Eps 632: Therapy may not be the answer for discouraged teens with Nicole Runyon

What does Joyful Courage mean to you?

“I love that question because when I saw it, I really had to pause and think about the title of your podcast. And I really love it because what it means to me is that courage is about doing hard things, right? Putting yourself out there, making yourself uncomfortable. We’ve talked a lot about that and how important that is for our kids and how important it is for us parents to do. But what’s on the other side of that is joy.

And what I’ve learned in my life so far from having challenges and going through stuff is that is what creates happiness. It’s the journey. It’s the thing that you have to contend with and work through and get to the other side of, and then you get to look back at yourself and say, ‘Wow. Look at me. I got through that. And yes, I can, and I’m capable and I trust myself that I’m gonna get through the next thing too.’ And that is what makes us happy and joyful.

I think our culture is so focused on dopamine and being happy through that. And I find that—that’s the best dopamine there is, is to get to the other side of hard.”

— Nicole Runyon

Resources Mentioned:

• Free to Fly: The Secret to Fostering Independence in the Next Generation by Nicole Runyon
• Joyful Courage: Calming the Drama and Taking Control of YOUR Parenting Journey by Casey O’Roarty
• 10 Rules for Raising Teens in a High Tech World – A book by Dr. Jean Twenge
• Untigering by Iris Chen
• The Positive Discipline book

Where to Find Nicole Runyon:

• Website: nicolerunyon.com
• Instagram/Facebook: @iGenerationMentalHealth
• LinkedIn: Nicole Runyon

