Eps 471: Resetting unhealthy screen time habits with Michael Jacobus

What does joyful courage mean to you 

It’s funny because I’ve used that phrase even before I’d ever heard of your podcast.  I’ve used it in discussions with parents about having this dinner table conversation that, “starting next weekend, we’re going to have a new normal.”  It takes joyful courage to do that.  It takes courage regardless, but it should be joyful.  It should be, “This is beneficial to all of us.  This is good news!”  This isn’t punishment.  This isn’t “you’re in trouble.”  This isn’t even addressing what they’re doing online – that’s a different module.  This is just addressing sleep.  So be courageous; all the shame & embarrassment was yesterday.  Starting today we’re going to have a new normal, and it’s going to take joyful courage to get there.

 

Resources

Reset Summer Camp

“Can You See Me?”  video 

Reset Summer Camp online course for parents 

Michael’s website & books 

Reset Summer Camp on Facebook 

Reset Summer Camp on X

Reset Summer Camp on Instagram 

Reset Summer Camp on YouTube 

Reset Summer Camp on LinkedIn

Looking to make screen agreements with your teen? Download our helpful guide here.

Subscribe to the Podcast

Transcription

SUMMARY KEYWORDS
kids, parents, camp, programme, day, feel, campers, summer camp, year, sleep, home, screen, phone, family, reset, world, devices, live, beach, instagram
SPEAKERS
Casey O'Roarty, Michael Jacobus

Casey O'Roarty 00:02
Hey, welcome to the joyful courage podcast a place for inspiration and transformation as we try and keep it together. While parenting our tweens and teens. This is real work people and when we can focus on our own growth, and nurturing the connection with our kids, we can move through the turbulence in a way that allows for relationships to remain intact. My name is Casey already I am your fearless host. I'm a positive discipline trainer, space holder coach and the adolescent lead at Sprout double. I am also the mama to a 20 year old daughter and 17 year old son walking right beside you on this path of raising our kids with positive discipline and conscious parenting. This show is meant to be a resource to you and I work really hard to keep it real, transparent and authentic so that you feel seen and supported. Today is an interview and I have no doubt that what you hear will be useful to you. Please don't forget sharing truly is caring. If you love today's show, please pass the link around snap a screenshot posted on your socials or texted to your friends. Together we can make an even bigger impact on families all around the globe. I'm so glad that you're here. Enjoy the show.

Casey O'Roarty 01:23
Hi, everybody. Welcome back to the podcasts. I'm so glad that you're joining us today. My guest is Michael Jacobus. Michael is an internationally recognised author, child development specialist and camp professional. He has an extensive background in youth serving nonprofits, staff training, operations, administration and outdoor education. He is the author of two books for the camp community, the camp directors Survival Guide, and insights and inspirations and a new children's book about summer camp experiences and titled I don't want to go in the summer of 2018. Michael started the world's first clinical summer camp programme for teens and adolescents suffering from unhealthy screentime and social media overuse habits and gaming addiction. It's called reset summer camp for digital detox and life skills. We're going to talk about that today. I am so happy to have you, Michael, welcome to the podcast.

Michael Jacobus 02:24
Thank you very much. I'm happy to be here.

Casey O'Roarty 02:26
So I was a total summer camp kid. So I feel so grateful that my dad was a summer camp kid. And so it was really important to him to offer that experience to his kids. And I mean I took to it. I loved it. I waited all year for camp to come around. And I'm a parent of an 18 year old and a 21 year old. So I'm also in the tension of parenting in the digital age. And man, is it ever tough. So why don't we start off just with you sharing a bit more about your journey towards what you're currently doing with kids and camp? Okay,

Michael Jacobus 03:02
well, I too am a summer camp kid. I started going to summer camp, I think at the age of seven or eight, and went every summer like you until I got too old to be a camper and I became a counsellor and training and then a counsellor and finally a programme director and eventually a camp director. I've been going to summer camps for the last 40 years. I still

Casey O'Roarty 03:23
have dreams about I go to camp in my dreams, but I'm like 50 my age and all the counsellors are 18 It's a little awkward, but I just roll with it. Yeah.

