Eps 596: Being an “otrovert” with Dr. Rami Kaminski

“Your child is not supposed to feel the way you want them to feel. They’re supposed to feel the way they feel.” – Dr. Kaminski

“Being yourself is the easiest thing in the world because anything that is not you requires effort.” – Dr. Kaminski

“Teens do better when they feel seen for who they are—not who we hope they will become.” – Casey O’Roarty

“Courage, which is a very, very important human trait to be courageous… courage without joy is not worth it. Life is about enjoying yourself. You are the most important person in your own life. It cannot be just courage — it has to be joyful.” – Dr. Kaminski

Resources:

The Gift of Not Belonging: How Outsiders Thrive in a World of Joiners by Dr. Rami Kaminski
Website: othernessinstitute.com 

Transcription

[00:00:00] Casey O'Roarty: Welcome, welcome, welcome to the Joyful Courage Podcast. This is a place where parents of tweens and teens come to find inspiration, information, and encouragement. In the messy terrain of adolescents, this season of parenting is no joke. And while the details of what we're all moving through might be slightly different, we are indeed having a very collective experience.
[00:00:30] This is a space where we center building, relationship, nurturing life skills, and leaning into our own personal growth and man. The opportunities abound, right. My name is Casey Ody. I am a parent coach, positive discipline lead trainer, and captain of the adolescent ship over at Sprout Bowl. I'm also a speaker and a published author.
[00:00:53] I've been working with parents and families for over 20 years. And continue to navigate my own experience of being a mom with my two young adult kids. I'm so honored that you're here and listening. Please give back to the podcast by sharing it with friends or on social media rate and review us on Apple or Spotify.
[00:01:13] Word of mouth is how we grow. Thank you so, so much. Enjoy the show.
[00:01:23] Hi, listeners. Welcome back to the show. Today's conversation is such an important one for anyone raising a teen who seems to march to the beat of their own drum, especially if that drum feels completely out of sync with everyone else's rhythm. My guest today is Rami Kaminski, an award-winning psychiatrist and researcher who has spent his career noticing what others have missed.
[00:01:47] Through his work, he identified a unique character, type one that doesn't fit neatly into the categories of introvert or extrovert, a type he calls the vert. These are people who have an inherent inability to belong in the ways we typically expect, yet they're deeply social, empathetic, and thoughtful. Dr.
[00:02:11] Kaminsky has observed that the conflict between the human desire to belong and an inability to fully fit in creates a lot of unnecessary suffering, especially in childhood and adolescence. He's made it his mission to build awareness, understanding, and acceptance for those introvert individuals. And help the rest of us parents, teachers, and peers, see and honor them for who they truly are.
[00:02:34] In this conversation, we talk about what it means to be an extrovert, how to recognize if your teen might fall into this category, and most importantly, how you can support and influence your teen. In a way that respects their individuality and strengthens your connection. This is such a fascinating and empowering perspective.
[00:02:53] I can't wait for you to hear about it. Let's get into it. Hi, Dr. K. Welcome to the podcast.
[00:02:59] Dr. Rami Kaminski: Hello Casey. Thank you for having me.
[00:03:01] Casey O'Roarty: So you've named and described this extrovert character type, someone who doesn't fit neatly inside of the introvert or extrovert. Character. Can you paint a picture for us about what an introvert teen might look like in the day to day so parents and listeners can start to recognize this in their own kids?
[00:03:23] What does this look like?
[00:03:24] Dr. Rami Kaminski: It really doesn't look very differently from any other teenager. You have to, first of all, it's important to say that being an introvert is not a diagnosis. It's not any. Um, psychiatric or psychological problem, it is really by, is hallmarked by preference rather than behavior. So the vert may be, as you said, very social popular, happy, but they never feel as they belong to the group.
[00:03:59] And as you know, in teenagers, especially, the group is. The guru, the group is the thing that they is the ultimate ruler of the teenage society. And feeling that you don't belong to it is a very, very difficult and lonely feeling.
[00:04:24] Casey O'Roarty: Do they feel like they don't belong or do they not care about belonging?
[00:04:29] Dr. Rami Kaminski: That's a very important distinction. I. They feel they don't belong. Hence, they don't care about belonging in a sense that you see, all of us are born without a sense of belonging. You said before that we have an innate desire to belong, which is. A good question, but what do we belong to and how do we belong is something that we need to learn.
[00:05:00] Casey O'Roarty: Well, it's interesting 'cause, so the work that I do is in positive discipline and it's based in Adlerian theory and. Adler's work, as I understand it, is about this desire to belong and our misinterpretations around belonging. So I'm so curious and interested in hearing how that idea fits in. And so is it that they don't feel that sense of belonging, so they don't care about belonging?
[00:05:25] Is that a like a defense mechanism or is it just something that they can roll with?
[00:05:30] Dr. Rami Kaminski: Yeah, well, you see belonging. Is, uh, is an internal feeling, you know? Mm-hmm. So you don't feel like you belong, even though you're being trained to belong. By the way, I am also a very, very, very strong proponent of positive parenting, and I think some of the ideas that I have about Verts certainly come from that particular discipline.
[00:06:01] Interesting. My wife and I raised our children who are now very, very accomplished and, and, and wonderful. They've always been, but we ra we raised them in, uh, the same sense of positive parenting. Mm-hmm. And I remember that people used to say to us, why do you listen to them? You know, you just tell them what to do.
