Eps 582: Parenting highly dependent adult children with Natalia Aiza

I think of courage as the ability to do hard things and know that you’re gonna be okay. And I think that doing that with joy is, is the absolute best way to do it, to like jump in to hard situations.

Resources:

• Instagram: @letstalk.ocd

• Website/Consulting sessions: www.ocdminds.com

Transcription

[00:00:00] Casey O'Roarty: Welcome, welcome, welcome to the Joyful Courage Podcast. This is a place where parents of tweens and teens come to find inspiration, information, and encouragement in the messy terrain of adolescents this season of parenting. Is no joke. And while the details of what we're all moving through might be slightly different, we are indeed having a very collective experience.
[00:00:30] This is a space where we center building, relationship, nurturing life skills, and leaning into our own personal growth. And man, the opportunities abound. Right. My name is Casey Ody. I am a parent coach, positive discipline, lead trainer, and captain of the. Adolescent ship over at Sprout Bowl. I'm also a speaker and a published author.
[00:00:53] I've been working with parents and families for over 20 years and continue to navigate my own experience of being a mom with my two young adult kids. I'm so honored that you're here and listening. Please give back to the podcast. By sharing it with friends or on social media rate and review us on Apple or Spotify.
[00:01:13] Word of mouth is how we grow. Thank you so, so much. Enjoy the show.
[00:01:23] Hi listeners, welcome back to the podcast. Today is an interview and I'm really excited to introduce you to my guest. Her name is Natalia Aisa. Natalia is an OCD and anxiety specialist based in Boulder, Colorado. She is the founder of Kairos Wellness Collective, a holistic anxiety treatment center, and you can learn more about her work on her Instagram account at Let's Talk dot ocd.
[00:01:51] Hi Natalia, welcome to the podcast.
[00:01:55] Natalia Aiza: Hi, can she? So excited to be here.
[00:01:57] Casey O'Roarty: Can you share a little bit with listeners about your journey of doing what you do and a little bit more about the Kairos Wellness Collective?
[00:02:06] Natalia Aiza: Yeah, absolutely. So I started this as a mother, as many of us do. I could not find a OCD therapist for my own daughter.
[00:02:15] And after realizing what a deficit there was in my community of specialists and anxiety disorders and OCD, I decided to train up. A team of my own. We basically started as, you know, a few practitioners in a little blue house and grew from there. The need for OCD and anxiety specialists is tremendous.
[00:02:40] There is always a lack of specialty training in our field, so I, I feel really grateful to be, you know, part of a new movement to get therapists understanding how you can't do talk therapy for. OCD and for many anxiety disorders. So if we're not doing talk therapy, what are we doing? We're doing exposure response prevention.
[00:03:04] So that is a behavioral modality. It's all about facing a fear and then not doing your safety behavior.
[00:03:13] Casey O'Roarty: Hmm. And how did you I love, first of all, I love that. I totally relate to how your work has been encouraged by, you know, what you needed as a parent and not finding, I I, same. Right? Like that's why I kind of narrowed in on adolescence is when my own oldest was moving into adolescence and things got really challenging.
[00:03:36] I couldn't find. The conversations that I wanted to hear that felt real and relevant and mirrored the messy experience that I was having. Even as I was also a parent coach and a positive discipline trainer, it still felt very much like, yeah, and like I don't wanna be promoting that. There's some kind of formula that.
[00:03:58] Avoids the messiness of adolescents. So just really appreciating you, digging in where you saw that deficit and creating something for your community. Um, so we're gonna talk about what is now called highly dependent adult Children, formerly known as those kiddos who are failing to launch. So how would you define these kids?
[00:04:22] Who are these kids?
[00:04:23] Natalia Aiza: Hmm. Yeah, so they are young adults. Um, they are between ages of 18 and usually late twenties, but some, in some cases, into thirties and forties. These are adults who are still highly dependent, not just by financially, but more importantly emotionally and logistically dependent on their parents.
[00:04:48] So the way that we define it. Is that there's a maladaptive codependence happening and a stuckness in these young adults where the normal steps, and I use the word normal in, in, you know, very lightly because I don't believe that there is one path, but. I would say normal healthy differentiation, meaning you have your own life.
[00:05:15] You are on a path to start your own nuclear family is not actually happening, and the highly dependent adult children aren't necessarily cohabitating with their parents, nor does cohabitation mean that they're highly dependent. It's, it's a completely separate issue of how much they emotionally. And logistically need their parents to function.