Transcription

[00:00:00] Casey O'Roarty: Welcome, welcome, welcome to the Joyful Courage Podcast. This is a place where parents of tweens and teens come to find inspiration, information, and encouragement. In the messy terrain of adolescents, this season of parenting is no joke. And while the details of what we're all moving through might be slightly different, we are indeed having a very collective experience.
[00:00:30] This is a space where we center building, relationship, nurturing life skills, and leaning into our own personal growth and man. The opportunities abound, right. My name is Casey Ody. I am a parent coach, positive discipline lead trainer, and captain of the adolescent ship over at Sprout Bowl. I'm also a speaker and a published author.
[00:00:53] I've been working with parents and families for over 20 years. And continue to navigate my own experience of being a mom with my two young adult kids. I'm so honored that you're here and listening. Please give back to the podcast by sharing it with friends or on social media rate and review us on Apple or Spotify.
[00:01:13] Word of mouth is how we grow. Thank you so, so much. Enjoy the show.
[00:01:23] Hi, listeners, welcome back to the Joyful Courage Podcast. I have a conversation for you today that might challenge some of what you've been hearing in the parenting world, and I think that's exactly why we need to have it and why I have the perfect guest to have this conversation with. Her name is Nicole Renon.
[00:01:44] She is a child psychotherapist. Who started noticing something alarming in her practice. Kids showing up with severe mental health symptoms, but without the trauma or difficult life circumstances that would typically explain what she was seeing. And as she dug deeper, Nicole realized these struggles weren't rooted in what was happening to these children, but in how we as parents and as a culture are showing up for them.
[00:02:12] So Nicole believes that today's children are messengers. They are the canaries in the coal mine, and that instead of pathologizing them or rushing them into therapy, we need to listen to what their behaviors are trying to tell us. And here's the part that might surprise you. She's going to talk to us about how some of our most well intentioned approaches, the ones that maybe we've been told are best practice might actually be part of the problem.
[00:02:39] Nicole is a parent coach. She's a keynote speaker and the author of the bestselling book, free to Fly. I love that title, free to Fly, the Secret to Fostering Independence in the Next Generation. She's renowned for her expertise in child and adolescent mental health, backed by an extensive 22 year career in the field.
[00:02:59] And most importantly, she is the mom of two kids, so she knows the trenches. And like I mentioned, some of what you might listen to us talk about might feel a certain way or may even push against what you believe about responsive or connected parenting. But what I'm asking you to do as the listener is to stay curious because ultimately in Nicole's message is one of empowerment that you as a parent.
[00:03:26] Have more influence and ability to support your kids' wellbeing than you might realize. You don't need to be perfect. You need to be informed, intentional, and willing to tolerate some discomfort, both yours and theirs. So we're gonna dig in. Hi Nicole. Welcome to God. Lovely. Yeah, thank you. Thank you for the lovely introduction.
[00:03:44] I'm happy to be here. Yay. I'm super excited about this conversation. It's been brewing for me. In a lot of different ways. But before we get into all of that, I wanna know a little bit more about how you found yourself doing this work and working with teens.
[00:04:01] Nicole Runyon: So that goes all the way back to my childhood.
[00:04:04] Uh, I always wanted to help children in some capacity, and for a while it was I wanted to be a pediatrician. And then, um, my youngest brother, who was nine years younger than me, was a toddling toddler and fell and skinned his knees one day. And I was there, I was 10 years old helping him with his wounds.
[00:04:22] And all the while I had a pit in my stomach. And I knew in that moment that I could never be a pediatrician, and so I decided that I should be a child psychologist. So here I am all these years later. Um, I specialized in seeing children for about 20 years, and I've recently, about two or three years ago, made a change.
[00:04:44] To work mainly with parents. Mm-hmm. Uh, because what I found in my practice as early as 2014, that, as you said in the intro, I was seeing severe mental health cases with no root in anything, um, that I could connect it to. There was no trauma, there was no abuse, no neglect. Intact families, loving, supportive parents, and I was really baffled.
[00:05:10] So I started to do some digging and what I had come to realize is that the schools in my community had, uh, allowed the middle schoolers in particular to have their smart devices during the school day. Like all day. And they essentially were getting unfettered access. Mm-hmm. And so I saw a direct correlation in my practice.
[00:05:30] Uh, there was that influx of, um, you know, adolescent girls that were social media addicted who were self-harming. Many of them had eating disorders. And quite a few of them, unfortunately, were coming to me as their first visit out of the hospital after their first suicide attempt. Hmm. And so. I started talking about it, I thought, you know, people really need to know what's happening.
[00:05:54] Right? Yeah. And I really wanted to get the message out to parents that it's not always what you think when you see mental health symptoms in your kid.
[00:06:03] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:06:03] Nicole Runyon: And we really need to understand the environment more before we jump to pathologizing their reaction. Yeah.