[00:06:24] Children need to learn to listen. They don't need to. And so my wife and I never, never ever told them anything without explaining.
[00:06:33] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:06:34] Dr. Rami Kaminski: And we used to say to them, you don't owe us anything. You know, we brought you to the world. You didn't ask us to be born. And so we are here for you and not the other way around.
[00:06:47] Mm-hmm. And all those kind of things that we used to say down like, we are creating now your future memories, your childhood memories. So pay attention. We really did a lot of things that people describing positive parenting. Mm-hmm. My son is an introvert as I am. And my daughter and my wife are not. And we learned a lot how to raise an introvert by raising our son, you know, who, if I may say now, is a doctor at Yale University, a physician and, uh, very successful one.
[00:07:25] So, but we did something right. I guess so. Mm-hmm. Or didn't interfere with something. Right. The sense of belonging. Something that is very difficult to explain, or rather the other way around. The sense of not belonging is very difficult to explain to people who belong. What does it mean to belong? You know, we are born no belonging.
[00:07:50] A child doesn't have a religion, nationality, any sense that there is even a group, a baby. And then the toddler starts having the conditioning to become social. They become socialized, which is good and important and very, very essential to be successful being, if you may, neurotypical. Verts are also very easy.
[00:08:16] In socializing, learn how to socialize with the peers very well. And they're always, they're never being bullied or they're not strange. They're just like, you know, all the other kids. Except when it comes, apropo, what you just said about, uh, positive parenting when it comes to cultural conditioning.
[00:08:36] Cultural conditioning that we all under, we all, all, all of us undergo everywhere at all times is something that, for. Verts doesn't work. Why does it not work? I don't know. But these are people, I call them meek rebels. Mm-hmm. They're very, very nice, very sweet. Good. They're not defiant. They're not objectionable, they're not, you know, rebellious in any way of shape or form by their behavior.
[00:09:09] But internally, they don't accept anything. Just because the group said so,
[00:09:14] Casey O'Roarty: maybe the world could use a few more introverts.
[00:09:19] Dr. Rami Kaminski: I do think that, you know, the larger message, you know, I hope when you read the book, you'll see the larger message is really a message about how wonderful it is to have an individual self.
[00:09:34] Hmm. Ever, ever since, you know, adolescence is the last. Chance to try and develop some sort of individual self, but the group forces us to adopt a sort of group identity. And so the group becomes your identity, and then of course it changes. But the idea that you're not your own identity, but you have to adopt other identities in order to belong to the group, is something that just passes by
[00:10:06] Casey O'Roarty: introverts.
[00:10:07] And you coined the term introvert, right? Like this was through your work.
[00:10:13] Dr. Rami Kaminski: Yes. Um, I mean, what's in the name, you know, you could say, but, um, originally I thought about the concept as otherness. Mm-hmm. You know, people who are, who always feel other mm-hmm. And are pointing in a different direction than the rest.
[00:10:32] But then it was so awkward and I started struggling with this, uh, thought how to call them. And it's a long story, but the name came. About, and I, I like it the difference between introverts and both introverts and extroverts, if you may. Is not that Introverts and introverts and extroverts are different in the way they are behaving, which they do, but it's really in the way they relate to the group.
[00:11:03] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:11:05] Dr. Rami Kaminski: Introverts and extroverts relate to the group the same way. Maybe some are more outgoing, some are more shy, but they relate to the group the same way. Verts do not relate to the group at all. So it's not like a third entity. It's a different entity, you know? And, and that is something that is actually quite easy to explain once you see an vert or you are an introvert.
[00:11:35] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. So is it like the introvert, extrovert is a continuum and then vert just lives just out even outside of that.
[00:11:46] Dr. Rami Kaminski: Excellent definition. Okay. Cases. That's the first time everyone, anyone said this, but you know a continuum, but you're a hundred percent right, so you're right.
[00:11:55] Casey O'Roarty: Well, what I am hearing you say too is, and, and listeners, what I really want you to hear as well is the introvert isn't.
[00:12:04] You know, with Adler's work and Rudolph Ryker's work that, you know, feeds into our positive discipline work we have, we use the mistaken goals of behavior chart and it's all inside of this idea that humans are moving towards a sense of belonging and significance. And so when things get misinterpreted or, you know, 'cause we're great.
[00:12:29] Perceivers. And as children and teens and even adults, you know, not always super great meaning makers, we can get mixed up around how to find belonging in significance and, and I think about teens and rebellious teens and that feeling of pushing against control or pushing against, you know, their parents' values and that kind of like, I don't care what you say, or I don't care about the group.
[00:12:54] It's like a reaction too. The external environment, and I'm just drilling down, you know? And so the vert isn't necessarily reacting to anything. This is actually a temperament. What is it? A temperament? Would
[00:13:09] Dr. Rami Kaminski: that be It's not, it's not, no, it's not really a temperament. It's okay. I know, I always, it is almost saying it, you know, like kind of circular, uh, definition, but it's not a temperament, of course, being an introvert.
[00:13:25] You see, I'll say another thing, which is an, another very difficult, uh, aspect of teenage life. Teenagers tend to be, as we said, a group. It's probably the groupies group you can ever be in, you know? Mm-hmm. It's always there, and if it's not there, if the people are not there, they're still playing your mind like a Yeah.