Michael Jacobus 03:33
Yeah, no, I often dream about summer camps. And then when my kids were old enough, they went to camp and then they worked on staff for the camp that I was running, things like that. And one funny story is I worked for church camp, YMCA camps, Boy Scout camps. And my daughter who's now almost 30 was really into the beach and surfing and she now works at a Maritime Institute training dolphins and stuff like that, but cool. One year, we went to like a surf camp on a beach and she had a great time. And the next year, I asked her if she wanted to be on the camp staff again. And she gave me what I call the Pew phase she crinkled her nose and said Is it a boy scout camp? And I said, Yeah, as a matter of fact it is. And she goes, No, that's cool. I'll pass and I said that's too bad. It's in Hawaii. And then she made the face you just made? Oh, wait, wait a minute, oh, we spent nine weeks in Hawaii while I was running that camp and she got to surf and you know, be in the beach all the time. So I have a tonne of summer camp experience. But as a parent, I also have parenting in the digital age experience and my oldest son became addicted to World of Warcraft when he was 14 years old. And there was no such programme to send him to he wasn't so bad that we needed to consider a wilderness programme or something like that. But we really had no idea how to deal with it. We just white knuckled him every single day. It was an argument every single day to get him through middle school in high school. And then in 2018 when every kid in the country seemed to be addicted to fortnight I hate and the World Health Organisation declared gaming disorder as a diagnosable thing. I got together with a therapist friend of mine and started reset. And reset is a full month long digital detox summer camp programme. None of the kids who come to our camp really want to come to our camp. It's much different from traditional camp where you look forward to going next year, before you've left this year. But it's a month long, it's on a university campus. The kids are in dorms, they have roommates, you know, to get a taste of what college life might be like, or living in an apartment on their own might be like, we teach them how to cook, we teach them how to do their own laundry. We have group therapy three mornings a week, we have individual therapy every day. But that's all blended in with a traditional summer camp programme. So we go to the beach, we play volleyball, we play basketball, we do music, and art and drama. You know, we sort of give them the therapy without them realising they're getting the therapy. And then we close our programme with a weekend long family workshop. So we require at least one parent to show up on Friday, and stay till Sunday, to participate in some of the camp activities, participate in a family therapy session, and really just get on the right track to take their kid home. And we follow up with each camper for eight weeks after they've gone home to make sure they've stayed on track.

Casey O'Roarty 06:18
I mean, I explored all around your webpage. I watched the video that you have that's called Can you see me and it brought me to tears. I listen to parents talk about their kids screen use every day. And it's heartbreaking. i We shipped the bed, like we really didn't fully understand what it was that we were bringing into our homes with the accessibility of smartphones. And then social media. I mean, I think a lot of us were dazzled by social media just personally, let alone our kids growing up in this space, where it's so normalised and it feels like it's not necessarily a kid problem as much as it's an access problem, a system problem, an adult problem, and our kids are struggling in that video, just like spoke straight to my heart. Because in so many households, it's to the point what, like parents don't know what to do.

Michael Jacobus 07:22
Yeah, the kid in that video was actually one of our campers. And he's funny. And he's allowed me to share this story that when he first got there, he was begging me every single day to send him home, he didn't want to be here, there's been some mistake, he doesn't really have a problem. And his dad is actually a producer works for in LA for Disney and universal and a few other play. And they volunteered to put that video together after he had completed the programme and got back on track. So we have wonderful results. And super happy parents. But I totally agree with you. We didn't see it coming. It's a family dynamic problem, quite honestly. And I talk to parents every single day, who I use the words embarrassment and shame. They are just filled with both with you know, how did I let that get this bad? How did it happen to me? Why is it my kid, and I'll share with them my story. I have three grown kids, only one of them became addicted. The other two played video games. But when we said hey, it's dinnertime, they turned it off and came to dinner. So it crosses all socio economic boundaries. It's not racial, it's not who you are, you know, it's not your upbringing, or your diet. It just some people's brain chemistry handles addictions differently. And parents have really let go of their parental authority. So many parents today are trying to be their kids pal, instead of their kids parent. And the thing that's most telling me is I'll ask kids at camp, I'll say raise your hand, if you want to still live with your parents when you're 25. nobody raises their hand. And I'll ask the parents full group of parents will say raise your hand if you want your kid to still live with you when they're 25. nobody raises their hand. But I'll say then you need to get a handle on this now. Because if you don't, that's the direction you're going in.

Casey O'Roarty 09:05
Yeah. And you mentioned that kids that you see, or maybe you were talking about your own son, but you know, it's so interesting, because like I have clients where I think there's something about our intolerance to our kids discomfort, right? So the big explosive reactions to conversations about screens or limits on their screens or time to get off the screens, and how hard that is to deal with. Right? And so the easy thing to do is to not deal with it. And then then there's like this, it just feels really messy too. It doesn't feel really clear cut like does my kid have a problem? Like does my kid need something like reset? Or is this just typical teen behaviour? You know, when I talk to my kids, I feel I mean, I've two kids Then the older one was very cagey with her device. And recently said to me, and I've mentioned this on the podcasts, like, I was doing something with her phone, she was, oh my gosh, this is the first time ever, that I don't feel super anxious that you're holding my phone. And she's 20, almost 21. And my son has been way more easygoing about it. Right. And like, you know, we talked like just normalised like, hey, let's compare screen time, because I tried to keep it real. I have my own. I have my own goals with screen time. But I realised as I talked to more parents that that's pretty unique to our family, like it's just become this battleground. Yeah. And I know you do a whole screening process. How do you determine if a kid is the right fit for your programme? Well, what's