[00:06:09] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. Mm-hmm. I'm glad that you brought up screens.
[00:06:11] Now, listeners, we're not gonna talk about screens today. This is not, this is not an interview about screens, although. Every interview should be about screens. 'cause they are freaking hard. And most of my client calls, they're somewhere in the conversation where we're talking about their child's limits or lack of limits or access or, um, but there was that study that showed that increase, and I think it was right there, right 2014 ish, where high access to smart devices correlates with.
[00:06:46] The sharp increase in mental health challenges with teenagers. Right? Yeah. Didn't it all happen like the same year?
[00:06:53] Nicole Runyon: It was right. It was closer to maybe 20 16, 17. Okay. It was Jane Twangy. Yeah. And particularly she found that it was social media correlating with depression. Yeah. And suicidal outcomes. Yeah.
[00:07:05] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. And I mean, 2017, that's when things started getting dicey at our house. That's for sure. And yes, there was access. And I just wanna pause for one second and tell people that are listening who have given up on the screen limit battle, this is like. Kind of life or death, like don't give up. Okay. Figure it out.
[00:07:27] Listen to some more podcasts. Get some support. You know, hire a coach or somebody that can help you because it is doing damage. Especially those of you that are listening with middle schoolers. I actually had Dr. Twenge on the podcast not too long ago. We talked about her new book, get Her Book, and. Be the grownup.
[00:07:49] So that's all I'm gonna say about that. Love it. But thank you. I'm supporting that message. Yes, yes. Thank you. With PSA, welcome to my TED Talk. Um, yeah, so I love that you were, you knew from such a young age that you wanted to work with kids. I do have a question 'cause I'm always curious about people who work with teenagers in particular, because I know for me, when I decided to step into only working with families around.
[00:08:16] Adolescent challenges in parenting feels a little bit, not so much anymore, but at the start it was like, why isn't anybody talking about the teenagers? And then I started talking about the teenagers and then I realized like, Ooh, there's a lot here. And it's a big responsibility and one size doesn't fit all.
[00:08:35] And family systems are dynamic and come with their own multi-generations of history. It can feel. Really slippery inside of the adolescent space. So what was it like for you? Did you mostly see younger kids? Did you ever have that moment of like, do I, don't I work with teenagers or were you full in on the teens from the start?
[00:08:58] Nicole Runyon: So interestingly enough, I wanted to see all the ages. Okay. Just because I wanted the variety and I love child development. And so I'm always interested in working with the different ages based on where they're at developmentally and what can be done and what can you know, be resolved if they didn't get what they needed earlier on.
[00:09:18] And they're an older kid. But what ended up happening in my practice was that I had a huge influx of teenagers. Mm-hmm. And actually early adolescents, like middle school, that was the bulk of my practice was middle school. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:09:31] Casey O'Roarty: Is there something that's happening? I feel like I've done my own reading and my own learning, but it feels like those early adolescent years.
[00:09:40] You know, Dr. Siegel talks about the emotional spark, right? The, the pendulum swing of the high highs and the low lows. Is that teen development stuff ha. Is it most potent in those early teen years? Because I do know that when I talk to parents of, of early like twelves and 13 year olds, they're like, oh my God.
[00:09:59] It's like they've been hijacked by. You know, invasion of the body snatchers, right? Yes.
[00:10:03] Nicole Runyon: Hands down. Okay. So, so the reason for that is because starting at 12, they go through the stage of development of identity development.
[00:10:13] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:10:14] Nicole Runyon: And they go through that until 18. So that's a six year long emotional, social, emotional phase.
[00:10:19] That they experience. And 12 of course, is the very beginning of that. And it's much like a toddler learning how to walk. They're gonna be very shaky. Mm-hmm. They get stand up, they take a couple steps, they fall right on their bum, and then they get back up and do it again. And toddlers are very resilient, but adolescents, when they fall, it's very painful.
[00:10:40] Yeah, and it's really important that us parents and educators and anybody working with kids is able to have that container and hold the space of, yes, this is hard. I will validate that, but. You have to go through it.
[00:10:55] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:10:56] Nicole Runyon: You can't avoid it.
[00:10:57] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:10:57] Nicole Runyon: And you can't think that something is just going to show up in your life and make it easy, like a smart device or like permissive parenting that allows for a kid to not have to be challenged mm-hmm.
[00:11:10] Or not have to get to the other side of that. And so that's why those early years are rocky, because we as a culture aren't really good at that right now. Yeah. Um, we're really, our distress
[00:11:21] Casey O'Roarty: tolerance is low.
[00:11:22] Nicole Runyon: It's very low. And what other, what people don't understand either is what happened before 12. So child development is very foundational.
[00:11:32] It works like the rungs of a ladder and each stage builds on the one before it. And so middle childhood from nine to 12 is a very unique time. And we also, they call it the sweet spot. It felt like the
