a routine of accumulating positives even when things are going okay, is that a

Rowan O’Roarty 22:10
I think it's harder to accumulate positives when you're not okay, right? So when you are, yeah, doing stuff

Casey O'Roarty 22:18
to maintain that balance, yeah, and just everybody who's listening. So Rowan is referencing DBT. And if you're in the joyful courage for parents of teens group, you've seen me talk about DBT a lot. Dialectic behavioral therapy, when done with fidelity, is a process where groups of teens and their caregivers meet weekly in kind of a workshop setting, and learn tools and skills and do a lot of sharing. And then the teenagers also have a DBT therapist that they work with once a week. So it's pretty, I mean, it's

Rowan O’Roarty 22:56
pretty in therapy twice a week for like seven months, six months, six months, which,

Casey O'Roarty 23:02
by the way, when I told Rowan, hey, we're gonna do this thing for six months, I was really nervous that she was gonna say, Oh, hell no. I

Rowan O’Roarty 23:13
was kind of like, wow, okay,

Casey O'Roarty 23:17
but it was a game changer.

Rowan O’Roarty 23:18
Yeah.

Casey O'Roarty 23:19
How did the group setting I'm going off script right now. How did the group setting feel for you?

Rowan O’Roarty 23:25
It was good. I liked it was like a journey that we were all taking together. And I saw the way the people in the group changed too. And at the end, like we all said little things about each other, and everybody saw, like everybody's growth, which was really cool, because you can't always see your own growth, but hearing someone tell you, like that you're a different person than you were, is kind of crazy. Yeah,

Speaker 1 23:53
do you feel so sometimes adults will

Casey O'Roarty 23:57
say that teenagers think that they're the only ones going through what they're going through was your did you feel before DBT, did you feel like no one else is going through what I'm going through? Did you feel that?

Rowan O’Roarty 24:11
I think adults say that a lot, but teenagers say that because it feels lonely, and I obviously I knew that I wasn't the only one going through what I was going through, but it is lonely. Okay,

Casey O'Roarty 24:29
so, yeah, so I mean, lots of feelings coming up for me as I hear that, um, the last six or seven months, I've seen you really step in and play an active role in your mental well being. So we did that group, DBT program, and you found Annie, The Greatest Therapist on earth, by the way, everyone Annie was not Ron's first therapist. There were a whole handful of gals. Skills that she three, okay, not but three that she would go begrudgingly to talk to and didn't connect. And so we love Annie. What was it that shifted you into recognizing that you were really the only one that could help change your experience. I

Rowan O’Roarty 25:21
always knew it was up to me, but for a while I just kind of threw that away and was like, Screw it. I'm just gonna feel this for a while, because it just it felt too heavy on my shoulders, that it was all up to me, and all I could do for a while was go through the motions, even at the beginning of DBT, like I wasn't doing the homework, like I was at the end, I was just going through the motions. I was showing up and being there, um, but as therapy healed me, I became more of an active participant in helping myself, like as therapy took some of the load off of my shoulders, I could kind of do more for myself,

Casey O'Roarty 26:15
recognizing that it's your work to do. But did you Is there a space too for knowing that you have rock solid support? Does that help take the load off too?

Rowan O’Roarty 26:28
No, it didn't for me, because, like, if to me, I thought, like, oh, people I like, I knew, like, people were there for me, blah, blah, blah. But it's internal, so it's not really something that can be cured with support, right? Yeah, it's nice though. Okay, don't worry. It's lovely. No, yeah, it makes you feel less alone, but it's like,

Casey O'Roarty 26:58
it's still your work. Yeah, yeah, as you look back on the last few years and your mental health journey, what are you grateful for and what have you learned about yourself?

Rowan O’Roarty 27:09
I'm grateful that I survived it, not that I thought I wasn't going to, but that I'm through it because I didn't know if it would end. Well, it hasn't really ended, but, like, subdued? Is that the right word subtle? I don't think that's maybe, I don't know. Yeah, it's quiet. Yeah, yeah. And so I'm really grateful for that. And I've learned that in the mental health, journey is not linear, and I'm grateful that you took the time to hear me and see me where I was and find me the help that I needed, even if I didn't want it. It was I'm very grateful for that, because some kids don't have that from their parents, and I think they should, and I've learned that nothing lasts forever, even when it feels so absolute that it will things change, and you change over time.

