Eps 501: Growing a family through foster care with Mark Daley

Episode 501

My guest today is Mark Daley, and he’s here today to talk about all-things foster care. 

Mark shares the path that led to him writing his new book, “Safe,” gives us ideas on ways that people can help support foster kids, and explains what foster kids need.  I bring up how scary it can be thinking about opening your home to a stranger and ask what upstream interventions are in place to improve the foster care system.  Mark leaves us on a happy note when he brings up the amazing people he works with and a first step if you’re interested in learning more about fostering children.  

Guest Description

Mark Daley is a social activist, entrepreneur, and foster-turned-adoptive father.  He has over two decades of experience in message development, communication strategy, and public policy, including as a communications director and spokesperson for then-Senator Hilary Clinton’s 2008 presidential campaign.  He has worked with more than 30 members of congress, numerous governors, and other elected officials.  He’s the founder of One Iowa, the state’s largest LGBTQ+ equality organization and thefosterparent.com, a national platform to connect interested families with foster organizations.  Mark resides in LA with his family.  

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Takeaways from the show

  • Hear about Mark’s new book, “Safe: A Memoir of Fatherhood, Foster Care, and the Risks We Take for Family” 
  • Why do people choose to foster? 
  • There’s a critical shortage of foster parents
  • There are many ways to help foster children besides fostering 
  • “These aren’t bad kids; these are kids in a bad situation.” 
  • How and where can foster kids pick up the life skills they need to be successful?  
  • What’s a starting point if you’re interested in fostering or learning more about fostering?

What does joyful courage mean to you

In my work, it takes courage to open your home, but it’s not just your home, it’s your heart, right?  The joy you can find there is infinite.  Love knows no bounds.


One Iowa

The Foster Parent

Mark’s book “Safe: A Memoir of Fatherhood, Foster Care, and the Risks We Take for Family 

Mark on Instagram

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kids, work, foster care, foster, feel, system, book, foster parents, move, parents, probation, family, children, thinking, teens, mark, intergenerational trauma, la, sense, adopted
Mark Daley, Casey O'Roarty

Casey O'Roarty 00:02
Hey, welcome to the Joyful Courage Podcast, a place for inspiration and transformation as we try and keep it together while parenting our tweens and teens. This is real work people, and when we can focus on our own growth, and nurturing the connection with our kids, we can move through the turbulence in a way that allows for relationships to remain intact. My name is Casey O'Roarty, I am your fearless host. I'm a positive discipline trainer, space holder coach and the adolescent lead at Sproutable. I am also the mama to a 20 year old daughter and 17 year old son walking right beside you on this path of raising our kids with positive discipline and conscious parenting. This show is meant to be a resource to you and I work really hard to keep it real, transparent and authentic so that you feel seen and supported. Today is an interview and I have no doubt that what you hear will be useful to you. Please don't forget sharing truly is caring. If you love today's show, please pass the link around snap a screenshot posted on your socials or texted to your friends. Together we can make an even bigger impact on families all around the globe. I'm so glad that you're here. Enjoy the show.

Casey O'Roarty 01:23
Hey everybody, welcome back to the show. My guest today is Mark Daley. Mark is a social activist, entrepreneur, and foster turned adoptive father he has over two decades of experience in message development communication strategy, and public policy including as a communications director and spokesperson for then Senator Hillary Clinton's 2008 presidential campaign. Damn 2008 feels like a lifetime ago. He has worked with more than 30 members of Congress, numerous governors and other elected officials. He's the founder of one Iowa the state's largest LGBTQ plus equality organization, and the Foster parent.com, a national platform to connect interested families with foster organizations. Mark resides in LA with his family. Hi, Mark. Welcome to the podcast.

Mark Daley 02:20
Hi, Casey. Thanks so much for having me. Appreciate it.

Casey O'Roarty 02:22
Yeah, I'm a SoCal girl too, by the way, just so you know, you're talking to somebody, I'm not there now. But I grew up in Orange County. And now I live in the Pacific Northwest. So I know the vibe. I'm a West Coast girl too. We are going to talk about your new book, which is called safe. It's a memoir, it reads like a novel I became so attached while reading it to you and your husband, I feel like I know you because of reading your book, and little Logan and Ethan and who you were for each other in your process. And I felt so emotional over the unfolding of your story, your time, and really what's continued to unfold for you. This is a really personal and emotional story. And I'm so grateful that you shared it. And as a reader who has zero experience with fostering or the foster system, I love the way he weaved in so much information while you are telling your story. So we're just gonna start with when did you know that you had to write this book?