[00:13:48] You know, this kind of, uh, tribunal that criticizes you and, and all the age matched adolescent group sort of submerges to the underground. They think everyone that is older than them doesn't know anything, and everyone that is younger than them is a baby.
[00:14:08] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm. And
[00:14:09] Dr. Rami Kaminski: they, they have this sense of togetherness that is so much, so strong that on the sad side.
[00:14:17] And I know it because I used to be the medical director for operations in the state mental health office. Oftentimes, teenagers are aware that someone is about to kill themselves and they don't say anything because of this sad ethos that you don't betray. You know you belong to the group and you belong to each other.
[00:14:42] One for all, all for one. This kind of sense that teenagers have. Verts don't, mm don't, you don't feel that you belong to the group. You see every person as a person in, in the sense that, like, when I see you, Casey, I, for me, you, you not, you don't have a context. You are you and I also don't represent when I speak to you, the world or white males or whatever.
[00:15:10] I am just me. That's how people that are introverts live their life. They see the other person for themselves and they see themselves for themselves. That is a wonderful way to connect.
[00:15:24] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. Well, and I'm just thinking about the teenager and so what are some things that show up with teens who may be, you know, extrovert that their parents might be misreading or worried about?
[00:15:38] Like what are some of those traits? And I love, I just wanna go back, you said this a little while ago about your son and. Your first statement was kind of like, good job on us. He's doing really well. And then you said, or we didn't interfere with the development. And I love that. I love that perspective because I think these teen years and teen brain development and personality and temperament, it's all as it should be.
[00:16:03] And our job more than anything else is just, it's a tough, messy time, so don't make it worse. Right. So that's kind of what I thought of when I heard you don't interfere, right? So, so here we are as parents and we've got these teens and we're looking for particular markers. You know, I, for one, you know, my experience, my daughter's now 22 and my son's 19.
[00:16:27] I'm very extroverted and was involved in everything in high school and really loved having a group of friends and being involved. And my daughter is very differently wired than I am. And for me, it, I was worried about when she didn't wanna join everything when she wasn't seeking out a friend group. And that to me felt like problematic.
[00:16:53] Without learning more and thinking more about, you know, not everybody sees the world or experiences the world like I do. So what are, how does this get in the way for parents of teens who are trying to just keep an eye on, is everything okay?
[00:17:09] Dr. Rami Kaminski: Well, it depends what you mean by, okay. You know, I think that.
[00:17:14] The, of course, if a teenager is isolating or doesn't want to speak or has tantrum, so all the things that, uh, actually are, uh, common in teens who are depressed, you know, it's very different from adult depression, then you have a reason to be concerned. But I would say that the best indicator of having. A healthy growth as a teenager is having friends, you know?
[00:17:45] Mm-hmm. If, if somebody doesn't have friends at all, that is very worrisome and maybe reflection on the group or themselves, but if someone doesn't have, uh, stays in the room all the time and don't want to go anywhere, and that's also worrisome and vert is not like that. They just don't have the same concept of fun that the group has.
[00:18:10] You know, it's not, that's why there's no fomo.
[00:18:13] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:18:14] Dr. Rami Kaminski: Because you don't feel you're missing out. You don't enjoy it. You try to go and try to, you know, be loose like everybody else do silly things. You crave to go for, uh, you know, overnight things or being like in sleepaway camp, extroverts don't want to do this.
[00:18:36] They don't want to be part of a group of children or teenagers. They want to be connected and they can be very good friends with each member of the team of their group, but not with the group together. So this kind of every moment when the group takes over. Like, for instance, in an, uh, you know, overnight or, uh, sleepaway camp.
[00:18:59] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:19:00] Dr. Rami Kaminski: They don't want to be there because it's not good for me. They don't feel good, they don't enjoy the kind of benter, uh, and so. If your child is social, is outgoing, learns is not depressed, but they refuse to do the things that other teenagers seem to be crazy about, like they're not interested in sports team sports, they're not interested in current culture, they're not interested in parties, they're not interested in getting away to somewhere.
[00:19:36] And they're very invited. You see, that's the thing that is so baffling for the parents. And so the parents say if, see if a child has, let's say, got, you know, sadly, let's say autism.
[00:19:48] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:19:48] Dr. Rami Kaminski: And the parents know why they're not invited. It's heartbreaking. It's so painful to see your child suffering from not being included, but.
[00:20:00] The introvert doesn't want to be included. Mm-hmm. And the parents not always make this distinction. They don't want to be included. They don't suffer from not being included. They are welcome, but they're not, they don't want to be included. So the child that says to his parents, I don't want to go there. I don't want to do this, which is the opposite of what most teenagers say, you know?
[00:20:26] They start worrying, maybe something is wrong, but really there's nothing, nothing, nothing wrong. It's just a different way of looking at how to relate to the group.
[00:20:46] Casey O'Roarty: And how in that situation, right, when we're in that curiosity, so I'm thinking about the listener right now who's like, oh, hey, this is actually making sense for me and my kiddo. Is it important to distinguish like what's happening or. Can we just simply be like, okay. I mean, I feel like on one hand I wanna encourage people.
[00:21:08] I think we can all do, as adults, do a better job of just listening to our teenagers and believing them when they say, I'm just not interested. Right. I think the more that we can be that safe space for them to be authentic and true to themselves, we can trust that it's not, oh, they're hurting, but they're just saying what I wanna hear.