[00:05:40] Mm-hmm.
[00:05:40] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. I'm just remembering when my daughter, she was probably 18, she hadn't moved out yet. She was definitely struggling and she's been on the show and my listeners are familiar with Rowan's story. It's really one of inspiration for so many, and I'm so grateful that she's so generous about sharing.
[00:05:58] I bought her the book Your Turn by Julie Lithco Hames. Are you familiar with that book? Yeah, and I kept like kind of poking my head in like, Hey, are you checking that out? And she, I remember her saying like, mom, that book stresses me out, like the thought of. One day taking care of, like being the sole provider for herself and taking care of herself and really being in that adulting.
[00:06:27] There was a definitely a period of time where that the idea of that was too, too overwhelming for her to even hold. And so I'm really appreciating this language of maladaptive anxiety disorder as well as that like unhealthy codependency. So. What are you noticing? What are some of the things that are happening inside of the families where this kind of behavior is manifesting?
[00:06:54] Yeah.
[00:06:55] Natalia Aiza: So I derive almost all of my knowledge about this subject from my experience running my center and working with these families. Um, now in my town I'm known as a, uh, young adult whisper and I love God Bless you. Yeah. I love, love, love these, uh, these cases. And they are among the most stuck cases that we see at my center.
[00:07:21] Mm-hmm. Part of why they're stuck is because the whole family system is usually participating in this young adult stuckness. And so we see, um, a lot of enabling behavior from parents. We see a lot of avoidance from the young adults. We, we see a lot of behaviors that need to be shifted, and it's not all on the young adult.
[00:07:47] I think actually the harder work is on the parent. To really do the tough love measures that are sometimes needed in order to motivate a child that really doesn't wanna leave some of the comforts and the safety that they, that they had in adolescence.
[00:08:08] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah, and again, I wanna differentiate, right? Like when you talk about the comfort and the safety, I imagine when I think about that, and I think about my own experience with this.
[00:08:20] Like that emotional safety and that experience of, uh, like, like safety is such a, a big need for the human experience. And I wonder, is there a different, like, okay. Yes, yes. And is there a difference between like and overly perhaps spoiled kiddo that it's like, of course I don't wanna leave the house, I mean.
[00:08:44] You're doing my laundry. All I gotta do is play video games. Like why would I want something different? I've got my own space downstairs in the basement. Like, versus this really, like, I want to want something different and I am afraid of something different. Is that two different things or Probably, I'm guessing it's messy and can overlap and Yeah,
[00:09:04] Natalia Aiza: it's all of the above, but I, I am my career.
[00:09:08] Have never seen a young adult that doesn't on some level really want the change. Mm-hmm. It's not usually that black and white. There's definitely levels of wanting the change, but not having the, you know, as you say, joyful courage to make that leap. Mm-hmm. Into a less comfortable situation. And by comfort I don't mean like the sheets aren't high thread count kind of.
[00:09:35] Yeah. I mean, like, you keep, like you said, emotional comfort and also, you know, ability to stay in a job that is, you know, maybe physically grueling or continue to push themselves, uh, along a certain career that is not actually, um, monetarily that beneficial for the first, you know, five years. Mm-hmm. That type of discomfort that I'm talking about that is just, it's really hard to jump into that.
[00:10:09] Um, and feeling that personal responsibility when you could be in a situation where other adults are responsible for you.
[00:10:20] Casey O'Roarty: You know, it's so interesting, and I was just talking about this with a group that I'm leading a different context, but you know how easy it is, especially like looking back, being a parent of young children and looking forward at the way people were parenting their teenagers and having all sorts of opinions, and then having a teenager and realizing, oh, I didn't know shit about this.
[00:10:43] Wow. Stepping in those shoes. And I'm guessing there's that a similar, and I know, actually, I'm not guessing, I know that there's this similar experience when you've got a kiddo that's really struggling with thriving in adolescence or later adolescence and there's all sorts of chirping that you can hear.
[00:11:02] Well, you just gotta, like even the, and I'm so ex, I really wanna dive into the tough love idea because. You know, I had to literally cut off members of my family for a period of time. 'cause I was already in self-doubt. I already was like, yeah, I know. I know. I need to lean in. I know I need to do these things to support her.
