Eps 457: Healthy rites of passage for teen boys with Luke Entrup

Episode 457

Luke Entrup is here today to talk about healthy rites-of-passage for our teen boys.  

Luke explains what rites-of-passage are, why they’re important for our teens, and what adolescents get out of these rites-of-passage: a healthy connection to themselves and to their community.  We dig into how gender affects these rites-of-passage and how we can create spaces where all genders are celebrated.  We touch on toxic masculinity and how we can redefine what masculinity is and means today.  I ask Luke if he thinks teenage boys are as hesitant to open up as we think, and he shares what they do at his Father-Son Connection Experiences. We finish today talking about accepting and trusting the kid that you have.

Guest Description

Luke in a Leadership and Men’s Coach. Luke believes that it is vital to create healthy rites-of-passage for boys and men in a culture that has become less conscious of the importance of these experiences. One of the ways he does this is through a program called The Father-Son Connection Experience. This program is rites-of-passage experience for boys, ages 10-14, and their father figures and is designed to help boys navigate the shift from childhood to the teen years and deepen the bond between fathers and sons.

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Takeaways from the show

  • What are rites-of-passage? 
  • Rites-of-passage can be uncomfortable
  • What do we get from these rites-of-passage? 
  • Does gender play into this?  How can we expand those boxes? 
  • What is male identity today?  In the future? 
  • Is masculinity toxic?  How do we define what masculinity is today? 
  • “One eye in, one eye out” 
  • What to do if you’re feeling disconnected from your teen son 
  • Who can teens open up to, besides their parents? 
  • Accepting and trusting the kid that you have

What does joyful courage mean to you

One of the things we teach the boys about courage and bravery is that it’s not the absence of fear, it’s feeling the fear and doing it anyway, right?  So the idea of courage is making space to both be afraid and to step through, and there’s often joy on the other side of doing something courageous.



Luke’s Website 

Luke’s Podcast: Crazy Wisdom

Luke’s Next Father-Son Connection Experience 

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Casey O'Roarty, Luke Entrup

Casey O'Roarty 00:03
Hey, welcome to the joyful courage podcast a place for inspiration and transformation as we try and keep it together, while parenting our tweens and teens. This is real work people. And when we can focus on our own growth, and nurturing the connection with our kids, we can move through the turbulence in a way that allows for relationships to remain intact. My name is Casey already, I am your fearless host. I'm a positive discipline trainer, space holder coach and the adolescent lead at Sproutsocial. I am also the mama to a 20 year old daughter and 17 year old son walking right beside you on this path of raising our kids with positive discipline and conscious parenting. This show is meant to be a resource to you and I work really hard to keep it real, transparent and authentic so that you feel seen and supported. Today is an interview and I have no doubt that what you hear will be useful to you. Please don't forget sharing truly is caring. If you love today's show, please pass the link around snap a screenshot posted on your socials or texted to your friends. Together we can make an even bigger impact on families all around the globe. I'm so glad that you're here. Enjoy the show.

Casey O'Roarty 01:26
Yay, listeners. Welcome back to the joyful courage Podcast. I'm glad you're here. My guest today is Luke entropy. Luke is a leadership and men's coach who believes that it is vital to create healthy rites of passages for boys and men in a culture that has become less conscious of the importance of these experiences. One of the ways he does this is through a program called the Father Son connection experience. This program is a rites of passage experience for boys ages 10 to 14. And their father figures and is designed to help boys navigate the shift from childhood to the teen years and deepen the bond between fathers and sons. Hi, Luke. Welcome to the pod.

Luke Entrup 02:11
Hey there, Casey. Thanks for having me. Love the show and love what you're up to.

Casey O'Roarty 02:15
Yeah, yay. Well, can you start us off with a little bit more about your story of doing what you do? Have you found yourself here?