[00:21:32] And so what are some talking points that listeners could have with their kiddo? You know, I mean, top of mind for me is, hey, I listened to this podcast today and I'm really curious, you know now about you, but what are some questions that parents can be asking just to kind of dig deeper with their kiddo?
[00:21:49] Dr. Rami Kaminski: Well, they have to ask them. I think that's one thing that parents never ask their children and verts are very, very able to answer it. Is, how do they feel, you know, instead of a, you see, I think that here is a point that very good pointer, I just thought about, you really should not assume on the part of the teenager.
[00:22:15] So you assumed in the part of your daughter because you are an extrovert and you had fun in teenage years and you associate having fun with being running around doing whatever teenagers do.
[00:22:30] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm. A hundred percent.
[00:22:32] Dr. Rami Kaminski: To see her being not like that. You start thinking, you know, she's not having fun. She's not, she's missing out on her teenage years.
[00:22:42] You know, teenage is about running with a group and, you know, uh, talking about little things and gossiping, and suddenly there's somebody who's actually interested more in, uh, deeper conversation in one-on-one relationship. Also sitting in the home and reading everything that is not necessarily, does not reflect the way you think, mm-hmm.
[00:23:06] Of a healthy adolescence. Mm-hmm. But then again, you know what's a healthy adolescence? I can tell you what the healthy adolescence is. In my humble opinion, it is helping the adolescent to feel as best as they can. And I, if you don't mind, I'll give you a personal ex exam. Yeah,
[00:23:27] Casey O'Roarty: please.
[00:23:28] Dr. Rami Kaminski: I am horrible in math.
[00:23:31] My brain doesn't work. I think maybe I have a alcohol. At the time that I was in school, nobody thought about this, I think, and so what happened was I was very interested in other. Aspects, like for instance, like, uh, literature, but even biology and physics, I was very, I just don't get math. So what happened every week of my.
[00:23:58] Adolescent life. I had twice a week, you know, private tutoring in math. I went to weekend enrichment camps for math. So in other words, I constantly on a weekly and sometimes daily basis was faced with what I am the worst. Dead.
[00:24:18] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:24:20] Dr. Rami Kaminski: Heads. Everyone said to themselves, what does this kid like? I mean, if I was just somebody who doesn't like anything, that's a different conversation.
[00:24:29] But if I like something that is like let's say literature or biology and I'm not good, obviously not good in math, why do I have to spend all my life doing math? 'cause you see, I think Verts never get a straight a. And you know why? Because people who get straight A, they learned how to be an excellent high schoolers.
[00:24:57] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:24:58] Dr. Rami Kaminski: But that's it. Since nobody remains a high schooler, it doesn't matter. Mm-hmm. So you know how to learn all the things and to have this kind of overall interest, perhaps a little bit more shallow, but more conducive to get good grades. And so you end up being a fantastic straight, A high schooler, you know?
[00:25:22] But somebody like me was not a straight A student at all. And of course math was an F you know, I really felt bad about myself and there was no reason I was actually quite intelligent and I ended up, you know, going to good schools, becoming a doctor or whatever, but I felt bad about myself. And if there's one thing about teenagers.
[00:25:46] Is to help them feel good about themselves because they already feel about themselves because they belong to the group. And they constantly, constantly need the validation of the group. They don't need your validation at this stage. They need the validation of the group. Yeah. And if you cause them constantly to do things that they, they're not good at, you know, it's so easy for a teenager to lose their self.
[00:26:11] Confidence, you know, to feel, and so you, you create even further relative sense of lack of confidence or lack of aptitude because you constantly concentrate on what's wrong with them. Mm-hmm. It's the same thing when parents come to me and they say about the patient. They say, you know, he's lying to us.
[00:26:31] And I said, oh, interesting. Did he get like a plus in physics? And he did not tell you. Did he get the deans whatever, or a medal or No. He smoked weed and he didn't tell you. Of course he wouldn't tell you. Why would he tell you surprise and if if, if it had, he told you you'd give him hard time.
[00:26:56] Yeah. You know?
[00:26:57] Yeah. So I always say to the parents, do not try to extract. Confessions from your teen? What's the push? Yeah, especially if it's, I mean, of course if something serious, but for the most part, most teenagers don't do anything, but they're embarrassed, you know, to tell their parents. And so we make a lot of mistakes, not as you said before, not because we do too little, but because we do too much.
[00:27:27] We fashion ourselves as. The people that are supposed to make them amazing citizens, but you know, the people who are supposed to make your teenager and amazing citizen is your teenager.
[00:27:41] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. And I love this, you know, thinking about how they feel about themself. 'cause when I think about my kids as they have left home and they both had very different pathways out the door.
[00:27:53] My son, very traditional by the book, my daughter. Many side roads, which included really deep mental health challenges and an alternative education route for sure. Both are doing really well and when I think about my kids and, and when I was, when they were still at the house and I thought about my kids as young adults.
[00:28:17] I would, you know, one of the things that helped guide me is to consider how do I want them to feel as they walk into the unknown, which is life. You know, how do I do? I want them to feel confident. Do I want them to feel capable? I wanted them to feel like, you know, everything was figureoutable, right? And so then how to, you know, to me it was then how do I create an environment?
[00:28:43] That supports that kind of development. And what I'm hearing you say is, you know, more often than not it's our fears and our worries and our like wanting, feeling like it's our job to fit them into the mold or fit them onto the path that we think they should be on. That actually generates a sense, you know, more of a sense of insecurity for them because we aren't believing that they're okay, so why would they believe that they're okay and then they're out in the world with this, you know, backpack of not good enough or almost good enough or not quite who they should be to get what they want.