[00:11:21] And that feels impossible. Right. And so when you talk about tough love, like what does that mean to you and what are some of the strategies that you help families with to help create what I'm guessing is appropriate amount of tension? That's kind of language that I use. To promote some uncomfortable action on the part of the kiddo.
[00:11:42] What does that look like?
[00:11:43] Natalia Aiza: I mean, it, it really depends on the family. Um, I think it's important to be culturally sensitive. I think it's important to be sensitive to trauma in the family system. So, you know, a lot of the parents that I work with. Are, you know, gen ex parents who have negligence or an abusive history in their past, in their childhoods, and they're stuck in a little bit of an over corrective loop with their children.
[00:12:14] Casey O'Roarty: Oh, I love that language. I'm writing it down.
[00:12:17] Natalia Aiza: And so I meet every family where they are truly, because there's nothing more jarring than having a professional come in, a therapist come in and say like, Hey, you're doing this wrong. Do it this way.
[00:12:31] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:12:31] Natalia Aiza: There is no one like strategy that I would recommend.
[00:12:36] With all of these families though, you know, your word is excellent. You do have to help them create tension, by which I mean just enough of a push that there is a desire for change. So, you know, the very first thing I often recommend is to stop paying for their cell phone. So that is like a teeny, tiny thing.
[00:13:00] Yes. I, it's very Gen Z,
[00:13:02] Casey O'Roarty: right? Yeah. It's very much we can do that because we're raising Gen Z.
[00:13:06] Natalia Aiza: Exactly. So yes, I understand it's cheaper on the family plan and blah, blah, blah, but it is a fantastic first experience of you are financially responsible for this one thing. It happens every month. You have to remember to pay it.
[00:13:21] You have to save enough money. If you don't pay it, then it turns off and you feel very sad, and it is that really, you know. Really doable. First experience of taking like financial accountability. Mm-hmm. So, you know, it's small things like that, that actually, believe it or not, give the young adult more confidence that they can handle.
[00:13:48] That their turn essentially, that they will be able to rise up and be in our shoes and be successful and be independent and be the head of a household rather than, you know, the adult child of a household.
[00:14:04] Casey O'Roarty: What are some other examples? And I really appreciated also Natalia, and I wanna reiterate that for the listener, like.
[00:14:11] There's no one size fits all here, and families are as unique, you know, as as they are. And, and even as we listen, even as you're listening, you listener will know like, oh yeah, this is absolutely, I'm hearing this and this is a, a fit for me and for our family. And you also get to be in the space of like, yeah, this, this doesn't really apply to us.
[00:14:36] That's fine, that's fine. But what are, what are some other. I am just really interested in, in some of the other strategies that you encourage families to take on.
[00:14:47] Natalia Aiza: So how about we tackle one of emotional dependence? So yeah, those are the adults that, you know, even in their twenties will, you know, blow up our phones, call us, you know, five times in a row because they feel like they need us in order to make some decision.
[00:15:06] They need us in order to get out of an anxiety spiral or they feel too much self-doubt in order to accomplish some task out there in the world without the support of their parent. While it might seem really nice to have your young adult, you know, calling you often, I have seen cases where. The conversations are mul like multiple times a day, sometimes late at night, and there's like a constant call and response often between the child and the mother especially where there's.
[00:15:49] Almost this need to be dependent on the parents' opinions. And so that is something that I, I coach parents to not give a strong response, not um, be. As forthright about giving their opinion on their adults' decisions. So saying like, I believe you know, um, how to handle this or this sounds hard, but I, I know you'll figure it out.
[00:16:18] Things like that mm-hmm. Um, are so much more empowering and long term, they will help your child actually differentiate and own their own decisions. Take responsibility for them.
[00:16:31] Casey O'Roarty: And what I love about that is knowing Natalia, that people are listening to this podcast with middle schoolers, with early high schoolers.
[00:16:41] And something that I talk about ad nauseum probably is how powerful curiosity is and how powerful encouragement is. And that's exactly what I'm hearing you talk about. And so if you're listening and it's like, how do I avoid this? Like what are best practices for avoiding a kiddo that is. Overly dependent and not making their way out in the world is creating an environment that fosters a sense of confidence, a sense of, I've got this, a sense of I can figure this out.
[00:17:13] And, and also recognizing that it does, I mean, after having a period of time where the kids are like, I can figure this out for myself. Like, I don't need your opinion. And having now a kid that's like. Actually, I would like to know your opinion. It does feel good, but it, you know what I'm hearing you say again?
