Eps 296: The Work of Romantic Partnership with Jayson Gaddis

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Jayson Gaddis 0:00
That actually is the hallmark, as you probably know, of secure attachment, is a parent's ability to self reflect on their own life and make meaning. That's the number one predictor of whether a child is going to be raised in a secure attachment environment.

Casey O'Roarty 0:16
Hey, friends, welcome back to the joyful courage podcast, a place where we tease apart what it means to be a conscious parent and a conscious human on the wild ride of parenting. I am your host. Casey o'brty, positive discipline lead trainer, parent, coach and mom walking the path right next to you as I imperfectly raise my own two teenagers. Joyful courage is all about grit, growth on the parenting journey, relationships that provide a sense of connection and meaning and influential tools that support everyone in being their best selves. Today's show is an interview, and I encourage you to listen for how grit shows up as my guest and I tease things apart. Thank you so much for listening. I am deeply honored to lead you. I'm grateful that what I put out matters to you, and I am stoked to keep it coming. Thank you for who you are and for being in the community. Enjoy the show.

Hey everybody, welcome back to the joyful courage Podcast. I'm so happy that you're all here, and I'm really excited to introduce my guest today, Jason Gaddis. Jason is an author, a relationship coach, a relationship expert who teaches people the one class they didn't get in school, which is how to do relationships. Jason leads one of the most in depth and comprehensive relationship education programs and trains relationship coaches all over the world. He has 1000s of fans and followers across multiple channels, and is the host of the relationship school podcast with over 5 million downloads and over 330 episodes, he is the visionary behind the relationship school and his first book, getting to zero will be out in October. Hi, Jason, welcome to the podcast. Hey,

Jayson Gaddis 2:12
what's up, Casey, it's good to be here.

Casey O'Roarty 2:14
Yeah, I was just telling you before I hit record, I'm really excited to have you on the show. I'm a fan of the relationship school podcast, and I actually started listening to it when it was called the Smart couples podcast, yeah, yeah. So talk a little bit about how you found yourself being a relationship expert. Yeah.

Jayson Gaddis 2:33
I like to call myself a relationship student and teacher, because I'm constantly learning how this stuff works. It seems there is no summit here. And, you know, I'm always learning, and when I think I have it figured out with my wife, I usually am humbled in some way and like, oh, that did work, but it doesn't work anymore. Yeah, so I formerly was a kind of a relationship disaster, and just emotionally shut down, guarded guy, and used a lot of drugs and alcohol and was just kind of checked out and lost in my life and relationship, enough relationship, what I call failures, I know those can be reframed, you know, brought me to my knees, essentially, and said, Okay, I think I'm the problem here, which was a very, very pivotal moment in my life when everything changed, and that's When I took responsibility and started learning like a student. And I was like, Man, I don't know what I'm talking about here, and I gotta learn. Because I really did want to have a fulfilling relationship, and I wanted to have deeper friendships.

Casey O'Roarty 3:32
I love what you said. I'm going to take responsibility. I talk about parenting, and if we haven't done the work before having our kids. You know, those early years really are an opportunity to realize the depth of our conditioning and and sometimes, you know, we have a choice of when to dig in there or not, and if you don't, the teen years definitely roll around and you are given another opportunity. For me, it was really like, Okay, I've got it together, and then I've got this 15 year old, and I'm like, Oh my God, I don't have anything together like this is a whole new layer to being in relationship, both with my child as well as just with myself and with my own experiences and the beliefs that I had created over time. You know, parenting, just like being in romantic partnership, is such a mirror and such an opportunity to grow, yeah, and it's super layered. So I've been with my partner for 26 years. Nice hold. A long time married for 22 we have two teens. Now I have an 18 year old daughter and a 15 year old son, and conflict is super real, and that's really your book. So tell us about getting to zero, because it is about navigating conflict, right? So tell us about the inspiration for that book.

Jayson Gaddis 4:53
Yeah, sure. And by the way, my my kids are 10 and 12, so I've yet to come into. Getting close, buddy, we're getting close. So I know I'm gonna get schooled, but I'm ready. I've got some good tools, I think. Yeah, my book's called getting to zero, how to work through conflict in your high stakes relationships. And it's all, I mean, that's the subtitle. Really says it all. It's like, how do we get back to a good place, which is zero after we've had a rupture, a disconnection, after their silence, like we just feel bad. How do we get back to a good place? Because life is better when we're connected again and when we're feeling safe and seen and supported. So that's essentially, it's a guidebook on how the heck do we do that? What

Casey O'Roarty 5:33
do you see as the biggest roadblocks for people that you work with when navigating conflict in their relationships,

Jayson Gaddis 5:40
avoiding conflict, thinking it's bad and wrong or it's the scary monster, and then blame, of course, and an unwillingness to take responsibility and learn. If you have all of that kind of mixed together, you're kind of screwed when it comes to having successful, I think, fulfilling, long term relationships, not just partnerships, because to me, the hallmark of any successful relationship is the willingness and ability to work through conflict. So yeah, and then there's other roadblocks we do. We get defensive, we hope and pray it gets better. We think time will take care of it. We do all kinds of funny workarounds to try to make it better, and often those are band aids, and they don't really work or get the job done.