[00:11:43] Casey O'Roarty: sweet spot.
[00:11:44] Nicole Runyon: Yeah. Well, compared to the teen years it is, but for some parents it actually is quite tumultuous because their mild mannered sweet kids start to get emotional.
[00:11:54] Mm-hmm. Starting as young as nine, um, because adolescents technically starts. At nine.
[00:11:59] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:12:00] Nicole Runyon: And nine year olds go through this major developmental growth spurt around developing a consciousness of themselves as an individual outside of the family. So friends start to become more important. They wanna place their teachers, they're thinking about like extracurricular activities and sort of getting out more, uh, away from the family.
[00:12:18] And that comes with some anxiety. And what manifests from the anxiety is a big burst of emotions. Lots of big feelings and mild mannered kids can all of a sudden start tantrumming and parents are very bewildered at what happened. And so this is when I would get a lot of calls for kids, nine and 10 year olds.
[00:12:38] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:12:39] Nicole Runyon: And before I saw them, I would do this evaluation with the parents of, this is probably nine year change stuff. We can talk more about we maybe what might be going on underneath the surface, but it's not. Pathological. It's very normal and we wanna be able to, that's when we wanna start that frustration tolerance and tolerance for discomfort, because going into 12, then they're gonna be able to go through that a little bit better.
[00:13:02] Casey O'Roarty: What do you think? Right? Like what you said, this isn't a pathology, this is really normal. Where did we get the idea that our kids expressing that nine year? Distress was abnormal. What do you, you know, do you have any answers for that? Like why did we think, I mean, I know for me, I was a teacher before I was a parent, and so I was like.
[00:13:28] Parenting's probably not gonna be that hard for me 'cause I was a teacher and I was a pretty, I mean I, there's definitely plenty of things in my upbringing that were challenging, but I also had a temperament that was pretty easygoing, coupled with pretty outgoing and Yeah. And seeing my, you know, and I have, and, and we don't even realize that we're attached to this idea that things are gonna, you know, should be.
[00:13:57] I don't know, relatively easy, like we should be able to handle it and then it becomes hard and there's this idea that there must be something wrong. What is that? What do you think that's about for parents? Yeah.
[00:14:10] Nicole Runyon: I think that has to do with us as parents and our unresolved issues and things that went on in our childhood that didn't work for us and that didn't get healed along the way.
[00:14:22] Yeah, because as, as we've, we know culturally we swing the pendulum and so parents parenting say generation Alpha today are millennial parents. And, uh, the millennials went through a very unique time because they were really the first before Gen Z to have more tech in their lives. Mm-hmm. And, and they were the first generation, I mean, I, I don't know if you recall, but when they came into the workforce, they came in with Augusto and employers were like, who are these people?
[00:14:51] They're entitled, they're narcissistic. They want promotions, they want raises right away before they've proven themselves. And that's because that's when the parenting changed. The kids started to be less capable because they started relying on tech more, and the parents responded with. We want to do more for them.
[00:15:10] We want to help them. More conversations around safety showed up, and that's when the participation trophies came on the scene. Ugh. Because suddenly we were scared to hurt their feelings. We were scared to allow them to have any kind of pain. So now here we have millennials that didn't learn how to tolerate their pain, and so they're raising their Gen Alpha kids.
[00:15:29] Without pain, and that's why parenting feels so hard. Yeah. Because we have to somehow roll out the red carpet every day thinking that we have to bring magic to our children. And that's impossible. And we're really trying to be living up to these unexpected standards Yeah. That are just not working.
[00:15:50] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:15:50] And I mean, as a Gen X parent, I definitely felt that. Intolerance. You know, I mean, things swung pretty hard over here and I don't think it's super useful, but I definitely look back and think, Ooh, I could have navigated that differently. I could have sent more of a message that my kiddos were capable of moving through what they were going through.
[00:16:18] And I also recognized, I was thinking about this the other day. I was like, you know what? I'm a really, really good parent to my young adult kids, and I and I, I own that. I feel good about that. That's awesome. And I can, and it's very clear that it is something that I've grown into over time as they have shown me and challenged me and dragged me through their experience, and then my willingness to say, okay.
[00:16:48] What do I, what do I need to change? How do I need to grow to better support our kids? So I just wanna say, you know, as we talk about all this to the listeners, this no, we're not talking about being perfect and. You know, and, and always knowing and doing whatever the right thing or the best thing for your kiddos.
[00:17:08] Instead, it's just self-awareness and recognizing, wow, I'm really intolerant to how distressed my kiddo is right now. And then what am I gonna do about that?
[00:17:29] You mentioned, and I dug all around your website. As I prep for this today, you talk about kids as canaries in the coal mine and that they're trying to tell us something through their behavior and what's happening with mental health. What do you think that they're trying to tell us?
