Eps 630: Help for the self destructive teen with Katie May

“Joyful courage means showing up and doing hard things, but knowing that that’s the middle of the story. And I always tell myself that when it’s hard, it’s the middle of the story, and when I get to the end, I’ll have something to share.” – Katie May

 

Resources:

Books:

• “You’re On Fire, It’s Fine” by Katie May
• “Joyful Courage: Calming the Drama and Taking Control of YOUR Parenting Journey” by Casey O’Roarty

Organizations/Centers:

• Creative Healing Teen Support Centers (Katie May’s DBT center)
• Middle Path Counseling (Bellingham, WA – adolescent DBT program)

Therapy Approaches:

• DBT (Dialectical Behavior Therapy)
• Positive Discipline
• Adlerian theory

Specific DBT Skills Mentioned:

• TIP skill (Temperature, Intense exercise, Progressive muscle relaxation, Paced breathing)
• ACCEPTS (distraction skills including Contributing/Connection)
• Collecting positives
• Radical acceptance

Experts/Concepts Referenced:

• Dan Siegel (brain in the palm of the hand)
• “Good enough parent” concept
• Biosocial theory

Where to Find Katie May:

• https://creativehealingphilly.com/katiekmay
• Website: youareonfire itsfine.com (book, free resources, courses available)
• Book also available anywhere books are sold online

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Transcription

JC Ep 630 (12.1.25) - Final

[00:00:00] Casey O'Roarty: Welcome, welcome, welcome to the Joyful Courage Podcast. This is a place where parents of tweens and teens come to find inspiration, information, and encouragement. In the messy terrain of adolescents, this season of parenting is no joke. And while the details of what we're all moving through might be slightly different, we are indeed having a very collective experience.

[00:00:30] This is a space where we center building, relationship, nurturing life skills, and leaning into our own personal growth and man. The opportunities abound, right. My name is Casey Ody. I am a parent coach, positive discipline lead trainer, and captain of the adolescent ship over at Sprout Bowl. I'm also a speaker and a published author.

[00:00:53] I've been working with parents and families for over 20 years. And continue to navigate my own experience of being a mom with my two young adult kids. I'm so honored that you're here and listening. Please give back to the podcast by sharing it with friends or on social media rate and review us on Apple or Spotify.

[00:01:13] Word of mouth is how we grow. Thank you so, so much. Enjoy the show.

[00:01:24] All right. Hey listeners. Welcome back to the show. Today we're gonna be talking about one of the hardest experiences that a parent can face, which is watching our teens struggle with overwhelming emotions and self-destructive behaviors and not knowing how to help without. Making things worse. I know this experience intimately, and I know many of you are in this or have been in it, or perhaps you have a friend or family member working to support a teen who's having a hard time.

[00:01:52] So my goal in this conversation is for you listeners to feel seen and for you to feel empowered and encouraged at the end of this conversation. You all have heard me say this again and again and again how you show up matters and my guest is gonna help us with that. So I'm really excited to welcome Katie k May onto the show.

[00:02:15] Katie is a licensed therapist and the founder of Creative Healing Teen Support Centers as a national speaker and trainer. She empowers parents and professionals. To radically shift teen emotions and behaviors through proven and practical coping skills. Katie is a board certified self-harm specialist and an expert in DBT the gold standard treatment.

[00:02:38] You guys have heard me talk about DBTA lot. For life-threatening behaviors, Katie is committed to helping teens feel accepted for who they are while teaching them skills to build a life that they love. Hi Katie. Welcome to the show. 

[00:02:51] Katie May: Hi. I am so excited to hear already that you've been talking about DBT, so I'm psyched to be here.

[00:02:56] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah, well, I actually, my kids are, well my, today's my son's birthday recording on my son's birthday. He's 20 and my daughter will be 23 in January and she and I actually did. The DBT adolescent program as it's written a few years ago, and it was the work that really worked to shift the trajectory of where things were going.

[00:03:21] So yeah, I am a big lover of DBT. She's been on the podcast and talked about it. I've talked about it with my therapist on the podcast. Who's a DBT therapist? So when I saw that in your bio when you reached out, I was like, oh, sweet. Yes, yes, yes, yes. So good. That's incredible. Glad to hear it. How have you found yourself doing the work that you do with these teens and their families?

[00:03:43] Katie May: Yeah, so I actually went to school to be a journalist, not at all, a therapist. And then when I found myself with a surprise pregnancy at 26, I was reevaluating my life choices. I had been a troubled teenager, struggled a lot, raised by a single father, and so the decision that I made was, I'm going to go back to school to be a therapist.

[00:04:07] At that time, I thought it would be way too hard to work with kids or to work with teens because I have a lot of empathy, and again, I had my own struggle, so I just thought I might relate too much to the experience. But what I found through the job that I landed in was that I connected. So well with teenagers and my lived experience, along with my professional experience really allowed me to connect with them and not just build rapport, but help them move towards change and move towards a life that really made sense for them and worked for them.

[00:04:36] So I wanna say it was like a happy accident that got me here, but it truly is my passion and my life's purpose, and I'm grateful that I landed where I did. 

[00:04:46] Casey O'Roarty: Hmm. I am grateful for that too. When you think about your practice and mm-hmm. The people that you serve, what is bringing parents to your door? Paint a picture of what's happening for the teens in their life and Yeah.

[00:05:00] And what, just kind of what daily life is looking like for those families when they come to you. 

[00:05:04] Katie May: Absolutely. Our center is a DBT Center as we've already been talking about it, and so we really specialize in these high risk teens. I like to say that we are the place that keeps your teen out of the hospital or where your teen comes, once they've been in the hospital, and they need a place to come next.

[00:05:24] So we're really comfortable with very risky behaviors, self-destructive behaviors, which might be su self-harm, suicidal ideation, eating disorders. Sometimes aggression or self-destruction, or in other ways. So when parents land at our center, they are typically feeling pretty hopeless. They've been to six to 10 other therapists.

[00:05:45] They may have been in a revolving door of hospitalizations. They're in a very vulnerable place and hoping that this is finally the place where they can see change. 