Michael Jacobus 10:46
funny is, by the time that parent asks the question of, you know, is my kid addicted? Or, you know, having that issue they already know. And I'll say, you know, are they withdrawn? Are they secretive? Are they excluding themselves from family time family meals? Are their sleep habits, habits terrible? Are they staying up till two or three in the morning, parents usually already have a grasp? Yeah, the screening, we do it for reset, because we are an in person programme is really to weed out anger management kids, or the kids who have other addictions, be it drugs, or alcohol and things that we don't do in our programme. So you fill out I think it's about 30 questions on the application questionnaire, those get reviewed by my clinical staff, who then reach back out to the parents who answered the questions. And they'll set up a phone interview to kind of go over the application. Like, if you answer Yeah, my kid gets angry when I turn off the Wi Fi, well define angry, every kid gets angry, you know, we're okay with kids who get angry if the kid comes at you with a knife that's a little more extreme. And we've had those applications where the kids come at the mom with a knife three or four times and the police had been to the house twice this month. And we're like, that's not what we do. That's an anger management issue. That's a different programme. Yeah. But in general, most kids who apply, get accepted, if they don't, we'll refer them to a different programme or a different kind of therapeutic opportunity. But like I said, most kids aren't excited to come to camp, then it's funny, because it kind of creates a I call it a tribal us against them. Because when they first arrive, nobody wants to be there. They hate their parents for sending them. They hate us for being there. So it's kind of an us against them, which creates a little camaraderie right off the bat. And kids who don't make eye contact and don't speak to each other. Now they have a roommate, somebody they've never met.

Casey O'Roarty 12:33
Yeah, in real life. Yeah,

Michael Jacobus 12:36
that's what real life is like, we actually change the roommate assignments every week, because it's uncomfortable, because life is uncomfortable, you might get a roommate, you've really can't stand, you might get your best friend, but you can only be with that person for a week before we change it up. So we do all that to let them have a taste of what real life is

Casey O'Roarty 12:53
like. Yeah, you give them a little bit of the tension of the world to sit inside of and not have that out. Right as I pick up my little screen. I mean, any doctor's office on the planet right now you walk in, what's everybody doing? It's really uncomfortable to just sit there. Yeah,

Michael Jacobus 13:11
well, and we'll tell the kids when they arrive, nobody is ever going to tell you never to play a video game. Nobody's gonna tell you not to be on social media and not to check your email, because that's just not the reality of the world we live in. We all talk about the healthy balance of getting good sleep, good nutrition, good family time, good school time, good outside time, and other activity time in addition to your screen time, you know, we tell them that this is learn how to get what you want in life camp, not punishment camp. And 20 hours a day on YouTube or on a video game is not going to get you there. Yeah.

Casey O'Roarty 13:50
Well, and you know, I heard you say the people that connect with you typically, yeah, there's this sleep disruption, they are withdrawn. They don't want to engage in the family together time and I'm like, oh, shoot, like, I'm wondering, as are all of you listeners thinking, Oh, God, that's my kid. What are the statistics? I mean, that you know, of right, because there's plenty that's not reported. But what's going on?

Michael Jacobus 14:17
Well, I would say, you know, and it's hard to nail down statistics, because every report, you know, is different. Just from my own experience. I would say at least half the kids in the country have a screentime addiction of some sort. You know, it doesn't have to be an all encompassing addiction. But you know, the real simple thing is if you call your kid down for dinner, to the family dinner that you should all be having not dinner in their rooms, everybody independently, and the kid doesn't respond, slams the door doesn't join you for dinner. That's a problem. If they can't step away from their social media or their gaming long enough to come down and be part of the family event, like a dinner without their phones. Then there's a problem. And the same thing goes true to parents. I tell parents, you have to check your own habits, because you can't tell your kid to be off their phone. If you're on yours. Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 15:08
yeah, that's a big one too. And I think we all get to be ever more honest with ourselves around our own habits and our own modelling for sure. So you get them there. Although I'm thinking to myself, how do we get them? They're like, how do you get a kid? I mean, my 18 year old 642 100 pounds, if I were to say you're doing this thing, and he but even as I say that, I'm thinking to myself, Well, no, there is an energy that we get to hold as the parents. Yeah,

