Eps 624: College Admission Truths with David Blobaum

“Joyful courage means telling the truth to families. When a family calls in and says, ‘Hey, we have a 900 on the SAT, I want to get test prep for my kid to get a 1500 on the SAT,’ it’s having the courage to say, ‘That’s probably not going to happen.’ You would be surprised that most test prep companies will not tell you the truth. They will just take your money, and you won’t get the results and you’ll be disappointed. Joyful courage is having the courage to tell people the truth, even when they don’t want to hear that truth. It might mean that they walk away from us for test prep, but I feel good about the fact that we’ve told the truth. We’ve done what’s right.”

– David Blombaum

Resources:

• Common Data Set – A publicly available dataset for colleges showing admissions criteria (sections C7 and C9 are particularly important for understanding test score requirements and admissions factors)
• National Test Prep Association – David’s organization that vets ethical test prep companies and tutors; offers a directory of quality tutors
• Malcolm Gladwell’s latest book – Tipping Point: How little things make a big difference – Discusses athletic recruitment and college admissions
• How to win friends and influence people by Dale Carnegie – Business book David recommended as essential reading, describing it as really about “how to be a good person”
• Chat GPT – Mentioned as a tool students can use ethically for college list building and essay guidance (inputting preferences and getting college recommendations)

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Transcription

JC Ep 624 (11.10.25) - Final
[00:00:00] Casey O'Roarty: Welcome, welcome, welcome to the Joyful Courage Podcast. This is a place where parents of tweens and teens come to find inspiration, information, and encouragement. In the messy terrain of adolescents, this season of parenting is no joke. And while the details of what we're all moving through might be slightly different, we are indeed having a very collective experience.
[00:00:30] This is a space where we center building, relationship, nurturing life skills, and leaning into our own personal growth and man. The opportunities abound, right. My name is Casey Ody. I am a parent coach, positive discipline lead trainer, and captain of the adolescent ship over at Sprout Bowl. I'm also a speaker and a published author.
[00:00:53] I've been working with parents and families for over 20 years. And continue to navigate my own experience of being a mom with my two young adult kids. I'm so honored that you're here and listening. Please give back to the podcast by sharing it with friends or on social media rate and review us on Apple or Spotify.
[00:01:13] Word of mouth is how we grow. Thank you so, so much. Enjoy the show.
[00:01:24] All right. Hi listeners. Welcome back to the podcast. I'm so glad that you're here and I'm excited to introduce my guest, David Blow, Baum. David is a nationally recognized expert in the entrance exam and college admissions industry. He serves on the board of directors and is the director of outreach for the National Test Prep Association.
[00:01:45] Which works to support the appropriate use of testing admissions. He has devoted himself to helping students reach their potential through education and more broadly to help empower them to succeed in life. I'm so excited to have you here, David. I think this conversation's gonna be so useful for so many of my listeners.
[00:02:05] Welcome to the podcast.
[00:02:07] David Blobaum: Thank you, Casey. It's great to be here.
[00:02:09] Casey O'Roarty: How did you find yourself in this position of doing what you do and talking about. Test prep,
[00:02:15] David Blobaum: how
[00:02:15] Casey O'Roarty: does one find themselves there, David?
[00:02:17] David Blobaum: Typically not on purpose. So I mean, for me it was, I graduated, um, from the University of Chicago in 2010 during the Great Recession.
[00:02:28] I didn't know what I wanted to do with my life. Um, did a lot of applications. I ended up getting actually a job offer from the CIA to be a leadership analyst. Oh, are
[00:02:37] Casey O'Roarty: you allowed to say that out loud?
[00:02:39] David Blobaum: Well, well, just kidding. I got their conditional approval, their long scope background check, take six to 12 months.
[00:02:45] So while I was waiting for that, I was like, okay, I have to do something. So I started tutoring. You know, just on the side, I ended up absolutely loving it, getting promoted within the company, eventually starting my own company. And it actually would've been basically a step back to then go work for the CIA.
[00:03:02] So I ultimately turned that down. Um, I couldn't be happier with the, the decision, but most people don't go into test prep on purpose.
[00:03:10] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah, I know. I've really, and now I have a million questions about the CI, but we won't go there. We won't go there. So. So you found yourself in this situation and you love it, which is awesome.
[00:03:22] And thank you for your service for our. With our youth. That's, you know, appreciated for sure. Anyone who wants to work with adolescents, you know, I'm giving a big thumbs up too. So talking about test prep and college admissions and what's happening. I mentioned to you before I hit record, and my listeners know, I've got two kids in college right now, and I shared with you, neither of them did a CT or SAT and we don't have to get into the why of that, but you know, post COVID.
[00:03:53] It felt like everything changed. Not to mention it had been, you know, quite a few years since I went through the college application process. So what's changed in college admissions over the past few years? What stayed the same?
[00:04:08] David Blobaum: Yeah, what a, I mean, it's an excellent question. So. A lot has changed. A lot has stayed the same.
