Eps 256: Untigering Our Parenting with Iris Chen

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Casey O'Roarty 0:04
Music. Hello friends. Welcome to the joyful courage podcast, a place where we tease apart what it means to be a conscious parent and a conscious human on the wild ride of parenting. I am your host. Casey o'rourdy, positive discipline trainer, parent, coach and Mama walk in the path right next to you as I imperfectly raise my own two teenagers. Joyful courage is all about grit, and grit stands for growth on the parenting journey, relationships that provide a sense of connection and meaning and influential tools that support everyone in being their best selves. Today is an interview show I encourage you to listen in for how the components of grit show up as my guest and I tease things apart. Thank you so much for listening. I am deeply, deeply honored to lead you. I am grateful that what I put out matters to you, and I am so flipping stoked to keep it coming in this new year. Thank you for who you are and for being a part of the community. Enjoy the show.

Hi, listeners. My guest today is Iris Chen. Iris is a writer, unschooler and founder of the untiring movement. After seeing the effects of Tiger parenting and unhealthy cultural expectations in her own life, she began to deconstruct from her authoritarian ways. Now she's on a mission to empower others to untiger by promoting mental health, peaceful parenting and educational freedom for children, she recently moved back to California with her husband and two sons after 16 years of living in China. Hi, Iris, welcome to the podcast. Hello.

Iris Chen 1:55
Thank you for having me

Casey O'Roarty 1:57
so talk a little bit more about Tiger parenting and the cultural context of this style. Sure,

Iris Chen 2:04
so Tiger parenting is what I think of when I think of very strict, authoritarian parenting that uses power over children and control, and it's sadly often associated with Chinese parenting and Asian parenting, mostly because the term was first written about in Amy chua's book battle him the tiger mother. So it's often associated with Asian parenting.

Casey O'Roarty 2:40
Yeah, and talk a little bit more about the association with Asian parenting and, like, where, like, what are the because, I mean, I can think about Tiger parenting, and from the white context, it's just, you know, it's the same as kind of that authoritarian style, like you said, controlling, kind of top down. But how does culture plan to Tiger parenting?

Iris Chen 3:02
Yeah, I wonder if it's also associated with immigrant parenting in a lot of ways. Because, you know, a lot of immigrants who come to the country have a lot of pressure to succeed and perform, and put that pressure on their children. And so I wonder if that is an aspect of it, but it's also, you know, in Asian cultures, traditionally, there have been very limited avenues to achieve success, because there's like, when I lived in China, a lot of what they said was always like, oh, there's so much competition. Like, we have so many people here, and they're all vying for like the same position or to be noticed, and so there's definitely a sense of competition and scarcity. And so I wonder if that also plays into it, and also this collectivist view, rather than an individualistic one. So your like, what you do reflects on your family, and there's a deep sense of responsibility and duty and hard work, and so I think all those things play into Tiger parenting in the Asian context. Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 4:17
talk a little bit about your experience growing up, yeah,

Iris Chen 4:21
so I my parents were, like, pretty typical Asian immigrant parents, you know, very strict. Had a lot of rules of what I was allowed to do or what I was not allowed to do. And like, maybe to my white friends, it seemed really extreme, but among my Chinese or Asian friends, it was pretty standard, you know, like we couldn't watch TV without asking. We had to eat everything that was on our plate. We weren't allowed to date, you know, all those things. So I just sort of accepted it. I didn't, but, but I think I. Did resent it. There was definitely a culture gap, you know, seeing the way my friends around me were raised and the type of relationship they had with their parents, and noticing that some of those aspects were lacking in my own family. So

Casey O'Roarty 5:15
yeah, did you have any room? So you mentioned before I hit record that you grew up teenage years in the Bay Area, right?

Iris Chen 5:22
Yes.

Casey O'Roarty 5:23
Did you find like, as a teenager that there was any room to push back against this? What you felt was like this kind of confining, strict parenting?