Casey O'Roarty 6:26
I recently had an experience where I had some things happening inside my relationship with my husband, and I realized I tend to when I get stressed or afraid, I hold on tight and looks like controlling and nagging and just listen to me kind of vibe. And I realized, like, Okay, I'm gonna, you know what, I'm gonna let this go. I'm gonna let it go. And I made this big declaration in my mind, and I realized that, well, yeah, okay, I'm I'm no longer nagging and controlling, but I'm being super passive aggressive. So how much so just kind of went underground. So it's, you know, I am just fascinated with the work of being ever more aware of ourselves. You know, for me in that moment, it was recognizing like, Oh, if I'm really going to let go, then I get to stop feeling mad. I get to just release the responsibility, the energetic responsibility that I'm holding, as if I'm in charge of this person, and really allowing them to be in charge. And that's it keeps coming up, you know? Like it's got, it's not a linear process, right? It's that spiral, like, oh, here it is again. Here it is again.

Jayson Gaddis 7:39
Did you ever try just saying, I'm just curious? Just no, yeah, please. Just saying, like, looking him or whoever in the eyes, and saying I'm angry, yeah?

Casey O'Roarty 7:47
Oh, yeah.

Jayson Gaddis 7:49
Did that work or,

Casey O'Roarty 7:50
well, I mean, did that work? It allowed me to express Yes. Um, I guess for me, it's always coming back to, like, what do I ultimately want? And a lot of times, if I'm being super honest, what I want is for them to just do what I see as the right thing to do.

Jayson Gaddis 8:09
Yeah, yeah, live according to your values or expectations. Yes, right? And

Casey O'Roarty 8:14
I think that, you know, and it's just, it's so fascinating and messy, and I love to roll around in all of it and have conversations about it. Man, I don't know my husband isn't a big so much love to roll around in it, but, yeah, but that's okay, you know? I

Jayson Gaddis 8:32
mean, none of us do look I really dislike conflict and the feelings associated with it when I'm inside of it. It's just, yeah, it's not fun. It's it's very uncomfortable for me. Yet I because of that, I've used that as motivation to try to get more and more efficient and try to create tools and strategies to get to the other side sooner. And I think my wife and I at this point, do a very good job of that, although we go through stages where we're not doing a good job, and then when you're like, Okay, let's put it out on the table, and what do we got to do to figure this one out and get more efficient here?

Casey O'Roarty 9:05
Yeah, what are the most common types of conflict that you see inside of intimate relationships? And maybe before that question, when we're talking about intimate relationships, it is not solely our partner relationships, right?

Jayson Gaddis 9:18
Yeah, right. So I call them high stakes relationships because it includes things outside of the intimate relationship, which is certainly a high stake relationship. It's like business partners, family relationships, those tend to be the highest stake relationships. That's kind of where I'm coming from. So yes, it's it's more than just our intimate partner. And so when we say the five most common types of fights i i talk about, you know, there's probably 1000s, but I identified five buckets that I feel like most arguments, disagreements and challenges come fall into. And I'll just list them real quick and we can unpack them. Surface fights, value differences, project. Fights, resentments and security fights,

Casey O'Roarty 10:05
yeah, let's unpack them, please. So what are surface fights? Surface

Jayson Gaddis 10:09
fights are tend to be the little stuff that we fight about, where'd you leave the keys, or how come you're late, things like that, and if they turn into the charge, deactivation doesn't fit the sort of crime. And you're like, Whoa, you're overreacting. And we say things like that, it tends to mean that there's just a deeper tributary underneath the surface that we haven't dealt with. And people get stuck on the surface a lot, thinking it's about the keys and not the resentment, not about the keys people. And usually it's a sign that it's a resentment fight, or the other four really resentment projection security or a value difference. And then I think this is a useful frame, because as we get into these we can start to go, oh, that's what we're fighting about, because a lot of people don't know what they're actually fighting about. Do

Casey O'Roarty 10:59
you do any work with love languages? No,

Jayson Gaddis 11:02
I appreciate the love languages and what it has to offer, and it it's a value, but it's not my gig.