[00:04:13] So the main things that have changed are testing and college essays. So testing has changed because as you mentioned before, COVI, the vast majority of schools required SAT and a CT scores to even apply Now post COVID, I. While most schools took a, what they said was gonna be a temporary hiatus from, uh, requiring test scores, colleges found that they basically doubled their number of applicants in many cases by not requiring test scores.
[00:04:44] So that's really hard for them to roll back. Hmm. So the vast majority of schools. Seeing that they get more applicants, seeing that they have more flexibility to admit who they want and don't want, they're likely to stay test optional. So that's, that's one big change. The other big change is because of artificial intelligence, so that has really changed how a lot of students are doing their.
[00:05:09] College essays, both for better and for worse, so we could, you know, go down that rabbit hole of ethical and unethical ways to work on your college essays with cha GBT, for instance. Mm-hmm. I should back up. College essays are more highly correlated to wealth than are even SAT and a CT scores, and so tell me more
[00:05:28] Casey O'Roarty: about that.
[00:05:28] David Blobaum: Yes, so the wealthy have always had a enormous benefit. An enormous advantage on the non-academic criteria for admissions. So the latest data showed that really, why do the top 1% of income earners, why do their kids get into the Ivy League colleges at 2.2 times the rate of everybody else? Well, it's from those non-academic factors.
[00:05:55] It's from legacy. It's. Athletic recruitment into Ivy League sports, like squash or crew or fencing.
[00:06:02] Casey O'Roarty: Wait, wait, wait. There's squash is a big, I'm sorry.
[00:06:08] David Blobaum: Yeah. You know it, it is. And
[00:06:09] Casey O'Roarty: yeah, I just think about, yeah, this, this makes sense, right? Because the privilege of time, the privilege of money, the privilege of access.
[00:06:18] You know, the higher your income, the more that exists. Right? And so it makes sense that those are the kids that can stack their applications, right? And say, look at how well-rounded I am, because I didn't have to get a part-time job. I didn't have to be home to take care of siblings while my parents worked, you know, maybe more than one job.
[00:06:37] So that makes sense.
[00:06:39] David Blobaum: Exactly, and you know, I mean probably the best modern source of this is actually Malcolm Gladwell's latest book, which I'm totally blanking on. But he talks about how athletic recruitment is really used by the top schools as a recruitment tool. And there's a lot that we could go into there.
[00:06:57] I mean, really you wanna be a big fish in a small pond, which we can get into later as well. But for those kids who are. Below the 50th percentile at a school, they're actually, it probably going to hurt their self-esteem. Well, at a really prestigious school, there's a lot of amazing students who are going to be below average, 50% of people are gonna be below average.
[00:07:19] So you don't want kids to really have their self-worth, you know, hit. And so how can you. Have the main, how can you have the bottom 50% at a school maintain their sense of self-worth. One way is to admit kids who are basing their self-worth on other things outside the classroom like athletics. Mm-hmm. So that's one reason for athletic recruitment at these top schools.
[00:07:42] Um, so that bottom half has something else to focus on. And to your point, you just mentioned, those people who have. A lot of opportunity can invest a lot in these extracurricular activities like these Ivy League sports. Some of them, you know, they're spending 50,000 to a hundred thousand dollars a year on private coaches for these sports.
[00:08:00] So then also these top schools, they want really wealthy applicants who are gonna donate, who are gonna become donors after they graduate. And so recruiting for these Ivy League sports is another way of ensuring you get really wealthy applicants, which, so all of that is to say there's great inequity. In a lot of things.
[00:08:18] Certainly a lot of inequity in college admissions. Yeah. And so the students who are disadvantaged have been very disadvantaged in college application, essays, chat. GBT is a way where they could even ethically balance the scales a little bit. So you can put in and say, Hey, what would a good essay about why Vanderbilt?
[00:08:40] Um, what would that even look like? Right. So if you can't afford these private college counselors who might cost, you know, a couple thousand dollars, maybe tens of thousands of dollars, and they're really good at what they do generally. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. How can those students who don't have that, those resources, how can they compete?
[00:08:59] Chat, GPT can be a force to bring more equity into the process.
[00:09:05] Casey O'Roarty: Oh, it's so slippery though, isn't it? It's so slippery. It's so slippery.
[00:09:09] David Blobaum: Exactly. Right. And you could get that model essay, then you could put, you could write your own essay and say, Hey. Tell me what I can fix about this and make better. But to your point, it's so dangerous because then you get to the point of saying, write my essay for me.
[00:09:24] Mm-hmm. Right. And so that's a change in college admissions that you have some colleges now like Duke acknowledging the obvious and saying, Hey, we know that we can't look at an essay and know that that was written by the student. Now, honestly, they should have acknowledged that. Beginning 30 years ago.
[00:09:44] Mm-hmm. When the wealthiest kids were getting essays either written for them or polished for them.
[00:09:51] Casey O'Roarty: Oh my gosh. My dad made me rewrite by hand, my college essay. I cannot even tell you how many times I finally was like, listen, it's fine. So my dad was cha GPT for me. Thanks, dad.