[00:17:33] Is that overkill, maladaptive, I can't make a decision on my own. I have to have your opinion, so yeah. Yeah. Thank you for that.
[00:17:43] Natalia Aiza: Yeah. In the OCD world, we call this reassurance seeking. Okay, so now, now people are asking ChatGPT Is this a good idea? Is this okay? Should I do this? Which, you know is, is not better, especially because ChatGPT will give you as many answers as you want and you can be stuck in a cycle with it.
[00:18:04] So what we're seeing, these young adults, they're, they are essentially stuck in anxiety and OCD cycles with their parents. Yeah. So parents become a participant. In their anxiety spirals
[00:18:27] Casey O'Roarty: and so, right God. And you know, you think thinking about this group of kids and from so young, there's such this external validation through social media. That. I mean, I think we all, all, I mean I'm Gen X and I definitely am a recovering people pleaser and I, you know, if you wanna tell me how great I am, I will receive it.
[00:18:50] Right? Like, I love some external validation while also, you know, very aware of developing my own intrinsic. Sense of self and sense of okayness and worthiness. And gosh, it, it makes sense that, I mean, would you say that the numbers are climbing as far as young adults that are overly dependent and not leaving the house and this is a, like, this is a, something that's getting worse?
[00:19:15] Yeah,
[00:19:15] Natalia Aiza: this is a big thing. Yeah. Let, lemme paint you a picture of a typical client. Okay. Center. So it's, first of all, it's the parents that are calling me. They are the ones that are really reaching out for help their child, let's call them. It's, it's often, um, a male child. I don't know what, why that is, and I don't have, I don't have the stats, but I do know that that's being investigated.
[00:19:43] So a male, 23-year-old, uh, he was a computer science major in college like. Brilliant. Absolutely on it in high school, but something happened around 23 after the end of college that made him retract. He. Staying at home. He is living at home, which seemed like a great idea at the time, but he is not contributing to the grocery bills.
[00:20:11] He's not paying rent. He's often asleep most of the day and potentially, um, gaming a lot at night. And gaming is his major. Uh, social outlet, and so the parents don't really, you know, feel like that's fair to kind of say anything about it. And everyone's gaming at night, but as the months go on, they see that their son is really stuck and doesn't seem to have a plan for any given day, any given month, any given year.
[00:20:44] Every day is like a groundhog day. Mm-hmm. The parents feel like they can't force their adult to get outta bed. How do, how would I even do that?
[00:20:54] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:20:55] Natalia Aiza: And so they kind of have to watch this incredible young man with so much potential, basically stay in this state of like eternal summer vacation. And again, this isn't.
[00:21:10] A question of being spoiled. It's a question of having, uh, sometimes depression, sometimes anxiety. Yeah. But oftentimes complete overwhelm at the next steps that our young, our young people are not actually, I. Guided too. So we get it, we get how to get into college, we get how to do a college 'cause it's more or less like high school.
[00:21:35] But the aftermath of that, the after, we don't really know how to do it. Mm-hmm. And when we add neurodiversity on top of that, we add, you know, the year or so robbed of these, you know, these kiddos lives through COVID. There's a lot of missing links in this generation, and also a sense of kind of, you know, impending doom that this generation has that makes it feel like, well, why am I gonna like, bother doing this thing?
[00:22:06] Like it's all going to shit. Mm-hmm. That sort of energy valid and like, it's hard to argue that that's not valid.
[00:22:18] It leads to being, um, stuck and hopeless. So it's the parents that are coming in and they're saying, Natalia like. What do I do? Do I kick him out? Do I like disconnect the wifi? Like, I'm so confused and there's usually one parent, I'm being very stereotypical here, but sure. I'm gonna go for it. It's usually the mom who's bringing home cooked meals like to the door.
[00:22:44] And so you know, the son doesn't even have to get out of his room to like go eat something or prepare something, and all the while. These parents are so dang nice. They are the nicest. They're so loving, they're so patient. And sometimes that, you know, that niceness comes at some pretty extreme costs for them, for the parents because they are postponing retirement.
[00:23:11] They are, you know, postponing their own financial and you know. Goals. They don't wanna move. They don't wanna leave that, that oversized house because that childhood bedroom is still really important. And so, you know, it's not just that the young adult that is stuck, the entire family system is stuck along with that.