Michael Jacobus 15:34
parental authority is yeah, he and it's something that most parents have given up. Yeah, but I will tell I'll share parents like links to wilderness programmes and links to therapeutic boarding school programmes. They're way longer. They're way more expensive. And I'll say show these links to your kid and show them our page and tell them you're going somewhere. So pick one, inevitably, they'll pick ours because it's the shortest. It's also co Ed. It's near a beach. I mean, it's not prison. Right, right. Right. Right. Right. It's still a fun summer camp environment. But I encourage parents to actually be the parent. And when they say, How do I get my kid to go? I'm like, you're the parent. Yeah. You tell them you're going.

Casey O'Roarty 16:12
Yeah. And sometimes that's easier said than done, Michael? Oh, yeah,

Michael Jacobus 16:16
for sure. We have at least one kid a year, who misses the opening day because they refused to get on the plane, she didn't get in the car, whatever. And that created another battle. And I tell parents about battles all the time. Because when you start having screentime limitations at home, you know, we recommend that no devices in the bedroom, no computers, no phones, get a $4 Walmart alarm clock, you know, and charge that those devices in the master bedroom closet with a padlock on the door, if necessary. And you'll get the outrage, you'll get the tantrum, it's okay. It'll pass. Yeah, you just got to be a firm parent, and live it yourself. You can't limit your kids screen time and then be on your phone while they're you're telling them not to. So, you know, if I tell the kids at camp, you know, every single day, if you get nothing at all, from this camp, you need to understand how important sleep is not even about screen time. But we send the kids to bed at camp at 930 with lights out at 10. And we wake them up at 630. So that's

Casey O'Roarty 17:14
that's your schedule. Yeah, I

Michael Jacobus 17:15
love that schedule. That's eight hours. But no kid who comes to camp is sleepy at 930 because they're all used to being up till two in the morning eating Doritos and drinking Gatorade. Yeah, we don't have any between snacks other than some fruit here and there. Yeah, because we're on a university campus, we go to the dining commons for three meals a day, or we'll do sub sandwiches if we're at the beach or whatever. But we have a really set dietary plan and a really set sleeping plan, neither of which directly affect screen time. They just affect the time you can't be on your screen. Right. You know, the reason we named the programme reset is we're resetting these kids to who they were before they became screen addicted.

Casey O'Roarty 17:55
Yeah, so we get them there. And then it's a detox. What is detox? Look, I mean, they come in, you talked about the camaraderie of the common enemy, right. And then you move into your curriculum and your programme. And what's the trajectory with these kids

Michael Jacobus 18:13
will love the first week and I'll tell my staff do not plan on getting a lot of sleep the first week. The first week is really tough, because a these kids don't want to be here. So they're all grumpy, and they hate us and they hate their parents and all that stuff. Be there in a roommate situation, you know, they're not at home in their basement or in their private Rio, they're, they're completely out of their comfort zone. And three, they're not sleepy when it's bedtime. So you know that first week is super, super rough. And they are detoxing. The kids who come to camp have almost zero social skills. They're used to communicating in chat boxes with abbreviations, you know, and they're not used to actual in person, real world face to face communication. So they all have attitudes, you know, ranging from good to bad. But once they get a couple of good night's sleep, and they understand that this is how it's going to be, and it's going to be this way for the next month or three and a half weeks, they all start to, you know, it's very obvious when they've gotten a good night's sleep. It's very obvious when they've had a few good meals, like good square meals, not just snacks or desserts, or cookies or whatever they're eating at home. So our whole detox programme, is to get them into a position for healthy living success. And during this time, we have group therapy three mornings a week. And like the first week, nobody participates. It's more educational. But by the second and the third week, they're actually opening up and talking. And by the second and third week in the individual therapy sessions. I don't attend those because I'm not the therapist. They really start opening up about what it is that made them addicted in the first place why they escape into their screens. You know, we have a lot of kids who report some sort of abuse or trauma in their past, you know, and that's what our therapists are there for and the therapists are there 24/7 They live on site with us. They participate in all the programmes with us, their therapy dog. So she goes for a dog walk probably eight times a day with a different camper just to talk and walk and talk about their individuals. How

Casey O'Roarty 20:11
old are the kids that come to your programme? Well, we

Michael Jacobus 20:14
say teens, so 12 to 19, typically our youngest campers, about 14, and we have had kids as old as 21. But we really tried to keep it under 18. Because then we don't have to involve getting their permission, because they're still minors, and everything is parental permission. And in my experience, working with summer camp kids for that many years, you know, I've worked with younger kids, but I really feel a pull towards the teenagers because they're going to be out in the real world on their own very soon. And they need to really understand if you send me a 10 year old, and I'm talking to you about what big tech wants, and it's your time and your money, not your happiness and enjoyment and you better learn how to do your laundry, because you're going to be living on your own tune your 10 year old thinking eight years down the road, and apply for abstract. So you know, you really tried to address it to a tee. Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 21:04
and I love that you're couching it in like this is your life. Right? This is what lies ahead and you get to be an active participant in it.