Iris Chen 5:35
Yeah. So I think with my personality, what I discovered was, like, I learned to follow all the rules, right? But I resented it. I learned how to be the good girl, and I got the grades and I did what was expected, you know, I didn't really rebel, but I think internally, I always felt sort of embittered by, you know, ways that I felt suffocated or ways that I didn't feel like I had freedom. So part of it was, you know, maybe self imposed in terms of like I I was just a rule follower. That's how I was conditioned to behave, and I didn't, but I knew I didn't like it.

Casey O'Roarty 6:20
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, and I think it's so interesting when we talk about parenting styles, and I'm sure that you do this in your work too. But one of the thing that things that comes up is, you know, when I lead groups and we talk about punishment specifically, and people's experiences of punishment, you know, it usually falls into, like you said, some resentment, but I'm going to follow the rules, but I'm not going to like it. Or there's those kids that, because of temperament and style, it's more of, watch this, you can't tell me what to do, and there's that big rebellion. And some of us, like me, I mean, I grew up with some. I mean, it wasn't super restrictive, but deaf. I mean, I got grounded a lot, and the big takeaway was I have to get better at sneaking out of that window, right, right? Versus like, Oh, my parents were really worried. And so it's just always interesting to hear how people navigate the confines of, you know, their particular flavor of childhood and how they were parented. I have two questions, but I think they're kind of the same question. So fast forward, and you become an adult and you have your kids. So how long did it take you before you recognized that the style of parenting that led you to feel some resentment and not really like it was actually something that was, and maybe this wasn't your experience, but you know that actually was something that was kind of embedded in you as a parent. Did you notice that? What was that experience like for

Iris Chen 8:00
you, yeah? Well, I think, you know, growing up, we have those experiences with our parents where we're like, I'm never gonna do that with my child. Or we make those

Casey O'Roarty 8:09
vows, declarations,

Iris Chen 8:13
and then we have our own children, and, um, yeah. And then a lot of it is, like, unconscious, you know, we just and perpetuating these patterns that we're not even aware of, and we don't know why. Like, I didn't know why I was doing what I was doing. I just knew that, you know, I felt like what I was doing was right. I was doing it because I thought it was the right thing to do and what was best for my child? So yeah, I mean, it wasn't exactly. There were still elements of a shift in my parenting compared to the way I was parented. But yeah, a lot of it was still very much control. And, you know, Mother knows best. So it wasn't until it was like my kids were not having it, like whereas, whereas, I may have been more compliant, right? So maybe to my parents, it seemed like it worked, right, right, right? But for my kids, especially my oldest, he was not having any of it, and it was just creating so much conflict and so many power struggles in our relationship and in our family, and so it sort of came to a head, and I was like, this is like, something's wrong, right? I didn't, I didn't know how to do any different. And I thought, like, I thought it was a battle of the wills. So if you push back, I had to push back harder, you know, to show show him who's boss. But then it just kept on escalating and escalating. And, yeah, I was getting to the point of desperation with my child. So that was like, you know, eight years in, maybe, right? So it was a. Long time that I was, yeah, Tiger parenting and using power over him, and one aha moment that I had was I just attended, like, a parenting workshop, and the speaker was just showing us brain scans of kids and what they looked like when they were calm, and what they look like when they were, you know, overstimulated and offline. And so you could see all like the parts that were lit up in the brain. And then just explaining that when, when they're in that state, they cannot think logically. They cannot really listen and learn and calm down. So when we as parents, then punish or yell or spank or get angry or whatever we do we we just make things worse, we exacerbate the situation, and we like make those their brain fire up even more. And so what they need from us in those moments is really like a calm presence and support and help, so that their brains and their bodies can, you know, attune and calm down and regulate. And I think that was a big aha moment for me, because, like this whole time, I had been assuming that my child was being willfully disobedient, right? Difficult? Like, why did he have to be so difficult instead of really recognizing that he was having a hard time, he needed my help, and once I realized that, yeah, I was so saddened by how I had responded in the past, like, you know, unconsciously and and without this knowledge and in my ignorance, and so, yeah, I began to to shift and to really try to recognize what was going on underneath the behavior.

Casey O'Roarty 11:58
Yeah, that is beautiful.