[00:05:55] Casey O'Roarty: That's really encouraging. I know in our experience. You know, sometimes if you get on like Psychology Today and you're looking for a therapist, and it's almost as if when people put themselves on there, they get to check a bunch of boxes and they might check DBT and they might check adolescents.

[00:06:11] But in my lived experience with my own kiddo, it was like, clearly you don't have the skills to pay the bills when it comes to. Working with teenagers because my daughter presented really well in the short term. Mm-hmm. Right? And so at one point I remember her, she was working with somebody and she came home and she said, my therapist said I can go to every other week now.

[00:06:31] And I looked through and I was like, really? And I thought about this and the, you know, all these different things that were continuing to go on. And I just thought to myself. Who in their right mind would feel like this is time for less therapy. And so went in, talked to the gal and she was like, oh, but she presents so well.

[00:06:51] And I'm like, is this the first teenager you've worked with? So just really grateful for your service and really wish there was more of what you were doing around the country for families. 'cause it feels like it's really few and far between that there are organizations that are really landing the work that teens need to do.

[00:07:11] Yeah, you're 

[00:07:11] Katie May: highlighting so much of what has become my soapbox one, I wish we could be in more places, that's why I wrote a book. Mm-hmm. So that more people could get more help. But really this idea that teenagers can present the way they present in therapy, which of course is this safe environment where they're able to.

[00:07:29] Unload, which looks very different than the stressors of everyday life. And so understanding that teenagers have mood dependent behavior, but also including parents in the treatment process more than most teen therapists do, I think is a really important 

[00:07:43] Casey O'Roarty: point. Yeah, yeah, definitely. Can you, just, before we go on, 'cause I feel like DBT is gonna come up, can you give the broad stroke kind of like what, how DBT is different from kind of the typical.

[00:07:58] Therapy that all of us might immediately think about when we think about therapy. 

[00:08:03] Katie May: Yes, DBT stands for dialectical Behavior Therapy. If we break down the words in that, dialectical means two different things and finding the balance between them. And so in DBT, that's finding the balance between acceptance and change.

[00:08:18] It's not just being the safe. Space, but also the place that structures you towards your goals and tracks your behaviors and week to week looks at what your urges are, what your emotions are. There's a lot of structure in that process. The B in DBT is for behavior, and that part is important too and looks a lot different.

[00:08:39] In DBT than a talk therapy, because there's a lot of practice of new behaviors. There's this premise that sometimes we're doing the best we can, most, if not all the time. We're doing the best we can, but we don't have the right skills to do better. So learning and practicing new skills in all different settings will help us be more effective when those emotions show up or when something feels really challenging for us.

[00:09:02] So really that's the very short version that mm-hmm. We're looking at data. We're balancing acceptance and change, and we're practicing new behaviors in all required settings so that we can be more skillful and effective in our 

[00:09:15] Casey O'Roarty: lives. Yeah, I loved that about DBT. Like the amount of practical skills was so useful.

[00:09:23] And I mean, I had already been a parent coach for quite a long time before I. Yeah, did the DBT program with my daughter, which for me meant going to the skills class once a week with other caregivers in their teens. Mm-hmm. And I just learned so much more being a part of that. I was so grateful. Okay. And you already kind of teed this up, mood dependent behavior.

[00:09:44] So what is mood dependent behavior? And, I mean, I had this kid right when their entire life revolves around escaping uncomfortable emotions. Help the listeners understand. What their teen is actually experiencing in these moments. 

[00:10:01] Katie May: The easiest way I can start to describe mood dependent behavior is to describe the opposite, which is goal dependent behavior, which means that I woke up today and I was feeling very tired, but because I had a goal to get outta bed and answer my emails and communicate with my team, I did those things even though I didn't want to.

[00:10:21] And so that's when you're directed by your goals. It doesn't matter what your motivation level is, it doesn't matter what your emotions are, you. Follow the plan. Now, we all have days where that doesn't happen, but for teenagers who don't have fully formed frontal lobes who may be experiencing mental health problems, it is much more difficult to be co-directed.

[00:10:41] And in fact, more times than not there. Mood dependent. So their behavior is dependent on their mood. If they're sad, they might lay in bed in the dark or scroll on their phone. If they're anxious, they might avoid a situation. So any urge that is attached to their emotion is typically what they're acting on, and this is so frustrating for parents.

[00:11:03] Because they say, why can't you just get out of bed? Why can't you just do your homework? Even though it's harder, it's frustrating. And the reason is because they're overtaken with their own emotions and it's difficult to do the opposite of the urge that comes with that emotion. 

[00:11:19] Casey O'Roarty: It's so interesting, I think that we create so many stories about these kids.

[00:11:23] I know for me it took a minute to realize, 'cause my, we were definitely inside of that with anxiety and. What looked from the outside looking in like, oh my gosh, there's no grit, there's no resilience made me. I actually was able to shift into recognizing, oh, actually my kid is in hardcore survival mode, and survival mode takes an incredible amount of resilience.

[00:11:52] It was a reframe on resilience and it was a reframe on what. She was doing instead of like, mm-hmm. Oh my God. The laundry list of things that she wasn't doing. And you know what, I think it's hard for parents to see that, to see those little micro areas, but, you know, and, and they feel like they're walking on eggshells and they don't know what's gonna set their kid off and like, you know, and, and understanding, okay, so I'm sure there's listeners like, oh yeah, that's my kid.

[00:12:22] The mood dependent kid. What are the stepping stones? How do we like it feels impossible. Those two things, and maybe this is a dialectic, right? Mood dependent versus goal dependent. But it feels like such a big gap between getting from that mood dependent into the goal dependent. 

[00:12:44] Katie May: Yeah. So one of the things you said would be my launchpad for how to help parents respond to this because you said something about some kind of judgment.

[00:12:53] I forget what it was exactly, but like she's not trying hard enough. Right. Or something. Resilience I've had, wheres her grit? There's no grit. There's no resilience. Right. Those are the parent judgments that come up. And so before we can even look at how do I change my teenager's behavior? As a parent, you need to be mindful of those kinds of judgments.