Mark Daley 03:27
You know, I think that it was probably right after the boys were unified. It just felt like they were not given their fair day and you know, their day in court. And I wanted to do something and I wanted to tell the world about it. Because it just felt like somebody had the power to help some other kid down the road. Right? And this was my way of doing that.

Casey O'Roarty 03:48
What does it mean that the boys were unified? For those of us that don't know? Yeah,

Mark Daley 03:51
thank you. So I mean, the whole point of foster care is to reunify children with their birth parents, right. It's supposed to be a child's interest foster care, not because they've done anything wrong, but because they're in a situation where it's not safe for them at home, whether there's abuse or neglect, whatever it might be parents struggling with mental health issues, or some sort of, you know, addiction, whatever the case, they go into foster care with the hopes and the anticipation and the expectation that they will return home. In California. That's about 55% of the kids that actually reunify with their birth parents, or, you know, primary caregivers, not since the rest either, you know, proceed into living arrangements with family members, or just other family members or foster parents and so on.

Casey O'Roarty 04:32
So you and your husband, Jason, you were ready to start your family and like 55% I mean that like I'm just thinking about my heart and your heart and you know, opening up your home and your heart and your family to kids that may or may not get to stick around knowing that that was what you were you mean you went into it wanting to be an adoptive parent. Why was that your choice to move into the foster system versus is whatever the other alternatives are? Absolutely.

Mark Daley 05:02
Well, you know, for two men, obviously biology is not on your side when it comes to procreate. And so we started looking around it, you know, our options were limited, right? It was private adoption, surrogacy, or foster care with the hope of adopting, we decided to go with foster care after really, I mean, almost signing papers to start surrogacy, in large part because I had some family members who entered my family through foster care. And it was something I always felt like I wanted to do, you know, I also had been doing a little bit of work within the child welfare space, and I learned about the 400,000 Plus kids that go into foster care every year 125,000 that are currently eligible for adoption, the thing that I think I expected a little bit differently was that I expected that, you know, we would get one of these kids that would come in and maybe be abandoned, right? Like, we've heard stories of moms that would deliver a child and stay in the hospital, and then maybe step outside to smoke a cigarette and not return. Yeah. And I thought that was the kind of kid we wanted, you know, that kid that needed to be loved and have a family. And, you know, so ultimately, that was where we went into it, it was a little bit naive, honestly, on our part,

Casey O'Roarty 06:07
yeah. And what a gift. I mean, I'm just thinking about the entirety of the book that you wrote, and the information that you are now able to share with people and the platforms that you're creating, you know, is heartbreaking. And I see this in the work that I do with parents all the time, my kids are now 21 and 18. And they've had their struggles and the gifts in what doesn't work out the way we think it's gonna work out and how, you know, just having trust and faith as we move through what's hard, can just open up so many beautiful opportunities that weren't even on the radar or learning that weren't even on the radar. So I love that.

Mark Daley 06:47
I think about that every day. You know, I mean, obviously, we ended up with three kids that we adopted, that are not the boys that were in the book that we're talking about. And so not to spoil the book, I hope you all still read it. But I think about that all the time when I'm with them. And you know, just the fun we're having or seeing them grow and learn. And it's just, you never know,

Casey O'Roarty 07:06
you never know, you never know. Talk about the title. So you titled your book safe? What is it about that word that felt like it was the right title for your book?

Mark Daley 07:15
Well, I will be honest with you, the original title in my head was protection. But because I thought it was like this play on like this idea of you want to protect your family, you want to protect children, and you know, and then we also have the child protective system, when my editor said, you know, that's a mouthful, let's go with safe. And I said, No, that's much better idea. And really, it's around the same idea is that a parent's job is to keep their children safe. You know, at the end of the day, that's the most important thing you can do for a kid. Because let them know they're safe. And they're you know, and they're loved. And they're protected and looked after. And love truly isn't enough. You need more than that you need safe, you need them to be safe.