Michael Jacobus 21:12
We do a course called What's your financial footprint? And I just have them guess what does it cost you to live every day? How many times you go to Starbucks, what's your phone cost? How much groceries you know, what's the rent gonna cost? How much gas are you using? If you own a car and you buy a car, you making car payments, and we go through, you know, buying clothes, buying tickets to concerts, what does your life cost and real world money that currently somebody else is probably paying for. And we always end up around $5,000, which shocks me? And I'm like, who's gonna pay for this? Once you leave home? And they're all silent? They'll have no idea. And they're all starting to realise they're not going to make that kind of money as a social media influencer. Or if they're professional YouTube star. So I'm like, Well, what are you sending? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So what are you going to, and you know, ignoring it, and just playing video games is only going to prolong the problem, you already raised your hand and said, you don't want to live with your parents when you're 25. So what are you doing right now today? To change your life?

Casey O'Roarty 22:10
So how do we, you know, I think that, especially for people in our generation, who did not come of age with these options, I mean, Pong. And Atari really wasn't the same as fortnight. And so we have this memory and this perspective of this bigger world, outside of the digital world. And then we're talking to these kids, our kids who don't know, I have no experience a lot of them with a world without this option. And, you know, having conversations with them about like, you know, I'm curious about this, how are you feeling about this? And they feel like, hey, it's fine, right? Which might be yes, they think it's fine, because they're comparing themselves to others. And it's so normalised or it's fine, might be just an avoidance, I don't want to have this conversation with you. But again, they don't know any different in it. Plus, they're out in the world. And that's what they're seeing everybody else do is their faces in their phone. How do we start having I would love for listeners that are really kind of feeling lost with even opening this conversation with their kiddos, is it possible to start opening this conversation with our kids without, you know, sending them to something like reset? What are the tips that you have? Absolutely,

Michael Jacobus 23:33
I'll give you two avenues. Number one is last month, we created an online course for parents. So if it's the wrong time of year, you can't make it to camp. It's too expensive, whatever, you can take the online course and it walks you through pretty much everything we do at Camp awesome. And that's available right at the top of our homepage. But aside from that, you know, it's time for parents to reclaim their parental authority. And I don't mean to use the word authority, like a bad thing. I'll tell parents, you know, if your kid is a gamer, like most of the boys who come to camp are gamers, most of the girls who come to camp are into social media, we get cross addictions once in a while. But usually that's kind of how it breaks down. If your son is a gamer, pull up a chair next to them and maybe create a character and play that game with them. You might think it's the stupidest thing in the world, biggest waste of time in the world, but you need to understand what drives your kid and what they enjoy. You need to connect with your kid. And if you can do that, playing a video game, that's fine. The biggest challenge is when I tell moms to ask your daughter to share their Instagram because like you said, you know daughters are getting really sketchy about what they're doing on Instagram. So it has to be in a non threatening non judgmental way. And it's just show me show me what you do online. Show me what you you know what you're posting and who comments on it. And what you comment. I'm just curious, I just want to learn and then yeah, be done and leave. Yeah. And then do it again tomorrow. But it can't be an oh my god, you did this and you know you're punished You're grounded, and you can't be that way. And then sleep, I will come back to sleep all the time. And I even in the online course, I even suggest parents apologise, you know, have a family dinner on Wednesday, like family dinners all the time, but have a family dinner on Wednesday, and apologise to your kids to your family and say you just didn't realise how critical sleep deprivation is to their well being and their future success because our job as parents, is the future success of our kids not just getting through the day, well apologise to your kids and say, starting Sunday, so give them a few days warning, we're all going to get eight hours of sleep a night. And that's it, it has nothing to do with devices in the conversation. It's just we're all going to get eight hours of sleep. So starting Saturday night, and I recommend at 9pm you collect the devices, and you put them on the charging station in your master bedroom closet, put a bad lock on that door, if you have to. I also tell parents take the power cord to the computers, take the power cord to the router and do whatever it takes to disconnect your family at nine o'clock at night that'll give about an hour of melatonin to naturally produce because it's getting dark and you should be getting sleepy. And by 10 o'clock, it should be lights out and then 6am Everyone gets up and gets ready for school. Nobody needs to be on their device between 9pm and 6am. Truly parents included so parents have to go along with this. Yeah, like you said, easier said than done. But these are the tips that I've learned through years of working with kids, that if you want your kid to be as successful, grown up and leave the house, when they're 18 to go to college, go to trade school or get a job, you need to establish these parameters now while they're young, otherwise, they're never leaving.