Luke Entrup 02:24
Of course, yeah, actually, let's go back in time, back to when I was actually a teenager. That's probably where that story starts. Okay. When I was a teenager, I was an actor. It was like my thing. I love doing it. I basically like grew up on stage, it was just like a major passion for me. And then when I hit about like 19, it was just very clear that was like no longer the thing to do in my life. It was no longer my passion. I didn't really want to do it. And I was a bit lost for several years. Kind of like directionless, not really sure where my life was headed. I was like, dropped out of college was traveling around and my father invited me to a men's weekend, he said, Hey, like, Come join me for the weekend, we're going to hang out with some other guys. And maybe this will help you kind of, you know, help you at this stage in your life. And it profoundly changed my life, I spent, you know, essentially it was just three days in the woods with 80 men, as a 22 year old, young guy. And being surrounded by dudes that were living lives of passion. They knew what they were up to in the world, they were like open hearted, they were really good fathers, they were just alive in their life and their mission. And it really, really impacted me in a deep way. And this was basically my rite of passage into manhood, I can pretty clearly say, you know, I went in a boy, and I came out a man. And so that pretty as you can imagine, like, as a 22 year old to be surrounded by so many incredible mentors, right? And it shaped me pretty deeply. And it's been part of what I've wanted to get back all these many years later, is creating these types of experiences for boys in their journey towards manhood and becoming good men. So,

Casey O'Roarty 04:05
I mean, is there anything better than a transformational workshop, I just like dropping in with people like that, and having the invitation at such a young age. I mean, for me, it was really after having both my kids and worlds colliding and deciding to become a life coach. And part of that process was, you know, doing these really profound deep dives with groups of people in community. And I mean, those are my favorite spaces. Those are my favorite spaces and rarely, you know, it's usually predominantly women. So I love knowing that there are places and spaces for men to be able to come and get vulnerable and really look inward and do that work that doesn't seem to be readily available for men in our society.

Luke Entrup 04:56
Yeah, you know, I think it's when I look at it, it's you know, that it's spirits. For me, there's a moment in the one that I described back, you know, at age 22, when I was in the middle of the woods around a fire with a bunch of men that were like, really, you know, fierce and alive and like, that's baked into our DNA, something in me was just like, had this deep sense of like belonging and home. And, you know, this is the way that our ancestors did it for all throughout time, the men would go off and hunts and be around the fire and separate from the community and get kind of restored and rejuvenated and, you know, support each other and challenge each other and then come back with gifts back to the community, and the women would do the same thing. We need these places of retreat and separation and time in nature, to get recharged in ways that are, you know, as you say, there's like a, there's a depth to it. It's one thing to like, go on a fishing trip. Yeah, what I also love to do, and it's another thing to be challenged by someone that can see some part of you that could be deeper, right? Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 06:00
that's amazing. So talk a little bit about rites of passage, I realized when I was reading the Bible, at one point, I said rites of passages. So rites of passage, what to you is a rite of passage. And why do you feel like they're important for us, you know, to bring to our kids and our teens? Yeah, well, I

Luke Entrup 06:21
mean, especially as children, children are constantly growing and changing, right, and they're hitting these different developmental marks. And there's a couple of really important ones, obviously, like the early ones birth, that's a rite of passage, of course, right. And we celebrate Yeah, we celebrate that as a culture, we have ceremonies around that there are some other ones like going to school is a bit of a rite of passage. And there's usually some ritual involved with that. The other one that is less kind of celebrated, but is the passage from early childhood into adolescence, right, the body is changing, puberty happens. And in the old days, the elders and the uncles and the wisdom keepers would take those that are hitting puberty away for a bit, and they would teach them about what it means to become a man or to become a woman. And there was some sort of ceremony that marked it. And this essentially, is a rite of passage where you're moving from one way of being into a new way. And there are people there that help shepherd that, that make it more intentional, so that there's more clarity about what you're stepping into. There's another very important passage, which is the passage from, you know, kind of adolescence into adulthood. And this is kind of the classic one, this is what I had, right? You are no longer a boy, you're now a man. And in a lot of the traditions around the world that live closer to the land, this is like, you go out and you do a vision, quest, a vision fast, or you go kill a lion, or you, you know, there's things that happen that say, you're no longer a child, you're now an adult, and there's people that will help you figure out what it means to be a man or a woman or, you know, an adult in this community. So we've lost that the chain was broken. And what we're doing is trying to reintroduce that so that we were raising humans that have a healthy sense of connection to themselves of service to the community have a sense of connection to themselves, like a deep connection, they've spent enough time with themselves to know who they are and where they're headed. And that's really fundamentally that's what a rite of passage is, it's facing some part of ourselves, it usually involves connection to nature, it usually involves some level of discomfort, and it definitely involves being held by people that have already been there. And so you know, that's essentially what it is. And we can set up these experiences for our children, you know, to have this at any point along these important inflection points.