And what I really love a couple things. First of all, I really hope that listeners heard you talk about you know that you were well on your parenting journey eight. I think a lot of us feel like there's this, like, if you don't get it together when they're really little, all is lost. And it's just not true. I mean, I think that we I mean, I work a lot with parents of teenagers who are just coming into some of this understanding around behavior and their own personal growth and self discovery. And you know that fear of, oh my gosh, if I had only so I just want everyone to take a collective breath and know that when we know better, we do better, and it doesn't matter when the knowing better shows up, right? There's no, you know, there's no perfect timeline. And so thank you for sharing that. And I also love what you shared about the brain. I talk a lot about Dan Siegel's work and Tina Bryson's work. And so we're, we're talking a lot about the brain in the palm of the hand on this podcast, as well as, you know, remembering that behavior. You know, it's the tip of the iceberg, and what's happening underneath, and and that self Reg, I feel like all of our parenting woes all go back to self regulation. If it's not our kids self regulation, it's our self regulation. And, you know, and actually, when I say that, when we know better, we do better, I want to actually walk that back, because that's kind of a light, I don't know. There's a lot of assumptions in that statement. When we know better, we want to do better, right? And so I'm curious for you, Iris, what did it look like? Because we can, you know, read and listen and learn, and then it's, you know, the the integration of the information, knowing, having our eyes wide open, like, Oh, this is I didn't know that he wasn't just trying to manipulate me or trying to push my buttons, or I didn't realize that I was falling into these generational patterns, or whatever It is that we're a awakened to, awoken to, awakened to, and then it's like, okay, so, and we're still having these floods of emotion. We're still in the experience, in that reactive state. So what was it for you to shift into, moving towards a different way of being with your son. And how old are your you have two boys, right?

Iris Chen 14:46
Yes, they are 10 and 12, right? Now,

Casey O'Roarty 14:48
great. So how what was your process, as far as being able to dismantle the conditioning and really embody this different way of being with. Or boys.

Iris Chen 15:03
Well, you mentioned self regulation, you know. And so I think a lot of it for me personally was to process my childhood wounds and to sort of go back to like, just like the iceberg analogy. And just like, you know, the behaviors have all this unmet needs underneath when we look at our children, you know, and the same for me. So like, if I am reacting in a certain way to my child, what is my unmet need? What? What are the things that are driving my behavior? And to look at that really compassionately, you know, so not to punish myself for doing something that I shouldn't have done. I need to take responsibility for it, but then to be really compassionate with myself about the the needs that are driving that behavior. So taking the time to to grieve what was lost in my childhood, maybe to to really parent, re parent my inner child. So a lot of it really has is not, is not directly related to my relationship with my children. It has a lot to do with my relationship with myself, Yes, and how I process it. And so that is a lot of the inner work that we need to do as parents, because, like, whatever it is with our kids is really usually just triggering something from our past, not always, you know, but yeah, for me, that was a lot of it, learning to hold space for my emotions and to sort of take a step back to dig a little deeper to what was driving those emotions.

Casey O'Roarty 16:51
Yeah, I love that, and I think it's so important, because I believe our kids are doing exactly what they're meant to be doing, and you know, they're in reaction to the space and the people around them. And if the space and the people around them aren't really tapping into their own experience and and regulated and and remembering that we're the ones, we're the adults, we're the grown ups, we're the ones with skills. It's appropriate for our kids to not have skills,

Iris Chen 17:20
right? This is appropriate,

Casey O'Roarty 17:23
yeah, and I really appreciate too, again, reiterating like we, as, you know, parent educators, as people who write and speak and share about parenting, you know, I've, I'm guessing this has happened to you, where parents want, they want the formula, they want the script, but what am I supposed to do? And we'd all be making a lot more money if we had the answer to that. Because it's it really is that dismantling and curiosity of our own experience and being willing to tend to our internal experience and choose into, you know, trying something different. Because, you know, to me, I remember, I try to remember, like this feels, this is I'm trying something different, because this feels better to me. You know, this is more aligned with who I am and what my values are. And, you know, the side bonus, the benefit is that it actually creates a space where the people around me tend to be more connected and more cooperative. So absolutely selfish way to put it, but it's all about me, Iris,

