Eps 610: Lisa Katona Smith Talks Teen Substance Use

“I think joyful courage to me means, I’m gonna go back to my phrase, having the hard conversation so you can have an easier relationship, and ultimately learning the joyful piece of this is learning how to love better.”
– Lisa Katona Smith

Resources:

Lisa’s website: https://lisakatonasmith.com/
Lisa’s book: https://lisakatonasmith.com/books/parallel-recovery/
Find Lisa on IG: @parallel_recovery

Transcription

JC Ep 610 (9.22.25) - Final
[00:00:00] Casey O'Roarty: Welcome, welcome, welcome to the Joyful Courage Podcast. This is a place where parents of tweens and teens come to find inspiration, information, and encouragement in the messy terrain of adolescents this season of parenting. Is no joke. And while the details of what we're all moving through might be slightly different, we are indeed having a very collective experience.
[00:00:30] This is a space where we center building, relationship, nurturing life skills, and leaning into our own personal growth and man. The opportunities abound, right. My name is Casey O'Roarty. I am a parent coach, positive discipline lead trainer, and captain of the adolescent ship over at Sproutable. I'm also a speaker and a published author.
[00:00:53] I've been working with parents and families for over 20 years. And continue to navigate my own experience of being a mom with my two young adult kids. I'm so honored that you're here and listening. Please give back to the podcast by sharing it with friends or on social media rate and review us on Apple or Spotify.
[00:01:13] Word of mouth is how we grow. Thank you so, so much. Enjoy the show.
[00:01:23] Hey everyone. Welcome back to the podcast. My guest today is Lisa Catona Smith. Lisa is a certified peer recovery specialist, family consultant, TEDx, speaker and author. Inspired by her personal experience navigating a family member's addiction and motivated by the limitations of traditional support models, she created parallel recovery.
[00:01:47] A structured, compassionate framework that gives a voice to the untold side of recovery and redefines how families support a loved one through substance use disorder. Through coaching, curriculum development, and professional training, parallel recovery guides families nationwide in reclaiming peace and purpose, rebuilding connection, and advancing sustainable change with over 20 years of professional experience and in her characteristic warmth and clarity.
[00:02:16] Lisa continues to advocate for a family-centered healing process that fosters the relationships needed to support addiction recovery. Her forthcoming book, parallel Recovery, A Guide for Those Who Love Someone Struggling with Substance Use Disorder will be released later this month, September, 2025. Hi, Lisa.
[00:02:34] Welcome to the podcast.
[00:02:36]  Lisa Katona Smith: Hello. Thank you for having me.
[00:02:37] Casey O'Roarty: Will you start off by sharing a little bit more about your personal story and your motivation for writing this book?
[00:02:44]  Lisa Katona Smith: Yes, absolutely. Um, my personal story is I have two sons that are, um, young adults. They're both in their twenties and when my oldest son was.
[00:02:54] You know, right at that lovely age of middle school when things start getting, um, amazingly easy to parents. Anyways, we, yeah, we had gone through a family tragedy. Uh, we had a, a wildfire that we, our neighborhood was a part of. My son was at a very influential age and impactful age, and it really impacted him drastically.
[00:03:18] And, you know, he started to struggle with mental health and subsequently, um, started to move into solutioning with substance use. And over the course of our journey, I mean, I would say from seventh grade on, there were requests from myself and my husband as, as parents, you know, to, to help him and to figure out how, how do we parent somebody who's struggling, um, with how they show up in this world.
[00:03:46] And. And all the hard things that go along with that. And you know, we were met with a lot of well-meaning intention, but not a lot of actionable tools or empowerment. And ultimately my son, you know, dove into pretty severe substance use disorder and you know, went through many treatment centers and.
[00:04:09] Family support is always sort of on the back burner. And a lot of professional organizations believe that they are supporting families, but they really weren't. And it wasn't until, you know, I kind of took the reins and said, I don't know how to do this as a mom. Um, and what I'm seeing and reading about is that there's a lot of evidence around family systems.
[00:04:32] Impacting change in the person struggling, whether it's mental health or substance use on any level. And I started questioning why that wasn't being offered to us and ultimately ended up just sort of creating what I needed myself. And so obviously there's a hole in what's offered to parents and I am trying to fill it.
[00:04:55] Um, and I'm hoping that my book offers some guidance and some guidelines and you know, I really. Empower families to not just point at the problem but really look underneath the problem at what the pain is and then kind of engage in their own recovery process of, you know, how did I get here too? Because this is hard for me as well and I may be, have become somebody in my parenting that I'm not super proud of.
[00:05:21] 'cause I don't know another way.
[00:05:23] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. I love the language that you used in talking about your son's experience and his pain and how the language of solutioning with substance use, and I think we forget that so often. These, and it's the same. I mean, we kind of danced around an eating disorder a little bit with one of my kids.
[00:05:42] And there were definitely two camps and one was very much like this is a family healing process. And realizing and holding it as that I think is so powerful and really the most useful pathway to real sustainable change. We're all in relationship with each other. We're all a part of the dynamics that we're seeing with our kiddos.