[00:10:06] David Blobaum: Right. I mean, you know, even that can be an advantage, but you know, really it's when a lot of.
[00:10:12] A lot of kids can have their essays processed into something that's not even written by them either. By Chad, GBT, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or by a human. So, you know, the overall changes would be going from the vast majority of schools being test required to still, the majority of schools being test optional.
[00:10:30] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:10:31] David Blobaum: What test optional actually means varies a lot though, depending on, you know, d are, are they truly test optional? Which is pretty rare if they're a selective school or are they really test preferred, which is pretty much all the selective schools. Um, but so testing has changed and then as we talked about essays.
[00:10:51] And how, how it relates to chat GPT. But also my favorite thing actually about chat GPT in the college admissions process is the list building that it can help you do that is unbelievably helpful and powerful when we talk about fit and trying to find well what school, what major city, rural, uh, Greek life religious affiliation.
[00:11:14] Um. Big small sports, you do, you wanna be near a beach. You put all of your preferences into Chad, GPT, and you put your grades and your scores and your test score, and you say, Hey, build me a list. It's pro it, it, it's going to build a list, usually on par with really good college counselors.
[00:11:47] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. So let's talk a little bit more about this test optional thing. And I, you know, I don't wanna assume that my listener, like for me, my experience with my son, I remember scrolling Instagram when he was like a junior and something that caught my attention was a company that was like. Hey is, do you have a B or C average student?
[00:12:10] Like they get to go to college, come to our webinar, let's talk about it. And one, I love to watch other people's webinars 'cause I do the same thing. And two, I was like, yes, I do have a, I mean, Ian's GPA was, you know, 3, 2, 3, 4. It wasn't terrible by any means, but just knowing or perceiving that there's this, you know, the whole GPA conversation exists.
[00:12:32] And so. It was so fun to get on that webinar 'cause the guys were like, Hey, guess what? Your kids, they're our favorite kids. 'cause they're not stressed out about this process. They're not freaking out about what's on their application. They're just easy going kids who typically have, you know, other things going on and they're not, you know, high anxiety about school.
[00:12:56] And that really calmed me down. And the other thing that they said is everybody gets to go to college. Like, not everybody gets to go to an Ivy League school, which by the way, my kid, that wasn't where he was setting his sights. And I remember even as a sophomore, we walked the campus of UCLA and he kind of was looking around like, yeah, you know, this is really cool.
[00:13:20] And I said, oh babe. This door's closed for you, like, but there's lots of doors that get to stay open and we get to really work together to pay attention to what classes you're taking and your grades and everything. But it was this really useful moment to say, yeah, this is awesome, but this isn't for you.
[00:13:40] There's tons of other colleges that are so, you know, how should parents and students be thinking about. Because like I said, my kids, Ian was like, nah, I don't need to do the SAT. Ah, it's optional. And you know, I'm not really one to strong arm. So I was like, okay, let's roll with it and see how it goes. How do we have those conversations with our kids?
[00:14:03] And when should we really lean into, no, this is, you know, if you, if this is what you want, it is useful to take these tests and then if they take the test, when is it useful to say, yeah, this is a score that's gonna help you, versus ah, maybe we won't share this one. That was a hundred questions in one, so there you go.
[00:14:23] David Blobaum: No, that was great. I mean, so the first thing I would say is that wall. Well, it seems like a big change that schools are now test optional. In some ways, that's not as big of a change as people think because the vast majority of schools admit the vast majority of applicants. That was true before that.
[00:14:44] That's true now. And so,
[00:14:46] Casey O'Roarty: okay, I'm gonna pause you right there 'cause I want listeners to really hear that. That's kind of like what the guys said on the webinar. The vast majority of schools take the vast majority of applicants. Yeah. Let that land people, okay, go ahead David.
[00:15:01] David Blobaum: Yeah, and so, you know, those schools that were admitting 90% of students to, to be honest, they didn't really care about test scores before.
[00:15:09] And so the fact that you don't need to submit a test score now, it's kind of the same because they didn't really care that much about your test score to begin with. So all those schools are just test optional in the sense that you really don't need to send a, a test score to most schools. And what I would do is, and this is good to, to do for any school that's on your list, is Google the words common data set and then whatever the school is.
[00:15:36] So let's say you Google Common Dataset, Pepperdine. Pepperdine is a, you know, it, it has a pretty good ranking in US News and World Report, which we can get into later as well. US News and World Report rankings are, in my opinion, junk, but mm-hmm. Um, you know, it has a pretty good ranking. Um, so if you, if you go to.
[00:15:56] C seven and C nine are really where you wanna look in a school's common data set. That's gonna help pull back the curtain on what a school is actually doing behind the scenes.
[00:16:06] Casey O'Roarty: And what does that mean? C seven or C nine? What does that, I don't
[00:16:10] David Blobaum: know what that means. So, C seven, it's gonna list out the admissions criteria that they use, and it's gonna list if that admissions criteria is very important, important, somewhat important, or not used at all by the school.