[00:17:42] Nicole Runyon: Well, their behaviors are pretty extreme, you know?
[00:17:46] Mm-hmm. Many kids are melting down, they're having sensory overload, they're overstimulated. Many kids are, you know, A-D-D-A-D-H-D, unfocused, very hyperactive, can't settle. Lots of anxiety. Obviously we talked a lot about, you know, depression and suicidal outcomes. So what those messages are telling us is that their environments are essentially toxic.
[00:18:11] And that isn't just about the tech. Yeah, it's about the food they're eating and you know, the ultra process, sugary foods that cause inflammation and you know, body inflammation is also brain inflammation. And so we really can't expect kids to be processing really toxic ingredients without their brains getting affected.
[00:18:32] And you know, then we have the parenting where parents are really struggling with how to, you know, raise healthy, happy children and maintain themselves. Right? I think parents are stressed out. They're nervous systems are in fight or flight all the time, and. There really is ultimately a lack of connection in the family because of all of the things going on that are overstimulating in the environment.
[00:19:02] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. And you know, something that I've said plenty of times here is we tend to want to culturally talk about, oh, teenagers in their phones, this is a human Yeah. Being problem. So when I hear you say lack of connection, it's not just kids on their phones. It's parents on their technology as well. My kids are really good at calling me out on that, and I was really good at saying, wow, I'm working for work.
[00:19:32] Yes. But it's, it's real. And I'm really glad that you bring up, you know, stuff like food, you know, and how we're feeding ourselves and acknowledging to everyone that, again, it's not about becoming this rigid, strict enforcer of an environment that is, as you know, living off the grid, pure homegrown garden, fresh farm to table food, and no tech.
[00:20:03] But it is an invitation to take a look at the whole picture of what's happening with our kiddos. I also think about the rhetoric on the national stage and you know, kind of the loosening. As much as I love a good binge, I love a good binge. I love good storytelling. I am so happy about streaming services and everything we get to watch.
[00:20:28] But there's been such a loosening around what our young kids, and by young I mean like 11, 12, 13, and even, you know, my 15, 16, 17 year olds watching euphoria and 13 reasons why. And I mean, we had a lot of really powerful conversations because of those shows. But I also wonder too, if that loosening of what is available plays into that toxic.
[00:20:56] Culture
[00:20:58] Nicole Runyon: as well. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, because to your point. We're not looking at, you need to be in one extreme or the other. Some kind of a middle ground, right? Yeah, so, so if you think of, you know, the average family on a weekday, at the end of the day, evening time, after there's work and school and extracurricular activities in many families are checking out on their devices because they've had long, stressful, exhausting days.
[00:21:23] And that's a way for people to calm. And so. I suggest something very simple. Everyone put their devices down. You go to the grocery store, you pick out your favorite ingredients, maybe something everybody likes. You cook a meal together, you sit down, you have dinner, you keep the lights down low. You like candles because studies show that if you.
[00:21:43] Sit with candles at a meal that you spend longer, uh, connecting with people. And so, no, you don't have to like move to the farm. I mean, there's been many days where I've said to my husband, we're moving to the farm. Yeah, yeah. But, but no, that's not reality for most people. And so what is real is that we all can make those choices every day to sort of simplify our lives, to simplify the outside external sources that are causing all of this.
[00:22:11] Overstimulation toxicity in our bodies. Mm-hmm. And just be together. You know, when you look into somebody's eyes, especially someone you love and you feel connected with, and you feel like you trust 'em, it cues the nervous system for safety. Instead of looking at your own individual smart device, look into somebody's eyes and talk to them.
[00:22:32] And that goes a long way. And that's very simple. We can all do that.
[00:22:37] Casey O'Roarty: And I love the candles. Like that totally cracks me up. My son always wanted to light candles at the table, you know? And sometimes I was like, no, God, not tonight. Okay. You know? Now I'm going back to like, oh, I should have been more excited.
[00:22:51] Except, do you know what happens when there's candles lit at the table? What happens? Everybody's, well, not everybody, but my son in particular, who was my guest not too long ago on the podcast, God bless him, loved that kid. He would like. Breathe as heavy as he could, like from his seat. Just see him trying to blow out, like, you know, like trying to blow out the candles, but not make, but keeping it on the down low.
[00:23:19] My gosh, I'd always be like, Ian, you lit the candles. Do you need to blow them out once and then relight them so you can get it outta your cyst? Just a little side note, I think it's funny. Oh, that's cute. But I love all of that and I, I especially love, I remember when my kids were young, young. And we were really working on, well, the fantasy was we gotta shorten bedtime.
[00:23:41] And then we realized like, oh, it's not about shortening it 'cause there's no shortening it. We just need to start earlier. And what are the visual cues we can give that we're winding down? So I love the idea. Those visual cues of lights being dimmed and candles being lit, and just using the environment as a tool for regulation, for grounding, for connection.