Casey O'Roarty 11:08
So then the reason I ask is I notice, and this is a conversation that I have with my girlfriends a lot, is it feels like I receipt, like what I need the most is, you know, closeness, desire to be with me, words like the words of affirmation and my partner, he shows love through, you know, thinking about changing and doing, changing my oil and making sure I have gas in my car, yeah. And so I'm wondering where that and so it kind of feels like, you know, I'm like, well, thank you. And I really just want you to snuggle with me before bed and spend time with me. So how, where does that fit inside of the is that a value? Is that a well, what starts to happen is I start to get resentful, like, even if it's like, well, yeah, great, you changed my oil. What about, what about the real needs that I have? Right? Exactly,

Jayson Gaddis 12:05
yeah, yeah. Well, let's I think to me, it brings up the conversation around needs, because a lot of people would put those love languages in language, like, need. I need words of affirmation, I need physical contact, which is fine, but I think what people really need are the four needs I've outlined in the book. Which are, I need to feel emotionally and physically safe. I need to feel seen and accepted for who I am and known. I need to feel soothed, which means, just after we have a rupture, a conflict of some kind, you will come back and repair it with me, and I need to feel supported and challenged. And these are actually bio psychosocial needs that create secure attachment and secure bonding between two people. So more than I think that you could fit the love language into those four categories, because I think what you're ultimately wanting is look. I want to feel seen and soothed here and known for who I am. And if your husband's doing his job in these in his best moments, he knows actually what works for you, and you feel like your needs are getting met there. And then you to have a secure partnership that feels where, when you're in a really good place, you're optimized, you're feeling really good, you can go tackle all the other challenges in your life. And he's not, and she's not the problem anymore, right?

Casey O'Roarty 13:29
Yeah, and I'll fully, I want to just fully acknowledge too, that I don't change his oil, nor do I think about his oil like there's plenty of things that, you know, ways that I'm not seeing him as he wants to be seen as well. So I always am. You know, anytime we have conversations, relationship Conversations, I'm it is important to me to acknowledge that there are two people in a relationship always Yeah, and we're always influencing the dynamic both of us. So yeah,

Jayson Gaddis 14:01
and What's tricky about men like me and him, perhaps, is we get conditioned to show love through doing, for example, instead of being and that can be challenging for a partner who's wanting more, like emotional heart connection. And I think if people are motivated wherever they are in this kind of spectrum, they will and they see it being beneficial. They have to see it as beneficial to their relationship. They might start to learn about things like emotional intelligence or relational competency, because it's good for us, it's good for the relationship, rather than you're trying to change me, right? It's got to be seen in this is actually going to help us be a stronger team.

Casey O'Roarty 14:43
Yeah, I love that.

I have a friend that recently said, you know, there's you and there's us and there there's our partners, but then there's a third entity, which is the relationship. And I think when we can focus on that third piece, it feels less personal in a way. Yeah,

Jayson Gaddis 15:06
yeah. The book I outline my concept for that is called standing for three and I talk about, if we're out on two boats on the middle of the ocean, your boat, you know, when you partner with someone, two boats come together, and they join and they make us bigger, stronger, more stable boat in a way out in the ocean, and you partner with someone because you're perceiving and thinking that this has more advantages than disadvantages to life. So I'm going to partner with this person. I think this is going to go better for me. So that's why we partner. And then we get in this relationship and we realize it's really fucking hard, and this person is difficult, and they're pain in the ass, and, oh, my god, what have I done? But if the couple in this example, in an intimate relationship, can learn to stand for three, it means I take a stand for me, and I have my own back, and I take a stand for my success, and I'm not going to leave myself behind anymore. And you take a stand for yourself and your success, etc, and I take a stand for that in you, and then we take a stand for us, this big boat we're in, because there might have leaks and the sail might rip, and we don't know where we're going always, and we've got to learn how to operate this thing called us, so that those are the three me, you us, and I'm taking a stand and putting my staff on the ground for all three of us.

Casey O'Roarty 16:20
I love that. I love that, especially for those of us that have been in really long. I mean, I met my husband I was 21 as a child. I mean, I have a kid who's, you know, three years from now, she will be 21 it's really trippy. And, yeah, that's not, you know, half my life I've been with this person and and, you know, and I'm in it like I'm in it to win it. I'm super grateful for our partnership. And, man, it is, yeah, it's really fucking hard. It's an ebb and a flow. It's, you know, it's life unfolding, yeah. I mean, yeah. And one of the places that shows up that I hear a lot, just with clients, when we do talk, you know, they come to me to talk about how to fix their teenager, but in the end, we talk a lot about, you know, their own experience. And, you know, eventually there's conversations, if there's a partner at home, what that looks like. And something that comes up a lot is resentment, and that was in your list of different kinds of conflict. Can you talk a little bit about that? Yeah,