[00:16:22] So it'll list. Class rank, rigor, grades, test scores, interviews, uh, extracurricular activities, et cetera. It, it, it doesn't list all of the criteria because some of the criteria, like do they consider whether you're full pay, that's not listed there. That's very important to basically every school, but you get the idea, it lists out some of the, it, it lists out all the academic and some of the non-academic criteria that you're actually assessed on.
[00:16:49] So that's one way to see, well, how truly test optional is a school, because if they say they're truly test optional, but then in the row of standardized test scores, they list standardized test scores as very important. The same as grades. Well then you're not truly test optional, right? So that's one way of seeing.
[00:17:09] The next is then to just move down to C nine of the common data set, and that's gonna show two other things that are very helpful. First is what percentage of students submitted test scores? So
[00:17:20] Casey O'Roarty: you can find that out. Interesting.
[00:17:23] David Blobaum: Yeah. And so when you, when you look at Pepperdine, they're at, depending on the year, 17%, 19% of enrolled students submitted test scores.
[00:17:31] I would categorize them as truly test optional.
[00:17:34] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:17:34] David Blobaum: Because if 80% or more of the students on campus did not submit test scores, you know that you can get in without test scores. The rule of thumb is if that's at 50% or above. They're actually test preferred. Okay, now 50% might seem like, well, that's just a coin flip.
[00:17:53] They don't really value test scores as much. But what's going on, if we're gonna be really technical about it, is that that's 50% of enrolled student submitted test scores. That's not 50% of admitted student submitted test scores.
[00:18:07] Casey O'Roarty: Okay?
[00:18:08] David Blobaum: So actually when you look at the admitted, which colleges don't, most colleges don't report.
[00:18:14] It's always higher. Okay. For kids that submitted test scores, so Boston College actually publishes their admitted versus enrolled. They're at about 66% of admitted students submitted test scores, 50% enrolled, submitted test scores. So if you're at 50% or above your test preferred.
[00:18:33] Casey O'Roarty: Okay, I'm gonna pause you.
[00:18:35] Yes. So it's all making sense to me. So the common data set. College name gives you like a, like a literally like data. Yes. And so the C seven and C nine is literally like the row of data on the spreadsheet that you end up looking at. Is that correct?
[00:18:53] David Blobaum: Perfect.
[00:18:53] Casey O'Roarty: Okay, good. It took me a minute, but I get it now.
[00:18:56] Okay. So. Whether or not it's used so we can find information around the schools and um, and then families can make choices based on that. And then what about the other piece, which is the, like, I feel like when I took the SATA perfect SAT was maybe like 1400, or maybe it was 1600. It was in 1990, so that was a long time ago.
[00:19:26] What is a perfect SAT score and then what's like, how can parents kind of decide or, and their students, sorry, I hate that I just said, parents, this is not your job. This is your kids' job and you get to be in relationship with them through it. So what is, what is kind of the range of scores that are like, oh, heck yeah, we're gonna send this in, versus.
[00:19:50] Uh, maybe we can kind of skip if it's a a, you know, if it's truly a a, a school that's test optional, you know, when is it a benefit to send in a score? When is it, you know, a benefit to not?
[00:20:04] David Blobaum: Perfect question, and then that is determined by that. The there are are multiple, you know, rows to C nine, uh, multiple rows of data for C nine.
[00:20:14] Those other rows of, of data for C nine show the school's range of test scores for their enrolled students.
[00:20:21] Casey O'Roarty: Oh my God, I had no idea that all of this information was available. Listeners, you're welcome.
[00:20:28] David Blobaum: Yeah. And you know, most people didn't, um, I mean, myself included before 2020, I didn't know that this was Yeah.
[00:20:35] Existed because it was just, you had to get test scores and you had to submit them. So what the ranges were were really irrelevant because you didn't need to make these decisions on, am I going to submit or not? But when you look at C nine, you know, it, it might show that the 25th percentile scores of their enrolled students might be, let's say, a 1300 on the SAT.
[00:20:58] So if you're at that 1300, that 25th percentile or above for that school, you wanna submit,
[00:21:06] Casey O'Roarty: I, I would not be submitting my test score,
[00:21:10] David Blobaum: which, you know, is the case for the vast majority of students to the vast majority of schools, right?
[00:21:14] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:21:15] David Blobaum: Um, but. You know, when our test scores are, uh, when are they gonna start to help you?
[00:21:20] If you're at that 25th percentile or above?
[00:21:23] Casey O'Roarty: Okay.
[00:21:24] David Blobaum: If you're below that, you typically don't want to submit. But I'm just gonna point out the edge cases. One edge case, which is really important, um, which is if you come from a disadvantaged background, colleges, especially the elite colleges, they practice what's called holistic admissions.
[00:21:43] When you listen to admissions podcasts, they're gonna use that word ad nauseum. Mm-hmm. So what holistic admissions means is they're looking at your context. So if you come from a high school where the average SAT score at your high school is an 800 out of the 1600 perfect score, and you are submitting, and let's say you're applying to Harvard and Harvard's, you know, median is probably 1550, still send a 1450.