[00:13:13] And I'm the parent of a teenager. We all have those judgments. I'm not saying clear your mind, never have a judgment again, but notice when your emotions are increasing, you are getting activated and a judgment shows up. Why can't you go to school? Where's your grit? Why can't you just do this thing? That, that's kind of the soundbite that I hear a lot.

[00:13:34] That is a judgment. So the antidote to judgment is observe and describe. And what that looks like for a parent is, I'm noticing myself getting frustrated right now. I'm going to step away so that I can calm myself down. So it is noticing your emotional experience, naming it out loud, if that makes sense in the situation.

[00:13:56] And then modeling that you can regulate your emotion because at the core, whatever that behavior is that your teen is experiencing is a difficulty in emotion regulation. So if you can't do it, you can't make them do it. 

[00:14:09] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah, and I feel like, I mean, I feel like all of our challenges with teens are. That's come back to, or humans to regulation.

[00:14:17] Yeah. Yeah. And I, and I really appreciate that. 'cause it just falls right into what I'm talking about all the time on this show, which is one thing that we can control is how. Mm-hmm. And if we're willing to grow in our self-awareness and then to do something with what we discover when we become ever more self-aware.

[00:14:37] So I'm really appreciating hearing you talk about this as the first step.

[00:14:51] Okay, so I haven't mentioned your book yet, but I have it right here. And first of all, I love the cover. It's a, it's a lit match and the title, you guys, this is so good. The title of Katie's book is, you're on Fire. It's fine.

[00:15:09] Because it feels like that, you know, that's the other thing I think that can fuel that judgment. Yeah. Is that the sense of urgency? Mm-hmm. That shows up like, oh my God, if they're, if they don't get it together now, then. They're never gonna get it together. If they don't figure this out and grow in their grit or grow in their resilience, then, and we pi and we pitch ourselves.

[00:15:33] We pitch our kids 10 years into the future where they're the same. Yeah. And they haven't learned any skills. And so something about this title mm-hmm. To me, is an invitation. Like Yeah, shit's hitting the fan and. Let's just slow down. Let's pause. Let, we can figure this out. So I really, tell me about how you came up with this title.

[00:15:56] Katie May: The title came from this idea that when you are a teenager or a biologically sensitive individual, someone who feels their emotions deeply, it often feels like you're on fire with those emotions. So I don't know if you remember, it came up sometime in the pandemic. There was like the I'm fine dog. It was a meme and it was this dog and a holding a coffee cup inside a burning house and just.

[00:16:18] Saying I'm fine. So that was a lot of the inspiration. Mm-hmm. Was like that visual was in my mind. But this idea that you feel like you're on fire with your emotions, and if you feel like you're on fire with your emotions, it makes sense that your brain thinks, I can't handle this. I'm gonna start to think about hurting myself or start to think about suicide, because that's an escape.

[00:16:38] Or your brain thinks you shouldn't have these feelings. They're too big, you can't cope. So you start to think about having a drink, drugs and alcohol. Mm-hmm. Binging, scrolling on your phone. So the idea that when you have these big, fiery emotions, the behaviors that try and. Extinguish those flames make sense and the I'm It's fine piece came from parents invalidating those big emotions and coming from a good place.

[00:17:05] So it's not these big evil parents, but parents saying, you must be tired. Go take a nap. Oh yeah. Or get a snack. You might be hungry, right? These very simple solutions, but if you feel like you're on fire with your emotions, that feels like a squirt gun. It is not doing the job, and so it feels invalidating and often makes things worse.

[00:17:23] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. And my daughter, which her feedback to me was, I feel completely dismissed when you tell me to go out, just go outside, go just do some yoga. I feel like completely my experience doesn't matter. And that was a huge wake up call for me. 'cause I, you know, of we, we, we, we think we're being helpful. We think we're being helpful.

[00:17:44] Right, right. Or I remember my mom even saying like. Well, doesn't she know that all teenagers feel like this? And e you know, even in the early days I was like, that's not gonna be a useful right thing to say to my girl. Yes. Oh my gosh. Okay. I love that. And, and we are, you know, just to make it clear again, we are talking about kids with self-destructive behaviors.

[00:18:07] Can we talk a little bit about. Self-harm in particular, because I think that, I mean, self-harm is a solution to a problem that we don't know about or understand, correct. Right. And self-harm is not the same as suicidal ideation, right? Yes. Is that an accurate statement? 

[00:18:27] Katie May: It is 100% accurate. So they sometimes serve the same function.

[00:18:33] And so exactly what you said is how I talk about it in the book is how I talk about it with clients all the time, is that it is the solution to a problem. As parents, we look at our teenager hurting themselves or. Wanting to not be around anymore. And to us, that's a problem. Mm-hmm. But to, to the teen who's hurting or whose emotions are too big to cope with, it is the solution that their brain has come up with.

[00:18:55] And so there are two different behaviors. There is some overlap in that individuals who self-harm are more likely. To try other methods when self-harm is no longer effective because just like drugs or alcohol, we build a tolerance and we try something else. And it may even be accidental, but for the sake of parents or individuals understanding, they're not the same thing.

[00:19:20] If I self-harm, it's not the same thing as wanting to kill myself. 

[00:19:24] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm. For parents who have kids that I, and I feel like. When I think about self harm, I think our brains immediately go to cutting. Mm-hmm. But I also realize that there's lots of different variations of self harm. Um, but for the parent who has come aware that their child is cutting mm-hmm.

[00:19:45] What are the you and your book really, and I love this 'cause I think that it's so important in so many domains of conversations that we need to have with our kids. You say really directly, like if you're worried about your kids hurting themselves, like, you know, as in the big hurt, you know, suicide, be direct.

[00:20:06] In the questioning. Can you talk a little bit about that? 

[00:20:09] Katie May: Yeah. This is something I teach parents all the time, and I think it catches them off guard, but the, the premise behind it is that if you're worried that your kid is going to hurt themselves, you need to feel comfortable saying the words. For them to feel comfortable telling you.