Casey O'Roarty 28:15
Yeah, that's powerful, yeah. I mean, I think even you parents that are listening, and if things are really hard with your kids, that is a powerful statement from Rowan right there. Like things change. Things are temporary. Nothing stays the same, so, but

Rowan O’Roarty 28:31
you have to put the work in for things to change. Like you can just sit there and things will change for you,

Casey O'Roarty 28:37
right, right? But remembering that you know what is alive today is will be different in three months or six months or seven months, especially when you're doing the work of helping yourself and helping you know, and and staying the course for your kids, you know. Because there were definitely times where I just wanted to, I would have this vision of, like, the Olden, like some old movies, when people would get kind of hysterical or crazy, the characters would like, smack, smack, smack. Would like, slap them across the face and hold their shoulders and say, Get a hold of yourself. And I totally had visions of like, oh my god, I just want to slap her and be like, get

Rowan O’Roarty 29:19
it together. You

Casey O'Roarty 29:20
know, which, of course, wouldn't have been useful, nor was it.

Rowan O’Roarty 29:24
Probably what I just added to the weight on my shoulders would

Casey O'Roarty 29:28
have made it worse. Yeah, and not to say everyone listening that I was there were plenty of times where it did get the better of me and I my fear and my lack of feeling of control or that I could protect Rowan, did not, you know, I did not show up

Rowan O’Roarty 29:48
well, but there was also times where you showed up really well. Thanks,

Casey O'Roarty 29:52
Rowan, yeah, thank you for that. But I just, you know, it's, it's not about being perfect, it's about making progress. Dress and, you know, cleaning it up when you make a mistake and make it right and reconnect and stay in relationship. Do you feel like time and maturity has

Rowan O’Roarty 30:08
played a role at all? Um,

I don't know. I think it has to do more with me being ready to heal myself, but so time, yeah, yeah.

Casey O'Roarty 30:25
It'll be interesting to see when we're look when we're, you know, five years out 10 years out

Rowan O’Roarty 30:29
of 20 back, yeah, yeah.

Casey O'Roarty 30:32
So school now, you had all of these mental health issues come up parallel to moving into high school, which is a crazy enough experience on its own for teens, let alone teens who are also struggling with severe because I would say you had, you know, anxiety is a severe, you Know, severe level of anxiety and depression. You did your freshman year in person, right at the local high school. You'd go to school every day. Freshman year was probably the most challenging year for our relationship. I would say, I remember you not really wanting from like, the

Rowan O’Roarty 31:18
first day I changed,

Casey O'Roarty 31:21
not wanting to have anything to do with us, and I, of course, took it personally. It triggered all sorts of my own stuff, and often I would then come from a place like I mentioned a minute ago, of hurt and desperation. You were also engaging in some risky behavior. Can you talk a little bit about navigating high school that year and just the choices that you were making?

Rowan O’Roarty 31:51
Yeah, high school sucked. I was less of myself that year than I've ever been. Like immediately going into high school, I felt like I had to be somebody at school, like somebody that I that it wasn't that wasn't necessarily natural of me to be. I would wake up every morning and put on a whole face of makeup, and straighten my hair pin straight, and spend so long picking out an outfit that I would like make myself late even after waking up at 5am yeah, it was exhausting, brutal. Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 32:35
it was brutal, and it was hard to like as an outsider looking in, like I would, you know, want to say, like, Hey, you're good, and that would just piss you off, yeah?

Rowan O’Roarty 32:50
Because I felt like that's who I I didn't know who I was, but I felt like that was who I should be.