[00:22:10] Even though it's below the fifth, the 25th percentile, because you are going to be submitting a score that's way higher than your school's average. Mm-hmm. So in context, you're gonna look absolutely amazing. So that would be the only edge case where submit a test score if it's below the 25th percentile, if it will help you stand out given your context.
[00:22:32] Casey O'Roarty: Got it. Oh my gosh. Okay. So. The application process on the college side, they're getting all of, I mean, I can't even wrap my head around what it must be like and the team of people at any given school that are like moving through these applications. What are like, what are the, what's the real criteria? So we're talking a lot about test scores and I don't want listeners, I do not want you to feel all freaked out.
[00:23:01] Like, here's another thing. Because it's just, you know, yes. And everybody gets to go to college and probably the majority of the people that are listening are, don't have kids that have their sights on Harvard. So when you talk, and you said holistic, right? I love that word for variety of context, but what is it like on the other side?
[00:23:22] Is there like a process where an application gets a first pass through? What are. The people on that side who are looking at. So many applications, what are like the little check boxes first go through? And is it like that? Is it like, oh, we're gonna look at the same application more than once? Or how does it even work on that site?
[00:23:45] Do you know? Is that a appropriate question for you?
[00:23:48] David Blobaum: That's a fantastic question.
[00:23:49] Casey O'Roarty: Okay, good.
[00:23:50] David Blobaum: Um, in. To your point, um, it's also the case that, I mean, I'm mentioning much higher scores, but there are schools where the average is an 1150 on the SAT. Well, so then if the 25th percentile might be an 1100, you still wanna submit that in 1100.
[00:24:07] Casey O'Roarty: Okay.
[00:24:07] David Blobaum: Because not only will it help you get in, but it's gonna help you, you know, get a higher scholarship. More merit aid.
[00:24:13] Casey O'Roarty: Yes. Well, and that's key, right? Because I mean, when we did college tours. I was really surprised by the, I mean, my son is at the University of Arizona and they literally were like, if you have a 3.0 you get in.
[00:24:29] And I thought, wait to set the bar, university of Arizona, which is actually also where I went to college, but it was not very stressful for him. So what is that process of, of looking at applications on the college side?
[00:24:44] David Blobaum: Yes. Great question. So there are really three buckets of college admissions criteria.
[00:24:49] So the first one is, and it is really the first question that any college admissions officer has to ask, is, can this student succeed academically here because. If they admit you and they know that you're not gonna succeed academically, that's pretty much malpractice on their part, right? Mm-hmm. Um, now sadly, that actually happens a lot where it's only about two thirds of students graduate within six.
[00:25:14] Actually, now I'm blanking if it's five or six years. Either way you get the idea. There's a third of students who are just not graduating with a college degree. Half of them are not graduating, they're dropping out of school and half of them have debt, college loan debt. So then you're in the worst of both worlds.
[00:25:31] So it should be the case that those college admissions officers are trying to figure out, can you succeed here?
[00:25:37] Mm-hmm.
[00:25:38] Casey O'Roarty: Which I'm gonna pause you. That's so important, listeners. 'cause I have so many clients and I was telling you David, about this, who are, you know, hiring the tutors, hiring the counselors.
[00:25:49] Like dragging their kids through this process. And I try to remind them like, Hey, this is a, the first filter on whether or not your kiddo is ready, right? So hand this over because you can bolster so much support and scaffolding around them. And then they might be a student who, like you said, gets admitted.
[00:26:10] Shows up and doesn't have the skills to meet the academics either, you know, academically, maturity wise, socially. So, yes. Thank you for that.
[00:26:23] David Blobaum: Um, if I forget to bring it up again, please remind me to bring up. Persistence in stem, because that goes directly to your point, and it's something that everyone needs to know, which will also, I think, inform not just trying to get into the best top ranked school, because that might not actually set your kids up for success the most.
[00:26:44] So persistence in stem, um, we're returning to those three buckets of college admissions criteria. And the number one, the, the first question that needs to be asked is, can that student succeed academically? So that's assessed by grades course rigor, meaning did they take honors? Did they take AP classes?
[00:27:02] Class rank if it's there. Fewer and fewer schools though, are even doing class rank what high school you went to. Because you know, if you, if colleges know you came from a really rigorous high school, then those grades look better in context. And then if the school is, um, test optional, they're assessing if the scores are there or not.
[00:27:24] They're gonna use them if the scores are there. But assuming the student, you know, gets basically the check mark on, yes, we feel comfortable that they can succeed academically. Most of the time, the grades and test scores, they're not really, uh, a determining factor. After that.
[00:27:43] Casey O'Roarty: Okay.
[00:27:43] David Blobaum: You know, they might still be brought up even at these elite schools when, when our admissions committees making decisions, but pretty much they faded into the background.
[00:27:54] That's when the other two admissions criteria come to the fore, which is the next one would be, is the student a plus factor? And a plus factor would be, are they someone who's going to get involved, connect other students? Are they going to enhance the experience of, you know, other students on campus? And will they be successful in life?