Casey O'Roarty 08:41
Yeah, well, and I'm hearing you talk about ritual and ceremony. And I'm hearing you talk about like, especially in that adolescent to adulthood, the act of moving through something right, like you said, the discomfort the proving to yourself, or discovering parts of yourself that really only come to life, when we're confronted by a challenge or an opportunity. And being intentional. I think there's a lot of things that we move through, like first heartbreak and, you know, stepping on stage, I mean, that was that came naturally. I don't know if it came naturally to you, but it was just kind of a part of the fabric of who you were growing up and for another kid, right? That's a big moment, to take the stage and be willing to move through and find the courage to be and do something that there might be some fear around. And I love the idea of being intentional in the creation and naming it right. Like you get to go do this thing. And here's what it's about. So talk a little bit and because we're talking about, you know, boys and men, and just for listeners sake, like how that you know, the gender box is a thing too, right. So, expanding identity and I was talking actually To my teammate in my work, and she has a non binary child. And I was asking her, I was like, you know, and I'm doing this interview, and with this guy, we're going to talk about rites of passage for boys. And, you know, the father figures and I want to be really conscious in my languaging. Just around highlighting that, you know, there are trans boys, there are trans fathers, you know, what I'm just talking about? And I don't know where that fits into the conversation. I just feel like I need to say it, right. Because it's, you know, people that are listening who have trans kids, and the boxes that we have put men in, maybe not, you know, I mean, I think it's a relatively ish new thing. How do we expand the boxes, as our boys are coming up, and I have a son, he's 18. And, you know, he's very stereotypical boy. And he's very, like, these also has this really beautiful softness, and affection and lovingness, even as he's six for 200 pounds of solid muscle, you know, and how do you as you work with boys and men create a space where all of that is celebrated? Right? Yeah.

Luke Entrup 11:13
Yeah. I mean, I just love the question. It's such an important one. You know, we're we live in a time where male identity is in a massive change. It's just really, there's a rapid transition from what it used to be what being a man used to be to what it is today. And yeah, absolutely what it will be next year in the years to come. It's we're in this incredible time where we really got to decide what does it mean to be a man? What does it mean to be a woman, a human, a non binary person, like there's so much about identity is just we're in this fantastic time where the boxes are getting shredded. And we also live in a time when I say masculinity, what's the first thing that most people associated with toxic toxic, right, it's yeah, that there is a lot of feelings and energy about the harm that unconscious wounded masculinity and men have caused that we're now in an era where that's slowly beginning to get cleaned up. Right, right, right. And I just hold this belief that for those that identify as men, and that really one of the most important things that we need in our time, is healthy masculinity we need it's not something to put away, it's something to celebrate, it's actually part of the solution around finding true quality and healing across the genders and just, you know, putting our culture on more stable ground.

Luke Entrup 12:41
We need to be raising a new generation of men who understand that power is about empowering ourselves and those around us and not power over its power. When right and part of what we teach around this is this concept of one eye in and one eye out, right, like part of what healthy masculinity is having awareness and sensitivity to what's happening in my own heart, in my mind, my emotions, but also being able to navigate the world and get things done and move, do all the things that men have done about accomplishment and protection, and all the things that are still needed, but having enough sensitivity about our impact on others and tracking the internal landscape. And really, that for me, this is like, let's redefine masculinity and what it means that's it, that there is great power and a great force in that and that we're not turning away from that because of the sins of our grandfathers, but we're actually using it to clean it up. Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 13:39
and I love how you put all of that. I mean, I definitely I have a daughter and I have a son and my daughter is she's 20 You know, she's kind of like a armchair feminist will say she's still developing, but she's loud about it, but not super, like, there hasn't been a lot of study. And so she really gets on her brother's case. And it's like a small little micro reflection of a lot of what's happening, you know, like, the pain of one gender really, like being just kind of spat at the other. And then, you know, I'm watching this dynamic happen. And really, I want my son to be able to understand where his sister's coming from, but it's hard to get there and their siblings, but when there's this, like the delivery is so you know, painful. And so anyway, like, it's a really interesting time to be raising a son, let alone a big, white privileged, you know, in so many ways, son so anyway, that's kind of a rabbit hole that we don't need to go down. But, you know, I just really appreciate how you're talking about, you know, healthy masculinity. So, healthy masculinity, one is paying attention to our inner landscape and what's happening internally, which I think is so useful. And so many of I mean, it's like work for all of us, right? And recognizing impact, I think is such a key piece to this too. And I have a lot of clients that are definitely struggling with their relationships with their teen boys. And I wonder if it's, you know, so I can hear in the space like, oh, well, boys don't really open up that much. Or if this is a boy thing, and I don't buy that, and temperament also matters. So what do you see in your work and the dynamic between parents and their teen boys? That could use some reframing or some tweaking? Yeah,