Iris Chen 18:33
well and and I've heard people come at it a different way, sort of, you know, because they are so connected to their children, or because they see that their child deserves, you know, autonomy and deserves respect, and then they learn to do that for themselves, because because of their love for their child. So, yeah, I think it's not an either or thing. I think it's definitely a combination, but I think as parents, to also take responsibility for our actions. You know, we can't, we can't just, you know, make excuses for ourselves, but we can be compassionate with ourselves and get the support we need and take responsibility. So another aspect of my dismantling was really to begin to question my assumptions about parenting and about about children, about misbehavior, all those things, and really learn to just filter it all through, through a lens of love and Respect and anti oppression. And I think if we have those filters, then we have a good compass of how we are to respond to our kids, you know, like, yeah, maybe, maybe in the beginning, because we don't have those scripts or whatever we need those words or. Um, you know, this is what you do that. And I think those are helpful, especially in the beginning, but as we, you know, connect more to just the foundation of love and respect. Then I think in in those situations where we're at a loss, we can always go back to those things. Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 20:16
and I appreciate too that sometimes the words are useful, and sometimes they fall flat. And I think that what I try to bring people back to, as well, as you know, this is some language to play with. Yes, this is language to play with, to try on, to get better at, also coupling it with your own authentic way of being, letting go of the idea, oh, I'm supposed to say this thing, and then the outcome will be what I want. Because we are emotional beings, yes, living with emotional beings. So I appreciate that. You know, when we think about, I think a lot of us, you know, when you said, you said something early on that sparked this idea. I feel like our generation of parenting, of parents, you know, I think perhaps we are, I don't know if we're the first generation to really start to bring more awareness to the ways that we're showing up to our kids. I know that I, I mean, I wouldn't, I mean, my parent, I had parents. I had many parents because of my parents divorced, but I definitely recognize that, you know, there was a certain way that my dad and my stepmom showed up and there, and it was, I would say, pretty, you know, thoughtful in the way that there was some sense of like, planning and can control on their side of like, how should we handle this? Versus my mom, who I adore and have an amazing relationship now, but as a young person, she was pretty dysregulated and would fly off the handle, and it wasn't like, maybe I should take a second and think about how I want to handle this and so, and they're just like, no shame to either set of parents, because they were doing the best they could with the tools they had. They were doing what they thought they should be doing. And I just am recognizing, you know, here we are now saying, oh, there might be a different way, and maybe I can learn more about myself. And I'm really excited and and looking forward to, you know, hopefully 10 to 15 years, at least before I'm a grandparent and I get to watch, you know, and the same for you like, we get to watch our kids with even more awareness, hopefully, around how they're showing up for their kids. So I think it's really just exciting and powerful and but I think a lot of us are pushing back against this authoritarian style of parenting. Many of us were raised, you know, my way or the highway kind of controlling. And I recognize the rest of you out there who maybe had the flip side of that, the permissive side of that, or perhaps, you know, neglect, but I want to speak directly to those of us that were raised with a more authoritarian style. And I know that when we decide that's not the way I'm going to do it, sometimes, because there's no great model, right? So sometimes we swing into the other extreme, which is to be permissive because we don't know what else to do, and that feels out of control and scary too. Can feel like a free for all. And so then there's a tendency to swing back, you know, like that, either or and positive discipline. We call it kind or firm with, you know, like you said, the compass. I love that the compass, if we're compasses, to be kind and firm, right? Because listeners, Iris is not saying no boundaries. She's not saying, you know, no agreements, no routines. This is and I say this because I I'm a positive discipline trainer, and so people hear that and it's like, oh, kids just get to do whatever they want. Or sometimes when I hear peaceful parenting. And I watch conversations around peaceful parenting, there's this idea that I noticed coming to the surface where it's all about being nice all the time. And I think that that short changes the movement. Can you talk a little bit about that swing from, you know, kind of commanding, demanding, into permissive, and then back? Did you have any of that? Like, did you have to move through that? Or,