Casey O'Roarty 32:58
I was supposed to be, yeah? Or was, I

Rowan O’Roarty 33:01
mean, everybody, not everybody, but most of the girls in high school looked the same. They all made their faces up in the morning, and, you know, did all this stuff, but and I and just like, subconsciously, did it. I didn't know who I was at all, and I felt like, since, like, I felt like you didn't either, since I didn't so I got like, you know, angry at you when you would say that, because it's like, you don't know me, I don't know me, yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 33:35
yeah, but that's not what you would say. It would just be, just get out, get away from me. Yeah, well, it was interesting, because, you're right, like, we were, like, what happened to Rowan? Where did Rowan go? Because

Rowan O’Roarty 33:46
I was lost, yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 33:47
oh, babe. And you were, you know, are we gonna talk about the risky behaviors? Sure. So vaping showed up freshman year. Um, I would one way that we did connect was you hated the school bus, and I realized that if no other time in the day that 10 minute drive to school was a time where I could catch you in a little bit of lightness most of the time, and feel connected, and we'd stop and get a coffee drink for you not realizing that I was actually contributing to

Rowan O’Roarty 34:26
addiction, pretty

Casey O'Roarty 34:28
severe caffeine addiction. Yeah. Can you talk a little bit about what was what you were doing at school?

Rowan O’Roarty 34:33
I was drinking caffeine and vaping in the bathroom, people, yeah, and I was not doing homework. And I had a really smart friend that I had five out of six periods with that would like, give me the answers, and I would just like, you know, glide, glide through the day and be mad at everybody.

Casey O'Roarty 34:57
And that was coping, yeah. Yeah, that was coping 10th grade. You opted into online school. I remember you coming home from ninth grade and just saying, I am not going back to that place. And I really was like, Well, what about this other high school? Like, you could go to a different high school, maybe it's the High School, and you were

Rowan O’Roarty 35:14
it was high school, just high school, yeah. And also the friend that I talked about she was opting into online school, and I She kind of, even though I wasn't in check, she kept me as much in check as I could be, and I couldn't picture myself going back to school, like even going to school without her there to keep me sane or something, having

Casey O'Roarty 35:39
that friend, yeah, you wanted out. And I remember that summer feeling so torn and just kind of like holding it as a possibility, but also holding the possibility that you'd be like, You know what, Mom, I'm good, I can go back to school. And all summer long, you were like, Did you sign me up yet? Sign me up yet? And then finally, like, pretty late in August, we did, and I was, you know, people have asked, you know, how what was that like for you? And it was kind of the same as when you completely opted out. It was, you know, my internal conversations were, am I enabling her anxiety? Am I doing her a disservice, of taking her out of this environment. Am I? Like, it was really just a spin out in my mind, like, what am I what is the right thing to do? What is the best thing to do for my child? And really not having any answers, and I've told you this before, but your confidence in like, No, this is what I want to do. Here's the website. Sign me up. Your con like your resolve was. I just said, okay, you know what? Let's do it. We're doing it. And what did you and then that year, 10th grade, there was, there was a reset for you. It did feel like, you know, some of this external angst and feeling of being lost was kind of cracked open, and it was like our our girl was back. We got glimpses of our girl being back. What was your experience of that year?

Rowan O’Roarty 37:15
Well, the online school that I did didn't like people didn't have to show their faces, so I didn't. I didn't feel like I needed to get all dressed up every day, so I didn't. And it became like I like, would not get made up, and that somehow like in that I found, like, less pressure, less stress, and I started to do, like, try new things that I had some sort of interest in, like, just trying to figure out who I was. Like, I tried guitar, I tried piano, I tried all sorts of stuff, um, like I was a person outside of high school, and I felt like I couldn't be a person in high school. I felt like I just had to be a girl everybody else was,

Casey O'Roarty 38:19
did you and that year too, just to catch everybody up, is the year that we decided to move. So there was some hopefulness too, right? Like, I get to get out of here. I know I was excited. And then there was planning for ahead. Like, not, you know, you coming to Whatcom Community College, yeah, running start. Yeah, which Running Start for anyone who doesn't live in the state of Washington is basically finishing high school at the community college while also earning your AA. And Rowan was really excited about that. And three weeks in, everything came crashing down. Will you talk a little bit about that? Because we moved up here, and I could, you know, there was, it was really tough as far as, like, how to meet the people and,