[00:23:33] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. Well, it's so interesting. I'm thinking about my, my husband has said to our kids before you are, you can always come home and you can always live with us, and you can live with us for as long as you want. And I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Hold up if they wanna live with us for that is inappropriate. Like they should want to carry on.
[00:23:53] Right? And if that's not happening, then there's something. That needs to be addressed. And, and I mean, he comes from a loving place 'cause he loves having his kids around. Meanwhile I'm like, when are you leaving? Like, how much longer are you gonna hang out here? So let's talk a little bit about parental anxiety.
[00:24:10] And I, and I, I kind of poked around on, on the Wellness Center site. I see that you provide the space training for parents and I, um, I'm, I don't know a ton about it. I know enough about it to appreciate that. So, and, and from, again, from my own experience, so much of the parent behavior can. Create an environment that is just more riper, right?
[00:24:41] For a tendency for our kids to like lean towards anxiety. So talk a little bit about parental anxiety and how it can also get in the way of our kids thriving and striving and, and wanting to be leaders of their own households.
[00:24:59] Natalia Aiza: Yeah, and absolutely. So for. For people who don't know, Dr. Liebowitz designed the space program, which it's supportive Parenting for Anxious Childhood Emotions, and he's actually the leading researcher in the highly dependent adult child community as well.
[00:25:17] Oh, cool. So he is finding is that the children that were. School refusal kiddos, um, and, you know, grew up to have, um, perhaps like delayed adolescents or extended adolescents. Those are the same kiddos that are struggling during this young adult period as well. And they often start to have symptoms of agoraphobia.
[00:25:46] So, you know, fear of panic, fear of anxiety. Which sometimes leads to, you know, fear of leaving the house. Um, however, their parents, um, it's not that their parents are anxious and that's why they need that training. Their parents are. Part of the system because they are being overly supportive. Mm-hmm. So that's why Dr.
[00:26:11] Liebowitz wants to train parents. Um, parental anxiety is real. That's a whole thing. And you know, parental anxiety can make us more protective of our children, but I think the bigger issue isn't parental anxiety. It's how the child's anxiety is handled by the parents. Mm-hmm. So in other words, is a child when, when a child is anxious, are they being told, well, like, do it anyway, do it scared?
[00:26:43] Or when a child is anxious, are they being told, well, you don't have to do it, don't worry about it. Mm-hmm. Right. And so if we fast forward, it's, the question is, what is the adult version of that like? If our adult child has like a really snarky boss, like, are we telling our adult child well just quit?
[00:27:04] It's not worth the money anyways. Or are we like guiding them and saying like, I know it's really hard. I believe that you're strong enough to cope with that.
[00:27:14] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:27:15] Natalia Aiza: And
[00:27:15] Casey O'Roarty: do you, is like when I hear that too, I, it's so interesting to have these conversations 'cause I'm also reflecting on my own accommodations that I definitely unknowingly made in my deep love for my.
[00:27:32] Anxious child who I didn't even realize that that was what was happening as it was happening anyway. So if anyone else is listening thinking like, oh damn, like I'm with you. I see you, I am you. Um, but I think about also, you know, that piece. Uh, 'cause I think it, it seems like, and you'll have to tell me if you feel like you see this with parents that.
[00:27:55] It can feel like, well, you either accommodate or you say, no, you got this. And I feel like there's also this training opportunity and a coaching opportunity, which I wanna talk about that too. This place in the middle where you get to say like, man, it sucks to have a boss like that. And it sounds like you're gonna need to have a really tough conversation and.
[00:28:17] Let's play with that. What kind of language, what could it sound like? I remember when my daughter was really, you know, when I was really holding like, Nope, you get to make this phone call. You get to ask the questions. You know, do you want some support with writing out what you need to say? Like that was the baby step for her for a long time.
[00:28:36] Whenever she had to, you know, gen Z in the phone, man, it's tough. And anytime she had to talk to somebody on the phone, she found like that was a scaffold. That was really supportive for her. So just wanting to also acknowledge like it's, it doesn't have to be an either or that there's, and my guess is that that training and, and what you do for families really is that, is kind of defining what it looks like to build the stepping stones to bridge the gap.
[00:29:05] Yeah.