Luke Entrup 15:37
well, I mean, we live in a time where isolation and you know, feeling disconnected is just it's rampant. It's people are, you know, especially since the pandemic made it much worse. And of course, the world is opening back up. But we're living with this feeling of not really having a deep sense of belonging, we screen so much attention on screens is leading to just severe isolation. And, you know, I think it's really impacting our boys, it's impacting them deeply. One of the things I can say, this is, you know, part of my view of like, what's the role of a parent or in this case, like, for me, what's my role as a father, it's to snap my children out of their every day myopic world, and show them something else about the world themselves, different ways of being and thinking. And, you know, I think this is part of the solution, right, is when we're feeling disconnected from our sons, and they are slower to open and they're, you know, they're wired a little differently, where they're not, you know, in culture differently, where the emotions aren't quite as available, and the connection is a little slower. The best thing that I found to do, I take my boy out on backpacking trips, right, so we go out into the wilderness together, and we, the screens are not available. And we're just, we're doing something, we're seeing some new part of the world where there's some challenge, there's an opportunity for wonderment and awe, there's an opportunity for fresh perspective. And what's left is inevitably every night we're sitting around making our dinner and we're just, you know, around the fire, and we're connecting with each other in a very deep way. And it's hard to do in the day to day grind. But I really do think this is where like vacations and rites of passage and getting outside and going, even if it's just to the park for a walk on a Saturday together, you know, going to the beach, or whatever it is, whatever your thing is, to make the time to just snap out of the routine, right and drop in a little deeper. There's also this thing there was this author, his name was Robert Bly, and he wrote about men's psychology back in like the 90s. He wrote this thing,

Casey O'Roarty 17:40
way back way back way back in the 1900s.

Luke Entrup 17:45
Yes, exactly. In the late 1900s. He wrote about the difference in his mind between like masculine and feminine connection, right. And he talked about the feminine in all of us. And maybe this is more true for women, but at least the feminine in me, and each of us, that part of us that's feminine, connects by facing each other in a circle and sharing our heart, the masculine in US connects through walking side by side, he said in the forest, right, and sometimes no words are spoken, there's a way of being walking forward together through the world, that that is the masculine form of a deeper connection. Right? So it's just to know, like, boys open up differently, they open up like some of the times I have the deepest conversations with my son is when we're driving somewhere, we're like moving through time and space. He's sitting next to me. And he opens up about something. Right. So it's a little different than like a table, a dining room table conversation that I might have with my daughter.

Casey O'Roarty 18:44
Yeah. And it's interesting, because one of the things I wanted to say and talk to you about what you just basically answered is, I think we have an A, we, and when I say we, I think probably the moms in the crowd, have a little bit of an attachment to what relationship should look like, right? And we are so we women, mothers, it's like second nature for us to be face to face. Let's get into it. Tell me how you feel, you know, let me hold the energetic space for you. And we want our boys to be expressive and open up and let us in and what I'm hearing you say is, it might be service to us to let go of how it looks and redefine, you know how we're holding good relationship with our boys. Right? Yeah,

Luke Entrup 19:34
I mean, obviously every every kid is a little different. But I like what you're pointing out. There is some truth to that, that it's finding the style that works for them. And I also I mean, this is kind of where I go back to, you know, like, I have an expectation like in my family like we all have therapists, right? It's just a thing like so gray is not an option like everybody, you can pick your therapist, your we all go to therapy, right and so there is a thing About I do, I actually hold some level of boundary around like we do face the things in us that feel uncomfortable or that we're sad about or that we're afraid of, we have support, and we do open up with people around that. And hopefully, as a parent, I'm one of those people. But I've also helped set it up, ideally, that I'm not the only one and that there's enough adults around my kids that, you know, they will be opening up to these, you know, kind of their council of wise people that we've set up for them.