Casey O'Roarty 26:41
Well. And I really love that the conversation is about sleep and not about screens. Right? I think that's so important. And what I've read about sleep deprivation is it can present like anxiety and depression. And aren't we all? You know, we feel like there's this mental health crisis, which there is and I wonder how much of it would be impacted on everybody getting a good night's sleep on the regular?

Michael Jacobus 27:06
No kidding? Yeah, I mean, a tonne of it. And that's what I drill into the kids that camp, you know, it has nothing to do with screens or technology addiction has to do with sleep, we show videos about you know, what goes on in your brain while you're sleeping. And our sleep deprivation causes damage. And we show those almost every day. Because without good sleep. You can't be good at anything else in life. You can't be a good Ghana, but you can be a good student, you can be a good member of your family, you can be good at your job, you know, sleep starts everything.

Casey O'Roarty 27:38
I also appreciate you know, going back to that word authority, what my listeners, you know, I use the phrase confident authority. And we also talk about kindness and firmness. Right which to me is that confident authority it is you know having that energy of your health and well being means so much to me that I'm willing to sit with your disappointment or irritation of this limit that I'm setting up for your health and well being and so you listeners, you know, as you're considering this and thinking about this and yeah, budding this, because I'm sure that there's like well at my house, here's why that won't work for me, right? Catch yourself their listeners and shift into how can this work for me? Because like Michael, like you're saying their future our kids futures, our future neighbours, colleagues, leaders, the kids that are coming up right now they need us to put up those guardrails so that they can show up to adulthood and with all their capacities, right? Exactly. Yep. Yeah. And so when you talk to the kids, I would love to know, because I'm always excited to hear from the kids, right. And I feel like there's, you know, even in that Wednesday night dinner, we're having this conversation about sleep, it's important to show up, you know, in that non emotional, non judgmental way, matter of fact, connected. And so much of, especially when we're setting limits, I think so much of it can be influenced by the relationship that we've nurtured with the kid that we have, right? And listeners, you can have a really good relationship with your kid and they can still have a screen problem. So it's not like one cancels out the other. What do you hear from campers? Or do you about their reflections on their parents, and how their parents are navigating the limit setting and the screen time stuff?

Michael Jacobus 29:43
Well, the campers who first arrived, the camp will tell me their parents don't care. No, and that's their perception is that they can be on you know, as long as they're quiet. When I talk to parents, I'll say what's the one thing we enjoy at home more than anything else? And I'll flash the word quiet. On the screen, and you know, we tell ourselves, they're up there doing their homework, they're up there studying, they're not studying, they're playing games, they have their earphones on, they're chatting, you know, whatever. So the kids perception is that the parents just don't care. As long as I'm quiet. They don't care. And the other point that the kids will make, especially new arrivals at camp, are that the parents are on, they need to detox more than the kid does. Which is probably not true. But the parents are on their phone, checking email, scrolling Instagram, yeah, just as much feedback. Parents just aren't, you know, gamers. And it's funny, I ask a group of kids, how many of you have ever posted a photo on Instagram or social media, and then taking it down within an hour because it didn't get enough likes, and every girl always raises their hand and usually about half the boys. And I find that so curious, because anytime I post something on social media, I don't care if anybody likes it. I don't post it for other people to like, I posted because I liked it. Or I thought it was funny or was information about camp, I know, even every check if anyone likes it. So you know, it's a completely different dynamic when you're young. And when all your friends are doing the same. Sure. And we talked to them about, you know, how often they post and Predator danger and using filters to change the way they look, and all this kind of stuff. That's more of a girl thing than a boy thing, but it does cross. So truly, you know, for the parents to get a hold of this, they need to communicate with their kids that they are going to change their habits, and that they do care, which is why I suggest play a game with your kid, look at your daughter's Instagram with her in a non judgmental way, you know, become reconnected with your kid. Yeah, yeah. And every time I hear about shame and embarrassment, I'll say, you know, and it's Oh, it's my fault. I let my kid get this way. I'll say, yeah. And that was yesterday. Starting today, you're gonna have a new reality, and you're gonna move forward in a new way. Yeah.