[00:20:23] If you think about how big and scary and it is for most people, if they're having these kinds of urges, it's not a casual thing for them. They feel scared of it too. And so to be scared of this urge or to have this urge and then to have to put words to it to another person who we know is gonna react, and that's, you know, as a teen therapist, that's something I see as a deterrent to communication a lot.

[00:20:47] My mom's gonna be so upset. When I tell her this. Mm. So we as parents have this very big and very tough responsibility to be regulated and supportive and validating when our teens are having these experiences. So if I had concern for my child wanting to hurt themselves. In some kind of way I would use whatever words I was concerned about.

[00:21:10] I'm concerned you might be cutting. I'm here for you. Can we talk about this? I'm concerned that you're having suicidal thoughts. I'm here for you. Can we talk about this? And I would also use the language of, I know that if this is something that. Your brain has come up with that, you must be hurting a lot inside.

[00:21:29] And I'm here to listen because there's a lot of shame that comes with this behavior and there's a lot of fear about parents' feelings about these behaviors. 

[00:21:39] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. What do you think about the statement? Life shouldn't feel this hard like, 'cause I have clients who have kids that are therapy resistant and, and resistant to getting on any kind of help.

[00:21:48] And one of the things. Hmm. This is, hi everyone. I'm just making sure that I'm doing good coaching here with the therapist. Um, but one of the things that I will encourage them to kind of pull the curtain back with their kiddo and just say it, it shouldn't, it doesn't have to feel this hard. Um, and there are people that are trained to, to help you be with.

[00:22:09] What's feeling really hard? What do you think about that? 

[00:22:12] Katie May: I have a dialectical response to that. Great. Let's hear it. I have two sides, so on one hand I think that can be really helpful. I remember having a conversation with one of my employees maybe eight years ago, and she was struggling and she came to me one day and said, you know what?

[00:22:25] I started on an antidepressant because I just realized that life doesn't have to be this hard, and it's been so much better since then. And so I think for her it was a really helpful frame of understanding. I'm white knuckling. And I'm struggling and I don't have to be because my doctor has come up with a solution that is helpful for me.

[00:22:44] Okay. So from that lens, I do think it can be really helpful for individuals. And then on the other side of it, I have a chronically depressed teenager. Mm-hmm. And I have been a chronically depressed person for a lot of my life. And so for some of my clients and or myself or family members. The message is a little different.

[00:23:03] It's that life can be really hard and how do we live with that and how do we find the moments of joy or the space within that? Because I think for some people life is going to be hard. Yeah. And for those people, we need to teach them how to live with the hard rather than think that it shouldn't be there.

[00:23:19] And that's radical acceptance. 

[00:23:20] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. Oh, I so appreciate that, Katie. That's gonna be really helpful to me and to the people that I serve too, because. You know, it's funny, even as I said it to you, I was like, oh, I have a feeling I'm gonna get a little bit of schooling here. Which is perfect. Which is perfect.

[00:23:38] And I think it really matters because like you said, there is wiring and I wanna get into the biology versus environment both and conversation as well. But because we do, there are people out in the world like you and you know, like my daughter, who there is some biological. Wiring that is happening. Yeah.

[00:23:59] I don't know if wiring's the right word or not, but you know, that it, it is a lens, it is a, a way of being in the world. And so I really appreciate how can we live with joy? How can we create and generate a, an experience that isn't totally brought down by, by our mental health and our wiring? So talk a little bit about biology and environment and how they both play a role and what.

[00:24:23] You know, when a parent realizes that their response might be a part like, Hmm, hi, me, part of that invalidating environment, you know, how can we, how can we be with the both and of biology and environment? 

[00:24:36] Katie May: Yeah, so there's this theory called the Biosocial theory, and what this looks like is that there's biology and there's environment, just like you said.

[00:24:44] Nature and nurture is, I think, how we've talked about it a lot. And for some folks, I, I explain it to parents this way, some of your kids are good at soccer, some of your kids are good at art and some of your kids are good at emotions. And so if your, your kid that's good at emotions, they have a natural predisposition to feel their emotions deeply.

[00:25:02] Typically, they. Feel things in very big and deep ways. They're set off more quickly than other individuals. So that's your zero to 60 and 10 seconds flat kind of kid, and it takes them a lot longer to calm down. And this is important because not only. Are they set off quickly and feel things in really big ways.

[00:25:22] If it's taking them a long time to calm down, they might be set off again before they ever get back to their baseline, so they're in this chronic state of dysregulation or this chronic state of emotions being activated and swirling around in their body all the time. So that's just how they were born.

[00:25:38] That's their biology. When we bring the environment into this. This is what starts to shake things up. So if you have an environment that's constantly saying, you're fine, this is no big deal, right? People that feel their emotions in big ways, others might look at them and say, why are you reacting so strongly to that?

[00:25:55] Like, it's no big deal. So they start to get the, the message that their emotions are wrong. They're too much, they're too big. And when this happens over and over and over again, over time, that's when you see self-destructive behaviors start to show up. And the reason for that. Is because they start to doubt themselves.

[00:26:13] They start to think, well, are my emotions too much? Is my meter faulty? Am I, do I not have the right emotion? So when it shows up in those really big ways, their brain goes, Nope, that's wrong. Make it go away. And they act on whatever urge makes that emotion go away. 

[00:26:28] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.

[00:26:32] I just, I have such a tender heart for all of these kids that are struggling and have found themselves for whatever reason in an environment that is adding fuel to that fire. Right? Like you're on fire, it's fine. And how, you know, that can really. Generate, and that's something that I've talked about a lot on the podcast when I, my sweet friend Cam, I talk about him and his question of just in a nutshell, Casey, the parenting teenager's in a nutshell.

[00:27:01] And I was like, well, in a nutshell, don't make it worse. Like, there you go. Great nutshell. And I really feel like that's, that's what you're talking about. There's, you know, so much well-intentioned, right? Can be not. Useful. And so, you know, let's talk a little bit about validation as mm-hmm. A tool and as something for parents to really try on and consider, you call it the water that prevents emotional wildfires from spreading.