[00:29:06] Natalia Aiza: Yes. It's a hierarchy. It's a step up. Right. So in our field, accommodations is a word that means that we are, as parents are going above and beyond and actually participating in an anxiety cycle. However, in the neurodiversity world, accommodations are something that some kiddos need to be able to access the curriculum.
[00:29:31] They're both accommodations, and I don't think accommodations are inherently good or inherently bad. I think that. The most important aspect of an accommodation is whether or not it is empowering the child or the adult child. That is what matters, and as long as your accommodation is in some way, like a form of empowerment and is helping there be future mastery, then I'm all for it.
[00:30:04] I wanna reduce those accommodations that are, you know, pretty low hanging fruit. Like, you know, the kid doesn't have to go up to the kitchen to get his food, like that kind of thing. Mm-hmm. He is an able-bodied young man. He can walk up the stairs and get it. And in fact, it is good for him to come out of that space that is, you know, a space of a lot of anxiety and depression and be in, you know, a family, in a family space.
[00:30:33] So I'm talking about small. Mm-hmm. And you've built up. And as the child gets more and more confident, we accommodate less and less, and every time you take away a parental accommodation. You announce it, you are compassionate, you are clear. It's not like you just like shut off their cell phone in the middle of the night.
[00:30:55] Mm-hmm. Like you give them a nice, healthy heads up and, and also help them understand why this is a more loving thing to do than to continue the accommodation that you have done so far.
[00:31:10] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah, when I talk about this with parents, with younger kids than young adults, like younger, mid, mid adolescent kids, and it's something like, you know, laundry, right?
[00:31:24] I am so, so the language that I'll invite parents to play around with could sound like I am so sorry that I have been robbing you of the opportunity. To learn how to take care of your stuff. Mm-hmm. Right? And so here's how the washing machine works. Here's how the dryer works. I am here for questions or you can watch me do it, and, but I am, like you said, giving them a heads up, but I'm, I'm not gonna take care of this anymore for you because this is a life skill that you get to practice before you're actually out in the world.
[00:31:55] Yep. Right. And so I'm guessing that's the same kind of thing even, you know, just mod, not even modified, but just the same kind of thing with our young adult kids. And I, and I love that low hanging fruit, you know, even the food delivery, right? That's easy. You just don't take it to them. You get to say, dinner's available in the kitchen.
[00:32:16] My poor, my poor 19-year-old who's home for the summer, I keep kind of forgetting to make larger amounts of dinner. And he keeps coming home and he is like, oh. Did you not make any dinner? And I said, oh no, I made dinner. I just didn't know that you were, I didn't know whether or not you were eating out.
[00:32:33] And so maybe that's a communication situation that we can practice. But there's tons of stuff, you know? And fortunately he knows how to handle that. But that kind of cracks me up.
[00:32:53] I have a couple questions. One is yes to changing the behavior of parents. I also have had some clients with kids who clearly need their own support around their mental health, and they are probably due to their, I. Anxiety about it and you know, who wants to roll around in their darkness, right? Who wants to roll around in, you know, what's hard and uncomfortable?
[00:33:18] I get that, but how, what are some strategies that you have or encouragement that you have for parents who have kiddos, young adults, that are resistant to getting their own support?
[00:33:33] Natalia Aiza: It's a whole thing. I think it's something that is more universal than just this adult parent, young adult, yeah. Situation.
[00:33:44] When you see that somebody is not thriving and you feel very strongly that they need professional help and that person is not of the age where you can force them to do it,
[00:33:57] Casey O'Roarty: can you force them? Is there an age where you can force them? 'cause that's a struggle. It's a struggle.
[00:34:03] Natalia Aiza: Yeah. I definitely have kids, um, who come and see me for therapy that are obviously, they're under duress.
[00:34:10] Yeah. Um, but, and I usually can sort of get some buy-in after a little bit. Yeah. But you can't actually be the person as a, not as an adult. That is not the adult, to get someone into professional health therapy. Yeah. Like you just can't. And I really like, those are the moments where I want parents to work on the codependence.
[00:34:35] And if your child needs professional help, then you can't be their therapist. Mm-hmm. Be the person that answers the phone at 3:00 AM in the morning and talks them through their panic attack, like they have to hit their own sort of emotional, uh, threshold where they're gonna say, you know what? Like, I don't wanna live like this.