Rowan O’Roarty 39:08
yeah, I'm not a meet the people person like my brother is. I'm not. And before I started school, school started at the end of September, and before I started, I had gotten a job as, like a a trainee hostess in a in a local restaurant. And it just like my anxiety was the worst it's ever been. My anxiety, like thrived. There it was, like, really bad. So I was going to school while also feeling super stressed about, like, I would think about, oh, in two days, and like, four hours I have to go to work and ah, like, I don't want and I would like do nothing for two hours before I go to work. So I could, like, prepare. Her myself. But I mean, being in school was fine. I was anxious in between classes and going like in the unstructured time, yeah, and I was anxious going to classes and walking around in front of people. I made a friend. I mean, I'm sociable when I force myself to be, and I can force myself to talk to people, but it was all just building up inside me, and it was too much to handle. It was job stress, and like being living somewhere new stress and, like all of it, and so one day i i slept in and didn't go to school and I didn't go back. Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 40:58
it was intense, and I was out of town. You just sent me a text, and you just said, I'm done.

Rowan O’Roarty 41:03
Did I yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 41:04
I was in Atlanta. I was like, can we talk about this when we get home? And you just texted back, we can talk? Well, you might. I don't know if you said yes or no, but you were like, it's done. Yeah,

Rowan O’Roarty 41:14
I've always been very sure about my decisions with school, about online school, and about I was sure about going to running star, and then I was sure about not doing any more of that kind of schooling. Because I, I mean, we're going to talk about this a little bit later, that I'm going to to beauty school, but that's something that I am excited for, and I know that I will continue to be excited for when I'm in it, because I'll be learning everything that I'll be learning is, like, basically training for the job that I go, Yeah, and like, it's always kind of just kind of felt a little pointless the school and like, The random I took very random college classes, yeah.

Casey O'Roarty 42:03
Do you? So you had this job that was sending you over the edge, which you couldn't really articulate that to us. No, you haven't really spoken to it. And you were, you weren't eating, and that was starting to become a thing, a kind of pretty scary thing, right? Can you talk about, will you talk about that, how your anxiety played into your your ability to feed yourself?

Rowan O’Roarty 42:30
Yeah, it was. I can't really think about when it I've no recollection of how it started or how it became anxiety not letting me eat, but it became a thing where I just wasn't hungry, or I just was too anxious to eat, or I knew that I would I was just too nervous I was eating, but it wasn't, you know, as much as a normal person would

Casey O'Roarty 43:05
eat, yeah, and even talking about it was would fill you with anxiety. And that was, you were in clear distress. As you were making the decision to leave school. You were in some heavy distress, and you were hurting, and you needed more help than I knew how to give you. I was really struggling about knowing what to do, like the summer before with online school, that was stressful. But then you you know, saying I'm done with this, I'm opting out, you know, yes, high school, that experience wasn't working for you, but also knowing this layer of mental health was also a huge barrier in getting in your way. I was just like, what you know, because I'm speaking into this, because the community, you know, there was somebody that asked, like, how did you sit with that? Because some people, you know, it's like, well, you can't let the anxiety win. Like, you can't let the mental health win. And what about it was debilitating. Yeah, it was debilitating. And I just want everyone to understand, like, this wasn't a light. It wasn't like, Okay, you do? You Rowan, I

Rowan O’Roarty 44:16
had to convince you. Yeah, it was a like, Dad got it faster than you did, not saying it's bad thing, but like, I decided, and then I once, I decided, I was like, I'm doing this. And nobody, absolutely nobody, can change my mind. And dad stuck with me, and I kind of told you, you know, like times are changing, and lots of jobs except a GED person, not a graduate, but GED certificate. And like, to me, I was like, it's not as big of a deal as you think. Because, to me, it was just what. I had to do it was, what was the best thing for me? Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 45:06
how did it make you feel that it was, you know, feeling my worry and my distress over it? Well,