[00:27:28] What does genuine validation sound like and why? Do you think it's tricky? Or do you find that it's tricky for, for parents to. Embrace the tool of validation. 

[00:27:41] Katie May: Validation at its core is telling someone that you understand why they feel the way that they do, and I think there are some misconceptions that make it difficult for parents.

[00:27:52] I've seen parents try think that praise is validation and that's completely different. Also valuable. Still praise your kids sometimes. Yeah. But yeah, when, when it has its place. But the other thing that I see even more than that is, well, if I validate this feeling, am I telling them that their behavior is okay?

[00:28:10] Mm-hmm. If I validate that I understand why they harmed themself, am I telling them, go harm yourself? 'cause it makes you feel better? But that's actually not the case because when we validate what we're saying is, I see that you're hurting right now. I can understand why you were trying to come up with a way to make that hurting stop.

[00:28:27] And I care about you and I don't want you to hurt yourself. So let's work together to figure out how to make this better. Or even I can understand why you wanna stay out until 2:00 AM with all of your friends and you have a junior license. So I need you to come home legally at the time that you're required to.

[00:28:43] So it doesn't mean that you're changing the limits or the expectations, you're just understanding why the person feels the way that they do. 

[00:28:50] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah, I appreciate the language around it. Makes sense. Yeah. And not like it makes sense like, yay, for destructive behaviors, they make sense, but it makes sense that a kid that's hurting mm-hmm is going to choose into something that's gonna give that quick fix or at least enough of an illusion of a quick fix that it's useful.

[00:29:12] Right? Yeah. Yeah. And I can also see, you know, and I've had that conversation with parents about validation. Well then, am I just telling them that I'm okay with it? And that hopefully they're hearing us tease that apart. That's not what this is about. And you do get to say the follow up statement around like, and you have this junior license or, and you know, let's come up with a solution together that's gonna actually support you in, in figuring this out.

[00:29:41] And again, back to parental self-control and self-regulation, right? Like what are the ways, especially for parents, and I've got a few that I'm working with parents who have kids that are. You know, misusing substances and, and really mm-hmm. Hurting and that baseline anxiety can be really tough to shake.

[00:30:03] Yeah. And that worry and that fear can be really tough to shake. So how do you support parents? What are some tools that you offer parents for managing their experience of their kid? In any given day. 

[00:30:18] Katie May: Yeah. Well, and I think it's so tough because everything that we're saying is, here's what parents can do, while also holding this experience that parents are scared, they're worried, they, they don't wanna lose their child, and there are so many self-destructive behaviors that could lead down that road in one way or another.

[00:30:36] So when I think about a teenager using substances or making these self-destructive choices, of course a parent is going to be. So worried. And what parents hate to hear from me and what I had to come to terms with myself is that you have absolutely no control. Mm-hmm. You have no control over your teenager's behaviors.

[00:30:56] The best that you can do is build a strong relationship with them. That's based in kind, direct communication. Yes. So that you can influence their behavior, but you cannot control it. And so there's a lot of work that parents. Will have to do to come to terms with that lack of control. The an I feel anxiety, even talking about it right now, you have no control.

[00:31:19] They could mm-hmm. You know, go out and do whatever they want. They have a license. Yeah. They have a debit card, whatever. And so what are the ways that you can influence their behavior? Basic behaviorism tells us that you can punish, but that's not always effective. And it creates resentment, which ruptures the relationship and makes it.

[00:31:37] Harder to have that solid relationship and communication. You can have conversations, you can express concern, you can reinforce healthy behaviors by giving attention, by rewarding. These are, I mean, I'm oversimplifying right now for the sake of a podcast. Yeah. But, but that's the way that you support, you, support you validate.

[00:31:58] You reinforce the behaviors you wanna see. You try and choose your battles with the behaviors you don't wanna see, and you make sure that both you and your teenager have proper support systems, whether that's therapy, a support group, someone to talk to, a coach like you. Mm-hmm. So that you're not doing it alone.

[00:32:15] Yeah. Because parenting is so hard and parenting a teen with self-destructive behaviors is, can be very isolating and it, it makes you feel helpless at times. 

[00:32:25] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. Yeah. And helpless is a really helpless and hopeless is a really tough energy to be inside of. And I know for me, I coach parents a lot. Like just today I had some parents that I was talking to just about that practice of believing that things will be different one day.

[00:32:46] Believing that things can change and evolve, believing and having faith in. You know, their kiddo coming to a place, whether it's just the natural course of maturity, which is a thing, you know? Mm-hmm. And a broader perspective, just based on more time on the planet and or through support from people like you and your team.

[00:33:11] You know, and it can feel really hard to access that faith. I know I've had clients say, but I don't feel like that. And so what would you say to those parents? 

[00:33:22] Katie May: I think that hope feels dangerous for a lot of parents. Vulnerable, especially vulnerable. The parents that. Are tired, they're fatigued. They're burnout.

[00:33:29] Yeah. They've been going through this for years. Maybe it was behavior problems at school when they were eight, and now it's substances now that they're 16. And so having hope feels like I'm getting my hopes up and it might not work again, and I'm going to be let down again. And this is such a painful experience.

[00:33:46] And so I've seen parents come to the other side of that where they just wanna shut down. They don't, yeah, they don't. Even wanna try anymore. And that's really from this place of burnout and, and pain that they're experiencing. Mm-hmm. So how do you help them 

[00:34:01] Casey O'Roarty: move out of that? I help because I feel like it's really hard for our kids to believe and have faith in themselves if, you know, like kind of, I kind of think about it that way.

[00:34:11] Like, well, you get to, you get to hold the belief and faith in them for this period of time when they don't have that. Yeah. And then I, you know, and yeah, I mean my own experience was a solid, like four or five, six years of struggle. Mm-hmm. Like it was so slow. Oh my God. The timeline just like went on and on and on.

[00:34:30] So the endurance to be inside of the uncertainty. Mm-hmm. Right. Was really being called forth. And some days I had it, and some days I was like, fuck this, this sucks. 