Iris Chen 24:44
yeah, in some ways, some ways, I still, like, I'm still in the process of me too, right, right, adjusting. Like, am I being too loose here? Do they got this? And so it's a process, right? It's a journey. And I guess. Like that image of the compass is, like, we're constantly trying to find that true north, right? Like, I don't know if we ever really arrive, you know, because we need to constantly be adjusting and constantly pivoting, because, like, suddenly there's a rock right in front of us, and we can't go straight ahead. We need to go around it. And so I think it really is. It really does require us to have humility and connection with our kids so that we can be attuned. And because I think it's not a formula, you know, we we don't get to just plug and chug and get the results that we want. I think that's a very Tiger parenting mindset, you know. But I think it is relational, and in relationships, there are no guarantees, right? We just have to lean into trust and lean into connection. So I think, but I do think it's important for us not to be reactionary in our parenting, because then we're, we're sort of projecting our own issues onto our kids and creating new problems, right? So if we, you know, like if we grew up in purity culture and we weren't allowed to date, we don't just want to step back and let our kids go wild in their sexual exploration without any of our input, right? We still want to provide loving guidance and information and resources and a safe place to talk about things. So I think the problem with swinging back from permissiveness to control is when our kids start doing things that make us uncomfortable, so we think, yeah. So we think, okay, if I have enough connection and they know that I love them, then they'll do what I want, right? Yeah, they'll make good choices, bad news. Everyone doesn't really work that way. You know they have their own autonomy. They have their own journey, and so yeah, like, how can we in those moments not swing back to control, and not to just like, be hands off, but to really keep that communication open and to build in more connection and trust, because if they know we're not there to control that, we're not there to make them do what we want them to do, we're really there to support them and to, yeah, give guidance as they welcome it, you know? Yeah. So, yeah, when I think of peaceful parenting, it's not about achieving a desired result, because that's still a very manipulative, contractual kind of relationship and but it's a type of parenting that's not about behavior management, right, but is about connection and respect, yeah?

Casey O'Roarty 27:57
And I feel like I don't really love the term peaceful parenting. Honestly, okay, okay.

Iris Chen 28:03
Why explain why?

Casey O'Roarty 28:04
I think it's because I see so many parents trying, like, miss, misinterpreting it like as it feels. And I'm all for the peace. I mean, we have a giant peace sign on top of our house that's all lit up in lights for the holidays. I am down with peace, and I feel like sometimes it's not the concept, it's the it's just the word. Like it feels like parents are, you know, there's a huge beat up opportunity when they lose their shit, you know, because that's, oh, I'm supposed to be peaceful. This is supposed to be peaceful. I feel like it's this idea that there's never any there's never any emotional dysregulation. And I think that as a human being on the planet, you know, that I have, through practice, my own experience is that through many, many years of practice, I have managed to lessen my dysregulation so it happens less often because I have a solid self care, Soul care practice and my awareness has grown over time, and this like the level of, you know, lid flipping that happens for me, has the intensity is much less. I mean, especially thinking back to when my kids were little, and I really wasn't recognizing how quickly that conditioning could be triggered. And I still lose it. I still have opportunities to go to my kids and say, Wow, I really, I had a really hard time earlier today, and the way that I treated you wasn't okay, and I'm really sorry about that. And here's how I'm helping myself so that next time I respond in a different way and I feel like I just, I just, really, I'm I constantly. Am talking about this because I feel like it's not a parenting fail, and nor do I think that peaceful parenting the thing would say that it was a parenting fail, but I feel like there's this baggage around it, like you're not allowed to make mistakes, you're not allowed to show up as a human and to screw up, and because, oh my gosh, if that was the test, like you're you're a good parent, you're a peaceful parent. When you never raise your voice and you never slide into that controlling pattern, then I think we'd all be, I mean, I don't know anyone, even the Dalai Lama. I mean, he's gonna have some tough days, right? Lose it sometimes. So anyway, it's just my own little thing. I mean, it's, it's nothing around, like the concept and the idea of it. It's just this. I want to make sure that parents understand that it's, you know, okay, there's actually a powerful opportunity when we find ourselves making mistakes. On the parent side, there's a powerful opportunity for modeling, yes, personal responsibility and ownership and accountability and humility, like you mentioned. So yeah, I just