Casey O'Roarty 07:49
Yeah. And their experience makes me think of like, and them experiencing safety, right? Like, when you threw out those numbers a minute ago about the kids in the foster system. I mean, it's heart breaking, especially looking through the lens of safety and feeling safe and feeling secure and feeling okayness. Right, when everything is precarious, right? When things can feel so precarious, and trying to make sense of that as a young child. So in the work that you're doing, and I want to talk about more of that in a moment. Have you found yourself in a lot of relationships and interactions with a variety of kids in the foster system? Is that something that is part of your work?

Mark Daley 08:36
I would say yes. And no. I mean, I think I've definitely have a lot of exposure to kids who are in care of all ages, honestly. But primarily, I'm working in sort of the recruitment of foster parents. Yeah. You know, and what's interesting is, you know, a lot of people who read my book or read it said, There's no way that I would do that. But the thing is, for me, that's okay. Because, yes, there's 400,000 kids in care and we need, you know, there's a crisis level of shortage of foster parents nationally. That being said, we don't need everybody and we certainly don't need people who go into it thinking I could never do this, right. But there's something we can all do. And whether that's as simple as speaking up and giving voice to them in their schools in their community and their to their elected officials, or becoming a mentor, a court appointed special advocate a casa. There's so much stuff we can do to help these people who are truly the most vulnerable members of our community. Yeah.

Casey O'Roarty 09:31
That makes me think about your response in the book, you were invited to meet Lisa Campbell Martin, we meet her in the book, she seems like I mean, what a power euros Yeah, for sure. And you know, you yourself, were like, I don't know if I'm the guy to talk to her because you were in a place of a lot of discouragement just with the unification of the boys and just for listeners, is she still one of the directors of the LA County Probation Have larvae

Mark Daley 10:00
is okay. Yeah, so LA has largest child welfare agency in the world. I mean, LA County is the size of Michigan. So if it was a state, it would be the 10th largest state in the country, just the county of LA. And so we have 1000s and 1000s of kids, but it's such a small subsection of them are on probation. And typically, these tend to be kids who have grown up, in and out of foster care. And ultimately, at some point, they commit a crime. And that crime is usually one of survival. And what I mean by that is, there's someone who's, you know, joined a gang for safety in their community, or for a sense of belonging, if they didn't feel at home, their young person who might have, you know, sold sex to make a living or sold something to support themselves. These are survival crimes in which is awful that we live in a world where that is the case, but that is, and so Lisa is in charge of probation, child welfare here in Los Angeles, and she is such an amazing force for good and for change for these kids. But when her and I first met, my kids are just reunified. And I had created a successful foster parent recruitment campaign for a nonprofit. And we were introduced to mutual friends who said, you know, would you go in and maybe sure what you did. And so I started talking to her not realizing that there was potential of me going to work and do it for them and help them recruiting at first and, you know, a couple of minutes into my presentation, I just sort of turned to her and said, You know, I don't think I'm there to even have this conversation right now. Everything we just went through, and I just sort of unloaded. And she just met me with so much compassion, but also so much realness. And I just immediately was like, I don't know, if I, you know, I want to hug you. And I want to work with you. That was it.

Casey O'Roarty 11:34
Yeah, you know, going back to what you said about the older kids in the foster system that are surviving and doing what's needed to survive. So, you know, I typically am talking about parenting on this show, and one of the kind of the foundation of my philosophy, and what I've learned is in positive discipline, which is this movement, you know, it's Adlerian theory, and its behavior being movement towards a sense of belonging and mattering belonging and significance. And as I listened to you talk about these kids who have committed crimes of survival, it's exactly what we talk about when we consider systems, right. And there's all sorts of systems, one of which is the foster care system, there's, you know, systematic racism, there's so many systems that are oppressing different parts of the population, and the need for belonging and significance doesn't change. And so it's always so interesting to me, when we can shift our lens and start to see like, oh, yeah, this was movement towards a feeling of security, a feeling of like, I'm gonna make it through the day, this is what I have to do to make it through the day, this is what I have to do to feel a sense of, you know, like, in the example of gains, feel a sense of family feel a sense of connection, feel a sense of safety. And yeah, and so talk a little bit more about the teens in the foster system, like, and you talk about this in your book, you know, and no shame. I don't want to shame even myself around this. But it's like, it can feel terrifying to open your door, and just to not knowing who's going to walk through. And I think that's probably one of the barriers for people. So how do you encourage people who are ready to move through that and to open their doors to kids that, you know, there's the trauma that might have happened in utero, or early years, but then, you know, a kid that's 789 12 1314, who's lived through this, you know,