[00:29:20] And it just filters into then them making their own life. And I was thinking about Jane Nelson and the Positive Discipline book has a quote that is. Where did we ever get the idea that in order to make kids do better, first they have to feel worse, kids do better when they feel better. When we feel good about ourselves, when we feel, you know, feel like we are accepted as who we are, there's nothing.
[00:29:47] Yeah, there's no pushback there. It's like, okay, great. We're on the same page. You see me? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, you know, you mentioned extroverts as independent learners. You know that they often resist traditional envi group environments and group sports and things like that. How can parents balance their respect for their teen's autonomy?
[00:30:14] With the reality that there are some places in life where the group option is, you know, like being in school and, and, and how do we balance that with our, that's a
[00:30:27] Dr. Rami Kaminski: very, very good, very good question. Yeah. Actually, because we are on audio, nobody could see that Everything you said just before I was very vigorously, you know, nodding yes.
[00:30:39] Um,
[00:30:39] Casey O'Roarty: that makes me feel very good. Thanks for the validation by the way.
[00:30:45] Dr. Rami Kaminski: But, uh, you know, if you think about it, those teenagers, especially the introvert, teenagers, they really. Don't need you to tell them how to spend their spare time. They do need you to tell them how to spend the time that they're committed to be part of society.
[00:31:09] You know, of course you could raise children like, you know, free spirits and they'll be successful free spirits, but if you want them. To equip them with some skills to be successful in the world, successful at least be, uh, bread earners. Then you have to make sure that they do certain things that they don't like to do, like going to school.
[00:31:34] Most kids don't like to go to school. It's not like a big deal, but you know, they, but they do it. You know, I'm not talking about that at all, about the usual everyday needs. I'm talking about the free time, what they do with their whole free time, and that is the thing that is so problematic. We feel that we can, we need to somehow construct the free time that would meet all kinds of ideas about how they're going to be socially successful, et cetera.
[00:32:05] But if you pressure someone like me to go into a party, you can end up with doing two things, which thankfully for me didn't happen. One is that the kid will have to use liquid courage. Mm-hmm. Okay? Mm-hmm. So alcohol or you know. And I, I saw it when I was 15, 16. I was so, forgive me for saying, but I was so cool.
[00:32:31] I was sua, I was really very popular. Mm-hmm. But when I went into a big party, you know, a school always had this dance parties and we still danced to rock and I would walk in, I was a deer in the headlight. I mean, I would sit, you know, with my back almost like in every aspect of my confidence in everyday life with the children, with everyone was gone.
[00:33:00] So the only way I could say hi to the ladies, which was my main interest at the time, of course, um, um, was by being drunk.
[00:33:09] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:33:10] Dr. Rami Kaminski: You know? Yeah. And so I used to. To get drunk. Many of my friends got drunk. Well, luckily I realized if I have to be drunk to enjoy a party, I probably either should learn to enjoy the party without being drunk, which I was unable to, or just don't go.
[00:33:31] You know, I have a saying that I say to my patients, I never, ever, ever regretted taking a yoga class. But I regret about 96% of all the social events I went to. Mm-hmm. You know, it's not for me.
[00:33:50] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:33:59] And I appreciate too what you said, and I guess this is another piece too. And, and the more that I looked through your book, and the more I'm talking to you, the more I'm wondering if my oldest is actually more introvert than introvert actually. Um, this idea that, that it's not that they aren't in relationship with other people, it's the group.
[00:34:24] Exactly. And so, and they, they can be emotionally generous and empathetic and one-on-one. Relationships. How can we cultivate and celebrate this in our kiddos? Especially for someone like me who I would say definitely identify as as more group. I love the group. I love the group. Dr. K. My favorite thing to do is to go see live music and to be on the dance floor surrounded by people I don't even know who are all doing the same thing and we're burning it up.
[00:34:57] That is my absolute favorite thing. And when I talk about that with my daughter, she's like, Ugh. Yeah, you just
[00:35:02] Dr. Rami Kaminski: described, you described my nightmare,
[00:35:04] Casey O'Roarty: you know? Yeah, exactly. That's what Rowan would say is like, oh my god, mom, no thank you. Although she did recently go to a music festival. With a group of friends, and she did have a really good time, so maybe it's also the music, but anyway, for parents that, that don't really, can't really grasp it or understand it, what advice do you have for them
[00:35:24] Dr. Rami Kaminski: that cannot understand the notion of, uh, being an introvert or a child?
[00:35:29] Yeah, that
[00:35:30] Casey O'Roarty: the idea that you wouldn't wanna be a part of a group.
[00:35:34] Dr. Rami Kaminski: You know, it's very strange and I don't, I don't have, uh, an explanation for that, I must say. Although I do think that, um. The next step that I'm thinking about in one of the areas, because this concept seems to have caught up very, very quickly, and which I'm very happy about.
[00:35:54] But I think that one of the things would be very good is to have a neurocognitive understanding. Perhaps there is a different neurocognitive, uh, trait that. I don't know. But as I said, there's nothing neurocognitive different from an vet than others who are normal, uh, neurotypical, so to speak.
[00:36:16] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:36:17] Dr. Rami Kaminski: And so I think that the question is, and that is a question that parents cannot farm out even though many try, I mean, not because they don't have time.