Jayson Gaddis 17:20
totally. So I have a couple ways to look at resentment that might be a little unusual. When I try to get you to live according to my values, you're going to resent me. When you try to get me to live according to your values or how you do life, I'm going to resent you. And this is where expectations come in. So the basic way to look at this is it creates an expectation. I'm expecting you to do life like me, or to do conflict like me, or to do relationships like me. And when you create an expectation, and the other person somehow has to like be you, you know they're going to resent you, and then you're going to resent them because they won't fit into your box. But the thing we have control over is the expectation we can actually really examine, hmm, is that fair for me to ask them to be who I think they should be? And later in the book, I talk about reasonable requests. And yes, if it's a reasonable request, we can ask people to change, but we can't. We got to focus on behavior, not who they are.

Casey O'Roarty 18:20
Yeah, ooh, say that again for the people on behavior,

Jayson Gaddis 18:24
not personhood. Yeah. I learned that from Dewey Freeman a long time ago in grad school, and it's been a game changer. And working with teens, it's huge, because so many teens feel judged for who they are, and it's like parents have a struggle sometimes separating out behavior. Like, no, I love you. I love who you are. I just really dislike this behavior. Yeah? And you get a parent to say, You got to change that behavior as long as you're living in my house, yeah? Or even,

Casey O'Roarty 18:51
you know, what do you think about like in that context? I often go back to, okay, I also want to know what's getting in the way of my teenager being able to step into the expectation that I have, and then I get to depersonalize it again, right? Because it's they're still in that developmental, a developmental place of learning, as we are forever. But you know, I think once they get big, I mean, my son's six, three, it's crazy and it's easy, just like when, just like when we have our second baby, and the toddler that we have, all of a sudden seems like a massive giant. And sometimes we get a little confused as to what we should be expecting from the two year olds, and it's like, well, you're so big now, you should have all these skills. I think the same thing happens in the teen years. And so coming back to the resentment conversation, it's really, it's, it feels really hard, especially in these you know, moving from parent teen to partners, to have this long standing relationship with some. One, and it almost feels like overnight, it's like, wait a minute, when did we stop being curious about expectation? Like, when did we kind of lose I feel like there it's, it's, maybe it's about being complacent, right? Like, we have kids, and it's all the kids, and it's intense, like focusing in and we've had, personally, some really intense few years with mental health as well as a health crisis for my husband. And it's like we kind of lost, have lost our way a little bit, yeah, and so, yeah. So then that willingness piece I heard you say that at the top, like having this willingness to be focusing in on relationship. My daughter and I went through dialectic behavioral therapy together, which was total game changer about a year and a half ago. And one of the pieces that was shared that has stuck with me as I've continued to work with parents of teens, is the distinction between being willing and being willful. And when I'm in willingness, it feels like willingness is this internal choice, right? Like, I'm going to be open, I'm willing to be vulnerable, to be seen and accountable for my actions, and willful, feels more like a, like a pushing out, like a no, I'm Yeah. I want to exert my will, yeah, like I'm exerting my will, and I'm just curious, like, talk to me about because I know that there are people listening who are ready to focus on relationship and ready to take ownership, and might be in a partnership with someone who, like you just were mentioning, you know, unfortunately in our society, we're Coming out of, I think we're coming out of, well, the history of conditioning men to not really spend too much time developing their emotional selves. And so how do we invite people into willingness? Yeah,