Mark Daley 13:40
maybe bigger than you? Yes. Yeah. I mean, here's the thing is that the hardest time we have in getting his place for adoption, or even finding homes for our older youth, and I think it's for all of those reasons that you just talked about, you know, Lisa said to me conversation one day, it's just, you know, it's harder thing about teens on probation is where the kids that nobody wants to talk about, you know, they're scared. Yeah. And the truth is, these are kids who've been failed by every adult in every system in their life. Right. I mean, and so they ended up in the child welfare system, and eventually probation, it's, you know, and, and without the right intervention and the right supports. I mean, these are kids that oftentimes do sort of life on the installment plan, you know, they're in prison or incarcerated, you know, they're homeless. I mean, in LA, we have such a homelessness epidemic here. And, you know, so many of our unhoused community members, 40% of them were in the foster care system at some point in time, you know, and so it just shows you how we're feeling because over and over and over again, I think, though, you know, when it comes to the teens, I think, where we tend to have a lot of success as people who've been exposed to teenagers, through their professional work. So, you know, educators, people from the medical community, but I thought I'm talking more about like medical secretaries, office managers, people who see them when they're going to their therapy sessions, or you know, especially kids in foster care, and they know that these aren't bad kids. These are kids in a bad situation. And that's the difference You know, it's like, once you understand that it is not a bad kid, it's a kid that just has been dealt a really terrible hand. You know, it becomes a different mindset it takes for somebody to do this.

Casey O'Roarty 15:11
So, and yet, you know, just listening to 40% of the unhoused people having come out of the system. And I mean, I don't know if there's any stats about kind of the turnaround of kids that are in the foster system, having biological parents who had been a part of the foster system, I imagined that numbers, you know,

Mark Daley 15:31
I wouldn't be able to tell you Yeah. You know, yeah, it's common. Yeah. You know, it's about breaking, you know, cycles, or anything, but really, it's it's addiction, mental health are the leading contributors to neglect or abuse on children and teens. Right. Yeah. And so that's where those tend to be. There's a lot of intergenerational trauma and other things that play on to that. And we, yeah, absolutely. And we as a society have not done a good enough job, researching and figuring out ways to, you know, researching the harmful impact of intergenerational trauma and ways in which we can stop it. And for future generations,

Casey O'Roarty 16:07
what are the upstream solutions? Like? What are the things that are happening right now that are more upstream, that are making any kind of difference? As far as just the system problem?

Mark Daley 16:21
You know, it's interesting is when I started to write this book, by finish ideas, I'm gonna write the policy book, and I'm going to cure this. And I quickly realized, I have no idea how to do that. Yeah. So instead, what I did was, you know, share our story. And we've done as many facts as I could, hopefully, without, you know, burdening the reader on that. That's

Casey O'Roarty 16:38
great. You did a great job. I really, truly it was the perfect amount of both. Yeah. Thank

Mark Daley 16:43
you. But yeah, and you know, I mean, I think there are a lot of upstream interventions to some really great programs out there for kids who are in foster care. You know, there's one that I talked about in the book called YB. Life set, which is a organization called Youth Villages has put together where they work with kids who are transition age, those aging out there in multiple states across the country, they usually assign a full time sort of paid social worker mentor typing for about six months where they work with a dozen or so maybe less kids, and if they're in college, or you're continuing educational work with them throughout the duration of their academic career, but their success rate on that is so important, because it's things like how do I get a credit card? What is credit mean? I can't get a cell phone, if I don't have credit, what does it mean to be couch surfing versus on the house? Right? Like, there's a difference? And how do you you know, fill out a resume or do laundry, I mean, life skills that most of us had parents teach us, you know, and things like that. But also, you know, really, it's about getting so much of this is, you know what you were saying? It's about that sense of belonging, and that sense of worth that comes with belonging.