Rowan O’Roarty 45:13
I felt annoyed sometimes because I knew that I know your generation of parents think that a GED is less than a high school diploma, and I just didn't see it that way. I just never saw it that way. I just like, I mean, I felt like I was graduating early, I didn't feel like I was dropping out or like I was missing something, because I didn't want to be there. I didn't there was nothing for me to miss, yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 45:53
which is an interesting statement, and then to remember, because what you also knew about me, because I would talk about all the time as the like, high school was the time of your life, right? Not the not the peak everyone, but it was good time we got college too. Yeah, yeah, those were good times in

Rowan O’Roarty 46:13
my life. And you were also very different from me. Yeah, we

Casey O'Roarty 46:17
have very different temperaments. How would you describe me?

Rowan O’Roarty 46:20
I would describe you as like, a cartoon sunshine walking around high school, like, giving thumbs ups and like, Hey everybody, I'm here. Like, you know, doing all the things. Yes, I know. Like, that's how I see you going to school. And then there was me, like, with my head down, like me, like not wanting to be there, not wanting to participate in anything the school did were just very different. And I knew that high school was a great time for you, and I also knew that it just would never be a great time for me. So I just wanted to get it done with Yeah, and get the conversation like I wanted to move on, right? Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 47:04
so you did end up opting out. You had to go to the local high school where

Rowan O’Roarty 47:08
there's a nightmare. Yeah, talk about that. God. We had to meet with the principal to do know our family. Yeah, she didn't know me at all. It was the first time she's ever seen me. And we had to go there so I could officially drop out, so I could start doing GED stuff. And we met with her. She's like, this older lady. And I was like, Oh, great. She's a great principal, maybe. But she was just saying everything under the moon, except for me dropping out. She was like, you could do this. You could do this. Or, like, have you even thought this through? Or whatever? I was like, I was like, this lady, and I don't do good with talking to authority. I would probably tear up, and I probably almost did, but my mom totally backed me up. And she was like, no, like, this is what she wants to do, yeah, this is what we're doing. Yes.

Casey O'Roarty 48:02
We just need the signature. Yeah. Like,

Rowan O’Roarty 48:04
shut up lady, give me your signature well. And I remember

Casey O'Roarty 48:06
feeling like I could feel your experience. I could feel you just like under attack. And I also recognize that that's, I mean, a high school principal is gonna want to do everything they can to keep a kid in school and, of course, but she didn't know who we were.

Rowan O’Roarty 48:23
And it wasn't a bad thing. And people talk about it like it's a bad thing dropping out of school or getting a GED, but it wasn't. It was like, the light at the end of the tunnel. It wasn't a bad thing. It wasn't like, Oh man, I couldn't do high school. Like, oh man. It was like, yes, a different option. I get to be done. Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 48:47
well, and I think too, something that the adults believe, and something that happens over time that you can't really articulate until you're having your own realization about it is, you know, you can't always see the big picture until you're down the road a little further to know. And I know, for me, you know, it's gonna be my hope every step of the way that you are like, that was the best decision. That was the best decision. And, you know, I think all the parents hope, like, oh gosh, I don't want to get to a place where my kids, like you could have pushed harder, or you could have you know that that's a real it's a real thing.

Rowan O’Roarty 49:30
I mean, from my perspective, if I like seeing into my future, and you've asked me this, like, what if in the future you regret it or something, and to me, like, what would I have regretted? Like, what would I have wanted to do that I didn't, I didn't want to be in high school. I'm not gonna have grown up and be this such a different person that I'm like, Oh yeah, I should have really done High School. It would have been a great class. Yeah? Like, come on, that is. Not me, no way. And I mean, like talking like, why would I regret it honestly, is what I have always been thinking well. And