[00:34:58] I want to, um, get services and I wanna get. Better. Mm-hmm. And then you can pop into the scene and be like, yay. Like, I'll help you financially with this. Like, I, I am, I'm here for it. But there is absolutely no way to force someone to get professional help that they don't want. Yeah. And that's often so annoying.
[00:35:21] Yeah. And that's oftentimes why we have to tackle this behaviorally first. Yeah. And if you know, for example, they're not able to keep a job and it's because of OCD or anxiety or depression. Then they're having these real life experiences that are showing them that they need to do something or change something in order to be able to like do life.
[00:35:49] Casey O'Roarty: Some of the language that I've used and I encourage my clients to use is like, life doesn't have to be this hard, and there are people who've been to school for many years. Who've dedicated their life to helping young people just like you. Mm-hmm. You know? And then just kind of turn and burn, right? Like it doesn't have to be this hard.
[00:36:11] I see you in the hard, and I'm also hearing you say setting some boundaries like. I'm not gonna pick up my phone. Oh God, this one's so hard though. Like, I really wanna turn my phone off at night and then I immediately think, what if there's an emergency?
[00:36:24] Natalia Aiza: Mm-hmm.
[00:36:25] Casey O'Roarty: Like, what if, and then I think about, well, what happened in the old days of the eighties?
[00:36:31] Like, you know, I mean, we had to wait around. We couldn't get ahold of our parents. We had to handle it. And then eventually we got a panicked call from our parents. Oh my gosh, I'm so sorry I missed your call. What's going on? How can I help? But in the meantime, we've lived through some distress and recognized and probably grown in, in that tolerance of distress because we couldn't immediately get that, that feedback or that handholding.
[00:36:58] It's so interesting how technology plays a part in all of this as well, and that over like the, just the cultural. I was talking about this with my daughter just yesterday around this idea of responsiveness, right? And that the normalizing of immediately responding. And she was really funny about it. Like, I decided I'm not gonna do that anymore.
[00:37:22] I get to decide how long I take to respond. And it's like such a novel idea and also so not right, like, congratulations. Well, what are some other, you know. I'm noticing I want this to be really neat and tidy. Natalia, and it's, and it's just not neat and tidy, is it? Oh,
[00:37:39] Natalia Aiza: it's super messy. Yeah. Um, I'm writing
[00:37:42] Casey O'Roarty: a whole book about this.
[00:37:43] Oh, great. And it's neat and tidy, start to finish and all your problems are solved.
[00:37:48] Natalia Aiza: Oh, I wish, I wish, and there's a lot of self disclosure in there about. My own like parenting style and mm-hmm. How it did not set my own kids up for, for launching. So like I, I don't ever want anyone to feel judged who's in this position.
[00:38:06] Yeah. I think even other parents themselves who have young adults who are highly dependent, judge, other parents whose children are highly dependent, like I, I think that we need so much more of a compassionate like culture around this because we, we are all just figuring it out. We don't necessarily have a blueprint from our own childhoods for how to parent.
[00:38:32] You know, this age and mm-hmm. My partner was telling me the other day, my, my oldest is going away to college, uh, in the fall. And he was like, Natalia, maybe you shouldn't make sure he's up in the morning. And I was like, oh no. Oh no. Like I literally forgot to not be his alarm clock.
[00:38:56] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:38:57] Natalia Aiza: And so like
[00:38:58] Casey O'Roarty: it's, and you're the therapist who's the young adult whisper.
[00:39:01] I love this. Natalia. I feel the same way as a parent coach, like.
[00:39:05] Natalia Aiza: Yeah. Looks like I know.
[00:39:09] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:39:09] Natalia Aiza: But like I, I do my best parenting in the office because it's not my kid.
[00:39:15] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:39:15] Natalia Aiza: And you know, it's not my precious firstborn who, you know, I have this incredible bond with. And I like the feeling of, you know, being the first person he interacts with in the morning.
[00:39:27] Right. Like, yeah. That's the emotional, that's like the tenderness from our side, but it's not healthy. Mm-hmm. It's not making him into an independent young man. And I know that I can do better, and so I don't want anyone to be like, oh my gosh, I'm accommodating so much. I want them to say, yeah, everyone accommodates.
[00:39:50] Here are the accommodations that I can reduce that will help my kids thrive.
[00:39:55] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah, last year, so when Ian was a senior in high school, I talked about this on the podcast a lot, I think, but I kind of thought about it as Okay I, and I told him I wanna parent a year ahead, which means I wanna create as much of a sense of freedom for you this year while you're at home.