Casey O'Roarty 17:50
And I'm listening, like those life skills, even those of us that feel like we're doing a good job of teaching those life skills, we still get questions like, oh, I mean, my daughter is currently moving from her first apartment to her second apartment. And she was like, Well, I can just pack and move all in the same day. And I was like, Oh, honey, it's not gonna be a good day for you. So no, you know, it's literally today, but she's saying bye, hornets. Now, no one likes to move. But all of those things in thinking about kids that, you know, just are launched. And the launch looks so different. It's basically like, and now there are no adults for years. So I'm so glad to know that there's programs like that. I mean, how do you stay engaged with this work? Like it feels? So heart wrenching? What is the light that keeps you leaning in? You know,

Mark Daley 18:48
it's interesting. So I'm not on the front lines, where I'm working directly with kids day in and day out? Right? Yeah, what I'm doing instead is, you know, I launched a platform that allows me to recruit foster parents around the country and connect them with agencies in their community. And that's what the Foster parent.com is. And it stems from the work I did with Lisa in LA. And now I do across the state of California with the department social services, let's say one of the things that's so encouraging to me is that I get to work with some of the most amazing people who are truly doing, you know, often thankless jobs, you know, they're completely grossly underpaid, over educated, many of them are, you know, holding master's degrees, and, you know, and they're in it for the right reasons, you know, they just care about these kids. And I think, to me, that's really what makes a world of difference when you have these, you know, I think about like, I talked about our social worker who was assigned to, you know, my children, Amy and and Josh, the ones that I adopted, you know, she had to move them out of Los Angeles County, and over to a neighboring county because if she kept them in the county, she couldn't find a house large enough to take all three of them and she would have had to split them apart. And she didn't want to do that to them. And so by moving them out of the county, she added it was an easy three hour drive and that's without LA traffic. I did it in five hours. Once If that tells you to get to their foster home, you know, from where her office or closer my house was, as well. And they just, you know, she did that because she cared. And she didn't have to. I mean, I know your listeners, right thing. But who wouldn't have done that? Well, you know what, she probably had somewhere between 45 cases, you know, meaning she has to go to every single house once a month, she's working on all these different kids, she could very easily split them up, and she didn't. And as a result, you know, I have three kids that are wonderful. And they're all you know, biological siblings, and well adjusted with each and their bond is as tight as ever, you know.

Casey O'Roarty 20:32
I mean, just thinking about that experience of being the kid. And like I said, in that precariousness, and to have that solid sibling, like, Well, yeah, we're a threesome. It's not a single person. But a threesome must be such a special extra piece to all of this as well, I'm so glad that it all unfolded the way that it did for your family, for sure.

Mark Daley 20:58
Thank you.

Casey O'Roarty 20:59
Tell me more about the foster parents. So is it like an individual like I'm a person listening? And I'm interested in finding out more? Or do you work with organizations? What is the work there,

Mark Daley 21:09
so an individual listening can go on to the site and sign up, and then they'll be connected with an agency in their community. So basically, foster care is governed on every level of government, depending on where you live. So in some states, it's done at a statewide level. And sometimes it's done on a county and even some places municipal level, city level. So it's hard to find where to go. So what we do is we sort of screen out, you know, what are the agencies that we know of that do a good job, and we try to connect you with one of them, and that serves your area, and then you're able to connect from an agency standpoint, they can work with us directly. And we'll run micro targeted ads in their community online to try to recruit people who might be interested in doing this work. And it's a very cost efficient, effective way of doing it, because we've now been doing it for about, oh, my God, I miss 10 years now. So we kind of get it figured out. Yeah.

Casey O'Roarty 21:59
And what do you, you know, for people that are maybe ambivalence, or in kind of in that, like, maybe I'm not sure plays? What would you say to them to encourage them to open their doors? Especially? I mean, I'm thinking, I mean, obviously, all the kids, but my heart is really breaking for those adolescent kids. Yeah.

Mark Daley 22:21
Yeah. I mean, look, I think the biggest thing is that, first of all, it's normal to be ambivalent on this and have a lot of confusion, I think, you know, the average person thinks about it for somewhere between 18 and 24 months, you know, if you woke up one day and said, today, I'm gonna go get a foster kid, that wouldn't be normal. So please don't do that. Actually. Think about it for a long time. Take your time. Talk to other people who've done it, you know, yeah, of Congress, they call me, I don't care. It's one of those things, we think about it. And, you know, especially, you know, it's people that understand, as you get into the those adolescent years, you know, we need more people that have some sort of trauma informed background, you know, because the mere act of being taken away from your school, your friends, your parents, your dog, your grandma and move to another house like that, in and of itself is traumatic, right. So, I mean, in a perfect world, we have so many upstream interventions, that would never happen, but it does happen. And we need families that can bridge that gap, and some that will eventually adopt, but not all will, you know, and so we do need those families. And I think the biggest thing is that when these kids move in, just to know that, hey, you know, we're here to look after you and help you and, you know, we're sorry for everything you're going through, and we're here to support you. You

Casey O'Roarty 23:33
know, yeah.

