Eps 616: Teen Sleep Solutions with Jessica Bryant-What Parents Need to Know

What does Joyful Courage mean to you?

“I think Joyful Courage means showing up. Definitely looking for the positive, the joy. What your child is already doing in relationship with sleep? Well, finding something, we can always find something… and loving them enough to set the boundary. Yes, to do the hard thing and remember – how much they need, scaffolding, even if it doesn’t feel like it in the moment… also just continue showing up. You know? You don’t have to do it all at once, but,… on the daily.”

Resources mentioned:

Music Therapy Calms Minds and Improves Sleep in Kids: https://bettersleep.org/blog/music-therapy-calms-minds-improves-sleep-in-kids/

Transcription

[00:00:00] Casey O'Roarty: Welcome, welcome, welcome to the Joyful Courage Podcast. This is a place where parents of tweens and teens come to find inspiration, information, and encouragement. In the messy terrain of adolescents, this season of parenting is no joke. And while the details of what we're all moving through might be slightly different, we are indeed having a very collective experience.
[00:00:30] This is a space where we center building, relationship, nurturing life skills, and leaning into our own personal growth and man. The opportunities abound, right. My name is Casey Ody. I am a parent coach, positive discipline lead trainer, and captain of the adolescent ship over at Sprout Bowl. I'm also a speaker and a published author.
[00:00:53] I've been working with parents and families for over 20 years and continue to navigate my own experience of being a mom with my two young adult kids. So honored that you're here and listening, please give back to the podcast by sharing it with friends or on social media rate. And review us on Apple or Spotify.
[00:01:13] Word of mouth is how we grow. Thank you so, so much. Enjoy the show.
[00:01:24] All right. Welcome back to the show Friends. My guest today is Jessica Bryant. Jessica is a representative of the Better Sleep Council, internationally recognized pediatric sleep strategist, keynote speaker, and the founder of Sleep Happy Consulting. She's dedicated to answering the questions exhausted parents have about their child's sleepless days and nights.
[00:01:48] She achieves this through a range of initiatives including corporate wellness events, community workshops. And personalized one-on-one support. I'm really excited to have you here today. Hi Jessica. Welcome to the pod.
[00:01:59] Jessica Bryant: Hi Casey. I'm thrilled to be here. I love the work you do for moms of teens and families of teens though.
[00:02:06] Yeah. Good. Well, you are
[00:02:07] Casey O'Roarty: one, so I'm really glad. I love it. I was saying before I hit record, I love it when I have guests who know the train of adolescents. Mm-hmm. So I'm excited to talk all about sleep with you, but before we really get into it, I wanna know how did you find yourself? In this conversation around sleep.
[00:02:25] And do you work with families of teens? Do you work more with parents of younger kids trying to get them in that good sleep space? Like what does your daily work look like?
[00:02:34] Jessica Bryant: Generally, I work more with the younger families, but as my children got older, a lot more questions were coming up and I found that, uh, people were really looking for resources.
[00:02:47] And so I help when that's needed. I've even worked with a 65-year-old man, um, talking about sleep. You just don't always find someone. So that's me. I stumbled into sleep. I've been obsessed with, uh, children and development. That's my background. Child development and college. Um, early childhood intervention specialist, kindergarten teacher.
[00:03:12] Those kind of things. But when I had my first child, like it got to be the, you know, three, four or five months and stuff just wasn't working. Mm-hmm. And I figured some stuff out and I'd not figured some other stuff out. And. Nobody really talked about sleep. Now, of course, this was 2003. Mm-hmm. So it is not like I googled and got 55 billion answers and you know, then was overwhelmed in a different, in a different way.
[00:03:42] But yeah, so a genius mom, you know, there's always that mom that's just, if you step ahead of you that you stumble on, that is really helpful. She was like, well, you know, they're supposed to sleep seven to seven. And I was like. Oh, geez. How toddlers could sleep like that. I knew kindergartners slept like that.
[00:04:00] I didn't know. Three, four or five month old baby slept like that and didn't, and I was like, okay, then I'm going right home because I finally get to test these things with my own child instead of my nanny kiddos or my kindergarten students. So sure enough, three days later, sleeping like a champ. Uh, seven to seven for years, and, um.
[00:04:22] Then I had twins. So when two babies come at once, it
[00:04:28] Casey O'Roarty: that's real.
[00:04:29] Jessica Bryant: It, it's, it's a different ball game. And so you figure out how to maintain your sanity. And one of those things was figuring out how to get them on the same, on the same plan. So they didn't do it at the speed of her, but they did both do it and.
[00:04:46] I started getting a side eye from parents, like, who's that weird person at the playgroup? You know, she's not a good mom, she's not exhausted, you know, kind of thing. And so then I just started helping friends or friends because it was at that point that nobody was talking about it and nobody was saying like, breaking it down and giving you something you could really do to change it or improve it.
[00:05:09] And so I did that for several years. And then when my, my twins were in school, I was like. How can I, how can I help people? Um, yeah. I really have a really want children to reach their full potential. I'm really passionate about development and them growing up. And then I'm also passionate about women mothers having joy and finding joy in motherhood.
[00:05:32] And I, I'm not trying to sugarcoat it, but I'm also trying to say like. You have the power to set yourself up to look for the joy to be rested. Mm-hmm. To care for yourself. And you are not expected to do what society says, which is forsake your entire wellbeing.