Casey O'Roarty 20:30
Yeah, I love that normalization of, you know, the full array of being a human being really, right. So talk to me about the rites of passage program that you put on, or is it a secret? No, no, see, I'm

Luke Entrup 20:47
happy to share, it's not one of those. So it's called the Father Son connection experience. And it's 10 to 14 year old boys and their father figures. And it's a weekend experience where we really focus on deepening the bond between the two of them. And it takes place in an outdoor setting like our next one, it's in the redwood forests of Sonoma County, California. And, you know, it has some elements of like, we do what we call training around the path of warriorship. So like really allowing the boys to experiment and play around with like, certain types of like meditation and some light martial arts and a little bit of like physical training, we also do a big chunk around emotional intelligence and emotional awareness, then they spent a lot of time out in the forest with their dads on one on one walks, getting a chance to really ask questions and just connect in this different way. And then on the last night, we do a ceremony where it's a rite of passage ceremony where we mark the passage from childhood and adolescence, there's some gifts and some celebration. And before we send them home on the last morning, I have a certified sex educator who comes in and helps open a discussion about changing bodies and puberty, consent and touch, and then we send them off on a last hike with their dad basically, right. So then the dad kind of takes it from there, but we help them open up that conversation, which, you know, I've been doing this for a minute. And usually, that's one of the big takeaways is like, I had no idea how to really have a deeper conversation about sex and intimacy with my son. Oh, you guys give me a great runway to do that. And yeah, as parents, we don't want to be the only ones that are turning to for that. But we want to be there if they're ready to open up for us. So that's kind of the intention of that. So yes,

Casey O'Roarty 22:32
yeah. Good. Thank you for that. What do you notice about the dads that you work with around? You know, they walk into your program? I mean, it's a rite of passage for them as well.

Luke Entrup 22:44
Yeah. Right. Very astute on your part yet, they are having a full on experience themselves, which is really great. And part of what we do is dad circles every day where we connect them where they get a chance to really kind of crowdsource and hear from each other and support each other. And they're also working through all their challenges of like, wanting their boy to show up a certain way on an experience like this. And helping them really appreciate the truth of who their son is, and letting them see the reality and really support and honor. However, they're showing up, right? Not to mention, there's this thing when I know for me, before I started doing this work, I was not around a lot of early teen boys. And for me, that was the most painful time in my life, almost right, like sixth grade I can remember was just the worst, right? And so you're around that kind of milieu. And you just start noticing all those feelings come back yourself about how uncomfortable that area of life was, for most of us. Yeah, you're right. It is like a full on experience for the dads. And so we really support them. We do some calls ahead of time. And you know, we're there for some follow on, but we hope at the end of it, right? Like, the idea is that the two of them have a deep experience together that has strengthens the bond. And inevitably, the fathers show up with more presence and more capacity as fathers or father figures for the boys.

Casey O'Roarty 24:05
So what do you see in the context of that father son relationship? What do you see this rite of passage experience that you're creating for them? What's the problem that you're trying to solve?

Luke Entrup 24:15
The problem I'm trying to solve with this is it's twofold. One is a lack of meaningful, deep connection between the father and son. This very much came from my own experience of like, you know, I have a son and I just felt him starting to grow up and this feeling of like, Ah, I'm losing my baby. I can feel him pulling away from me, right? He's pulling away from me, and he needs to do that. I know, he needs to do that. But I need a new way to connect with him. And I had this vision of getting all my buddies together around a fire and teaching him the ways of like, being a good man in the world. And that's really where this came from is a need to be connected to him more deeply. And the other problem that it's solving is a larger problem, which is, you know, the need in our culture to have, again, healthy masculinity and having a place where we're helping boys harness that raw power that they carry and help them really use that for good rather than, you know, hurting people with it. Yeah.

Casey O'Roarty 25:24
And you said this, and I want to come back to it, that work around accepting the kid that you have, and how they show up and accept. And I talk a lot about this with parents that I work with, as well, accepting who our kids are today, and passing on through word and deed and energy, that acceptance in a way that is felt by the child. Right. Talk about a little bit more about that.

Luke Entrup 25:55
Yeah, I mean, it's very much, we all have our hopes and dreams for what type of human we hope to be raising. And there's usually some sort of gap between what we hope and dream, I just have this for myself as a parent, frankly, like, I thought it would be a certain type of parent and I am a different type of parent than my ideals live up to. And there's this constant tension between who I wanted to be as a parent and who I actually am, right. And there's like deep humility in that, like, wow, I'm really, you know, I thought it'd be better at this, I think that's a very common experience that a lot of parents have, right. And there's something about that, that we kind of transfer that onto our kids a bit like there's a gap between who we want them to be and who they actually are. And, you know, for me, I don't know that I have some sort of great gem of wisdom around this other than, you know, the way we support the men is, there's like a healthy tension between calling the best out in our children and having good boundaries with them, and checking them when they need to be checked, but also really seeing them for who they are, and being curious about it. So for the dads, sometimes we'll do these walks in the woods, where the instruction is, you're just interviewing your son, about their world, your job on this walk is to get deeply into how they see the world, what's important to them, what are they concerned about in their life, and you have no advice to give? You have no recommendations. It's all just based on curiosity. And sometimes we'll can them a sheet of questions and like, you know, basically say, read your only thing as you just read these questions. Yeah, it's retraining them around curiosity, rather than, you know, kind of instruction. Well,