[00:36:36] Is you have to see how your kid feels. Mm-hmm. And that is something, you know, I know people want to send people to a counselor to go to psychiatry. Psycho. You are the best judge of how your child is feeling, and your child is not supposed to feel the way you want them to feel. They're supposed to feel the way they feel.
[00:37:05] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:37:05] Dr. Rami Kaminski: And you should be able, and, and it's, I think every parent does to, to identify it. The problem is when we don't want to see certain things about the children. And you know, like you see that somebody says, oh my God, I mean, I don't want to get to this, um, subject. Obviously it was very painful and horrible, but let's say somebody committed suicide, you know, and everybody says, wow, there was nothing to indicate that something is, was wrong.
[00:37:34] You know? Right. There were many things to indicate that something is wrong. No, I mean, people can be in policy, but most people commit suicide with pre uh, meditation. It's just that we don't want to see it. Mm-hmm. So if we spent less time worrying about how, you know, the child goes through the SAT. Uh, learning and more how they feel.
[00:37:59] Mm-hmm. You know, we are much more likely to have an adjusted young adult. Yeah. After teen. We have to remember, teenage is for me by the way, and introverts in general. I hope it's gonna be different now as things change, uh, hopefully people will get the concept, but for me, adolescent was, uh, terribly.
[00:38:25] Terribly bruising time emotionally, even though, you know, even though
[00:38:29] Casey O'Roarty: you were so cool and UA and popular, Dr. Gay, I was cool and
[00:38:32] Dr. Rami Kaminski: swa and
[00:38:32] Casey O'Roarty: told, know
[00:38:34] Dr. Rami Kaminski: I had hair and it was long. I mean, I was, I was a cab, so, yeah, so it was horrible. It was horrible and, and luckily, luckily, and I can never be more grateful enough to my parents.
[00:38:50] Is because I was a good boy and you know, other than meth, I was, you know, I went to school. I mean, I was, you know, I was a good boy. You know, they really had this kind of benign neglect, not about who I am and what they think about and so on and so forth, but about how they want me to be. You know? Mm-hmm.
[00:39:13] They trusted me to be what I want to be, and I I did not, I did not let them down.
[00:39:19] Casey O'Roarty: Well, and I think that's so major. I mean, even as I look at the questions that I had written for you, I'm kind of laughing at myself because right there is it. They had trusted you to be who you were, and I think that that's a place where things can go really sideways is when we parents.
[00:39:41] Don't understand the choices that our kids are making. And of course, listeners, this isn't like, you know, choices that are gonna cause harm, physical harm. We're not talking about those kinds of choices, but just in self-expression and, and how they're showing up in the world and what their interests are.
[00:40:00] I think we get all up in our kids' business in a way that. Now they're questioning themselves or they're pushing against you and maybe doubling down on something that maybe was just a try on, but now, oh, you say I can't be this way. Well watch me. And then it just gets so messy and so I really appreciate what I'm hearing you say.
[00:40:23] That is good. Extroverts I think is something for all of us to hear that is good for all kids, which is. Accept them for who they are today, right? Recognize that they're on their own path, and I feel like we can have more faith and trust in our teens than we do because they also want to feel good. They want to feel good in their bodies.
[00:40:50] They wanna feel good in the external environment. And for those of you that are listening who heard Dr. K talk about, you know, the importance of being curious about how they're feeling, and I know because I work with a lot of people who the challenge is that the dynamic has gotten to this place where kids.
[00:41:09] Don't feel safe in expressing how they're feeling. Exactly. Right. And so then it becomes dismantling that wall and those ideas and beliefs that have been formed so that the shared space can be one where the kiddos feel like they can be seen in their truth. 'cause if they don't feel like they're gonna be seen or they're gonna be told they're wrong or therapized by their parents.
[00:41:39] Why, why would they say, oh yeah, let me tell you, let me expose how I'm actually feeling as a teenager in this family, in this body, in this world. So what are some of the things you, you know, with the, the background that you have, my guess is you've had at least one teenager in front of you who was less than forthcoming around how they were feeling or what their experience of life is.
[00:42:07] What are some. Baby steps that you can offer to listeners that can help kind of crack open that space so that kids feel more open, more willing to be open.
[00:42:19] Dr. Rami Kaminski: Yeah. Well, I think that one of the things about being a teenager. Is unwillingness to share anything intimate with adults. Yeah. Including, including parents.
[00:42:29] You know, if you think about it, uh, all the, I know you know it of course, but all the children's book that I'm the most like, uh, uh, PP longs, um, stalking and so they're all are the fun. That happens when parents are not around.
[00:42:46] Casey O'Roarty: Oh, oh yeah. I was a big ppy, long stocking fan. Yeah. And the old one where the mouth did not follow the, I loved him.
[00:42:57] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Good times. Dad's a pirate. He's out at sea, so I'm just gonna live in this big house by myself and we're gonna party.
[00:43:05] Dr. Rami Kaminski: Yeah. Even Harry Potter and all those, these are all children love the society of children. Yeah. We have to understand it. It's their, uh, last grand rehearsal. Mm-hmm. For adulthood, you know, they learn how to negotiate their life with other kids without the supervision of parents, and that is very.
[00:43:31] Essential for them. I'm not saying if it's good or bad, it's not my meat to say, but it's, it's, it's their way. And so the idea that, as I said before, that you want your children to tell you everything about what's going with them and to be, you know, uh, pour out their heart, especially, maybe I shouldn't say it, you can, uh, especially boys, you know?