[00:28:16] Will, you know in. All of these are very, very important to the to the school for reasons. I think it's important to point out that if a student attends a school doesn't get involved at all, they're more likely to transfer. Well, if they transfer, that hurts the college's ranking. And it makes the school look bad because that school wants to publish their retention rate.
[00:28:38] So they don't want to admit people who are not gonna get involved because that student probably won't have a good time and they won't help other people to have a good time. Also, you know, if a student has a good time and helps others to have a good time, they're more likely to have a good experience overall at that school.
[00:28:53] They're more likely to donate later. So being a plus factor on campus is something that's very important to schools. How do schools assess that? That's essays. That's teacher recommendations, that's extracurricular activities, that's interviews. The, the third criteria is unfortunately mostly out of students control, which is institutional priorities.
[00:29:17] So there are just things that certain schools value more or less in applicants. So diversity is a big one because schools want what's rare. Now we might think of racial or ethnic diversity, um, which has mostly been banned by the Supreme Court decisions. But apart from that, there's still a lot of diversity that they're gonna look for.
[00:29:38] So they're gonna look for gender diversity, they're gonna look for geographical diversity. So if you're applying from North Dakota. You have an advantage because there's not as many students applying from North Dakota and they want students from every state generally.
[00:29:52] Casey O'Roarty: Oh, I'm glad. I'm glad for those kids from North Dakota to get a little edge in there.
[00:29:59] David Blobaum: Seriously. Like, you know, it helps.
[00:30:01] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah, I'm
[00:30:01] David Blobaum: sure you know, and again, it could be a religious school. They're probably gonna look for religious affiliation. Right. As we kind of alluded to, full pay, that's an enormous institutional priority for schools. So like it or not, ability to pay is a factor in MO at most colleges, somewhere in their admissions process.
[00:30:27] Even if it's at the end in determining how much merit aid we're gonna give to the student, which they call it merit aid, but a lot of times it's not merit aid. What the statisticians have determined is the amount of money that needs to be offered to that student, given their background to likely entice them to enroll.
[00:30:45] But, um, so also we
[00:30:46] Casey O'Roarty: appreciate merit pay over here.
[00:30:49] David Blobaum: Yeah. I mean, and, and you know, it's interesting the, we talk a lot, you know, the, the headline news is on how much sticker price oncologist has gone up. It's
[00:30:58] Casey O'Roarty: insane
[00:30:59] David Blobaum: actually, but the amount actually paid by families is going down.
[00:31:04] Casey O'Roarty: Really
[00:31:05] David Blobaum: it is. So the, which is driven by a couple different trends.
[00:31:09] One is the rise of, uh, merit scholarships, automatic merit scholarships, you know, which we can go into as well. But the second thing is they're trying to lift the sticker price so those full pay students pay more, but everybody else they're giving discounts to.
[00:31:24] Casey O'Roarty: Hmm.
[00:31:25] David Blobaum: So ability to pay one of those institutional priorities.
[00:31:27] Also legacy athletics and also just trying to. Shape the class so that you don't have too few history majors, for instance. So if the school has been, you know, bleeding history majors and the history professors are upset, yeah, if you're applying and stating history is gonna be your major, you probably have a leg up.
[00:31:48] In that admissions process that year. 'cause that's an institutional priority. So we have, can you succeed academically? Are you a plus factor, uh, for the school? And do you fit their institutional priorities?
[00:32:09] Casey O'Roarty: I am just cracking up at Legacy because I'm sure that my experience at the University of Arizona was not something that anyone was like, oh yeah, we remember her. She was such good student. No, I was not. So, do you work with families or is your work more kind of broader scale? Are you working with parents and students?
[00:32:32] David Blobaum: I mean, I represent the, the national test prep as the director of outreach. Um, in my day job I work with students personally, tutoring them. Mm-hmm. Also on the college admissions side, and then also just running my company as well.
[00:32:46] Casey O'Roarty: So what are some of the common myths that are putting families into a panic that you support them in?
[00:32:55] Letting go of when it comes to this process of college application.
[00:33:00] David Blobaum: So I like to bring it back to first principles of why are we doing this? And so, so often, I mean, not so often, most of the time the focus is on getting into college, which would seem like, of course, that's what our focus should be on.
[00:33:21] Right? No. It shouldn't be. The focus should be on which school will you succeed at and which, and will set you up for success later in life. The goal is not to get into college. The goal is to get out and succeed. And so I think if you put those first principles first, you start to make different choices about what you're valuing.
[00:33:44] Now, you know, I, I can make the case for. The most prestigious school possible, but more important than that for the vast majority of students is first of all, just what major are you going into? Because even if you look at a school's, the salaries of the graduates of the school, well, if that school is a STEM school versus that school is a liberal arts school, you're gonna have very different.
[00:34:11] Outcomes. But that's because the majors of going into stem, lead to STEM jobs, which pay a lot more. So, you know, what major do you want to go into? What are you really chasing? Those can really impact what you should be chasing in terms of which school. And the other thing that I would, actually, this is a good time to, to talk about that STEM persistence.