Casey O'Roarty 50:09
something that's reassuring to me too, is, as you get older and get clearer and make the turns and the pivots that we all do, you know you're there's it's not like there's a time in our life where we no longer can do what we need to do to create the life that we want, you know. I mean, I've had many a pivot in my life and, and I think that, you know, for my generation, generation X, but especially for, you know, the generation X's parents, it was, you know, you go to school and you get a job, and that's your job for 40 years, until you retire, and blah, blah, blah, and then for those of us, Gen Xers, a lot of us do a lot of pivoting. And I think for your generation, Rowan, it's a it's, you know, I think you kids are across, like all across the board, and you're gonna make the life that you want. And I you know, you've always known. You've always been I, you know, for at one point it was like, wow, there's this stubborn streak around Rowan. But it's not, it's not stubborn. It's really you just being clear and as you're as you heal through your mental health journey and you continue to make choices for yourself. I still there's always been this through line for you of clarity that I'm learning over time that I can trust for you anyway. Side note, you did end up, so you opted out last fall. You had a few months that were pretty bleak.

Rowan O’Roarty 51:45
I Yeah, after I dropped out, I pretty much took like five months, I'd say it was five months you wanted it to be killed, yeah, yeah, where I did nothing, and I was just kind of surviving and walking around half alive, yeah, yeah, and make you eat as much as Yeah, she would watch me eat. There was a point where she would make my meal, sit me down and watch me eat. We had fights over food, but I couldn't do I mean, I dropped out of school not to immediately study more and work on some tests. Yeah. Like, I needed time to heal a little bit, and so like, five months after, I ended up opting out, that's when I started to really look my GED test in the eyes and be like, Okay, you fucker. I'm gonna get you done.

Casey O'Roarty 52:44
Yeah, and you, you started working on your tests. You passed two before covid without studying for either of them, right? That was one of the parents. Was like, what was the studying? Like? Non

Unknown Speaker 52:55
existent. Yeah, I

Casey O'Roarty 52:57
don't know. A lot of faith in the GED. Well, let

Rowan O’Roarty 52:59
me say, Okay, what I say, Yeah, I have a friend who I've been friends with since I was in like, second grade, who took her GED test way before I did. And I saw her one day, like, while I was getting ready for my test. And I, you know, I could just ask her all the questions about it, because she took all of them and passed all of them. And she was like, Oh, it's a breeze, like, but I asked her about the test and everything, and she was like, Oh, my God. She knew how my brain worked. And she was like, I didn't study at all. I just took them all and it was just so, like, generalized questions and you'll be fine. And I was like, okay, so I didn't study for the language arts one because I'm I love language arts and the math one, I didn't study for either. And I'm glad I took it before covid, because I have no idea if I could take it. I could not take it right now and pass why? Because math. Cuz

Casey O'Roarty 53:59
math. Okay, so just getting it over,

Rowan O’Roarty 54:03
yeah, yeah, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then after covid, when the testing centers opened up, I did. My mom bought flashcards. A lot of them. I love bulky stuff, yeah, she pushed them on me a lot. But we had, like, Family Study nights where she would we would study, like, yeah, the science ones. And then for my social studies test, I just, kind of, we paid for practice tests, and I just took them. And I felt confident after taking the practice test, because the website told me you passed the practice test, you passed the test. So I went in and took it, and I passed it, and I had my GED,

Casey O'Roarty 54:46
yeah, so we had a deal that I would pay for the first round of tests, but if she didn't pass, she'd have to pay for any makeup tests that she needed to do. And because I was sitting in judgment, I was. Sitting in the fact that I wasn't seeing you study, and what does this mean? And how are you gonna do? And like, I'm

Rowan O’Roarty 55:06
Judging You thought I was. Yeah, you're like, Oh, she dropped out of school. She's not smart anymore. All those years of school are nothing.

Casey O'Roarty 55:15
And you proved me wrong. You proved me wrong. So you completed all the tests. Will you share about what your plans are now? Yes,

Rowan O’Roarty 55:20
I'm going to esthetician school in April, which is like, it's like skincare school. I'll be, I'll graduate school in October, and I'll be a licensed skincare specialist. I'll be able to work in like, a spa or a salon or something, and do facials or waxing, or stuff like that. Eyelashes. You're excited about that. I know I

Casey O'Roarty 55:45
just got to try that, try that eyelash situation.