[00:06:07] And it feels so much more empowering. That's the word you use to realize like, oh, I can do something to influence this experience, versus I have to just send them away, or, you know, it's all on them, or I need to detach. And so I really appreciate. This model. And also, you know, I think it's so relatable for me to hear you say, I wasn't getting what I needed, so I created it.
[00:06:32] You know, when we started having a really hard time over here, I was looking for resources as well, and it was like, who's talking about teenagers? Nobody's talking about teenager. I guess I have to talk about teenagers, you know, so. Because it is. It's it. And I imagine as well, part of the reason, I know for me, part of the reason that it was like, well, I guess I'm gonna do it.
[00:06:54] It does feel risky because every family is unique and different. Every kiddo is different. What is useful for one might not be useful for another. So it's messy. Yes. And I can imagine that keeps people from wanting to take it on. And I just wanna acknowledge your tenacity and willingness and bravery in saying, no, I'm gonna, I am gonna take this on 'cause this, this is a gap.
[00:07:17] So thank you for that. Yes, you're welcome. And when I think about the clients that I see, typically it's parents with kids. You know, the worst thing they're doing is they're smoking a lot of weed. And I say that, and even as I say that, I'm like, case that I just totally minimized it just in how I just said it.
[00:07:35] But yeah, so there's, they're, they have kids who are either experimenting or using weed or alcohol pretty regularly or somewhere, you know, between that experimentation and regular use, you know, regardless of what risky behavior our kids are engaging in. Talk a little bit about how that experimentation or that regular loose can create that ripple effect.
[00:07:57] Into the overall family system and what are some tools? So I guess it's two questions and let's then let's talk about some tools that can help us parents respond without shame and panic when we realize what's going on.
[00:08:12]  Lisa Katona Smith: Yeah. Thank you for bringing both of those, um, to the table. First thing I wanna address, and you, you caught yourself and I catch myself as well, you know, as a society, um, THC use has become legal.
[00:08:27] It's become, in some ways almost. Uh, preferable to alcohol for various reasons. Um, and younger people are actually kind of on a alcohol sober movement. There. There's lots of trends that younger people are not actually, um, seeking out alcohol as much, but they are seeking out THC and. It is important to do a little bit of minor education.
[00:08:52] I mean, truth be told, THC is not the same as it was 20, 30 years ago. It really is not, and no amounts of alcohol, THC or any other drug is actually benign. To a developing brain. So we're fooling ourselves when we kind of just dismiss it as well. You know, I experimented. They'll experiment too. There needs to be a bigger conversation.
[00:09:17] That's a true statement. Like, we're also fooling ourselves if we don't think that's going to happen. That is a true statement. However, I think we need to go a step further and not just have it be an expected outcome, but an educated and a conversational one. It needs to be a dinner table conversation.
[00:09:34] You know, what are what's happening at parties? Because it is alcohol still, it is THC in very intense and large quantities, and we are seeing. More and more and more young adults, college age, who started THC experimentation in high school and younger who are now moving into, uh, pretty severe mental health disorders that were maybe poked.
[00:10:00] By T heavy THC use. I'm not gonna say cause because that's not true and there's a lot of, um, information that still needs to be unpacked, but definitely there's a correlation between high intensity THC use and some pretty severe and long-term mental health. Very not good problems. So it, it is important to have these conversations.
[00:10:20] And another thing that's on the table for, for these young people as young as sixth and seventh grade is bowls of pills that are at parties. It's a real thing. Oh my God. Um, and it, it is important that. Parents know that this happens, that kids will clean out old prescription bottles and bring things to parties.
[00:10:39] And it's dangerous. It's dangerous even if it is pharmaceutical. But in the age of Fentanyl, it's extraordinarily dangerous and the conversation actually does need to happen. That, um, experimentation is no longer. Safe without knowledge. So having conversations around fentanyl and testing for that if, if your child is, and that's a hard conversation to have.
[00:11:03] Um, but if your child is at a party or going out and being with friends without adult supervision, that there is likelihood that something very dangerous could be introduced without the intention of it being dangerous. So. Tools are really, you know, not avoiding it. I have a term that's called hard, easy, or easy, hard, and I mean, it's really just like, have a hard conversation now and be able to exhale, which doesn't mean there's it's solution, but at least you know, the hard conversation has happened in a way, um, that opens up the conversation.
[00:11:38] Or easy, hard, which is hope that things go well and that, you know, we've kind of scared them enough to not do terrible things and hold your breath for hard because hard is out there and, and these kids are exposed to more and more and, you know, middle school and high school students aren't just. Adults that aren't adults yet.
[00:12:01] Right. They, they actually have a different brain. Yeah. So we need to treat them as such. I know they look like adults a lot of times, but, but they don't think like adults. Right. So they don't, they don't have that parental lobe development yet. And my, I mean, my favorite word is curiosity. And curiosity that is not, doesn't have an undertone of agenda or fear or expectation.
[00:12:22] Right. Right. So, a curious question that has an agenda is have you ever tried drugs at a party? There's an expected answer there, right? And a curious question that doesn't have an agenda is have you thought about how you might handle drugs at a party? And that's really an empowering question because it's believing that your child is capable to make a good decision for themselves, or at least think through what a good decision would be and that that'll get somebody to pause.