[00:34:43] Katie May: Yeah, and it does suck sometimes. So how I help, it was your question. Yeah, and I think I have like a two as with everything, a two part answer to that.

[00:34:51] Great. The first part is that you're not gonna do it perfectly and it is going to suck sometimes. I'm a teen therapist. This has been my life's work. And I had a teenager that struggled and I didn't always know what to do and I did the wrong thing sometimes and I had to repair sometimes. So I think that there's that piece of just giving yourself grace and having the right support system.

[00:35:12] But to the question like what you don't, you don't need hope 'cause I have a plan. 'cause I have evidence-based practices that can help you move from where you are now to where you need to be. And I've done it hundreds of times in the past decade. And so for me. I expect that you don't have hope right now because things feel pretty hopeless and lucky for you.

[00:35:32] I know what to do with hopeless to get you to a place where things, you see the evidence that things are better, so you don't have to have hope. So I kind of like, and maybe that looks different depending on the helper and how they're approaching it. Mm-hmm. I see. And people think, I'm so weird for this, but I see a teenager who's self-harming, who is suicidal, who has parents who are frustrated with them, and I'm like, yay, this is what I do every day.

[00:35:56] Yeah. And I know how to help you and I'm so glad you found me and I found you so that we can move through this together. 

[00:36:02] Casey O'Roarty: Uh, Katie, I feel like the energy that you just gave in that response is exactly the energy that I try and, and, and so granted, you know, my typically, you know, I've got clients, I have a skillset.

[00:36:16] Yeah. And there are definitely things that show up in families that are outside of my skillset and I'm like, go see Katie or go see, you know, somebody else. We work together. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Totally. But so maybe, so I'm thinking like, oh, okay. So when I take what you just said, like the energy that you just bring brought was really about you holding Yeah.

[00:36:37] Hope and possibility for the parent. And so if a parent's listening right now and they're like, okay, my kid isn't like in the, in the far reaches of self-destructive behavior, but they're definitely having a hard time. That's exactly you guys, as you listen to Katie answer that question, that's exactly the kind of energy that I wanna encourage parents who can, who aren't in the depths, who don't need the extra helper holding it for them.

[00:37:04] That's what I want for parents to be able to say and are, you know, either. Out loud or just in the energy that they're bringing to their kiddo who's freaking out about one thing or the other, like, Hey, I know you've got this. You don't feel like you've got this, but I know that you've got this and I've seen you do this before and it's okay that you feel bb.

[00:37:29] I can hold this, I can hold this space. And going back to kind of what you were talking about with using the like proper language around are you cutting, are you having suicidal thoughts? You know, are you misuse? You know, tell me about your nicotine use or your weed use, or whatever it is. Naming it also sends that energy like, I've got this, I can handle it.

[00:37:51] You don't have to. Also, child of mine, hold the worry that you're gonna break me. 

[00:37:58] Katie May: Yes, that's it. And I think 

[00:38:00] Casey O'Roarty: that's so huge. 

[00:38:02] Katie May: And I think as I hear you talking, the words that come to me are like normalizing it. Of course, teenagers are gonna struggle. Of course they're gonna make bad decisions. Of course they're gonna be impulsive.

[00:38:12] So when you, everything you said Casey was perfect. Like when you as a parent can be like, yep. That happen, and I've got you and I'll support you and we'll figure this out. Then you don't see the shame, then you don't see the secrecy. You don't see the, I mean, they're teenagers, so they'll still separate from you.

[00:38:27] Yeah, but you don't see the same barriers because you're expecting it. I think it's the parents who get mad that it happens, that it makes everything harder. 

[00:38:37] Casey O'Roarty: I think it's also so valuable, Katie, for you being who you are, moving through what you've moved through, parenting, through what you've parented through and me.

[00:38:46] Same thing being who I am, doing the work that I do, still navigating really tough things with our teens. I think it's a really huge testament to push back against this idea that if you do everything right, whoever hell knows what that means, then somehow you can avoid your teen struggling like, like somehow their struggle is related to what you did or didn't do.

[00:39:10] Now. There's influence in everything, right? We are always, I think, a part of a dynamic. Mm-hmm. And the idea that there's a way to be, or to do that can completely circumnavigate teen brain development, wiring, temperament, you know, that's just, it's so discouraging. Right. And so I'm just really appreciating on behalf of all the listeners, uh, I'm appreciating us right now.

[00:39:37] So good job, you and me. Go us. And I'm sure that you get feedback like I do. From parents who are like, I love working with you because you've walked this path. Yeah. Right. And I think that's so validating for the parents, you know, to see people, to work with people who can say, yeah, I understand what you're going through.

[00:39:59] And actually like, because I've been in the experience of what you're going through. 

[00:40:04] Katie May: Right. It is not typical of a therapist to self disclose. It is also not typical. Well, I'm not a typical therapist. I'm saying here with the microphone, 

[00:40:13] Casey O'Roarty: like, listen to what I've dealt with. 

[00:40:15] Katie May: No. So it is not typical to share as much as I have shared, and so to have a book that really outlines my life experiences and my struggles, it's an interesting thing to have parents come in and say, I'm reading your book and I know that you've been through this.

[00:40:31] And I think there's a lot of therapists that would be uncomfortable with that. Obviously I chose it. I publish it, right? Mm-hmm. So it's there, but I do think that it's such a healing thing, thing for them to be able to see. There is again, there is hope. There's something there because I've seen you go through this, or Casey, I've seen you go through this so they know that it can be okay.

[00:40:49] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.

[00:40:58] I just wrote an email this morning and I was like, greetings from the other side of the teen years. Right. And, and sometimes I do sit with like, well, is my experience a, like, is it not typical or is there some kind of exceptional thing that happened in our family that supported my daughter? You know, being able to come out of it.

[00:41:23] And no, we're not exceptional. We're not special over here. We're just moving through it like everyone else and doing, you know, I'm so glad that I stumbled upon DBT. Like DBT was so huge for us, and we actually have a organization in here in Bellingham, middle Path Counseling in case anybody is local and listening heard.