Iris Chen 31:10
want to speak into that, because I have a very different experience with the phrase peaceful, awesome team. Yeah, because I started initially, I would often use the phrase gentle parenting, that's very commonly used outside, but I've been consciously shifting to using peaceful parenting, because I feel like it more accurately describes my vision. Whereas when I talk about Gentle, gentle feels like sort of warm and fuzzy and a bit soft, you know? And I don't really relate. I don't connect to that either. I'm not, I wouldn't say I'm gentle in that way, but I feel like, you know, if we think of peace as like, peacemaking as the work of peace, the work of justice as relationship, rather than a state, you know, so I don't think of peace as a state. I think of it as work. And there's a quote that I that I share with my community, and it says, you keep pairing me with quiet peace said, but my true companion is the mighty clamor of chains being ripped clean from the wall. This is by Laurie hatin, so, yeah, I think it's just like, the words that are, you know, the images that we associate with peace really don't have to do with peace, because peace is about justice. It's about, it's about, like, it's very active, it's strong, it's purposeful. Like, if you think of like, trying to build peace between nations. You know, that's not, that's not something soft now, it's

Casey O'Roarty 32:47
not,

Iris Chen 32:48
there's a lot of communication, a lot of, you know, trying to find Win Win situations. It's very, it's very powerful. And so it's not something that is like passive or permissive or polite. You know, it's very relational, and is mutual. Whereas, like I felt legitimate gentle parenting, it sort of just described the parent, whereas peaceful parenting, I feel like, is relational. So yeah, that those are some of my thoughts about why I connect with the word peaceful parenting.

Casey O'Roarty 33:19
Iris. You are. You are giving me pause here. I like that. I like that. That's a nice shift for me, even in how I was holding it. I appreciate that. And it makes total sense. And yeah, I mean, part of it is, it's not it is i You said mutual mutual respect is something that we talked about in positive discipline and mutual respect, just to remind everybody that's listening might come from is I'm going to respect the human in front of me, meaning I'm going to treat them with dignity and respect regardless of what's going on, while also respecting myself and the situation. And I love that distinction versus well, you respect me and I'll respect you. There's a lot riding on the other person's behavior there, and I feel and it's conditional, and I feel like the version of you know, I'm going to respect you and I'm going to respect myself, then I don't have to wait around for you to respect me. I get to just be again, back to that alignment with my values. I get to be, you know, the person that I want to be inside of that definition of mutual respect,

Iris Chen 34:31
yeah, and so that peace also applies to our relationship with ourselves, right? Like, do I have peace with myself? Am I aligned to my own values. All right, yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 34:45
okay, you've won me over.

Iris Chen 34:49
Embrace it.

Casey O'Roarty 34:59
I. Talk about a little bit, you know, and so I'm guessing, you know, you also mentioned earlier on that anti oppression lens, so I can see now that we've had this conversation, how parenting with an anti oppression lens fits inside of this peaceful parenting idea. But is there more that you can tell us about, you know, enlighten us around parenting with an anti oppression lens.

Iris Chen 35:26
Yeah, I think even among, you know, positive parenting circles or whatever, and I think it's just like the way we're taught to relate to children can still sometimes be very oppressive and dehumanizing and but we don't question it, because that's the way it's been done for centuries, right, right? So from the time children are infants, you know, adults are the ones controlling when they sleep, what they eat, what they wear, you know, just all of it. And so children rarely have their autonomy and consent honored. And there's a lot of treatment of children that we justify, that we as adults would never tolerate, you know, so I think that's something that we really need to examine and bring awareness to, and that's what I mean when I talk about anti oppression. Because, you know, when we're, you know, thinking about other social justice issues, oftentimes we don't still bring that intersectional lens into our relationship with children. You know, we still feel like we can treat children a certain way for their own good. Yeah, we have the right but, yeah, yeah. But I think we need to start shifting those beliefs and bring awareness to the fact that children are worthy of honor and dignity and certain rights, you know, so the way that we come alongside them has to be supportive and respectful of those well. And