[00:40:16] So that next year when you're living inside of that freedom, it doesn't become a free for all, which. That was my experience. My first, well, I would be alive if I said my first year of college. That was pretty much my entire college career was a free for all. But for him really wanting, thinking about and, and, and talking about this with clients.
[00:40:35] I have a lot of clients whose kids are heading into their senior year and, you know, there's, it's so easy to micromanage. It's so easy to feel like. Will I see what's coming and I, and make assumptions. They won't do it if I don't, you know, they won't get up if I don't tell them to get up. I love your side of it, which is like, I just like the tender mornings.
[00:40:55] Well, there's also the other side, which is they will literally not get up if I don't get them up, and they're not very far away from needing to get up on their own and the stakes are gonna be much higher. So let them flail with this now versus. You know, however far away if they are to move out and go to college.
[00:41:13] And so, you know, thinking about avoiding, you know, doing what we can right now to increase the likelihood that we avoid a future where our kids are overly dependent on us, I think is really important. And I intentionally use the language of increase the likelihood of, because I think too. And I, I believe you'd agree with me, Natalia, we can be doing all the things right?
[00:41:40] We can be doing all the, you know, quote right things and still have kids that for whatever reason, struggle. Mm-hmm. And, and yes, I appreciate that you've continued to say like, this isn't about judgment and, and or shame or blame or anything like that, but it is about honest looks at our contribution to the environment and the dynamic that we, I.
[00:42:05] Maybe in with our kiddos. So I really appreciate that.
[00:42:09] Natalia Aiza: Yeah, I, um, I tease my kids that now that I'm writing this book, they absolutely have to launch like on time. And so that's the clock's ticking, but I regard this community as not like just about. The, you know, the highly dependent adult children, like, I think it's an entire generation, um, that is, is not thriving as much as we would hope and as much as we as a generation raising them, want them to.
[00:42:47] So, yeah. So I think that we also have to look at society as a whole and kind of think about how it is, you know, failing to. You know, meet the needs of, of this next generation coming up and, you know, simple things like they need to be able to live off of entry level wages. Um, yeah. You know, they need to be able to believe that their voice matters and their vote counts and mm-hmm.
[00:43:18] All the things that, you know, to be productive members of society. Young people also need to feel like society's got them.
[00:43:26] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. Oof. Definitely. What about, well, I'm looking at the time and we have barely any time. Another time we're gonna talk about emotional regulation, but I talk about it a lot on the pod, so that's okay.
[00:43:37] So, yeah, I
[00:43:38] Natalia Aiza: would love to talk about that emotional regulation with an adult. 'cause that's a whole thing. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:43:44] Casey O'Roarty: That's definitely a whole thing. And we're worried and, and we think about our kiddos and, and we all love our people, right? We love our kids and we want so much for them. And sometimes. That is less than useful, right, in how we're showing up with them, so I appreciate that.
[00:44:01] To wrap up, one of my favorite questions, a question that I ask all my guests as we close, is I would love to know what does joyful courage mean to you in this context? I.
[00:44:12] Natalia Aiza: Well, I think of courage as the ability to do hard things and know that you're gonna be okay. And I think that doing that with joy is, is the absolute best way to do it, to like jump in to hard situations.
[00:44:31] Feeling that excitement rather than the anticipatory anxiety. I, I really appreciate the opportunity to be on your podcast. Thank you so much for having Yeah, you're so welcome. Where can people find you and follow your work at Lets Talk Dot ocd and you can book a consulting session with [email protected].
[00:44:55] I'm just really honored to have spoken with you, and I know that many parents are uplifted by your show and the work that you do.
[00:45:04] Casey O'Roarty: Oh, thank you. Thank you, Natalia. Thanks for giving me your time. I appreciate it.
[00:45:13] Thank you so much for listening. Thank you to my Sprout partners, Julietta and Alana. Thank you, Danielle, for supporting with the show notes as well as Chris Mann and the team at Pod Shaper for all the support with getting the show out there and making it sound good. As I mentioned, sharing is caring. If you're willing to pass on this episode to others or take a few minutes to rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, it helps other parents find this useful content.
[00:45:41] Be sure to check out what we have going on for parents. Of kids of all ages and sign up for our newsletter to stay [email protected]. I see you doing all the things. I believe in you. See you next time.