[00:05:51] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. For
[00:05:51] Jessica Bryant: this child for 18 years, and then wake up.
[00:05:54] And feel like you're a shell of a person because you have sacrificed everything. And I've seen so much of that now that I've made the life cycle of Right. The newborn to the launching into the World Bird launching era. Yeah. And, and, and women. So it was a balance of that. Just if there was a way I could help women in motherhood and also help children reach their full potential, I was gonna give it a whirl.
[00:06:20] I love that.
[00:06:20] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. I mean, when I go back, you know, I remember someone saying. Well, if they sleep four hours, that's like sleeping through the night. And I was like, oh good. Because I mean, we chose co-sleeping. I nursed through the night. I was okay with that, you know, and, and my kids didn't sleep long. Huge chunks.
[00:06:40] And I just, if I could go back in time, if I had to do it again, I probably would've reached out for some support because I thought the only choice was. What I was doing, which intuitively felt like the right thing to do, or leave them alone in a room to cry their eyes out until they exhausted themselves and finally went to sleep.
[00:07:00] And I just wasn't okay with that. And so, yeah, and sure enough, guess what? Everyone, they weaned, they, I, I remember my dad being like, they were never gonna get outta your bed. Well, guess what they did, right? Mm-hmm. And they're great sleepers now, but those early years, but that was something else. And then, you know, fast forward to the teen years and we know that teenagers should be getting what, like 10 hours?
[00:07:28] Mm-hmm. That's a healthy 13 to 18 year olds should get eight to 10 hours a week. Yes. And we know it's important. We know that it's, you know, I, I had somebody on at one point who talked about how the sleep deprivation, not getting enough sleep, can look a lot like mental health issues. Mm-hmm. And you know, right now we're in this period of time where.
[00:07:52] We're pathologizing and medicating our kids for mental health issues. When, you know, step number one could be, are they getting enough sleep? And as a parent who has kids. One in particular who's been through therapy and, you know, done meds and, and it's, I'm not saying that that is not right the case right?
[00:08:12] For a lot of our kids, but there's this sleep piece. So when we talk about teenagers and you reached out to me and, and we're having this conversations around teenagers, what for you make sleep so important when it comes to their health and, you know, their fullest potential academically and just how they're showing up in the world as adolescents.
[00:08:32] Jessica Bryant: In the environment where we live. I have just seen the busyness and the overcommitted and that, that feeling of, I'm not a good parent if my kid isn't in, you know, select sports by this age or fine arts, or they're in the theater or, or all these things. But at the same time, those same parents are frustrated because they expect their children to perform a at a hundred percent.
[00:09:01] All day during school and a hundred percent all day on the field, whether they're in band or sports or whatever. And I'm like. When are they sleeping?
[00:09:11] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:09:12] Jessica Bryant: And they just act like the child is in charge of it.
[00:09:16] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:09:16] Jessica Bryant: And they're supposed to be able to manage it all. I wanna say their children. Yes. They're teenagers.
[00:09:22] They still need a bedtime.
[00:09:24] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:09:25] Jessica Bryant: They still need a boundary. And, um, I worked with a group of 12-year-old girls about a year ago, and I only had 15 minutes with them. And so I sent an anonymous survey before because I kind of was like, I don't wanna go sprout about sleep, if. All these kids are sleeping, you know?
[00:09:48] Mm-hmm. Like I was gonna turn it around to a story or something else, and I asked, one of the questions was, what do you wish your parents understood about your sleep and about your life right now? And this 12-year-old girl said, I wish my parents understood that I have lots and lots of homework that I must complete.
[00:10:13] I care. I care very much about my grades. They signed me up for lots of volleyball without my permission. Hmm. That, that part, the way she phrased that without my permission. So I am doing sports the entire afternoon. By the time I get home at eight o'clock, I still have lots of homework. So I end up staying up late and waking up early.
[00:10:38] I wish that they understood the pressure. That I have to do well in everything.
[00:10:45] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:10:46] Jessica Bryant: That I end up not getting
[00:10:48] Casey O'Roarty: sleep. Yeah. Well, and I think it's, Ugh, that's so heartbreaking. And I think too, like parents would be really quick to say, no, they don't have to be perfect. They just need to do their best.
[00:11:00] Mm-hmm. Right. And I think there's this illusion that our kids just being doing their best means that they. Do it all right? Mm-hmm. And then doing it all in this landscape of not enough rest. Mm-hmm. And it is. Mm-hmm. It's fascinating to me the whole select sports thing. I've got a couple people in my orbit that I'm working with who have been on both sides of competitive dance.
[00:11:27] Mm-hmm. Um, there are these. We all think that our kids are destined to be superstars and they're not all destined to be superstars. You guys like God bless them, yet let's of course expose them to different things, but mm-hmm. Like it is okay to be mediocre. And it's okay to be bored and it's okay. Mm-hmm.
[00:11:50] To have down. Mm-hmm. It's important to have downtime. So I, I really appreciate this, um, conversation around, over committed, and it starts in those elementary years, right? Mm-hmm. And then, yes, you're, and I actually talked to a group of. Very high achieving, um, last spring and like way beyond the tax bracket that I live inside of.
[00:12:14] Mm-hmm. And we were talking about things like chores and contributions and mm-hmm. You know, having conversations and creating agreements. And they were like, well, we don't have time for that. Yes. And it's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. These are the, this is where we learn life skills. This is where we grow relationship.