Casey O'Roarty 31:48
And there weren't great models, like, I mean, any more. I feel like right now, when I meet someone or talk with someone who has waited, you know, till 1516 to open up the especially social media stuff, I am in awe, and I am celebrating them. I feel like the last couple of weeks, I've been on my Instagram a few times just saying, hey, everyone with younger kids, I'm speaking for all of us that are five years ahead of you. Just wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, we all wish we waited longer, we all wish that we would have scaffolded better, like the rollout could be so much more useful. Because like you said, None of this stuff is going away. And none of it has to be particularly horrible. We just have to live in a way where we're balanced. Right? And so if you could paint the perfect picture of a rollout for anyone who's listening who hasn't gotten there yet, God bless you all, don't just don't.

Michael Jacobus 33:00
What would that look like? A rollout for a parent with a small child?

Casey O'Roarty 33:04
Well, hopefully it's not a small child. Like I mean, I honestly I had somebody reach out to me as a sponsor for the show. And they're like, look at our phones. You know, they're good for seven and eight year olds. And I was like, I am not going to promote your product and say that it's okay for seven and eight year olds to have phones in their pocket. Like, I don't care about all the safety measures that are on your device. I'm not going to speak those words. Right? Yeah,

Michael Jacobus 33:28
the thing I hear most from parents is the location feature, you know, I can know where my kid is. And I'll talk to them. You know, when we were kids, my parents didn't know where I was for hours, and just had to be home when the streetlights came on. So you know, it is a different world, there is more danger. I don't know if there's truly more danger, or just more well aware of the danger. But you know, if you have a good relationship with your child, there's no need for a child doesn't need a smartphone, especially until they're in high school. Yeah, like halfway through high school. And other than that, you know, bring back the flip phones, if you really need to call your kid

Casey O'Roarty 34:03
I saw someone with a flip phone at the airport a couple of weekends ago. And I was like, ah, yeah, they're not actually

Michael Jacobus 34:10
making a mess. Companies are releasing flip phones more and more, because they realise this is a problem.

Casey O'Roarty 34:16
And people want help. We want options. Yeah, yeah.

Michael Jacobus 34:20
Well, and one thing I've noticed, especially with rolling out the online course, for parents is a lot of parents will give me some pushback and say, Well, I think it's kind of counterproductive to have my kid take an online course for a digital addiction. And I'll say it's not for your kid. It's for you. Yeah. And parents are so eager to like send their kid the reset or some other kind of programme. And that's fine. But I'll say regardless of the programme you send them to at some point, that programme is going to end and the kid is going to come home. Yeah. So you still need to equip yourself with the ability to deal with whatever the addiction is. Yeah.

Casey O'Roarty 34:55
And that interpersonal dynamic is the foundation And of everything, right, and how we're showing up to these conversations, like you've said, in the modelling in our energetic authority that we're bringing to the family. Yeah, I mean, it is very much so like, how can we fix my kid without getting involved? Yeah, without going anywhere too deep for me that I start to feel uncomfortable, or I start to have to look at places where I've contributed to the current dynamic. That's

Michael Jacobus 35:27
why I say it's a family dynamic. It's not just fixing your kid, it's fixing the whole family dynamic. Yeah. In the first module of our online programme, we right off the bat, we talked about parents being on the same page. Because very often, you know, we have a mother who thinks there's a real issue, and the dad that doesn't think it's that big a deal? Well, if one of you think it's a big deal, it's a big gap. So you need to get on the same page if you have a two parent household that the kid needs, you know, has an issue that needs to be addressed. And then another thing we talked about is the possibility of getting your kid assessed. You know, we have licenced therapists on staff and at least half of the kids who come to camp every year, have very obvious diagnosable issues, be it anxiety, depression, ADHD, mild Asperger's something, and they've never seen a therapist never been assessed. And so I tell parents almost on a daily basis, it is not a personal failure on your part. If your child has a behavioural or cognitive challenge, you know, if they don't, that's great. But maybe they need therapy, maybe they need some medication, maybe it'll take a couple of months to get it right. You know, so many parents are so wrapped up in shame and embarrassment, we don't get a lot of referrals to our programme from successful kids who completed it, because nobody wants to admit that they sent their kid to a digital detox programme, which is fine. I understand. We get some very wealthy families, some very famous, we've had children's of actors and Hollywood people. And we don't promote that at all. Because they don't want us to share their names, and we won't, but it crosses every socio economic boundary. Sure. So parents need to get over it, and figure out that that was yesterday. Today, we're grabbing a hold of this. And today we're going to have a new note. Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 37:11
well, and it's interesting to write because we are all to some degree or another, struggling with this. I mean, other than my good friends who literally have been living on a boat in Central America for the last six years with their kids, they're the only people I know who the screen stuff isn't, at some level, a point of contention or a challenge. And I think, you know, just like stuff that's happening, you know, that we're hearing about with mental health, I mean, the more that we can be real, and talk about this collective experience that we're having, the better, like, okay, feel sad, feel ashamed, feel embarrassed, and then get your shit together and help your kid because they're not going to be helping themselves because addicts don't and