[00:34:34] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:34:35] David Blobaum: So
[00:34:36] Casey O'Roarty: I have one STEM kid and I have one business kid. So I'm interested in hearing what if, if that's what you mean when you talk about, when you said stem, the science, tech, engineering, and math. Right,
[00:34:46] David Blobaum: exactly. Perfect.
[00:34:47] Casey O'Roarty: Okay.
[00:34:47] David Blobaum: Nailed it. Yeah, so you know, especially, it's especially true at these very competitive schools that I would recommend students not try to just squeak in the door.
[00:35:01] Because if you just squeak in in, in the door, you will almost definitely not graduate as a STEM major, if that's your intent. So the most robust data set for this comes back to, uh, the University of California back when they were test required. So it's 11 years old, but it's still really relevant. Um, the data show that if you're in the bottom 25th percentile of test scores for that school, you will almost.
[00:35:30] Definitely not graduate as a STEM major. If you start as a STEM major now, you'll still likely graduate, but you'll transfer, you'll, you'll switch to an easier major. So to put the numbers on that, 90% of students who started in STEM at uc, Berkeley. But we're in the bottom 25th percentile of scores. They didn't graduate as STEM majors.
[00:35:51] If they had just gone to those same students. If they had gone to uc, San Diego, still a really good school, they 2.5 x, their chances of graduating as a STEM major, which is still only 25% of them, but that's still a 2.5 times higher. So if you're just trying to get into the top rank school or that's, or school, that school might actually be too hard for you, depending on the major.
[00:36:15] You probably want to be a big fish in a small pond, so you probably want to be performing in the top half of students at that school. So don't necessarily chase the most prestigious school if you, you might not have the academic preparedness to really succeed there.
[00:36:37] Casey O'Roarty: Okay. So, and it's interesting 'cause I do have clients that are like so hung up on the ranking of the school, or, or, or, you know, they've convinced themselves that this is what their kids want, this is what's best for their kids.
[00:36:53] And what I'm hearing you say is, and I loved this. Prioritizing graduating and moving on versus getting in. And I, I think that that's so, so useful for the parents that are in this process right now. And, you know, let's kind of stick with this theme because, you know, I talk about parenting here on the Joyful Courage Podcast.
[00:37:17] And it's so interesting too because. You know that summer and fall of our kids' senior year, I really like to let parent, I like to say things like, parent a year ahead, your kid's gonna be out in the world with all of this freedom. So let them kind of stretch into this right now so that they have practice before they're actually out there.
[00:37:41] And then there's this huge process called college application season. Where everything gets so small and parents can get so controlling and what actually is in the parents' control in reality in this process and what do you coach parents around or, or, or support parents around letting go of for their kids' benefit.
[00:38:07] David Blobaum: So I defer to you
[00:38:10] Casey O'Roarty: good
[00:38:10] David Blobaum: on that. Great. I mean, because. In, in my role, quite frankly, the parents, the, the family tells me what they want and I try and support them in whatever they tell me that they want. Okay. And so, you know, there are those really intense parents and hey, I'm going to try to meet their expectations in, in the way that I can.
[00:38:35] Um, now
[00:38:37] Casey O'Roarty: that's what they're hiring you for, so that makes sense.
[00:38:39] David Blobaum: Correct. Now is, is that good or bad? I would turn that over to you.
[00:38:44] Casey O'Roarty: Well, have you ever had experiences where you've had to be like, Hey, actually this might not be serving your kid? Or do you just kind of stay out of that and just stay focused on the, the application process?
[00:38:57] David Blobaum: I mean, it, it's, it, it is quite rare, which also might just be. My personal philosophy, um, but only in the most extreme situations. Yeah. Where, you know, I mean, I we're talking like, you know, a kid has been in a mental hospital. Yeah. And they get out, you know, and truly the, you know, the parent says, and this is, you know, a month after the kids gets out of a mental hospital and the family's saying, Hey, you know, my daughter has 30 minutes of free time a night, she can do more homework.
[00:39:28] Casey O'Roarty: Hmm.
[00:39:28] David Blobaum: And so only in the most extreme situations am I saying I? Yeah, that's great. I'm never going to assign her homework then if she only has 30 minutes of free time. Right?
[00:39:37] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 'cause
[00:39:39] David Blobaum: did we not learn from what just happened? Right? Yeah. Um, so of course people's health is far more important than any of this.
[00:39:47] Yeah. So only if it were to, if I think that it's really gonna impact their health or wellbeing, would I. You know, say, yeah, I'm not gonna do that.
[00:39:54] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. Well, and I think you've given, you've given us so much just in this conversation, I think parents, you know, hopefully really been tuned in around, you know, the, the, what my biggest takeaway here is that piece that you just said around, is the goal getting them into college or is the goal getting them.
[00:40:17] Graduating them from college and, and launching them, or truly launching them. I mean, we talk about launching as if moving from high school to college is this big thing. Which it is. It is. And they're on their own, but they're, you know, you typically still on the dole and they've got a lot, you know, of scaffolding and support.