Jayson Gaddis 21:56
great. I mean, I hope we are I hope what you're saying is true. I when I look around and my son is 12, and I think the boycott is still extremely pervasive. So you're not I'm not that hopeful. Honestly, yeah, I don't think you know men are like this big problem, but people forget where men come from, which is conditioning. And so many men are conditioned, like you're saying, out of their emotions and out of being relationally focused, yeah, and it's, it's a bummer. So, but, but there are more and more men doing this kind of work and caring, and more dads that are very involved and they understand the heart connection piece and like, Wait, I gotta understand emotions here if I want a good relationship. So I think more and more people are like that, especially adults. Anyway, right on, yeah, so there's ways we can invite people into being willing. And again, we have to zoom back out and ask people, you know, we got, let's say someone's married 20 years and they have a semi unwilling partner, at least, that's how it looks. It's just having a really adult conversation. Like, look, it's been 20 years, and I'm starting to feel like I need more contact in this relationship, and I need more I don't know depth, or I was cool with it for a long time, and I'm starting to not feel good about it, and I'm starting to feel and then, if you can share your emotions the impact, I'm starting to feel sad, starting to feel alone. I'm starting to feel kind of on my own over here, and I imagine you're not trying to do that to me or anything. That's just how I feel given our dynamic right now. And do you, are you okay in our relationship, as is, if we go another 20 just like this, are you good? I need, I think I need to know that, because I'm not. I'm a hell no to that. And if the person says, Yeah, I'm good, and it's like, wow, we are vastly different humans, and I don't want to spend the next five even or one trying to change you. So I but what I need to hear from you is, are you up for transformation? Are you up for evolving and becoming a deeper human, not not trying to be like me, going deeper into your own journey and uncovering more about yourself, because I think that will lead to a better relationship together. But so in other words, are you open to growing? Are you open to developing yourself? Are you open to learning about relationships? Because we technically haven't done that in our relationship, let's say. And then again, I'm trying to gage how receptive this person is, and I can sniff out the bullshit if I've been with them for 20 years, if they just try to please me, it's gonna be pretty obvious. But hopefully by 20 years, they're going to be like, Nah, that's that's good. I'm not into that. Then it's like, cool. I need to start thinking about possibly leaving this relationship, because I am moving towards unhappiness and the lack of fulfillment here. Yeah, and I want to respect you, if, if your truth is, I don't want to change. I'm never going to change. This is who I am. Them got it, message received, and I'm likely going to move on just, you know, and that, I know that might sound scary, but that's probably where this is headed well,

Casey O'Roarty 25:11
and I really appreciate what you just said about I'm not. It's not about making, making you into me, right? I think sometimes, and even I remember my daughter as a younger teenager, struggling and, you know, and inviting her to go to yoga with like, you should try yoga. You might like yoga. And she looks me, and she was like, yoga is your thing. And I was like, actually, I think there's like, 8 billion people on the planet, or 7 million people on the planet who also enjoy yoga. So it's not really my thing, but I think there's definitely some like, oh, personal growth is mom's thing, you know, like, that's what she loves and and what you said was, it's about an invitation to go deeper into who, into their human experience. We didn't say human experience, but that's kind of how I I thought about it, their human experience, what it means to be them in the world. And I also feel like, you know, hey, like our emotional the emotional world we have, our physical body, our emotional body, and to just neglect and act like it's just not something we do. It's an entire piece of us,

Jayson Gaddis 26:24
absolutely again, yeah, imagine being in that boat and the other person is saying, I have no interest in making our boat, like, more efficient, more beautiful. It's fine with a couple leaky holes in it, you know, I don't really care that much, because I think we can sail another 20 years on this thing. That's like, that's kind of sad. It's like, holy shit. There's all these technologies that make our boat faster, more nimble, more efficient. We actually could work through all our challenges better. Like, yeah, really, that's what. You don't want a new boat here. You don't want a boat upgrade. So again, if we use metaphor, sometimes people can go, oh, yeah, I guess is that what I'm saying, shit, maybe I do want a better boat. Well, that's gonna require some labor and some work. Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 27:06
I can't even tell you how perfect the boat metaphor is for me personally, anyway. So then getting to zero, right? Like this whole idea of being grounded, being connected, being in receptive mind, you know, how does that play into talk about the process of having these kinds of conversations? Because this is that's a it's a big conversation to have, and if one person is really invested in the content of the conversation, and then maybe the other person is feeling defensive, like I could see how a conversation like that could really spiral into something that isn't necessarily useful. So bring getting to zero into that context as well.

Jayson Gaddis 27:47
Okay? If we're in our in that kind of relationship that you're describing, we're not at zero already. We're living day to day as a 123, my zero scale goes zero to 10, okay? And it's activation in your nervous system. It's like, how safe and solid you feel in your own being, being with this other person in the same home, in the same space, zero is like, man, we feel great right now, and there's no complaints. There's no needing to change anybody. It's like, this is how I want it to be. That's zero. So if you're unfulfilled or feeling like a snag because your partner won't come along or something, you're definitely not at zero. There's a resentment going on there. There's a value difference happening and merging. So you're at least a one, possibly higher, and you're living that's the water you're swimming in every day, and that begins to take a toll on your health over time, and I don't think it's a great way to live. A lot of people get used to it because that's the family they grew up in. Was kind of like, there are three kind of chronic baseline. Was, like three conflicts never got resolved, and there was always kind of this era of like, we're not on the same page, and it doesn't ultimately feel safe to be myself here. That's not zero, right? So, yeah, I think people have to get really honest what you want and what you're willing to fight for here, and can you continue to live like this for how many years longer? And I'm advocating for look, it's two shitty choices. Okay, this is how I frame it in the book. Choice A is, speak your truth and take a risk and know that you might lose the other person, they might go away forever. Choice B is, don't say anything, don't rock that boat and betray yourself and your integrity and just kind of stuff it. Those are two shitty choices. And so people stay stuck, and then they end up kind of unconsciously just taking choice B the path of least resistance, which is like avoiding conflict. So I'm advocating in this book and just my work, take choice A, which it turns into choice C, which is courage through conflict. You gotta have the hard conversation risk being yourself. And yes, you might lose this relationship, but what relationship would you rather lose the other person or your relationship with yourself, right?