[00:12:34] And, you know, the busyness of your teenager. I mean, granted, there's definitely life skill development in, in managing all of that. Mm-hmm. And organizing your stuff and being ready and punctual, but the, what they're losing out on, because there's, you've squeezed out that like household. Contribution and management mm-hmm.
[00:12:58] And being together and having time to do a family meeting and having, it's
[00:13:01] Jessica Bryant: harder. Yes. It's harder. Chores were the bane of my existence. It was, they were better at age three than they were 18 and with them, but yeah. That, it's, it's the same thing with bedtimes. It's work. Mm-hmm. And, and so it's not, it's easier to just.
[00:13:20] Let it flow or let it go, or put all that on the child's shoulders when you don't understand the perspective or how that
[00:13:29] Casey O'Roarty: feels to the child. Yeah, yeah, definitely. And I think that, you know, there is so much for parents. I think that we let go of. I feel like there's a lot of things that we're letting go of the wrong things in a lot of cases.
[00:13:44] And I'm thinking, I just did, a couple weeks ago, I did a whole interview with a gal about screens and screen limits. Mm-hmm. And that's like everybody's fucking nightmare, right. Is trying to hold those boundaries and limits and it's hard. Beating. It's a beating and bedtime and well, I need to go to bed. I can't police them about their bedtime.
[00:14:04] And so, oh, and there's also, by the way, like this illusion that in order to get into college, you need to have this like massive list of extracurricular volunteer. Activities or you're not gonna get into college, which by the way, everybody gets to go to college. You know, like there's college for everyone.
[00:14:26] It's another myth. It's a, it is. It really is. And but it creates this illusion of this urgency and this. Need. I read
[00:14:34] Jessica Bryant: somewhere that, um, that society creates a reality to the way they phrase it, like unsurvivable. Mm-hmm. And I'm like, it's true. Like all the things that if you just see in your head as a, as a mother today, I should be doing this, I should be doing that.
[00:14:52] Oh my God, I didn't do this. Keeps you so distracted from. Like you even processing what matters to you. Mm-hmm. And how you want your motherhood or your family to be, or you wanna look back when they're out of the house and be like, well, I had that time, or I did this, or, this was a really hard challenge, but we did it together, or whatever it is.
[00:15:17] And it's so true. Like it's a constant thing in my head that I have to remember, wait, wait, wait. That's not my goal. Right. That, that is not what I wanted. Okay. Rewind. Okay. Yeah. Fix it. Because I'm the only one in our family who's responsible for the activities or the driving or the, any of that. It was, it was me.
[00:15:38] Yeah. So when I was complaining about it or it was too much, it was, I had the power to change it. No one else.
[00:15:55] Casey O'Roarty: You know, and I also just, you know, as we talk about this, I have two kids, one, the younger one. My kids are your kids' age. My oldest is 22 and my youngest is 19. He's a sophomore in college and she's a junior in college. And the older one had a total. Alternative path. We'll just say, um, to getting to where she is today.
[00:16:19] And it, you know, she's been on the podcast and talked about it. I talk about her a lot here on the show, but, you know, it was, there was a lot of men, there was mental health issues, there was some substance use issues. There was all sorts of things. And you know, just her temperament and who she was. Her path to right now today looked, I mean in the moment I was like, what is actually happening right now?
[00:16:42] This is not how it should be. And then I had this other kid who's like very much the traditional. Paved road to college and I was talking to a client of mine who, her, her child is kind of different details, but more like my daughter, where, you know, there was a lot of like, oh God, oh God, what's gonna happen?
[00:17:03] What's he gonna ultimately decide to do? Mm-hmm. Yeah. And guess what? He's doing great. And he's exactly where he needs to be. She is exactly where she needs to be. And had we. Strong armed her as if we could have done that, um, had we strong harmed her into this model that felt more comfortable and familiar to us.
[00:17:23] Mm-hmm. There could have been a lot of damage, and I don't know where she would be today had we tried, had we not kind of accepted her story for being what it is. And so when we think about meeting the child that we have, mm-hmm. And recognizing what's getting in the way and recognizing these stories, these illusions, these myths.
[00:17:47] Mm-hmm.
[00:17:47] What do you think is a practical first step for parents? Who's realizing like, oh, we're trapped in this cycle, this idea that it has to look so, so busy and it's getting in the way of my child's wellbeing. Mm-hmm. Where, where do we start to dismantle that?
[00:18:06] Jessica Bryant: Mm-hmm. It, it's really hard to unpack and it, and it's so individual for every, every, every parent, and I think it starts with just observing and being curious and wondering, you know, if it is something that say is sleep related, you know, starting to notice.
[00:18:27] What time does your child need to get up for school? Or what are, what are the patterns in the morning? Are you having to go in multiple times and wake them up because they haven't gotten up independently with their alarm, or are you already at work and they're sleeping through, you know, beginning of school and they're late, you know, and starting to track things.
[00:18:46] If you have a child who is irritable or super grouchy and relentless. You know, again, what does their sleep look like? What are their rou routines look like? Are they struggling at bedtime, just falling asleep? Or do you have any idea what time they're going to sleep? So just starting wherever you are and reflecting, I think, on what patterns are in your home.