[00:41:45] Oh, really? Yes. Yeah. They're amazing. And they have an adolescent program. And I mean, I knew nothing about it before things started getting really tough in our family. Mm-hmm. Can we talk a little bit about maybe one or two specific DBT skills? Mm-hmm. Right here, right now that parents can start modeling or teaching at home?

[00:42:07] Katie May: Yeah. 

[00:42:08] Casey O'Roarty: Do you want me to 

[00:42:08] Katie May: go? Do you want me to, my favorite? I do. Yes. Yes. So typically what I outline for anyone is that you have skills that are gonna work for you. Everyone only has a handful that they use all the time and that are accessible to them. And you typically have different skills at different levels.

[00:42:24] So if you do read the book, there's something called the parental stress meter. And when you're at the top, like an eight to 10 out of 10, meaning you're really triggered. That's when I would use something like the tip skill. Everything in DVT is an acronym. If you go through it, I have so many acronyms.

[00:42:38] You'll see the tip stands for temperature. It could be splashing cold water on your face, taking a cold shower. Maybe for you it's taking a warm shower. The I stands for intense exercise, which is one of my favorite coping skills, lifting heavy weights, doing jumping jacks, taking a brisk walk, or going for a run.

[00:42:58] And then there are two Ps, and tip one is for progressive muscle relaxation. So I. Squeeze and release your muscles one at a time, starting at the top, going to the bottom, going back up. And the other is for paced breathing. Breathing really slowly, so breathing in for seven, holding for four, breathing out for eight.

[00:43:18] These are all, I feel like I went through them very fast, but these are all ways to bring your body physiology down to a more. Centered space. Mm-hmm. So I always tell parents, you can't teach someone to swim when they're drowning. And the same is true for emotions. You can't problem solve with your teenager when either of you are just on fire.

[00:43:38] So use your tip skill to calm your body down and then check in again to see where you're at and whether it's a good time to talk or whether you're still too activated to talk. 

[00:43:48] Casey O'Roarty: I'm gonna make sure listeners, that I put each of those things in the show notes for the what TIP stands for. So is tip something like, it's not like move through all of these things, but it's pick one of these things.

[00:44:01] Pick one of these things, or it could, it's like a 

[00:44:02] Katie May: buffet. Okay. Yeah. Love it. I mean, if you try one and it's not working, try another. I'm a fan of what I call skill stacking, so trying some, giving something a good try. Try it for 15 minutes if you're still feeling stressed. Try another one. So I'll have teens that'll say, I tried that and it didn't work when they just like splashed a little water on their face and walked away.

[00:44:25] Still angry, right? Mm-hmm. So we wanna give it enough time to work. I would say give each skill at least 15 minutes to really do its job before you walk away and say it didn't 

[00:44:34] Casey O'Roarty: work. Yeah, I love that one. As a state change, like we get to shift the experience that we're having. In the moment or in the hour or however long it takes.

[00:44:46] Right. Because it's not necessarily like, yeah, I'm gonna hold this ice cube and everything's gonna be better. And what's one other thing? What's one other tool that you'd be willing to share do you think would be useful? Trying to kind of easy-ish. 

[00:44:59] Katie May: Yeah, another easy one that. So I like there's this other acronym called Accepts and it's all different distraction skills.

[00:45:09] If I were to simplify it down, it's different ways to distract yourself, like listening to music, coloring, all those things. But one of the CS in accepts is for contributing. And for me, that's something that is always helpful. So when I'm in a state of struggle helping someone else. Feels good for me. And that might be texting a friend and saying, Hey, I really liked that shirt you were wearing the other day at lunch.

[00:45:35] Right? It doesn't have to be something big, but a moment of connection. And I think for me, maybe the C could also be connection. It's not in DVT, but I think that's where the contributing comes in. It's, it's an ability to connect with someone else in a positive way. So that's another thing that. Could be helpful when you're a little more regulated mm-hmm.

[00:45:54] Than maybe at your eight to 10, outta 10, but you need something to shift your mood. 

[00:45:59] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. I know for us, one thing that came up a lot was collecting positives. Yeah. And, you know, just like throughout your day looking for, you know, making that list of what helps me feel good and, and it's so interesting 'cause I just had.

[00:46:13] So my daughter runs, and I'm so intrigued by that because I do not ever wanna run. I hope I'm never chased because I am not a runner. I am a, I'm a walker. I'll walk on incline for a long time and, but not running. And I said something to her, I said, well, I'm so glad that you love running. And she said. Mom, I do not love running.

[00:46:34] I have to run. Mm-hmm. Like that is such a, what she has found over time is that that is such a key piece to her mental wellness. 

[00:46:43] Katie May: Yeah. 

[00:46:44] Casey O'Roarty: And so like she knows, and that's the other thing I think that's so special, that can be so special about these kids. Mm-hmm. Is the level of self-awareness. Yeah. And personal growth, like it makes me feel emotional considering how much she just, her skill level and her Yeah.

[00:47:06] You know, consciousness of self and ability to be with life is so far past where I was at at 22 years old. You know, because I didn't have to move through a right dark period of time and figure out how to get out of it. So I think that's really something that's a gift really, of the struggling teen experience when we can really support them and build the scaffolding and find the help that they need.

[00:47:34] The other side isn't just like, woof, we made it through. But you know, the, just the level of depth that exists because of what they've moved through is really profound. 

[00:47:44] Katie May: Yeah. And I think you're hitting on yet another dialectic, right? If you feel your emotions deeply, it can be really hard, but it can be really beautiful too.

[00:47:52] Mm. And that's the beautiful part that you're 

[00:47:53] Casey O'Roarty: illustrating there. Mm. Thank you. Let's talk, just before we close, I know we're running outta time, but I wanna talk about this 'cause I think it's so important and it's something that I know again intimately, which is repair. Mm-hmm. Right. And when we have kids that are struggling and we're living in this fear and, and worry is exists with us all the time in the room, even though we know we have no control, like even that, it's like, oh God, what?