[00:43:54] Mm-hmm. Because, you know, and that's, it's very, it's, it's interesting. There's. A study that showed that when girls or students tell, talk to psychologists, their stress hormone, the cortisol goes down. And when boys talk to psychologists about themselves, this cortisol, you know, it's interesting.
[00:44:18] Casey O'Roarty: Do you think it's nature or nurture, that whole idea that men and boys, you know, I mean, 'cause it is kind of this whole like, well we don't, it's very
[00:44:28] Dr. Rami Kaminski: hard to say.
[00:44:28] Yeah, very hard to say. But you know, I was, I grew up academically. As a biological psychiatrist, so I'm not, I I didn't start as a, I mean, I know Adler, of course. Mm-hmm. Pi, and, but I, I was never a quote unquote shrink. I worked with serious mental disorder. I mean, I was inpatient psychiatrist at Mount Sinai and so, you know, for many years I put much more emphasis on nature mm-hmm.
[00:45:03] Than nurture. Mm-hmm. And I used to say that underneath a thin cultural veneer, everyone is the same. You know, I have done my entire training 40 years, uh, not training my training, but also my career in New York City. And so you cannot find a more condensed, unbelievable melting pot, you know? Mm-hmm. I've seen representatives of every culture in the world.
[00:45:33] I think most. And yet, you know, people underneath everything, they're the same, you know, in certain ways. But what happens is we're born, you know, babies don't hate, they don't, they're not religious, they're not, you know, local. They're not upper class, they're not lower class, they don't nothing. They are only have the sense of attachment to those that take care of them.
[00:46:04] You know, we are the ones who condition them to become like that, you know? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So if we think, which I know thank, thankfully you're not, frankly, it, you come from. You know, a podcast about, you know, obedience training for children. I wouldn't talk to them, you know? Yeah. But I think many, many people make this mistake, and, you know, it's not about being progressive or aggressive or whatever.
[00:46:30] Obedience is a surefire way to, in my opinion, obedience training to raise an adult that is. Emotionally falsified, you know? Yeah. And constantly looking for people to telling him or her what to do.
[00:46:50] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. No internal compass. Exactly. Yeah. You know,
[00:46:54] Dr. Rami Kaminski: and then it's very easy, by the way, that's a different story to outsource your moral principles, you know, like people do in the tribes, you know, and, uh, dictatorship and so on and so forth.
[00:47:07] You know, so individualism, which comes natural to introverts because you see, when you're not diluted by the group. For instance, my relationship. I have few relationships that they're very tight, but they're all with the right people. I have very, very wonderful marriage of also, you know, decades long with, with my wife, um, you know, who's my life partner and you know, she's, she's the person I'm the closest to.
[00:47:40] She's my best friend. You know, it's because I am able to forge relationship that are not diluted. You see?
[00:47:50] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. You know, I'm thinking, I'm sitting here, I'm listening to you and I'm thinking, you know, where extroverts would be really useful is. In the United States government,
[00:48:03] Dr. Rami Kaminski: at the end of the book, I write the last chapter, the conclusion talks about what not only there is a gift of being a non belonger.
[00:48:14] Mm-hmm.
[00:48:14] Which I
[00:48:15] Dr. Rami Kaminski: detail in the book, but you can say, well, okay, that's good for non belongers, but what's the message for people who are belongers, which are most people? There's nothing wrong to be belonging. Mm-hmm. It's just what we, we, uh, are conditioned to. The message for Belongers is I always say to myself, let's say you say to yourself after we, we finish talking.
[00:48:39] Now, say, oh, it's so interesting to see how the world looks through the eyes of someone who doesn't belong. You know, how can I take count of all of my belongings? Okay. Mm-hmm. Which you may find out you have hundreds of belongings to all kinds of, including random belongings that you go on the, on a bus and you know, the whole group there.
[00:49:03] Mm-hmm. How is it to be living a, you know, even 10 minutes? Just like you. There's nothing else. There's not, you know, the context, you, it's you, you, Casey, that's it.
[00:49:18] Mm-hmm.
[00:49:19] Dr. Rami Kaminski: And once you start thinking this way and maybe be interested in the world of people who don't belong, you start realizing that there is an unbelievable amount of freedom in being yourself.
[00:49:35] Mm-hmm. Because as you know. Being yourself, and I'm not trying to make a cliche here. It's true. Being yourself is the easiest thing in the world because anything that you not, you have to try to be.
[00:49:50] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:49:52] Dr. Rami Kaminski: Yeah. You know?
[00:49:52] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:49:53] Dr. Rami Kaminski: And I always say to my patients, you know, I am me. It's so easy. I, I don't have to do anything.
[00:50:01] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:50:02] Dr. Rami Kaminski: There's no effort. All the effort that you, you use on trying to make impression or, you know, or convince the group or, you know, looking at the Joneses, I don't have it. You know, I'm not a competitive person. Because I don't compete with the others.
[00:50:20] Mm-hmm.
[00:50:22] Dr. Rami Kaminski: There's so many things that can be taught by those who are not belonger, but I think for all the people who are belongers and suffer from the outcome of the group, think that some of the non-thinking belongers do.
[00:50:40] Mm-hmm. You know, the tribes, this could be a way to say, listen. Don't feel that you must belong to everyone you can be you. And it's so cliche now that almost, you know, it's not sophisticated to say, but it's so, it's so true. Being you is the best that you can be. You know, because you cannot be anything that is not you.