[00:19:14] Mm-hmm. And are your kids, your teenagers, getting the rest you need? And I think the first thing that. It is kind of hard to figure out is what does good sleep look like? Mm-hmm. I think that's a question that someone has. I mean, I took my youngest daughter to the pediatrician, um, at se her 17-year-old checkup.
[00:19:38] You know, we did all the things and I, you know, you get the big packet and at the very bottom, you know, it, it talks about helmet use on the bicycle and sunscreen and all this, and, you know, five fruits and vegetables and all this stuff. Do you know what it said? Like font size five, get enough sleep. It wasn't even, is that help a parent?
[00:20:04] Yeah. It doesn't even tell him how much. Right. So for 13 to 18 year olds, the um, sleep amount is eight to 10 hours a night. Mm-hmm. But something else that parents of teenagers need to know is what good sleep looks like. It's silent. It's uninterrupted. Mm. So that means are we mouth breathing? Are we snoring?
[00:20:29] That's not normal. If that's, if your child, the parents still say, oh, they sleep great. You know, she can sleep anywhere. You know, she, she sleeps every night. She goes to bed early, but she sleeps an hour and a half and, you know, in the afternoon. Um, but she wakes up and she's not rested. There's something going on.
[00:20:48] And a lot of times it's an airway issue, so that is definitely an expertise to follow through with pediatrician, ENT, airway, dentists, those kind of things. Mm-hmm. Because it, that, that means there could be some sleep apnea going on, and so they're not getting into the deep, deep wave sleep and all of that.
[00:21:06] Casey O'Roarty: How often is that, you know, when we're talking about adolescence, is that a pretty common situation?
[00:21:15] Jessica Bryant: We're finding it's more common than I think we realized in the past. Um, I don't have an exact, um, data point for you right this minute, but it is definitely a lot of things that we think about sleep that are good.
[00:21:31] Oh, well, she falls asleep right when she gets in bed. That's actually not good. That's a myth. That's your body being starved for sleep. You know, kind of like you're starving 'cause you haven't eaten all day. And you go and you eat all the carbs. Mm-hmm. And because your, your body just needs fuel so immediate that that's what it, it it signals for.
[00:21:52] It's the same thing. Your body needs sleep so bad, your brain needs sleep so bad that it, you pass out instantly. The other reason I talk about uninterrupted sleep is one of my friends shared with me, his son was, um, he had had a concussion in a sports related in injury, and then they started to kind of notice some like mental health red flags.
[00:22:18] Then he started cutting himself. He said, you know, I had asked him multiple times, how was his sleep? Was he sleeping okay? I had paid attention to bedtime and all of those things. Well, what they. Didn't realize until he started, um, going to the counselor was he was waking up every 45 minutes. So he, it was very broken sleep.
[00:22:39] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:22:40] Jessica Bryant: And so any kind of interruption, five hours or less is, is called fragmented sleep. And that can be really damaging to, um. To just your brain because it's never getting that consistent passing through four different cycles and rem sleep to completely do downloads and all sorts of memory processing and just flushing out and pruning and all of those things.
[00:23:05] Um, 'cause it's getting interrupted. And so that plays out into life in many different ways. Um, if you're chronically sleep deprived for, you know, mm-hmm. Day in, day out, month. Every month, year and things like that.
[00:23:21] Casey O'Roarty: I don't know if any of the listeners are having this experience, but as I listen to you, I'm thinking to myself, oh, I haven't slept like eight hours straight without waking up.
[00:23:31] I don't remember the last time that happened. I mean, I get up to pee or I. I mean, so anyway, we don't have to go down that rabbit hole, but maybe, well, I
[00:23:40] Jessica Bryant: mean, for adults it's a d we're talking about the growing
[00:23:44] Casey O'Roarty: brain and
[00:23:45] Jessica Bryant: we're talking about the growing brain, and you know, if they, if you're sleeping six hours, you wake up and you go to the bathroom, you get right back, you get back in bed, and you're not perimenopausal or menopausal, and you go right back to sleep, then that is fine.
[00:23:59] Okay, but it's the waking up every 45 minutes or um, if you have sleep apnea, you know, there's all sorts of monitoring where you have, you know, my husband had like 56 episodes of, you know, not getting oxygen in a 60 minute period. You know, so mine
[00:24:17] Casey O'Roarty: too. Mine too. He is got a CCP pap now and we're both sleeping better, so, yeah.
[00:24:21] Yeah, it's crazy. Yes.
[00:24:22] Jessica Bryant: Yeah. And there's a whole nother conversation about. Oral development in children and things like that, that are contributing to us realizing there's more airway problems than maybe we thought about in the past. Yeah. But I only say that to just give that really detailed explanation to parents of teenagers so that they know what sleep looks like.
[00:24:46] So eight to 10 hours is what's recommended by American Academy Sleep Medicine, also Academy, American Academy of Pediatrics, um, needs to be silent. Uninterrupted and they wake up feeling rested. So they wake up before their alarm or they, you know, on the weekend they wake up, those kind of things, but. The other hard part is that developmentally, their bodies don't release the hormones to wind down and all of those things until later.
[00:25:19] Yeah. So that 10 or 11-year-old that, you know, was doing great, going to sleep at like eight or nine o'clock at night and sleeping all night, um, now you've suddenly got like a 13 or a 14-year-old who's telling you, but I can't fall asleep, you know? Mm-hmm. Um, until 10 and, and then they've gotta be up at.