Rowan O’Roarty 55:50
Really excited. You're excited. Yeah, you're excited. Yeah. It's, I mean, it's a, it's a Career School. It's not like, Oh, we're, you're gonna take, like, this writing class for you won't ever use it. It's like every day that I'm going I'm learning something that I'm going to specialize in, yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 56:07
do. What are your thoughts about the potential of some anxiety showing up as you move into the new a new learning environment?

Rowan O’Roarty 56:16
I mean, it definitely will, because I'll be working with people,

Casey O'Roarty 56:23
people you're not, but my sister has a funny shirt that says it's too peopley out there.

Rowan O’Roarty 56:29
I agree. I know that I'm going to get anxious, but also I know how to work through it now, which is crazy to me that I can say that, but I know that I could work through it, and it's just not as big of a deal as it used to be. Do you feel like

Casey O'Roarty 56:50
there's going to be a moment where you're going to recognize the payoff of working through it and staying in it and sticking with it is gonna outweigh that. It will be hard. Yeah,

Rowan O’Roarty 57:05
I think that I'm not gonna want to give up. I mean, it's only six months. It's a six month program, and afterwards, like, I don't have to go straight into getting a job. But for me, yeah, I do, but I could, and I could, you know, I could go anywhere, and I could take some time, and if school was so damaging to my mental health, which I don't think it will be, then I could take a break. But I don't think, I think I'll be fine.

Casey O'Roarty 57:38
I think you'll be fine too. I think it'll be a nice, small learning environment. And, like you said, really pointed content,

Rowan O’Roarty 57:46
and it'll be a good opportunity to be around people. Oh

Casey O'Roarty 57:52
my gosh, the facial expression I'm getting right now is so good. Oh man. Rowan, thank you so much. I love you. Love you too. So grateful that you would come and not only open up to me, because you all need to know that brow and and I do not sit around and have, I mean, we've had this conversation one other time because we already recorded this second time. We recorded it because something went terribly wrong. But, yeah, this is a she's gifting not only all of you and the community, but also me, this glimpse into her experience. And I'm grateful. And because I ask all of my parents this, or all of my guests this, when they come on, what is joyful courage in the context of you being you. What does joyful courage mean to you? I

Rowan O’Roarty 58:44
think joyful courage is having the courage to find joy even when like joy isn't presented to you or isn't right in front of you. It's having the courage to make a choice to be joyful. Yeah, I love that really. Thanks. Has anybody ever said that?

Casey O'Roarty 59:10
Oh, maybe something close to her, I love you. Love you. You.

Rowan O’Roarty 59:20
For them. Oh, thank

Casey O'Roarty 59:23
you so much for listening today, friends. I sure do hope that you got as much out of this interview as I did in recording it. I want to say a special thank you again to my sweet daughter who was so willing to come and share vulnerably about the last couple years and her experience. And we know that there are other parents and teens out there who are struggling the way that Rowan struggled, and I know that she would agree with me in saying, please just don't give up. Keep showing up. Your teens, even as they're pushing you away, even as they're sending the message that they don't want your help. They do. They do and please. One of the things that I really appreciated Rowan talking about was the importance of parents educating themselves about the challenges, especially the mental health challenges, that our teens are going through if you're like me, and maybe anxiety and depression hasn't been a part of your makeup. It's even more important for you to get your hands on some good resources and find out more so that you can be an ever better support for your teen. Now, our story isn't your story. YOUR Story has different flavors. Your story might play out differently. In no way is this conversation a recipe for what you should do with your teen. My hope is simply that you feel inspired and encouraged in hearing from a teen who's been through some tough times, and her mom as well, and we've both come to a new and different place, and it feels really, really, really good. So thank you for being here, and I appreciate you. Don't forget to check out the parenting for the season. You're in beta program at joyful courage.com/seasons also, if you loved the show and you want to shoot me an email, you know what would be even better is if you get into iTunes and you leave a rating and a review, it helps more parents find the show and to hear how it's landing for you is going to increase the likelihood that they will give it a listen. So thank you so much. Have a beautiful, beautiful week.

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