[00:48:17] Yeah. I have no control. You know, we live in this space of, uh, you know, Dan Siegel called, talks about brain in the palm of the hand, you know? Mm-hmm. We're kind of on our way to flipped, and so it's so much easier when fear is there to perhaps respond in a way. That is hurtful or not useful. Mm-hmm. When parents lose it or handle something poorly, how, what are your, what's your support around how they can repair that rupture in a way that strengthens relationship?

[00:48:48] Katie May: Yeah, so. I wanna start with a backstory. When I was in graduate school, I remember my, one of my professors talking about how it's always the parent's fault. And so, and I had a 18 month old at that time. And so I raised my hand and I was young and I was like, um, excuse me. So you, you're saying I'm gonna mess up my child no matter what.

[00:49:08] She kind of laughed at me and then she started talking about what's called the good enough parent, which became a very comfortable. Fruiting idea for me, which essentially says that as parents, we only need to be good enough. We only actually need to be good parents about 20% of the time, and the rest of the time we have so much space to mess up and it's more important how we repair and that we repair than we get it right the first time.

[00:49:33] And so I am what I would call a recovered yeller that. Still yells sometimes like I snap when I'm in a vulnerable state and I really prefer 

[00:49:42] Casey O'Roarty: passive aggression. Actually, Katie, that's my go-to. Okay. 

[00:49:46] Katie May: So I would just share like what I will say, because I have a really strong relationship with my teen, and they will say like, you know what?

[00:49:54] That didn't feel good for me. I mean, thankfully like. Such a guest child of a therapist, right? Yeah, totally do that. But I'll say, you're right. The way that I talked to you wasn't fair. I was overcome with emotion or I was feeling really frustrated, or I was sick, so my guard was let down and I wasn't as composed as I would like to be, but you didn't deserve that.

[00:50:15] And I think parents hesitate sometimes to just acknowledge and accept responsibility and apologize because there's this weird idea of like having. The p like the power dynamic and the respect and all of these things, but, but truly when you can be radically genuine with your child, when you can say, I messed up and I'm sorry, and I love you, and you didn't deserve that, it means so much more to the relationship than whatever.

[00:50:45] Power and respect might have been in its place before. 

[00:50:49] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. And I would take it even a little step further, or I did. And I do, which was missing for me in my experience of being a child with a dysregulated parent who would come in and say, not, I'm sorry, but I love you. Mm. And when I learned, so I'm a positive discipline trainer, and that's kind of the found Adlerian theory.

[00:51:10] That's the basis of the work that I do. And when I learned about making amends through that lens, it sounds just like you're talking genuine, naming the behavior, making the apology, and then this final step of. Here's what I'm working on so that I get better at showing up when I feel like that. That's really powerful.

[00:51:35] Yeah. I find it so, because I, it, that, that was never verbalized to me. Yeah. I never heard like it wasn't okay for me to do that and here's how I'm trying to help myself, you know, and so I really leaned into that, um, with my kids. Because I didn't want it to be, oh, here she comes to say she's sorry again.

[00:51:56] Right? 

[00:51:56] Katie May: Yeah. 

[00:51:57] Casey O'Roarty: And putting it out there like, this is what I'm working on to show up differently When I feel like that, it was almost as if the universe was like, all right, then do it. Right. If you're gonna say that out loud, if I'm gonna say this out loud, then I better work on helping myself the next time I feel that way so that I'm not continuously repeating this behavior.

[00:52:18] So I love that. I love making repairs. Yeah. Repairs are a good thing. Repairs are a good thing. So just as we wrap up, for parents who are listening, who are, hopefully you guys, hopefully you're listening and you're feeling at least 1% more hopeful and more encouraged and more empowered after hearing. Katie and I talk to each other, but I know I see you.

[00:52:41] I know that, that there are parents that are listening who feel like they've tried everything, nothing seems to work. What do you want them to know? What do what's possible when families get the right support? 

[00:52:52] Katie May: I wanna share it in story form that I've had. Dozens of clients come to my center with parents saying, this isn't gonna work.

[00:53:03] I'll send them to residential. They're never gonna make it to college. I'm worried they won't make it to 18 and 100% of those teens and parents have come out the other side with going to college, having really strong relationships. Turning around not wanting to live and living with so much purpose and so much joy and extracurriculars and friends.

[00:53:25] And so I share that to say that you're not alone in what you're experiencing. There are ways to get better and to work together. And there are helpers like Casey, like myself, like others in other places that can help you get there. So please reach out for support and don't suffer in silence. 

[00:53:44] Casey O'Roarty: Hmm. Thank you for that.

[00:53:46] What does joyful courage mean to you? 

[00:53:49] Katie May: Joyful courage means showing up and doing hard things, but knowing that that's the middle of the story. Mm. And I always tell myself that when it's hard, it's the middle of the story, and when I get to the end, I'll have something to share. 

[00:54:03] Casey O'Roarty: Uh, I love that the middle of the story.

[00:54:06] Thank you. Where can people find you and follow your work and get your book? Yes. 

[00:54:12] Katie May: The answer to both is website. You are on fire. It's fine. Dot com. Okay, so you can grab my book, uh, free resources. There's a course there. You can also buy my book anywhere you buy books online. If you search for you're on fire, it's fine.

[00:54:24] Casey O'Roarty: Yay. Well, congratulations on that. And thank you so much for hanging out with me today. This was so, such a great conversation. I'm sure it's gonna be so useful to everybody that listens. I really appreciate you. 

[00:54:36] Katie May: Thanks for having me.

[00:54:42] Casey O'Roarty: Thank you so much for listening. Thank you to my SPR partners. Julietta and Alana, thank you Danielle, for supporting with the show notes as well as Chris Mann and the team at Pod Shaper for all the support with getting the show out there and making it sound good. As I mentioned, sharing is caring. If you're willing to pass on this episode to others or take a few minutes to rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, it helps other parents find this useful content.

[00:55:10] Be sure to check out what we have going on for parents of kids. Of all ages and sign up for our newsletter to stay [email protected]. I see you doing all the things. I believe in you. See you next time.

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