[00:25:37] Six or whatever for band practice. Mm-hmm. Like those, those are challenges. Um, so just being aware of those things Yeah. Really helps you understand and look at sleep in your house and be able to evaluate it a little bit better, I
[00:25:53] Casey O'Roarty: feel
[00:25:53] Jessica Bryant: like. Yeah.
[00:25:54] Casey O'Roarty: Well, and as we are talking, you know, I've got questions for you around like binge watching shows and caffeine and all-nighters.
[00:26:03] But it, like, I'm realizing too, who we're talking to right now are parents and as being parents of teenagers, both of us, um, like yes. Okay, great. The information is great and you know, it screens. I mean, again, that's a rabbit hole. Listen to whatever episode it was that I had Dr. Twangy on, everyone, because she talks about the rules of screens like we have to be for, there's only so much we can control.
[00:26:33] Right? Right. And so what I'm hearing you say is, first of all, parents, this is a thing, like this is a big deal. This is not something we can just say, well, I gotta go to bed. So. Good luck with sleep. Mm-hmm. Right. We get to be the leaders of our households and, and what I'd love to talk to you about is what, what's in our control one?
[00:26:57] And also just like with screens, something that I talk a lot about with, with clients and parents is. You know, normalizing the conversation about sleep and like we get to talk about sleep. Just like we talk about, you know, healthy movement mm-hmm. And healthy diet. Mm-hmm. And even though the healthy diet conversation, I know there's a lot of, it's, it's has gotten kind of sticky and weird and.
[00:27:23] We get to make sure that we have, you know, all the quality food in our home. We get to make sure that we have guidelines and limits on the screen time. We get to make sure that there is an environment that's conducive to sleep, while also the very real reality of our kids' circadian rhythm. So, how. What does it look like to create an environment to invite, because I think this has to be an invitation too.
[00:27:52] Yes, yes. So let's, sure. Let's just talk about like that practicality of living with these young people who are like, I am not going to bed at nine.
[00:28:01] Mm-hmm.
[00:28:02] Like, I'm not, you know, or whatever. How do we. Right. There's, and there's no strong arming, like what does it look like?
[00:28:09] Jessica Bryant: Right? And as for parents, I wanna revisit the foundation that you can control, right?
[00:28:15] You're providing shelter, you're providing food, you're providing comfort and love. Sleep is on that. Mm-hmm. That lowest basic level, you need that first. And so if, if you're finding that you don't have that and you need to work on that in your family, I think it's just acknowledging, you know what, as parents, my job is to make sure that you are getting the sleep you need for development and health and all of those things.
[00:28:43] Part of my job, and right now we're not. Sleeping healthy. And so we're just gonna explore some things and we're gonna talk about it a little more. Mm-hmm. Because I wanna notice like, how is your body, you know, how is your body feel? I mean, in our family, we talk about our sleep every single morning. And a lot of times it, when my kids were home, they were the ones asking, how is your sleep?
[00:29:04] You know, um, things like that. And I do have one child who really struggled this. Sleep. Sleep. And she's a actually doing better in college. So that is amazing. So I think it's that. I think it's then bringing in the science and showing them, you know, examples. I mean 93% of the most successful sports celebrities.
[00:29:27] They sleep very well. Mm-hmm. If you do a little research, so if you've got a kiddo who's like, no, I gotta practice throwing the football or whatever, you know, you can give other examples kind of just off the cuff, oh, did you know? You know? Mm-hmm. Um, and yeah, I do really think that, like you said, it needs to be a team effort.
[00:29:46] Let's learn together. Um, let's notice things about our body. Like are you a morning person? Are you a night person? Um, when, if. Any time of day you could do your homework. When, when is it the easiest? Get your homework done. You know, things like that. And talking about, oh, you know, you have to be at school at six 15, but if you look at this stat like you've been falling asleep at 11 every night.
[00:30:13] Let's see how you feel tomorrow morning. Mm-hmm. Or things like that. Um, another thing is setting multiple alarms. Kids love to do that. I know. They, and that is basically training your brain to go back to sleep because your alarm goes off, you hit off. And you close your eyes and you go back to sleep and you stay in the dark room.
[00:30:36] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:30:36] Jessica Bryant: So like, if that's something that's happening in your family, is have a discussion on how can I help you just set one alarm and get up. Mm-hmm. And one of the things you can do is get your eyes in the light as soon as possible so you know if your child is independent as they should be in the morning.
[00:30:54] You know, but they're doing five alarms and then rushing and grouchy and all the things. It's how can you support them? Maybe a couple of days you set one alarm. Then I come in, I open the windows, turn on all the lights, you know, turn off the fan and leave the room, you know, so that you can kind of help retrain your brain for a couple of days.
[00:31:15] I think a big thing is. Is when these kiddos enter middle school, really understanding what kind of classes they're signing up for or what kind of student you have. Like the example that I used with the young girl who shared, you know, how important school was and how driven she was. Look at, okay, how many advanced classes are you signing up for?
[00:31:41] You know? And yes, your point, like, we've gotta get all these things done for college. We don't necessarily have to have them all done in seventh grade. Yeah. And also, we do not need to kill the nervous system in high school so that then we get to college and they don't know what to do with all this time management and mm-hmm.
[00:32:02] All of those things when every little. Minute of their life has
[00:32:06] Casey O'Roarty: been scheduled up until this point. I'm gonna pause. I wanna pause you there. That's really an interesting, what you just said. I don't think anybody ever talks about that. And granted, my kids were not really too overscheduled and even then, you know, my son going away to college and just being like, you know, actually I have.