Casey O'Roarty 29:55
Well, and the other possibility is you're taking a risk and you're. Upgrading your friggin boat? Like,

Jayson Gaddis 30:02
I think so if you're like, even if you go out and you're alone now, now you're single and you're 50, like, Would you rather be single and have your own back and have a nice boat that you can now invite a partner into? Or would you rather be limping along in the ocean with someone you're trying to change all the time? You know, feeling resentful, I don't know, seems obvious, but yeah, to be alone,

Casey O'Roarty 30:22
yeah? Well, yeah, for sure, especially if it's been a really long you know, if it's a long term relationship, stakes are high. There's

Jayson Gaddis 30:28
mortgages, finances, if someone's financially dependent, you know, I get it there. That's complicated, right?

Casey O'Roarty 30:33
Yeah, but I also see this, there's something to be said too, for having this really courageous conversation and letting your partner know, like, really know, here's where I'm at. And I think that's for some people, you know, it might be the nudge that they need to really say, like, Okay, I like, I will lean into willingness here, because that's how much you matter to me, yeah? But without making that yeah, so relationship, yeah. I

Jayson Gaddis 31:10
know it's uncomfortable, guys, it's it's just gonna be uncomfortable. I don't think there's a way around that. But is that a good enough reason to keep staying stuck where you are? You know? Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 31:20
no, it's not, well, talk about the relational blueprint. What's the relational blueprint?

Jayson Gaddis 31:26
Yeah, so my take on this is because I'm an attachment nerd and a dad, and I watch my kids grow from zero to, you know, 10 and 12, and I study this stuff with my wife for a living. We come into this world with a blueprint. And there's kind of the generational blueprint that we got handed to us about how we do relationships and conflict, and then there's and that's all sort of unconscious, and just in your nervous system, is that,

Casey O'Roarty 31:52
like, what we're conditioned by, what we see, is that what you're talking about

Jayson Gaddis 31:56
that's more it's like nature, nurture. It's more like nature. It's just like, hey, you're handed this template from our lineage. Okay, good luck. And then, and then we end up in this home environment, which is nurture, which is like, Okay, now all the big people are doing relationships like this. They're doing conflict like that. That's what you're getting. 24/7, for 18 years. So in your nervous system is now a foundational sort of Blueprint here about how it's going to go for you later in life, in your adult, most intimate relationships. So if you shut down as a kid, you're going to shut down as an adult. If you went to sugar as a kid or TV, you're going to go to your phone as an adult. Or if you watch the big people do it really violently or aggressively or whatever, and you're resistant to that cool, but you're going to end up strangely, finding someone that's kind of aggressive, potentially. And again, I think that's the universe's weird way of saying, grow. You've got some things to work through and to grow and to heal. And this is the path. This is the beautiful path of partnership, I think. But the relational blueprint isn't doesn't have to be your destiny. You can change it, because we know the brain is plastic, and we can change how we're wired in relationship, though not in isolation, in therapy, so much more, in day to day living with another person, when we practice telling the truth and speaking up and setting boundaries and asking for our needs and all that stuff, that's that's how we change how this stuff is laid down.

Casey O'Roarty 33:23
Yeah, well, and what a gift to our children to be actively, explicitly, transparently in the work of our own growth. I just think that

Jayson Gaddis 33:35
that actually is the hallmark, as you probably know, of secure attachment, is a parent's ability to self, reflect on their own life and make meaning, that's the number one predictor of whether a child is going to be raised in a secure attachment environment.

Casey O'Roarty 33:48
This is so good. Well, first

of all, I just want to talk to you about all my own personal issues. Jason, I own personal

Jayson Gaddis 34:03
issues, Jason.