[00:40:35] So I really appreciate that kind of shift in the lens of what we're really after here. I. If you could give parents one piece of advice to help them feel more grounded as they support their teen through this process, what would it be?
[00:40:53] David Blobaum: Well, I, I think it would piggyback off of what you're saying, which is.
[00:40:56] It's not even just all about the academics. There's more to college. There's, I mean, even if you wanna be super successful, like even if that's what you're chasing, prestige is still not necessarily what you should be chasing. Because I, I put off reading this business book for a long time called. Um, how To Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie.
[00:41:18] Mm-hmm. I dunno if you've read it. I hate the title. It's horrible. It's so manipulative, so slimy. Like it's so sle. Yeah, so I put off reading it even though it's on, you know, every top 10 list of business books. I'm so glad I read it though. I think it should be required reading for all people because the book, how to Win Friends and Influence People is really how to be a good person.
[00:41:38] But that is. How you, and, and it says on, on, on the title of the book, the only book you Need for Success. Now, that's a crazy claim to make, but after you read the book, you're like, wait, that actually might be true. Mm. Right. And so what's the moral of the story there? It's not about academics, it's about being able to connect with people that's far more important than what you learn.
[00:42:03] Mm-hmm. For most people, um, most of the time. You know, you might be able to gain technical skills. Technical skills are not everything. Those soft skills can be just as important. But in addition to those soft skills, what does the school offer in terms of internships? What is their, I mean, so for instance, Penn State.
[00:42:21] Penn State is not known as a super prestigious school, but they have a larger alumni network than any other college in the country. So if you go to Penn State, you are now getting access to the largest alumni. The network in the country. That's actually huge. So I would reinforce what you said. Um, it's really not just about prestige, it's about focusing on the person, what will help set them up for success, which is not just prestige and not just academics.
[00:42:50] Casey O'Roarty: Well, as we wrap things up, is there anything else that you wanna make sure that you say that you wanna share with listeners?
[00:42:58] David Blobaum: I would, I mean I'm, I'm from the National Test Prep Association, so I would just say the test prep industry is really the wild West. There are no certifications. You're not going to really get real data on what are the score increases of the students who go to a certain test prep program.
[00:43:17] That's why we created the National Test Prep Association. We're a group of test prep companies that have bound themselves to ethical standards, which is very rare in the test prep industry. So while you have people making these claims of tips and tricks and score guarantees, most of those. Are very good at getting people in the door.
[00:43:37] But again, it's not about getting in the door, just like it's not about getting into college. It's about what are the outcomes there. So, you know, people can head to national test prep.org, look at our directory, find vetted ethical tutors in their area. You're more likely to get a really high quality teacher, and it's when you get really high quality teachers that you get those better results.
[00:43:59] Casey O'Roarty: Okay, great, and I'll make sure that that link is in the show notes. And now I'm gonna put you on the spot. This is the question that I ask all of my guests. So in the context of the work that you do, what does joyful Courage mean to you?
[00:44:18] David Blobaum: Joyful courage means to me telling the truth to families. So. When a family calls in and says, Hey, we have a 900 on the SAT, um, you know, I wanna get test prep for my kid to get a 1500 on the SAT.
[00:44:37] It's having the courage to say, that's probably not going to happen. And you would be surprised that most test prep companies will not tell you the truth. Mm. They will just take your money. And you won't get the results and you'll be disappointed. And that's, you know, that's the last you'll hear from them.
[00:44:57] Um, so joyful courage is having the courage to tell people the truth, even when they don't want to hear that truth. And it might mean that they walk away from us, um, for, for test prep, but I feel good about the fact that. We've, we've told the truth. We've done what's right.
[00:45:14] Casey O'Roarty: Hmm. I love that. Thank you. Thank you for hanging out with me today, David.
[00:45:18] Thanks for all this information. And listeners, all the links will be in the show notes, including, I'm gonna make sure that I emphasize data set. What was that thing that you said earlier? What was it called? The common data set, or the
[00:45:35] David Blobaum: Exactly, yes.
[00:45:36] Casey O'Roarty: Was it common?
[00:45:37] David Blobaum: Yes. Perfect. Yeah,
[00:45:38] Casey O'Roarty: look at me. Okay. I'll make sure that that's in the show notes.
[00:45:41] Thank you so much for being here with us and sharing your wisdom.
[00:45:44] David Blobaum: Thank you, Casey. It's my pleasure.
[00:45:50] Casey O'Roarty: Thank you so much for listening. Thank you to my Sprout partners. Julietta and Alana, thank you Danielle, for supporting with the show notes as well as Chris Mann and the team at Pod Shaper for all the support with getting the show out there and making it sound good. As I mentioned, sharing is caring. If you're willing to pass on this episode to others or take a few minutes to rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, it helps other parents find this useful content.
[00:46:18] Be sure to check out what we have going on for parents of kids. Of all ages and sign up for our newsletter to stay [email protected]. I see you doing all the things. I believe in you. See you next time.