[00:32:25] A lot of downtime. There is a lot of downtime and granted, there's the expectation of, okay, for every class hour you should have X amount of study hours. Doesn't always, the math doesn't always math on that one. And so I, I really appreciate what you're saying 'cause I like to talk about, especially mostly senior year parenting a year ahead and really giving our kids enough freedom and space to try on.
[00:32:54] Some of that of how it's gonna feel when they're out there on their own if, if they're heading out on their own before they're actually out there. And I think that's a really important piece is, yeah, how to use this free spaciousness, what feels like spaciousness in a way that's forwarding and helpful and healthy.
[00:33:18] And the other thing that I'm hearing you talk about too is. Again, inviting our kids into recognizing and valuing sleep over the things that are getting in the way of sleep. You know, and I remember being a teenager back in the old days when the whole family shared one phone line. And I was not allowed to get phone calls after nine o'clock.
[00:33:51] Now, did my friends call me after me, my friends would call. I wasn't allowed to answer it. And they learned really quickly that, you know mm-hmm. They would be pretty much shamed by my parents. Mm-hmm. By my stepmom. So that was a thing. Mm-hmm. And then coming back to what in the environment can we control?
[00:34:09] Mm-hmm. And I'm thinking about things like, you know, does, does the wifi, like let's turn off the wifi. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Let's get the screens outta their rooms. Mm-hmm. Let's, let's offer the belief, 'cause I've heard from parents like, oh, my kiddo, it doesn't matter how many times I go in, they just won't get up.
[00:34:27] And first of all, it's, that's a red flag. Yeah. Well, it's their
[00:34:31] Jessica Bryant: job. Um, I stopped in first grade. My daughter, like, she, I figured out real quick. Yeah, that she was much better at getting up on her own. Yeah. And doing it her own way. Yeah. And if I was up there, much worse.
[00:34:55] Casey O'Roarty: I mean, I feel like the real rub is just getting the teenagers to recognize the value. Of sleep.
[00:35:09] Mm-hmm.
[00:35:09] And I mean, and I love what you, when you first said like, bring in the research, I was like, oh, Jessica, like, they don't know. Like that's when we become the Charlie Brown parents. But then you went right into, look at the celebrity athletes.
[00:35:20] Look at the, like the Yes. Look at the model. Like let's talk about the people that are doing the things that you wanna be really good at. What's their routine? Mm-hmm. What does sleep look like for them? So I appreciated that. That's where you went instead of like research shows, you know, because that's, you gotta find the hook, you know?
[00:35:38] Yeah. You gotta find the hook that's gonna convince them, and maybe not even convince them, but at least move the dial a little bit. And I wanna acknowledge too, if you're in a dynamic with your kiddo, where every question you ask feels like a trap, then as you think like, okay, we're gonna check in on sleep every morning, and they know, oh, this is you trying to get me to do something different, then you're not gonna necessarily get an honest answer.
[00:36:05] And so there might also be some cleanup just in the relationship, and it could sound like, listen, I don't, you know, you, you get to, obviously I can't force you to sleep. No. What I wanna do is help you grow in your awareness of what it feels like in your body when you're getting good sleep versus when you're not getting good sleep.
[00:36:26] Like that's the big agenda. Yes.
[00:36:28] Jessica Bryant: Yes. Right. And, and to be an a, you're teaching, you're empowering them to be an advocate for their body. Yeah. And to listen to their body and care for it and slow down. Yeah. And, and, and sometimes it could simply be, hey. We're not sleeping well in the house. And as the parent, I'm gonna start working on my sleep Yes.
[00:36:50] Model and, and you're gonna check in with that modeling and really not say much. You could also say, oh my gosh, I feel so much better. Or, oh my gosh, I lost my cool at work today. You know? And I was so irrational and I don't know, you know, I don't know why, you know, sharing the. The communication and getting it out because you don't expect the teenager to really have the buy-in at the beginning.
[00:37:19] For sure. Yeah. Um, and then just really watch yourself, like how much are you going around having fomo. Like how much are you filling your time so that you don't have to do the hard things? Mm-hmm. That might come back and either kick and kick you in the butt, whether it is your own health or your child's.
[00:37:41] Yeah. Because if you don't do it, the universe, well, you know, oh, I know that to some point. Yes. Um, but I really, I mean, there's so many, you never know what's gonna hit. Apparent in their own lived experience. Yeah. But it's what is the big picture? You know? Do you wanna feel like you were present in these, you know, final years as much as you could be?
[00:38:05] You know, life is, even if you're slow, it's still crazy. And I know you were really getting to practical things. Um, and a lot of times I was the weird parent because I didn't let my kids sleep till 2:00 PM on a Saturday. You know, just so that they could get more sleep. Because what I found is then that Saturday night, then they really couldn't go to sleep.
[00:38:32] You know, at 11 or 12 or whatever. So then they were up till two again. And so then when you got back to Sunday, you know they're going to bed at 2:00 AM right? And then they gotta be on the, on the field with their instrument at six 15. Right? So I didn't make 'em wake up at the same time that they did during the week, but I try to protect their sleep and like set a boundary for when they had to be awake.