Casey O'Roarty 27:30
and I'm guessing, because there's a lot of parents, they need the handout, right? Because it is a real big rewiring to just sit and listen to understand. My kids would say, like, you know, sometimes you listen, and you're looking for what to tell me, I'm doing wrong, right? Like, or I don't need you to fix it, or I don't need you to make it about me. And it's something that I support parents with to like, that listening without judgment that being inside of being curious. Right? Just for the sake of being curious. It's such a powerful message to send that I just want to know you. Right. And the best place to go for that is straight to the source. Yeah. Right. So I love that,

Luke Entrup 28:16
you know, there's a time and place for everything right? You know, sometimes we just are so heavy on the advice. And sometimes, I mean, I know I'm guilty of this, I'm sure maintain the opportunity for genuine curiosity and understanding. And so, you know, if we can exercise the curiosity muscle a bit more than it's not to say we never give our kids advice. Yeah, for sure. It just helps them. It's to your point about Yeah, just bridging the gap a little bit. Do the people

Casey O'Roarty 28:41
that come through your program? Do they get to stay in touch with each other? Do you have like after program programs? Yeah,

Luke Entrup 28:47
yeah, we're trying to build that out a little more. They're always welcome to come back. And we do some follow on calls. And the boys, you know, kind of organically have often swapped numbers and stayed in touch that way. And then I just coach men, right? So I coach men around fatherhood, I coach men around bouncing back from divorce and breakups and do some relationship coaching as well. So that's also you know, how I've stayed in touch with them as well.

Casey O'Roarty 29:14
What are some of the biggest challenges that the men that come to you are navigating in the context of parenting? Yeah,

Luke Entrup 29:20
I mean, it's a lot of what you've talked about, like, I have no idea how to reach my son, I feel like I don't understand what's happening with him. There's kind of a few different categories. There's the My son is distant, and he's on his screens a lot. I don't really understand what's happening for him in his life. That's one kind of persona. Another one is I have a live wire. I have a very, you know, kind of runs hot, hard to settle. And this is, you know, a version of my boy right, which is kind of would be better suited to just be outside in the forest all day every day out hunting, you know, and roaming the prairies and we'd be much happier doing that than boxed in some sort of form. Are walls. So we get a lot of those to where it's just the need for like a environment for free range kids to be kids and be celebrated in that. So in these sessions, we'll do a lot of just time in the woods with, yeah, places to play and get dirty. And so

Casey O'Roarty 30:17
yeah, I feel like the traditional classroom is designed for kids that don't exist, or, you know, tend to lean more towards the temperament of females. Right, who seemed to have a larger capacity to sit and yeah, be still and not all of them. But I definitely like I'm thinking of, you know, a couple of my clients and a couple of the kids that I taught back a million years ago, when I was a school teacher, I remember one kid in particular, he struggled, he didn't want to write, he didn't like holding pencils. He was brilliant. He knew everything about science, everything about animals, everything about nature, and in the end, became an extreme kayaker. Right. I live up in the Pacific Northwest. So he was a boater and I remember all the adults in the school being so concerned about this kiddo, like, how is he ever going to dot dot dot, this kid lived closer to source closer to God than any of us. I watched a YouTube video about him talking about being on this one section of river up here that it's just all white, like you look at this section of river, it is all intense Whitewater, and you know, the interviewer is asking him about like, what is it like in your head, and he is like, there is nothing happening in my head. I'm so present in the moment. And when I think about that kid, you know, he unfortunately, we lost him, he passed away in a boating accident. But his short life, especially that peace after you know, being contained in the school classroom, the level of life and awareness and presence, he traveled all over the world voting. And you know, I think about my clients who have kids, like you said, like your kid who is so much more served out in nature, man, and we keep telling, like, just get through this, you know, the school thing. And it's so painful to say that because I also want to be like, Why? Why are we doing that to these kids?