Casey O'Roarty 36:57
I just, you know, as soon as I got into this work and started supporting parents and myself. You know what I would come back to is just imagining a world where well, and Peggy O'Meara has that great quote which I can't I don't have memorized, but imagining a world a generation that comes of age and has been brought up in a space that has honored their dignity and asked for consent and like, it would be a different world. I mean all the crazy people, and I don't mean like, not mentally ill people, but like the over the top, no names mentioned right now, but like, clearly, you know, would have been a different outcome with some different kind of support and love and guidance. So, yeah,

Iris Chen 37:48
definitely, the way that we treat our children has a massive effect on the type of world that we grow up in, that we that they will grow up in, and this is we build together. You know, if you're used to people just towing the line and questioning oppression, not speaking, if you have it made it, then you know you have failed in some way. That's just yeah. There's a complete lack of empathy, a desire to just follow the status quo and not question, yeah, injustice, like all of that, has starts with parenting for sure. Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 38:29
tell us a little bit about your book.

Iris Chen 38:33
Yes. So I wrote a book called untiring peaceful parenting for the deconstructing Tiger parent. So a lot of it was my own personal journey of leaving behind coercive parenting to embrace peaceful parenting, especially centering my own experience as a Chinese American who is trying to put this philosophy into practice like despite my cultural, you know, baggage and my family dynamics that I grew up with and all that. So, yeah, I really wanted to write a book for somebody like me, because there's so many resources out there that are written by white people and for a white audience. And even as I began my blog, just realizing that my experience as an Asian American woman, as an Asian American parent, is different, and it has different flavors and a different lens, in some ways, and so I wanted to bring that into a parenting book that was accessible For people like me. So yeah, that is coming out January 5 of 2021, and I'm really excited to share it with everyone. Yay,

Casey O'Roarty 39:49
work, people find your book.

Iris Chen 39:52
Yes, it will be on Amazon. So yes, you can just look it up there. It will be available. Paperback and ebook,

Casey O'Roarty 40:01
nice, tell us where we can follow you and find your work. Yes.

Iris Chen 40:06
So I have a blog untiring.com I also post to social media on Facebook. I have a Facebook page at untiring and an Instagram account at untiring as well.

Casey O'Roarty 40:19
And I will make sure all of those links listeners are in the show notes. I have a final question for you, Iris, and I ask all my guests this at the end of our interview. And in the context of untiring parenting, what does joyful courage mean to you?

Iris Chen 40:38
I really love how you pair those two words together, because they're not often put together like that. But when I think of joyful courage in terms of parenting, I think of a kind of hopefulness and a trust. So no matter what this situation is, there's still that underlying spirit of hopefulness and trust and the courage to let go, the courage to let go of the lie that we need to be in control, the lie that, yeah, we have to be the one in charge and do things the way it's always been done, the courage to try something new and to let go.

Casey O'Roarty 41:25
I love that. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for giving us your time today. It's been super great to get to know you and talk parenting with you.

Iris Chen 41:35
Yes, I had a great time. Thank you for having me. You

Casey O'Roarty 41:44
all right, thanks again for listening, if you feel inspired, if you're excited, if you loved the content today or any other day and you haven't already done so, please do me a favor and head over to Apple podcasts and leave a review. We are working hard to stand out and make a massive impact on families around the globe. Your review of the podcast really helps joyful courage to be seen by even more parents. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Also be sure to follow me at joyful underscore courage on Instagram and joyful courage on Facebook. We love connecting with you on social media, and don't forget to sign up for the upcoming Brave New World Summit. Sign up now to get that journey to joy. Bonus, www, dot joyful courage.com/b, n, w, love you don't forget in the moment when you're feeling that overwhelm, take a breath. Ride it into your body, find the balcony seat and remember that everything is going to be okay

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