[00:51:09] And the idea that you can take the identity of any group and make it yours. Is one of the tragedies of humans. And if you start at teenage years where the mind and the heart is still listening and you're still willing to learn something, you realize that the more you let your teenager. Be themselves.
[00:51:38] And again, we could talk for hours about what it means, but, and you don't try to mold them into what you think they should be. The happier, more adjustable and ultimately more successful they will be.
[00:51:55] Casey O'Roarty: I have so many more questions, Dr. K, and I'm looking at the time. This is fascinating. This is so interesting and I think, I feel like every time you're you, you're, you speak, I have a new layer of curiosity.
[00:52:12] Um, so I guess we're gonna have to do a follow up at some point. I am.
[00:52:18] Dr. Rami Kaminski: So I really, really enjoy it,
[00:52:20] Casey O'Roarty: you know? And I just really appreciate, like, again, I just appreciate how many different ways with different guests that I have on the show and the solo shows that I do like just this message around giving our teens, making sure that we are messaging to their, to our kiddos, that they, who they are is.
[00:52:44] Good enough. Who they are is beautiful. Who is
[00:52:48] Dr. Rami Kaminski: what, but who they are is who they are. See, that's a case. Yeah. Even if it's not, yeah. Not
[00:52:52] Casey O'Roarty: even putting value on it. Yes. Yeah. No value.
[00:52:54] Dr. Rami Kaminski: You, you can, you, there's no, there's no other way. And the sooner you learn it. The more happy you're going to be. So great. So great.
[00:53:02] Casey O'Roarty: Well, is there anything else that you wanna share before we
[00:53:06] Dr. Rami Kaminski: No. Maybe all to reiterate again, because I'm a psychiatrist and you know, so people may see, think that this is like a new diagnosis or a new problem or a new psych. No. Right. Being an introvert is just a different way of being, and it's like being a left-handed person in a right-handed world.
[00:53:27] Right. You know? That's all. Yes.
[00:53:30] Casey O'Roarty: Well, and I wanna make sure to mention, so your new book, the Gift of Not Belonging, how Outsiders Thrive in a World of Joiners by Dr. Rami Kaminski. Where can people find your book and where can people follow your work?
[00:53:48] Dr. Rami Kaminski: Um, so two years ago, I started the three years ago the, uh, Aness Institute that is, you know, dedicated to this, uh, the whole notion.
[00:54:00] So if people look at the, I guess it's like. W Diet. I don't even know it from, Hey man, if you're gonna
[00:54:08] Casey O'Roarty: be doing podcast interviews, you gotta be ready for this question.
[00:54:11] Dr. Rami Kaminski: I know, I know, I know. Is it like
[00:54:13] Casey O'Roarty: otherness institute.com? I can look it up listeners and make sure that it's in the show notes.
[00:54:17] Dr. Rami Kaminski: Otherness.
[00:54:18] Yeah. Otherness Institute
[00:54:22] are not good in self-promotion. I'm must. I love that.
[00:54:27] Casey O'Roarty: Are you on social media? Do you
[00:54:30] Dr. Rami Kaminski: Yes, I have, uh, was the first time ever a perform. Mm-hmm. I don't, I I, so I was, uh, asked by my, uh, publishers, uh, little Brown mm-hmm. To, to, to start in my social media presence. And so I started, and actually that's also very interesting.
[00:54:49] I have not even appreciated, but it's, um, really. It went from zero to 16 or 15,000 people in two months, which I think is, is not bad.
[00:55:03] Casey O'Roarty: Not bad. Not bad for a no bird.
[00:55:07] Dr. Rami Kaminski: Just kidding.
[00:55:08] Casey O'Roarty: I don't need it. I
[00:55:09] Dr. Rami Kaminski: don't need it.
[00:55:10] Casey O'Roarty: Okay. Well the last question that I have for you, and I'll make sure listeners, that all the links to find Dr.
[00:55:15] K is in the show notes, but the last, last question that I have for you, and I ask all my guests this question. The name of my show is Joyful Courage. And so I'm curious, what does joyful courage mean to you?
[00:55:30] Dr. Rami Kaminski: You see courage, which is a very, very important, um, very important human trait to be courageous. And again, courage.
[00:55:43] We can define it in many ways, but courage without joy. It is not worth it. And you know, some people say to me, whatever doesn't kill you, make you stronger. And I say, apropo, you know, courage and joyful cut. I say, it kills me. It doesn't make me stronger. So it cannot be just courage. It has to be also joyful.
[00:56:15] Life is about enjoying yourself. You know, you are the most important person in your own life.
[00:56:21] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. Thank you so much for spending time with me, Dr. K. This was really awesome.
[00:56:26] Dr. Rami Kaminski: Thank you.
[00:56:32] Casey O'Roarty: Thank you so much for listening. Thank you to my SPR partners, Julietta and Alana. Thank you, Danielle, for supporting with the show notes as well as Chris Mann and the team at Pod Shaper for all the support with getting the show out there and making its. Sound good. As I mentioned, sharing is caring. If you're willing to pass on this episode to others or take a few minutes to rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, it helps other parents find this useful content.
[00:57:00] Be sure to check out what we have going on for parents of kids of all ages and sign up for our newsletter to stay [email protected]. I see you doing all the things. I believe in you. See you next time.