[00:12:58] When they are at a party and they're handed something to maybe say, Hmm, is this what I want to do? Um, or am I feeling pressured? It, it just gives them a lot, it just gives them a second tot into themselves. Um, 'cause as much as you wish you were, you're not there.
[00:13:14] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:13:14]  Lisa Katona Smith: And they don't have a full frontal lo so
[00:13:16] Casey O'Roarty: they
[00:13:17]  Lisa Katona Smith: Yeah.
[00:13:17] Casey O'Roarty: And they don't, and that's not a character flaw that is teen brain development. I, exactly. Lisa, this is so. Overlapping. I'm in the middle of recording a middle school series right now. I love hard, easy versus easy, hard. I just, last week, I think it was put out a show that's about conversations you can't avoid.
[00:13:37] I think parents of sixth and seventh graders, there's this idea that if we talk about it, then they're gonna do it, and it actually doesn't keep our kids safe when they don't have an adult who they know can handle. And is willing to go into these hard conversations. And you know, I, I've been in presentations and things and talked about stuff like pornography and sex and pregnancy, and it's like, no.
[00:14:05] Your sixth grader might look like they're eight years old still, and you've gotta talk about porn and you don't know what's gonna come up when they're out in the world. And you know, going back to the, I remember when my kids were in middle school and I had a friend who was a teacher at the local middle school and she brought up the pills in a bowl thing.
[00:14:26] And I was like, no way. That's not really, that's just happening on euphoria. Like that's not a real thing that's happening. And it didn't show up. So far, it hasn't shown up in, in, at least in what I'm hearing from my own kids, 19 and 22, however, talking about it. So bringing these things up, I loved what you said about curiosity and languaging, and I love the messaging too of, I believe you're capable enough to have a plan, should this come up.
[00:14:55] But also the messaging of, and I'm, I'm willing to talk about it. Like, let's talk about it. I'm not gonna freak out. I'm not in this like, oh God. I mean, my mom used to say, if I ever find out you, you know, you've smoked a cigarette or hang out with smokers, you're grounded till you're 35. Right, right. That was the big time.
[00:15:12] So you lie. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So you lie. So I lied and then guess what? I totally became addicted to nicotine and you know, I'm good now, but it was a long, annoying relationship that I had with nicotine. Um, that I blame on my mom. No, I'm just kidding. I don't blame my mom.
[00:15:27]  Lisa Katona Smith: I think too, you know, it's not just, I think it's, it's a both and it's, yeah.
[00:15:32] Believing that your kids have thought about this and are capable of thinking about this, or if they haven't yet thought about that, do you wanna think about it with me? Mm-hmm. Like, right. Like you're opening up the opportunity to think about it. And that's not. Planting a seed, right? That's not planting curiosity.
[00:15:50] You've raised them, right, like you, you raised them to this point. They've got a good head on their shoulders. They got good values. They're in your family system and they want good for themselves. They're not looking to go out and be bad. The other piece of things that I think is really, really important is.
[00:16:06] Just like what you said about your mom, we look at the behavior that's scary and we focus on the behavior as opposed to asking questions, being curious and having conversations around. What do you think would lead to that? What would lead to you saying yes to that? What would you know? Why have you been curious?
[00:16:26] Well, I've been really stressed out and my friend says that she does this, and there it helps. Oh, I had no idea you were stressed out. So all of a sudden it opens up conversations to bigger things that our kids are experiencing. And again, I, I mean, I wish we could go backwards and make life simpler. But we opened a can of worms a long time ago, and it's not going backwards.
[00:16:51] Our children are exposed to things whether we want them to be or not, whether we put the blocks on or not, they know about things that we don't even know about. Mm-hmm. So we've got to have the conversation and it's hard. It's hard for us. We don't have to have the answers. We just need to sit with them and help them figure out the answers.
[00:17:11] Casey O'Roarty: That's, I love that. That's,
[00:17:12]  Lisa Katona Smith: that's really a, a sustainable process for them because they're going to be adolescents and young adults for a while. They're going to be dealing with these challenging things for a while. I have a son who, this year, he is a, a senior in college, but I remember his freshman year at the university.
[00:17:30] And we went to the orientation, um, and they had a speaker on from the counseling office on substance use at school, and she was speaking about that the students come in and get fentanyl test drops and that they can get Narcan and they, they passed the stuff out on the lawn and there was some people wre out, some parents, these are like going into college.
[00:17:51] Students and um, and she, she was prepared for it. She said, you know, by the way, they already know about this stuff. Right? This isn't new to them about it or not. Yeah. You know, one thing. But they already do. And we are going to arm them with ways to be safe in their choices. And I just thought it was such a beautiful.
[00:18:11] Again, kind of following along. We believe that you want good for your life. Yeah. And we're gonna help you make the best decisions you can with all of the risky things that are out there that might accidentally fall in front of you.
[00:18:34] Casey O'Roarty: Well, in any time I make a list of, of life skills with groups of parents about what they want for their kids, by the time, you know, they're in their thirties 'cause their brain's finally fully developed, critical thinking is always on the list. So just going back to what you just said about you don't have to have all the answers, you don't have to know every single detail about all of these different things to bring, to engage your kids in conversation.