Michael Jacobus 37:58
will tell the camp, you know, if you didn't pay for whatever it is, the social media platform like Facebook and Instagram are free. If you didn't pay for that product, you are the problem. And that's what we really need to drive home to them. Because these companies don't exist for your amusement and enjoyment. They exist for your time and your money. And your friends time and your money. We had a kid last year who had racked up I think it was $30,000 using the debit card his parents gave him and then his mother's credit card, and then his grandmother's credit card, and then his best friend's mother's credit. Oh my gosh, buying online stuff. You know,

Casey O'Roarty 38:34
Instagram does know what you want, Michael? Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Michael Jacobus 38:37
Yeah. And it's so easy. And kids today, you know, when we do the financial footprint class, they really have no concept of what anything costs, because it's just a tap of your phone or a swipe. They don't even handle actual cash. Yeah, everything is electronic. So there's no concept of earning anything, or what anything else.

Casey O'Roarty 38:56
Yeah. And they all want to live least well, not even gender. Right. Like they all want to live the Bougie life, that's for sure. Yeah.

Michael Jacobus 39:03
Yeah. And how are you gonna afford that?

Casey O'Roarty 39:07
Man? Well, I'm so glad for the work that you do. I'm so glad for the programme. That reset is in the way that you're helping families right now. And this online programme. So the online programme is for parents to move through. Correct? Yeah. Okay, great.

Michael Jacobus 39:24
It's 10% of the camp tuition. It's $785. And once you complete it, if you still are having issues and you still want to send your kid to camp will deduct the entire cost of the camp. Yeah. So it ends up being free if you send your kid to

Casey O'Roarty 39:37
camp now. Yeah, I mean, it's sounds like it's worth every penny. Right? And when we consider that, consider the cost otherwise, you know, it's a steal. Well, and

Michael Jacobus 39:48
what's funny is we are really the cheapest game in town.

Casey O'Roarty 39:50
I loved I know,

Michael Jacobus 39:52
environment for kids. You know, Wilderness Camp can be upwards of 40 $70,000 a therapeutic boarding schools. Yeah. So by that time you've spent all this money and you still have this issue, you know, because you haven't changed the family dynamic. You've just tried to treat the kid, you're not helping, you're just blowing money.

Casey O'Roarty 40:10
Well, I'm gonna put the link to your website and all the places I'll ask you in a minute where people can find you. It's all in the show notes, listeners. Thank you so much. Is there anything else that you want to make sure you leave the listeners with before we close?

Michael Jacobus 40:24
No, I think we've covered everything. Like I've been saying all through, you know, sleep is the most important, and so have those conversations and mirror the behaviours to your kids.

Casey O'Roarty 40:33
And I always end with a particular question. So the name of my podcast is joyful courage, and that's kind of the compass that I use through my parenting and life thing. What does joyful courage mean to you? Well,

Michael Jacobus 40:47
it's funny, because I've used that phrase, even before I'd ever heard of your podcast. Oh, cool. And I've used it in discussions with parents about having this dinner table conversation that starting next weekend, we're going to have a new normal, and it takes joyful courage to do that. It takes courage, regardless, but it should be joyful. It should be. This is beneficial to all of us. This is good news. This isn't punishment. This isn't you're in trouble. This isn't even addressing what they're doing online. And that's a whole different module. This is just addressing sleep. So be courageous. Worry about all the shame and embarrassment was yesterday. Starting today, we're going to have a new normal and it's gonna take joyful courage to get there. Ah,

Casey O'Roarty 41:33
I love that. Where can people find you and follow your work?

Michael Jacobus 41:37
Reset summer camp.com. That's the primary website. All the links to the socials are on there. My cell phone is on there, my direct emails on there and a link to the online courses on there. So reset.com is it

Casey O'Roarty 41:49
thank you so much. My pleasure. Thank you

Casey O'Roarty 41:57
thank you so much for listening in today. Thank you to my spreadable partners, as well as Chris Mann and the team at pod shaper for all the support with getting the show out there and making it sound good. Check out our offers for parents with kids of all ages and sign up for our newsletter to stay connected at beasts braudel.com. Tune back in later this week for our Thursday show. And I'll be back with another interview next Monday.

See more