[00:38:56] And another thing you said, you can't force them, and I always phrased it as. You know, upstairs time or mm-hmm. At this point, like everything was turned down. If you are reading, if you are knitting, if you're drawing, if you're journaling, if you're, um, doing a headstand in your room, that's fine, but it is, you, you've got the lamp on, you have showered brushed teeth, and if you're doing.
[00:39:24] Whatever calming thing you wanna do, or just laying in the floor twiddling your thumbs. Mm-hmm. Fantastic.
[00:39:30] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:39:31] Jessica Bryant: So not set, because I think that's another thing that adults don't realize is our brains need help. Yeah. They need signaling to know what's coming next. So this, let's hurry up and do all these things at, you know, 10, 15 at night, and then hurry up, hurry up, go lay in bed.
[00:39:52] And like to expect a teenager to just be able to lay down and go instantly to sleep. The brain hasn't gotten the update that in, you know, now it's nighttime, you know? Yeah. And we're slowing down and sleep is coming next, you know? Yeah. So it's just like that light signal in the morning, you know, helping that circadian rhythm, helping match it.
[00:40:13] And absolutely, if you wake up and you go to bed at the same time every day, your body is gonna feel better. I realize that that is not. Doable a lot of times, but yeah. You know, helping with them with their bedtime. Mm-hmm.
[00:40:28] Casey O'Roarty: You
[00:40:28] Jessica Bryant: know, aromatherapy. Yeah. Or an I mat or, you know, especially our younger teens, they just, they just love, they talk about all kinds of things at that time of night.
[00:40:40] If you can just lay across the bed and. Listen, and they just want your presence, you know? Yeah. They don't, they don't want you telling them stuff to do or anything. Right. But if you're listening, oh man, that's a, yeah.
[00:40:54] Casey O'Roarty: Good
[00:40:54] Jessica Bryant: time.
[00:40:55] Casey O'Roarty: Well, and I, I love that. I love environment. I, I remember when the kids were young, right?
[00:41:02] Like, we absolute, we were so good about that, like the visual signals that we're moving towards a bedtime routine. And I think that's what I'm hearing you talking about is like mm-hmm. What does the evening look like? And I, I mean, we can't talk about. Sleep without, you know, acknowledging that there's gotta be a routine where the screens are not in the bedroom and turned off mm-hmm.
[00:41:26] And turned off with enough time for their brains to re like caliber. Mm-hmm. To, okay. Like the lights are dimmer and there's certain essential oils that are, you know, mm-hmm. Or incense or whatever you use at your house. That like giving the signals towards. Quieting down, and maybe it is that you're sitting up and doing homework, but it's, you know, I mean, ugh.
[00:41:50] And then it's screens again. But I don't wanna talk about screens, and I love the modeling suggestion. Like I have a alarm on my phone that goes off at eight forty five that says your future self wants you to think about going to bed. I love that. I love that. Yeah. And my family's like, oh mom, your future self is calling.
[00:42:11] You know, when they're home, like we get a laugh, and it doesn't mean that I go start going to bed at 8 45. No. But it's a little indicator that's like, Hey, it's 8 45. Like it's 8 45. So you get to decide what the next hour or two even mm-hmm. Is gonna look like, you know? Mm-hmm. Do you wanna hit play again on.
[00:42:31] Landman or whatever show it is that you've, I just started watching Landman with my husband, um, or whatever the show is that is so easy to just keep watching and mm-hmm. So that model is so big, and I love, again, I'm gonna bring this back again, talking about it as a family problem to solve as a family routine mm-hmm.
[00:42:51] As a family. Focus, I think is so, so much more powerful than, Hey, you kid, you have a problem with sleep and we're gonna fix it. Right? Right. I think that it really turns it into this. Collaborative invitation that's going to over time have a much more likely result in better sleep hygiene. So I really appreciate that.
[00:43:11] And
[00:43:12] Jessica Bryant: don't worry if they don't engage because Yeah, I'm, I'm sure in all of your, your work too, but they're paying attention. So if you're sitting there saying like, oh. I'm so frustrated I stayed up too late scrolling, whatever, or I watched that last show and oh man, I really paid for it, or, mm-hmm. Um, or you blow up at them.
[00:43:36] And you maybe overreact to something that you later think, I didn't approach that, right. Mm-hmm.
[00:43:43] Casey O'Roarty: It's,
[00:43:43] Jessica Bryant: Hey, you know, I'm really sorry. Um, I'm, I've been trying to work on my sleep, but I didn't sleep last night, you know? Mm-hmm. I, I was up at 3:00 AM and, you know, and so I'm gonna go to bed early, or I'm gonna take a bath tonight.
[00:43:58] Mm-hmm. You know, just that. That practical stuff. And I would say definitely get a regular, a digital alarm clock. You know, I mean, I say get that at kindergarten. Um, that way there's always, you know, an alarm. We don't have to have our phone in the bed space. And, um, and we still have the clock and we still have that ability to set an alarm.
[00:44:20] And you're speaking to the, you're speaking to the adults right now, right? Oh, the adults. Yes. And but also for the teenagers. Yeah, for sure. Put the digital clock in everyone's room and get the phone out. I'm, I'm a proponent of training with the phone as they move up in high school. Mm-hmm. And, and having them manage it, but for sure, but definitely don't need it, you know, this first couple years and then talking about.
[00:44:43] Caffeine. I know caffeine was one of your questions. Mm-hmm. And energy drinks are like in such a rage. You know, we talk about when we were growing up, there was only three channels on the TV there. Um, I don't, I could have a Coke, you know, but that wasn't allowed. Yeah. Like. At dinner that wasn't at our house.