[00:18:58] And in fact. Not knowing actually really sets a powerful stage for really being in that curiosity and that critical thinking and like, yeah, I wonder, I wonder what the effect actually is, or I wonder mm-hmm. You know, how is that working out for that person or you know, and I've said this before on the podcast, I had a conversation with my son in like eighth grade about, listen, I am guessing that weed is gonna come into your world.
[00:19:27] And you know, I would hope that you would. Just pass on by and there might be a day where you're curious about it. Like, what are some things that you wanna think about? And we talked about, you know, where does it come from? Who am I with right now? Do they have my back? If things get weird? What are some one-liners that I can pull outta my pocket if I don't wanna do it, but I can still save face, right?
[00:19:48] Like there's so much nuance that goes along with adolescence. That parents so quickly forget about when they say, you know, just say no, or just walk away or, right. And it's, it's not that simple for them. So yes, having these conversations, you know, really begins to develop that and modeling. Right. That critical thinking that we want them to go into every situation, whether it's a new relationship or a class or a new job.
[00:20:15] We want them to be critical thinkers, so they have to practice. Yes. Critical thinking. Okay.
[00:20:19]  Lisa Katona Smith: Yeah. And that totally aligns with, I mean, the title of my book, but the whole philosophy on my process, which is parallel. Yes. Love that recovery. Right? It's a parallel process of modeling, and that's the control that you have.
[00:20:34] That's the way you can lead the way as opposed to just shaking your finger or making threats or you know, trying to use fear. And I. I'm gonna kind of take another layer deeper even. Yeah. Please. Another important conversation to have is, um, vulnerability to substances becoming a problem for you because everybody's brain is not wired the same and everybody's sort of family, um, patterns of mental health and substance use aren't the same.
[00:21:05] And I, it's really important as a family to not hide, you know, that you might have. You know, all the siblings in, you know, the, on the mother's side or something have, have mental health or substance use issues. That's not something to hide, that's something to talk about. Mm-hmm. And not in a fearful way, but to be able to say, you know, these are things that you need to know about yourself because they could put you at risk.
[00:21:27] So what are the things that you are going to be able to, to notice about yourself changing? If you start to feel like maybe you're in trouble, how are you gonna know? And how would you like me to bring up? My own curiosity around, I'm noticing some things so that we can then touch back on this conversation and say, do you remember when we were talking about your aunt and what had happened to her in her life?
[00:21:52] I'm starting to notice some things in your life that really align with hers, and I'm really concerned, and all of a sudden they're much less defensive because they have. Sort of a pinpoint of a conversation that was very loving and caring and accepting that they can refer back to, and they don't need to get upset and defensive and afraid of your questions.
[00:22:13] It's, it's very important.
[00:22:14] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. I love that. You know, I've worked really hard to just normalize that we talk about screen use, right? We'd compare screen time on our phones, and that's just. Just so that we can continue to be aware. And that's exactly how I talk about that with my kiddos too, is like, you know, the, the slippery slope is you don't realize you're in a problematic situation because it can be a slow rollout or sometimes not so slow.
[00:22:43] And so what might be some indicators for you ahead of time, right? We're having this conversation. What might be some indicators for you that. You need to take a look at some of the choices that you're making, whether it's study habits or sleep habits or substance use or screen use. And I love that. I love exactly what you're talking about.
[00:23:02] And, and it also, I think that it, what's really important too is the side effect is we're just continuing to nurture and develop and build relationship with our kiddos so that when it does come time to say, wow, I'm noticing something and I'm, I'm concerned. It doesn't have to turn defensive because they know truly that it's not about controlling them, it's about seeing them and having their back.
[00:23:28] Right. Which I think that it can get really messy, especially when fear enters the room. Right? Because we do wanna control the situation, as you and I both know from our different kinds of crazy adventures that we've been on through the teen years with our kiddos. You know, it, it, it, we wanna control it and they can feel that.
[00:23:47] Yeah. Talk about radical love in action, right. And boundaries. I love, in your book, you talk about how boundaries have somehow become confused, and I've seen this too, with rules like, well, I need to set some boundaries, and then boundaries mean, and they're gonna be compliant or else mm-hmm. And. First of all, send me the memo on how to get that to work.
[00:24:12] Yeah.
[00:24:13]  Lisa Katona Smith: I can't tell you the number of times I've heard, well, I'm setting a boundary on this and they can't do that. And I'm like, oh, right.
[00:24:19] Casey O'Roarty: Like actually they can't let me know how that goes. How's that gonna go? Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
[00:24:25]  Lisa Katona Smith: Yeah. So talk about the difference and yeah, I think loving radically means doing a lot of your own work so that you can be scared.
[00:24:36] Be present and be a witness to somebody else's experience. Um, and there's nothing scarier than watching your child make decisions that you can see 10 miles ahead are not gonna end well. Um, so radical love is really, truly sitting in those hard. Experiences with somebody else without the need for an outcome to look different, but truly loving them in this hard moment.
[00:25:02] I have this term that I use called Compassionate Witness. Being a a compassionate witness to somebody else's hard experience and just being a sounding board or. You know, holding the baggage for a minute while they, you know, kind of wipe their sweat but not doing anything with it. Um, that to me is radical love.
[00:25:26] And in terms of boundaries, like following through with that, I think a second piece of radical love is allowing for. The consequences of choices to occur, obviously within reason. We don't want somebody to harm themselves. That's not what I'm talking about, but reasonable consequences. Um, when we prevent consequences from happening, this is gonna be a, a hard one, so I'm gonna say it a couple times.