Casey O'Roarty 34:08
But so you know, coming back to the idea of how we are currently raising boys. So I have a 15 year old, and you know, as a young kid, temperamentally, has been just a tender soul and tender hearted and really confused by the boycott, you know, early in early elementary and now he's in high school, and he, you know, there's a lot of outside influence in the music he listens to and who he follows in the world on social media and stuff. And I'm I can see him kind of experimenting with how to posture, and, yeah, and really trying to bring him back to a more, just a not a more, but just a broad perspective, a broad perspective, where he's looking at things from many angles, but for the parents that are listening with. As you know, teen boys, what do you think are some of the big pieces that we can just remember to drop in and to stay connected to as we try to raise boys that will be partners that are, you know, in it, as far as like, the emotional connection and focusing on relationship, that's

Jayson Gaddis 35:23
a big question. I love it asking this. Well, let's talk about pre teenager boys for just a second, just in case there's any of those listeners. I'm sure there are, as much as possible help the kid maintain connection to his essence, whatever that looks like. Because as he grows, he's going to get so many messages about how to be, how he should be, to fit in, and he will eventually betray himself and to fit in and that that becomes his strategic self, where he's using strategies to get belonging, basically at the expense of his own essence. So, you know, the work of the parent of a boy, I think, is to maintain the boy's connection to his own essence, and doing lots of things early on that promote that, and strengthen it and fortify it, so that when his adolescence comes, it's, you know, he knows, like, like our work with with our kid is, he's very feeling. So we have a sensitive, you know, pretty sensitive, emotional boy, which I love. So, so how it looks is really allowing him to throw tantrums, his full expression, allowing him to follow his values, whatever it is. And the sports culture of boys is very strong. So we don't have a sports kid, so it's a little easier, possibly, for us, because he's not being indoctrinated by the coaches about how to behave on the sports field and then getting shamed by other boys and to act tough and not cry and all that stuff. So there's all those. It's kind of like the activities he's really into are like birding in nature and building stuff and and, uh, right now he's very connected to himself, and he's, you know, in middle school, we'll see how he does, right and in adolescence, though, is is this big test of, Can kids, any kid, stay connected to who they are in the midst of the just chronic demands of how they should be as a teenager, based on, mostly based on their own comparison and fitting in and being liked and all that stuff. Social media doesn't help, right, right? I think social media should be prolonged as long as possible for parents, for kids, boys and girls, yeah. And then the idea with our plan is that we've gotten such a strong foundation in his own body, in his own memory, and also our home is a safe harbor, and it's a launching pad the safest right? So when he gets beaten up by life or challenged or told how to be, it's hopefully not going to feel satisfying to him on a regular basis, and he knows where home is and where home base is to regroup and gather himself again, so parents of teen boys can create the kind of environment where, rather than the peer group being the safest place for the boy to be himself, he can come home and be his messy self. He's going to get angry at you. He's going to shut down. Well, he probably isn't doing that with his friends, so that's actually a positive sign that he's feeling safe enough at home to unload. And can you continue to help him regroup and make meaning out of his challenges with his peers and stuff? And I think it requires a deep focus as a parent on relationships and studying relationships like a beast, because then you have the capacity to validate his experience, not make him wrong. Help him feel deeply seen, right? It's that safe, seen, soothed, supported and challenged. You want him to feel that at home all day long, so he has that to return to and leap from,

Casey O'Roarty 38:53
yeah? Well, and even as you talk about that, I'm realizing it's you know, well, I want to acknowledge too This isn't a gender thing, right? Like, I feel like maybe I'm making this assumption that it's, you know, the men and the boys that aren't in touch. I mean, it's, it's a human thing. And I think that everything you just said about supporting our boys can be is the same with our girls as well. Yeah, totally and just how, and I love the idea the safe harbor and launch pad, you know, and in my experience of some really tough years, doing my own work around staying as connected as possible to myself and staying grounded and calm, even as the shit show of 1516 was happening around me. What the beautiful thing about it was, when she got to the other side of that with support, our relationship hadn't been frayed because I held space as imperfectly. Like everyone. I mean, I've done podcasts about it, so everybody knows imperfectly, but I think there's really something to be said about that, and it's interesting too, because I just did a class this morning, and most of the parents were parents of like, three to six year olds, and it was about back talk and how challenging it can be when you do the things and they're still showing up angry, and they're still showing up mad, and it's like, Oh, wow. What if we reframe like, commitment to showing up as a connected, grounded parent is the purpose? Yeah, instead of oh, if I do this, then they're going to behave a certain way, maybe, or they may just continue to go through the developmental milestones that they're meant to go through. And the work is really even when that's happening, we get to stay centered, grounded, connected to ourselves. So same in the teen years too. And same, maybe same with our partnerships. I mean our romantic partnerships too,

Jayson Gaddis 41:00
yeah, yeah. And I include challenge in my four S's, which is different than Dan Siegel's, because I don't want to create the impression here that I'm saying create some kind of enabling, coddling environment for your teenage boy. I'm not saying that at all. Yeah, he might need to get his ass kicked and pushed out into the job field and say, No, get a job or else, kind of thing. He needs to be also pushed and challenged, and then, when he's younger, to play rough and do all the kind of things. But I'm going for balanced kids. Balanced kids means they're connected to, if we're going to use kind of gender ish languages, like masculine feminine. They're connected to yin and yang inside themselves. They're connected to their nurturing side and their side that wants to play rough. They can do both. They have that kind of range, you know, yeah. And when we put labels on boys and girls, we this is the tricky part. Is what they start thinking a boy means this, and a girl means that, yeah. And