Mark Daley 23:35
Thank you service boundaries, because we, you know, yes, I'm rapidly approaching the teenagers in my house, and I'm already horrified. So, wow,

Casey O'Roarty 23:43
it's really great. Good, well, and yeah, I mean, when I think about foster parents, and, you know, I've reached out locally here to see how I can support foster families with my work, what kind of support is there for someone who steps into that role? You know, to know what to do? I mean, you and Jason, you were like brand new parents, right? And maybe, maybe somebody was like, I've never had kids? Or if I have I mean, what kind of support is there if I'm not trauma informed, but I do want to open up for adolescent kids like what is available for people to feel like they can offer the space that these kids need? There

Mark Daley 24:24
is a significant amount of resources available, the challenge is accessing it. And so what I encourage anyone to do in this situation is to really like step back from your situation, say, what are we struggling with? What do we need help with going to your social worker and asking, and then also researching online, there's national organizations like high Foster, which is a wonderful organization that connects foster youth as well as foster parents as well as biological parents, anybody to tons of resources. It's really about being a squeaky wheel, right? Like, you know, we as parents, you know, if our kids struggling with something, we go to the ends of the earth to get them reading for whatever it might be, this is no different. It's just oftentimes behavioral and the behavioral is so easily understandable, right? It's like kid has gone through so much upheaval, so much turmoil, so much loss, maybe abuse, maybe neglect, like, how do we just help them deal with it and realize, like, you know, we're just here to help. Yeah.

Casey O'Roarty 25:19
I love the phrase behavior. Makes sense, right. And our job as caregivers and parents is to figure out like, you know, ultimately, what is the problem that this behavior is solving for this kid? Right? Because that's, you know, behavior makes sense. So figure out why how, what is it that is this, you know, what is going on that is fueling this behavior.

Mark Daley 25:42
I love that. Casey. It's like, I'm that parent, that's immediately like, has that emotional like, Oh, alright, stop, pause, pause, I need to like, how do I not have an emotional reaction here? Because it's not directed at me. I mean, it is directed at me, but it's not about me.

Casey O'Roarty 25:56
Right? That was, you know, that's every, all of us are like, whoa, and or it happens later on. It's like, damn, I could have navigated that differently. That

Mark Daley 26:07
is totally, you know,

Casey O'Roarty 26:09
let's have a redo.

Mark Daley 26:10
Exactly. Well, I'm

Casey O'Roarty 26:12
so glad that you came to talk to me and to learn more about the work that you're doing. Thank you for your service. And for your book. And listeners, all the links that Mark mentioned, including a link to his book will be in the show notes. Is there anything else you want to leave us with before we close? No,

Mark Daley 26:31
I just want to say thank you so much for having me. And thanks for the work you're doing. I so appreciate it. You're

Casey O'Roarty 26:36
welcome. My pleasure. And then finally, I'm excited for you to answer this question. Because the name of my podcast is joyful courage. So I would love to know in the work that you do, and just the story that's unfolded for you and your family. What does joyful courage mean to you?

Mark Daley 26:52
Oh, I think you know, it's in my work. It's about, you know, it takes courage to as you said, open your home, but it's really it's not just your home, it's your heart. Right. But the joy you can find in there is just infinite. And I think that's really you know, love knows no bounds. Yeah.

Casey O'Roarty 27:08
Beautiful. Thank you. So you've got the Foster parent.com Where else can people find you and follow what you're doing? Do you have social media handles that we need to know about?

Mark Daley 27:20
I do on Instagram as Mark daily 00.

Casey O'Roarty 27:24
Okay, like the actual numbers? Yes, daily 00. Okay, not my

Mark Daley 27:30
year of birth, but I'll go with it. If you believe

Casey O'Roarty 27:34
you and me both. All right. Thank you so much for hanging out with me.

Mark Daley 27:38
Thank you. I so appreciate it.

Casey O'Roarty 27:47
Thank you so much for listening in today. Thank you to my Sproutable partners as well as Chris Mann and the team at pod shaper for all the support with getting the show out there and making it sound good. Check out our offers for parents with kids of all ages and sign up for our newsletter to stay connected at www.besproutable.com. Tune back in later this week for our Thursday show and I'll be back with another interview next Monday. Peace

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