[00:25:51] When we prevent and interfere with consequences happening, we are robbing our children of learning experiences for our self-esteem.
[00:26:02] Casey O'Roarty: Say it again. Yeah, say it again. I'm gonna say it again.
[00:26:04]  Lisa Katona Smith: When we interfere with consequences of decisions that they're making, um, we are robbing them of the opportunity to learn for our own self-esteem because we, so we're choosing our
[00:26:20] Casey O'Roarty: self-esteem, we're choosing how we feel over this opportunity for learning and growth.
[00:26:27] For our kiddos. Yes. Yes, yes. And
[00:26:28]  Lisa Katona Smith: radical love says, learn how to be uncomfortable for your child's growth and wellness. Ultimately, not for this moment. They might get cut from the soccer team, or they might fail a test, or they might have some school consequences if they, for talking about substance use, if they mm-hmm.
[00:26:47] Have. You know, something go on that involves school, um, which a lot of times that happens, there may be some consequences there. Um, and interfering with those consequences is making you feel comfortable about the circumstances.
[00:27:01] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:27:02]  Lisa Katona Smith: And I, I talk about it in the book, but like, life experiences are like asteroids.
[00:27:07] They just keep coming. Oh yeah. And sometimes life will say, wait, maybe you didn't hear me. Let me throw a bigger one. Yeah. They don't get smaller, they just get
[00:27:16] Casey O'Roarty: bigger. Yes, yes, yes, yes. And I think, yeah, I mean, our family, you know, when my daughter was really in, you know, she had gotten some help. She's been on the podcast and talked about her experience and.
[00:27:31] We got to do a adolescent DBT program. She and I, when she was really in the throes of her mental health crisis and during that time my husband al it was also COVID and my husband was diagnosed with cancer and it was this life and he's good and he's doing great and he's in treatment still and he's good.
[00:27:49] But it was a devastating, amazing opportunity for both the kids to see like life's just gonna keep unfolding. And you're not always gonna be the star of the crisis. Right? And sometimes the focus is gonna have to go somewhere else and we're all here for you, but you also have to be here for you. And it was such a gift in so many ways.
[00:28:15] The way at the timing of everything, I have so many people that are like, oh my God, and then this and then this. That's awful. I'm like, actually it couldn't have been better for the way that it's supported in this kind of backdoor way. My daughter. 'cause you're right, life keeps coming and if you ignore the asteroids, yeah.
[00:28:32] They just keep getting bigger. I feel grateful for some of the really hard challenges that my family has moved through because we've gotten to move through it. We've gotten to flex those, those life skills and that relationship and the connection and, and as a, as a little unit said, look what we can move through.
[00:28:51] Yeah, it's been such a gift. That's a hard, easy. It's a hard, easy. Exactly. It's a hard, easy, and I love the idea. Also, did you, I think this is in your book, because I'm reading actually two books on substance use and right now, and so I think this is your book where you talk about the taking off and putting on the coat and taking off the coat.
[00:29:13] Mm-hmm. Will you talk a little bit about that piece too, because I think that's really important as well. Kinda fits in here.
[00:29:18]  Lisa Katona Smith: Yes. Yes. I, I mean, when we are given our little tiny child, that's perfect. Um, they, they don't say, okay, so here's the hard things you're gonna have to talk about in 10 years. And we are living in a different world than you and I grew up with, and I, I know sometimes I.
[00:29:37] I feel like I sound like an old fogey sometimes, and I'm not, but, but it's, things are changing so quickly. I can't even imagine being a, a young teenager, emerging teenager right now. It's, there's so much that has to be dealt with, so. Parents, when we've got hard feelings about our kids' experiences, the choices that they have to make, the choices that they have made, what they're faced with, we gotta deal with that ourselves.
[00:30:03] That is not theirs to deal with, that is ours to deal with. It is our. Job to show up for them, calm and regulated, and not putting our needs, our emotional needs, especially on our children. And I, in the book I talk about, you know, when we're saying things like, well, I really wish you could be there. That's emotional weight that's being put on somebody else to show up better than frankly they might.
[00:30:30] Be able to show up right now. And especially if you've got a struggling young person, and I mean, I don't know that anyone's not struggling as a young person. It's hard. It's hard to be a middle schooler and high schooler. Um, they have enough to carry. They can't carry your emotional stuff too. And you might have family history of.
[00:30:51] Substance use that that is really triggering to you. When this stuff starts coming up, that is yours to deal with. That is your parallel recovery process. Get your own separate help. I really encourage you to do that so that you can show up and love better. They do not have the capacity to carry your emotional burdens as well as theirs, your expectations, your hopes, your fears, your.
[00:31:18] Needs, um, your own trauma. They don't have it. They don't have the strength to carry yours too. They're just learning how to carry their own. Mm-hmm.
[00:31:29] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. I love that. And I just love the visual. Like they've already got a heavy coat on. Yeah. Right. They've already got a heavy coat on and then to add ours to theirs.