Luke Entrup 32:18
Well, it's interesting. So I'll tell you a little bit about my son's journey. This might be helpful for some, like he really struggled in a traditional classroom. Yeah, we even had him in like a Waldorf. It was like, not even traditional. And he just clicked it was really, really hard for him. And, you know, we got some help around, like, Alright, what's going on with the wiring here. And the person that did the assessment was like, look, it's as I said, like, he is wired to be roaming outside all day, every day. So thankfully, I live in a place in Sonoma County, California, where there's an outdoor nature school. So he spent three years in the forest along the Russian River on this, like Native American land where there's literally the classroom was outside, the academics were still fairly rigorous, but he was outside all day, every day. And then last year, you know, he's 12. Now. So he finished sixth grade. And he said, I want to now figure out how to be inside in a normal classroom, again, I want to be around more kids my age. And so it really came from him that he said, Alright, I want to be ready for high school. I know, I've got a couple of years to really dial in my, you know, traditional student ship. And so now he's back in a classroom. Thankfully, it's still, you know, a unique learning environment with a smaller classroom, but he has completely thrived, his academics are there, you know, it's like, I think we really do need to listen to each kid and trust

Casey O'Roarty 33:38
them. Like I hear a lot of trust that you had for him that he could make a call that was right for him. You know, I my own story, when my oldest two had to opt out completely, because of the environment was doing harm to her. And it was so against, like, what, what do you hope to hold up? You know, this shouldn't? Why is this so hard for you, and it rubbed so hard against my narrative of what it should look like. And she has taught me, she's been on the podcast, my listeners know her well. She really has taught me to like, trust my kids, like, we get to trust our kids. Yeah. And to also let go of the idea that the narrative that we hold, is the right narrative for them, like they have their own narrative and their own journey. And I love that you are creating something. And hopefully, like, Can you do something for the older boys too? Because I would say my husband and my kid up for that, for sure.

Luke Entrup 34:34
Yeah. Well, as I said, it's a slightly different thing, right? So the 10 to 14, it's very much about connecting to dad and connecting to community and finding a sense, but once they hit kind of 17 to 20, then it's actually an initiation into manhood. And this is the time to actually do it less about with the dads and to do that solo journey with some elders and mentors. I could just send them to do these kinds of things where we'll take them out and do some kind of version of like a vision quest club that's, you know, where they really are facing some part of themselves having their own hero's journey. So that thing, they come out a man, right go in a boy and come out of man. And that's idea. There's some great organizations that are also doing that work, you know, the mankind project being one of them that does kind of introducing initiation back for this stage of life. Yeah.

Casey O'Roarty 35:21
Cool. Yay. Thank you for what you do in the world. So important. It's so powerful. Do you have any final thoughts before we wrap up this conversation?

Luke Entrup 35:32
No, just thanks for having me on. I really enjoyed the conversation and love what you're up to.

Casey O'Roarty 35:36
Thank you. Well, my final question that I ask everybody is What does joyful courage mean to you? Well,

Luke Entrup 35:43
you know, one of the things we teach the boys about courage and bravery is it's not the absence of fear. It's feeling the fear and doing it anyway. Right. So this idea of courage is that we're making space to both be afraid and still step through. And I would say, you know, there's often joy on the other side of doing something courageous.

Casey O'Roarty 36:03
Yeah. Beautiful. Thank you. Where can people find you and your workshop and follow what you're doing?

Luke Entrup 36:09
Yeah. So the event that I was describing is Father, Son, connection.com. That's the Father Son experience. I also have my own website, Lu contrib.com. And you can follow me on Instagram. I also have my own podcast called Crazy Wisdom, where we explore some of the more interesting places around personal growth and development and just some like wacky things around meditation and yoga and parenting, so check out Crazy Wisdom.

Casey O'Roarty 36:34
Yes, and all the places where you listen to podcasts. Beautiful. Thanks so much for being here.

Luke Entrup 36:39
Thank you so much.

Casey O'Roarty 36:46
Thank you so much for listening in today. Thank you to my spreadable partners, as well as Chris Mann and the team at pod shaper for all the support with getting the show out there and making it sound good. Check out our offers for parents with kids of all ages and sign up for our newsletter to stay connected at B spreadable.com. Tune back in later this week for our Thursday show and I'll be back with another interview next Monday. Peace

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