[00:45:00] Yeah. Um, and then there was one phone line. So I think as parents we have a really hard time because a lot of these things were not available to us. And so they kind of shocked us in how, you know, we, how much we have to manage. Mm-hmm. But, um, just knowing how much these espresso drinks have, you know, if they have an iced latte or something at 5:00 PM because they're studying at Starbucks.
[00:45:25] Mm-hmm. That's 150 milligrams of caffeine that takes six to 10 hours to get out of their system. Wow. So, you know, it's, it's things like that in just. You know, and as a mom you can be like, I, I didn't know that. You know?
[00:45:40] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:45:41] Jessica Bryant: I'm learning something. I'm gonna try that next time. I'm not gonna do it. You know, AKA teenager is, you know, around and, and, um, and then.
[00:45:52] You know, just talking about the myth of allnighters that, oh, I'm just gonna study in college and stay up all night. Actually, you're gonna perform, let's see, what is the, uh, statistic like for an hour, even an hour loss of sleep you perform. 40% poor. There's a deficit on a test. So like the difference between a hundred and a 60% with just one hour of sleep loss.
[00:46:23] But if you have stayed up all night. Your brain cannot regurgitate whatever you were learning. Mm-hmm. It's not storing it. Mm-hmm. When you're staying up because you've been up for 24 hours and then you're taking a test. Yeah. So it would be much better to go to sleep and if you really have to like wake up early, you know?
[00:46:44] Yeah. And do a little review. Yeah. Or just. Sleep and take your test.
[00:46:50] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. Sleep or get your shit together and like come on a little bit every day so that you get to the test time. Right. And, and I say that Jessica, I say that as the college kid who I love to get all nighter. I loved Denny's and coffee and at that time, cigarettes and night like as if I was.
[00:47:07] Any studying. Mostly I was trying to talk my really good friend Stephanie, into just driving into Mexico and leaving it all behind, right? Like, turns out I didn't pass those classes, you know, or writing papers all night. I was pretty decent at pulling all-nighters if I was writing a paper, but studying and needing to retain, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
[00:47:28] Fortunately, I'm seeing my kids, my college kids learning and having better, better study habits than I ever had, at least in my undergraduate. Once I figured out what I wanted to do, I was a better student. But yes, thank you. Thank you for all of this. And, you know, listeners, it's, I, I, I'm sure that you're hearing themes that show up a lot on the podcast, which is an, you know, inviting invitation to collaboration, modeling the behavior that you want us.
[00:47:58] C, working on connection over correction, right? Cleaning up if the dynamic is one that has felt overly controlling. You know, you get to create an environment where you know sleep is valued and you also get to trust that you're planting seeds. There's no like, overnight perfect thing to say, perfect research point to make where they're like, oh, thanks, thanks for explaining it to me that way.
[00:48:26] Now I'm gonna go to bed at eight. Right? Like, that doesn't exist and No. Yeah. And over time we get to do the things that Jessica's brought us and, and keep in mind that that sleep matters enough for us to do the hard things like. Having the conversations and, and doing our own modeling sleep matters enough.
[00:48:47] So
[00:48:48] Jessica Bryant: the payoff is so huge because it is the one free thing that you can improve, that can improve every aspect of your life. Yeah.
[00:48:58] Casey O'Roarty: Every aspect of your life. I love that. Well, as we wrap up, I've got the question that I like to ask all of my guests, which is in the context of sleep and sleep hygiene, sleep routines, what does joyful courage mean to you?
[00:49:12] Hmm. Joyful
[00:49:15] Jessica Bryant: courage. I think it means showing up. I definitely looking for the positive, the joy. What your child is already doing in relationship for sleep. Well, finding something, we can always find something and um, and loving them enough to set the boundary. Yes, to do the hard thing and to remember. How much they need that scaffolding, even if it doesn't feel like it in the moment, but then also just continue showing up.
[00:49:48] You know? You don't have to do it all at once, but,
[00:49:50] Casey O'Roarty: mm-hmm. Mm-hmm mm. On the daily. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Thank you. Where can people find you and follow your
[00:49:58] Jessica Bryant: work? Um, you can definitely find us, uh, the Better Sleep Council has a new podcast ourselves catching Zs. So check us out. And we've had a recent episode I did on how music can help at bedtime for teens.
[00:50:15] Okay. And also breath work. Um, so there's lots of other hosts as well. So some great information there. And if you'd like to connect with me personally, you can find me over on. Sleep happy at Instagram, so at sleep
[00:50:29] Casey O'Roarty: happy. So, okay. Thank you so much. Will you send me a link to those two podcast episodes that you just mentioned?
[00:50:36] Yes, absolutely. And I'll make sure, I'll make sure they're in the show notes for the listeners. Thank you so much for hanging out with me today. This was really useful. This was awesome, Casey. Thanks so much for inviting me. It was a pleasure.
[00:50:51] Thank you so much for listening. Thank you to my s Spreadable partners, Julietta and Alana. Thank you Danielle, for supporting with the show notes. As well as Chris Mann and the team at Pod Shaper for all the support with getting the show out there and making it sound good. As I mentioned, sharing is caring.
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[00:51:28] I see you doing all the things. I believe in you. See you next time.
[00:51:37] I.