[00:31:38] Yeah. It, it's, it seems so simple to be talking about it, but it is all, you know, I hear it all the time, like from parents, don't they know. Don't they know how hard this is for the family? Don't they know how much I worry and chances are, I mean, I, I'm guessing. Yeah, they do. They know.
[00:31:57]  Lisa Katona Smith: Yeah, right. They do. And and they already carry that internally.
[00:32:00] Yeah. So they don't need you to remind them of it on a regular basis. It's not helpful. No. Separately from that, that doesn't mean that we don't tell our, our children that This has been really hard for me to watch. That's very different. Like I sort of, sometimes I talk about like an octopus. Um, as parents, like we've got all these arms and then tentacles on each one of those arms and we slap 'em on and we, you know, sucker all over the place and we need to take those octopus arms off and all those stickers off of our children and be able to have a separate experience.
[00:32:32] Good or bad, um, and express it to them as our own independent experience and allow them to have their own independent experience. So, um, it's not about hiding your challenges in life 'cause that's not helpful either. They need to see that. Things are challenging. Yeah. And here's how I'm handling it. So, you know, being able to say it, it has been a really difficult season to watch you struggle in school like this and I'm really glad that, you know, you are feeling like things are moving in a better direction.
[00:33:08] You know, that's really great to see. Notice what I'm not taking on is I'm feeling so much better. Mm-hmm. It's, I'm giving them all of the good. And all of the bad, and I'm keeping all of my good and all of my bad for myself. And then we can share human experiences in parallel. Mm-hmm. But not overlapping.
[00:33:30] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm. I remember saying to my girl, just like, see how hard things are for you right now, and I just want you to know, I remember saying this, life shouldn't feel this hard.
[00:33:44]  Lisa Katona Smith: Yeah.
[00:33:45] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah, and, and I'm here and, and there's support when you're ready and, you know, making it really clear, but also leaving, like keeping that energetic responsibility, hers.
[00:33:56]  Lisa Katona Smith: Yes. To
[00:33:57] Casey O'Roarty: take and roll with. Yeah. Yeah. A
[00:33:59]  Lisa Katona Smith: very different message is, I'm so sad to see you this sad. Right. Well, that's the heavy coat here. Let me give you this. Right. Carry all of what you're dealing with, and then can you by the way, make it better? Because I'm really sad too. Yeah.
[00:34:22] Casey O'Roarty: What thoughts or tips do you have? You know, because when parents, I think a lot of times we have no idea what's going on and then we maybe go to put some laundry away, or we go to grab the dishes outta their room and, and see something open a drawer. You know, that was, I remember finding some doobies that way one day in the closet, like, you should try these jeans on.
[00:34:47] Whoa, what is this? Mm-hmm. What would you, what's your advice for parents in those moments? 'cause those caught off guard moments were not always ready for 'em. You know, I, I can still feel that like, wave of like mm-hmm. What, you know, how can we start off in a place that allows for like, whoa, this is concerning.
[00:35:06] While also not being totally freaked out. How do we do that? Yeah.
[00:35:12]  Lisa Katona Smith: And stopping the conversation. Right, exactly. Like you wanna have the conversation. Exactly. Exactly. That's exactly it. And you also wanna express that like. Hey, I'm not cool with this. Just so we're clear. Yeah. Um, so I, I think the two words that you can choose are either to be reactive, um, and that's to take the initial emotional reaction that you have, which is just panic and fear.
[00:35:32] And fear is, I mean, that's our basic primal brain. It helps us. In life and death situations. This is not one. So we don't need to be in that reactive mindset and be responsive and set. So getting yourself calm probably right this second isn't the best time to do it. Also be clear with what you wanna talk about.
[00:35:52] Hey, I, when I was putting laundry away the other day, I found some stuff. You might know what I found. And I'd like to have a conversation about it. When is a good time for you? It's very similar to knocking on the door as opposed to running upstairs and opening the door and like surprising somebody.
[00:36:09] Mm-hmm. Teenagers do not like surprises. My mom used to, when I was growing up, leave a note. This was, you know, when we had house phones and she would leave a note that said, call me when you get home. And I would get home from school and see this note that said, call me when you get home. And you know, I'd have to like call her at work and ask the operator person to like get my mom And I, I was always like, what did I do?
[00:36:30] And I never did anything. It was always like, well, can you unload the dishwasher? I'm thinking, why couldn't you put that on the the note? 'cause I had panic. But it's the same thing, right? It's just like, Hey, I came across some stuff that's concerning. When's a good time to talk about it? Yeah. Now I am inviting them into a collaborative.
[00:36:49] Problem solving experience, not you are in trouble and I need to tell you what's gonna happen, and that might be what you really wanna do, but that's not going to open up a conversation to actually get more curious about what is going on. Is this. Innocent experimentation. Is this a regular thing? Is there some other stressor going on?
[00:37:15] Is there peer pressure going on? Like what is happening that I might need to know about as the adult in the picture and could help my child, even if they're 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 years old, navigate because they don't have all the answers. So responsive. Over reactive. How can I be responsive, which is invitational into a collaborative conversation?
[00:37:39] Always ask a question, when is a good time? Is now a good time to talk about that? And if you've got the avoider, 'cause you've got one of two, one is gonna say, yeah, whatever, and they're in it with you. Or if you've got the avoider that's like, no, now's not a good time. You can start to narrow that timeline.