Casey O'Roarty 42:01
I think that's what's played out. That's why, you know, powerful women are seen as bitches, and exactly nurturing men are seen as wimps,

Jayson Gaddis 42:09
because or feminine or whatever. And it's like, God, you guys are such a bummer. Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 42:15
for real. And I feel like the, you know, Gen Z is really challenging, that I think in a lot of ways I love, I love this space, and I know you and I both kind of live in pockets of America that are pretty progressive minded privileged. And, you know, up here in Bellingham, it is this bubble of full self expression and even driving like I've dropped my son off at the high school a couple times this week, and just sitting like dropping him off, and then just sitting in my car and observing, and just so I just love the range of self expression that is that happens in this town, you know, And the permission, it feels like there is permission for our kids, and I don't think they need it either. I feel like this generation is like, I don't need your permission to be who I am. I'm going to be it, and you can just deal with it. And I think that is so it's such an exciting prospect.

Jayson Gaddis 43:16
I agree. Thanks for saying all that. I'm so with you. Yeah, so

Casey O'Roarty 43:20
I could talk to you all day long, tell us about where people can get the book. Well, is there anything else you want to say about your book? I know I kind of took us all over the place, but anything you want to leave listeners with about your book and then tell us where they can find it and where they can find you Sure?

Jayson Gaddis 43:37
Yeah, thanks. I'll just say the reminder here is that, in my experience, successful relationships all have one thing in common, and that's the ability and willingness to work through conflict. And we all have it. We all go through it. There's nothing wrong with you if you're scared and don't know how. And that's why I created this guidebook, is because I wanted to normalize this and I wanted to make it very accessible, so it's science and nerdy, but it's also street level, so that you can pick up a tool and try it on your partner tomorrow, and hopefully see some kind of change. And yeah, I feel psyched that I think this is going to help a lot of parents, a lot of people, possibly even teenagers someday. Yeah, so you can order the book and all the places you can even go request it at your local indie bookstore. It's out October 5, and you can go to getting to zerobook.com if you want some free goodies along the way, or to take a conflict quiz, that quiz will be ready October 5.

Casey O'Roarty 44:35
Good. Yeah. Looking forward to that. And then my final question that I ask all my guests is, what does joyful courage mean to you?

Jayson Gaddis 44:45
Well, I kind of picture myself like, like being more upright and expanding my chest to meet my life, all the challenges of my life, and that feels like a really good feeling in my. Body right now, and a good aspiration for me. I

Casey O'Roarty 45:03
love that. So beyond the book, just briefly, what else? Where can people find you? Follow your work, your podcast.

Jayson Gaddis 45:12
Yeah, I'm very active on Instagram right now at Jason gaudus, J, a, y, s O, N, G, A, D, D, I S, and I'm active on other social accounts, but Instagram is probably my main place. And relationshipschool.com is the host of our podcast. That hosts our podcast, of course, on all the podcast channels, Spotify, Google Play and Apple podcasts. It's just the relationship school podcast. Do you have courses and things I know you're a coach, yeah. So I train relationship coaches. We've certified about 100 relationship coaches all over the world now, and it's pretty amazing what we what these people go through. And then I have a course that I call the deep psychology of intimate relationships. That's kind of that class that you never got in high school or college on how relationships work and how to do them. Well, that's like kind of our signature course. So you can find that on the relationship school's website. Okay,

Casey O'Roarty 46:04
awesome. Listeners, all of those links will be in the show notes. Jason, thank you so much for spending time with me.

Jayson Gaddis 46:09
Yeah, thanks for hanging out with me. Great questions, and I really appreciate what you're up to in the

Casey O'Roarty 46:20
world. Okay, thanks again for listening. If you feel inspired and you haven't already, will you please do me a favor and head over to Apple podcast and leave a review. We're working hard to stand out and make a massive impact on families around the globe. Your review helps joyful courage to be seen by ever more parents seen and listened to notes for today's show. Can be found on my website. Joyful courage.com/podcast/two, 95 big thanks to my amazing daughter, Rowan, for getting those notes and links together for all of you, and huge gratitude to my podcast editor, Chris man from pod shaper, for everything he does to keep the show sounding so amazing for your ears, that's it from me this week, I encourage you all to practice finding your Beth, following it into your body, taking the balcony seat and trusting that everything's gonna be okay. Love you.

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