[00:37:57] You can say, okay, that's fine. I'm gonna give you some time to think about it, but it is a really important conversation that I need to be able to have with you. Hopefully we can do that by Sunday, what day works?
[00:38:07] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
[00:38:08]  Lisa Katona Smith: And you just keep making it smaller and they may punt it a couple days, but you keep making the ask smaller until finally it's like, well, it is going to happen by five today.
[00:38:17] Pick a time for you. Um, and then if you've got the, you know, the non avoider who's fine about having the conversation, you can say, awesome. So this is what, this is what I noticed, or this is what I saw. And I really want to hear from your perspective what's going on. And you're probably gonna get some lies.
[00:38:35] Mm-hmm. Let's be real. And I always try and like peel those layers back. One question that works for me all the time is, tell me more about that.
[00:38:46] Casey O'Roarty: Oh yeah, my listeners know that one. That's the back pocket. Keep it in your back pocket. Yeah, for sure. Yeah.
[00:38:51]  Lisa Katona Smith: Yeah. So I mean, if you're trying to kind of sift through some of the BS that they're throwing out there to see if you'll just go away.
[00:38:59] Um, so tell me more about that. Whether it's my friend, this, or. I heard about this or I've only done this once. Well, tell me more. Like what, what was the circumstances around that? Go underneath the problem? Yes. To see like what was going on that led to this? Was it curiosity? Was it peer pressure? Those are two different conversations.
[00:39:21] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:39:22]  Lisa Katona Smith: Was it stress? Is there something bigger going on?
[00:39:24] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. Everything that you're talking about right now, what I really appreciate, and it's funny 'cause whenever I do. Interviews or solo shows, I can hear the YA butters in like in the distance. Mm-hmm. And you know, this idea, this outdated idea that you just gotta shut it down, right?
[00:39:42] Like you just gotta go in there and you gotta shut it down. You gotta let them know this isn't okay. And what I'm hearing you talk about and if you're listening and you're like, uh, this just sounds like a lot of fluff. What we're talking about right now is, you know, the, the metaphor that I use is the iceberg, right?
[00:40:00] Mm-hmm. And the, the use, the experimentation, it's all at the tip of the iceberg. And if you're not trying to explore what's going on underneath the surface, then you're not actually shutting anything down, right? Because those situations, those relationships that. If it's a mental health thing, that all is going to continue to exist.
[00:40:22] And bringing us back to the language that used at the top solutioning with substance use is a quick fix. Yes. It works. It, it can be a very, it works exactly. And so without having really. You know, open curious conversations with our kiddos where they know that we can, again, that we can handle it, but also with that kind of gentle, not only can I handle it, but we will be having these conversations.
[00:40:51] Like there's no, that's, we talk about kindness and firmness and, and positive discipline, and the kindness connection piece is like, yeah, by Sunday or yeah, do you wanna talk about this tomorrow morning? Or when you get home from school tomorrow, right? Mm-hmm. The limited choices. The firmness is because this conversation has to happen, right?
[00:41:11] Yes. Like I'm not letting go of that. I can, I can create space for you to be with, oh God, I have to have this conversation with my parent, but we're gonna have this conversation. So yes. I just think it's so important to highlight that this is not fluffy. This is not soft. Like this is the bravest parenting.
[00:41:33] That there is, right? Because we're getting in the ring with them. Yes. In a really meaningful way. And I just really, really appreciate what you're bringing to so many families who are really struggling. Mm-hmm. Just like you said, because it feels like hopeless and it feels like there's nothing I can do.
[00:41:52] And yeah. And, and the whole idea, the old way, you know, for any of us that have been through kinda the more traditional models of recovery, detaching. Right. Talk a little bit about that. And I'm also certified, I did do the invitation to change. Oh, great. Um, I did it just to make sure that I was doing a decent job with my clients.
[00:42:14] Um, I don't actually lead the class, but it is, it's, it's a kindness model. Yes. And so talk a little bit about. You know, the limitations of detaching with love versus staying in this compassionate relationship with our kids while they kind of move through their journey.
[00:42:31]  Lisa Katona Smith: Yep. Yeah. Thanks for bringing that up.
[00:42:32] That phrase, it makes my blood boil. Yeah. Um, and the, you know, the spirit behind it and a lot of people's practice of it is, is not unkind, but I think it's super shortsighted and limited. It, it's just not, it's too surface level. So in the past, families have been told to go to like Al-Anon, right? Mm-hmm.
[00:42:54] Which is sort of the counterpart to, um, 12 step programs for people who are identifying with having a substance problem. So it's for family members and there's some great things that Al-Anon provide that I'm not at at all saying bad things. But here's the limitation. And I mean, some of it is like. It's just not developed since it was developed.
[00:43:14] So, um, you know, when we know better, we do better. But Al-Anon sort of has this mindset of step back so that you can care for yourself. 'cause particularly, you know, today's conversation is probably not touching on people who are, I mean, it may be a few people, but, um, like full blown, really severe, high level, um, addiction.
[00:43:37] Um, but. Addiction by the way, is a spectrum. So there is mild, moderate, and severe. And why would we not treat it here and mild, um, like we should. So the detach with love is, hey, you need to get back so you can see the forest of the trees. Here you are completely in consumed with somebody else's problem and it is taking you down.
[00:44:00] And that is not a terrible statement My. Problem with it is it doesn't tell the person how to reenter that relationship. And what we know is human beings thrive in connection. And the most important, whether healthy or unhealthy connection that a human being has is their family. So. If their family can learn how to step back, say, whoa, what, what am I bringing to the table here?
[00:44:29] Like we've talked about earlier? What am I bringing with my reactiveness? What is my past stuff that's coming up here? What is my fear? Maybe you've lost a, a sibling or you watched a cousin, like when you were growing up dying, you, you saw the impact on your family, and that is bringing up a lot of stuff to you right now.
[00:44:48] That is the. Step back, and then how can I reenter this relationship so I can love this person better and invite them to join me in this curiosity thing about this life experience that they're having. Yeah. I always say detachment is not love. Yeah. Detachment is self survival is self preservation.
[00:45:09] Casey O'Roarty: It's not
[00:45:09]  Lisa Katona Smith: love.
[00:45:10] Yeah.
[00:45:10] Casey O'Roarty: Well, and and what I'm hearing you say too, like how self-awareness, how am I influencing this dynamic? How is my history clouding, not clouding, but tinting my lens that I'm looking through, figuring that out, and then how to be in relationship with what's happening with our young person without letting the baggage be the driver.
[00:45:36] Of how we're responding. Yes. That's what I'm hearing you say, and I think that's so profound regardless of what your kiddo is getting into. I think that is such important work, and it would be lovely if we could do that work before we have kids. I always laugh when I see, I always laugh when I see things like, heal yourself before you have children.
[00:45:54] I'm like, how the hell are we supposed to know? What needs to be healed until they arrive and show us. And they trigger us.
[00:46:01]  Lisa Katona Smith: Yeah. So totally. You know, another, another problem with detached love, and this is go, you know, again, this is going beyond sort of adolescent experimentation and, and some of that, but Sure.
[00:46:11] I, I'm just gonna put the numbers on the table 'cause they're very real. Yeah. Um, one in 12 people in this country fall under the diagnostic criteria for a substance use disorder. And I'm not gonna quote a number, but it's shockingly high. For adolescents who actually fall under criteria, like it's under 25.
[00:46:27] One in 25. Mm-hmm. Um, it's under that number. I, I have a number in there, but I don't wanna say it out loud 'cause I don't know if I'm exactly right. So there's a lot of people who. Diagnostically fall under the criteria for a substance use disorder, and things don't need to get so terrible that someone has to tell you to detach from your child.
[00:46:49] You can practice this stuff before. This is just good communication skills. Yeah. Yes, yes, yes. Problem. It doesn't have to, this is human relationship. Yeah, problem. Yeah. Yeah. There doesn't have to be a major problem. In fact, you should practice it. In little things like, huh, that's an interesting haircut.
[00:47:05] Like curiosity there. Yeah. Yeah. Um, or you know, just whatever, like the shirt that they decide to wear or the sandwich that they make for themselves. The music. The music that they're listening to. Totally. Mm-hmm. Like that's a benign way to practice these skills. And then, I mean, talk about hard, easy and then when the hard conversation actually has to be had with a harder topic.
[00:47:24] You've practiced it. Yes. You've got a little bit and they've practiced hearing you.
[00:47:28] Casey O'Roarty: Yes, yes. Thank you, Lisa. I'm so glad that you exist in the world. Thank you so much for your book and for spending time with me today. This is such an important conversation, and it always makes me feel, you know, personally, selfishly, I'm like, okay, good.
[00:47:44] I'm on the right track. Hmm. I'm doing the things I'm, I'm, I'm sharing a lot of what you're saying fits in so well with just the. You know, the messaging of this podcast, regardless of what the challenge is, so, yay. Thank you. Thank you for that. Um, I always finish my interviews with the same question based on the context of what we've talked about.
[00:48:05] What does joyful courage mean to you?
[00:48:09]  Lisa Katona Smith: I think joyful courage to me means, I'm gonna go back to my phrase, having the hard conversation so you can have an easier relationship, and ultimately learning the joyful piece of this is learning how to love better.
[00:48:22] Casey O'Roarty: Mm. I love that. Where can people find you and follow your work?
[00:48:26] Where can they find your book?
[00:48:28]  Lisa Katona Smith: Yeah, my book is called Parallel Recovery. It's on Amazon, it's actually available now, and um, my website is lisa catona smith.com and I'm most active on Instagram on parallel underscore recovery.
[00:48:43] Casey O'Roarty: Okay, great. I'll make sure all of those links are in the show note. Thank you so much for spending time with me.
[00:48:48] Thank you, Kiki.
[00:48:55] Thank you so much for listening. Thank you to my Sproutable partners, Julietta and Alanna. Thank you Danielle, for supporting with the show notes as well as Chris Mann and the team at PodShaper for all the support with getting the show out there and making it sound good as I mentioned. Sharing is caring. If you're willing to pass on this episode to others or take a few minutes to rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, it helps other parents find this useful content.
[00:49:22] Be sure to check out what we have going on for parents of kids of all ages and sign up for our newsletter to stay connected at besproutable.com. I see you doing all the things. I believe in you. See you next time.