[00:24:08] I think that's something that. Is accessible to all of us. Like we can all do that. So that's, I think, really helpful. Yeah. You also have a little bit of a beef with, um, gentle parenting. And I have to tell you, like I am not a fan of the phrase gentle parenting. Yeah. I had an interview with, um, Iris Chen who wrote.
[00:24:32] Tiger Untying, I think it's called. And she, we, she and I went back and forth a little bit and she was saying how. Gentle parenting is a phrase that's just in contrast to what has felt like violent parenting. Right. Parenting that has, you know, just really leaned heavy on corporal punishment and the, you know, vertical relationships and power over.
[00:24:58] And so I was like, okay, I can accept that. Mm-hmm. But I think it's so misunderstood. Even positive parenting. I think these phrases are so misunderstood. 'cause most of us came from. Authoritarian parenting. Yes. And we know we don't wanna do what our parents did to us, maybe. Yes. Gen Xers. And so the swing into Okay, then I'm gonna be nice, has totally eliminated the importance of firmness.
[00:25:29] Mm-hmm. Right. So I, I teach positive discipline and one of our pillars is kindness and firmness at the same time being connected. Right. Respecting the child, the teen in front of us, in our behavior, in our tone, while also respecting ourselves in the situation, which is what we would consider the firmness piece.
[00:25:47] So talk a little bit about what you've noticed over time in your practice and in your work about, you know, quote, gentle parenting and this kind of newer, I don't know how new it is, but this different approach. To being with our kids.
[00:26:02] Nicole Runyon: I fully agree. I think it has been misunderstood and misconstrued. I think the original intention, my understanding is the original intention of gentle parenting was really authoritative parenting.
[00:26:14] Mm-hmm. Which is exactly what you're describing, right? The firmness and the love and the respect, and not the, you know, the parent that is the, what I say goes, and I don't wanna hear what you have to say. Don't cry, I'm gonna, or I'll give you something to cry about. Right. That right. That is that authoritarian parenting that many of his Gen Xers had, and that didn't work.
[00:26:37] And so what happened to Gen X is of course, we swung too far mm-hmm. Into the direction of. Not having that middle ground and caring too much about the feelings and having the feelings drive us our kids' feelings. Driving, then the parenting. And so then you lose the firmness, you lose the boundaries and you lose the authority, which actually is safe for children.
[00:27:01] So the most ideal form of parenting is that parenting that says, no, you cannot. So let's take teenagers. 'cause we've been talking about them. Yeah. Yeah. Please, no, you cannot go to this party. Because I know the parents aren't gonna be home, and there's going to be drinking and drugs and all the things, and I am your parent, and I am here to protect you until you go out in the world on your own.
[00:27:24] And I am, this is my choice that this isn't appropriate for you. Mm-hmm. And I love you. Mm-hmm.
[00:27:30] Casey O'Roarty: Right. Yeah. And then I love you and you just turned 14. And yeah. There will be time in the future where this might be something that you're gonna get to navigate. Yeah.
[00:27:38] Nicole Runyon: And then the, the teenager will say, I hate you.
[00:27:40] You're ruining my life. You're the worst mom ever. Dare I dare you, bitch. And they slam the door. Yeah, you bitch. Which I said to my mother, and she will never let me hear the end of it. I was probably about 14. Oh man, I would've gotten taken down. Well, I said, I mean, my mom had
[00:27:55] Casey O'Roarty: mastered the look that, oh
[00:27:57] Nicole Runyon: yeah.
[00:27:58] I'll tell you what, I said it under my breath. I didn't think she heard me. I didn't say it to her face. I would never dare do that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But yeah. And then the thing about the gentle parenting is. They either don't do that, right? 'cause it'll hurt the child's feelings, or the child will be mad at them.
[00:28:17] Or if they do do it, they back down when the child acts out and says all the things like, I hate you. Right? And so the authoritative parent steps into their authority out of love, because discipline is love.
[00:28:30] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:28:31] Nicole Runyon: And when we hear that word discipline, we think of corporal punishment. Right? Right. You know, hitting and soap in the mouth and belts and all the things, and that is not discipline, that's abuse.
[00:28:41] Yeah. Right. Yeah. So, so we really have to get more towards the middle. Yeah. And what I find as a therapist is that anytime we get towards the middle of any kind of wounding, it feels threatening because it's, feels like it's getting closer to the thing that we hate it.
[00:28:57] Casey O'Roarty: Right.
[00:28:58] Nicole Runyon: And that's why we're really struggling with that authoritative parenting piece.
[00:29:02] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:29:02] Nicole Runyon: Um, and then we're following all these parenting trends because we think, well, this is the right way. 'cause we're not tapping into our own instincts 'cause we're not allowing ourself the pain of our childhood and what we didn't like, but we well, and
[00:29:15] Casey O'Roarty: can
[00:29:15] Nicole Runyon: we trust
[00:29:15] Casey O'Roarty: our instincts? I mean, I wonder about that as well.
[00:29:21] I mean, I think on some level absolutely, but I also wonder about just those wounds and that conditioning and like even remembering when I didn't realize how attached I had become to the messaging around education and my family of origin. And when my oldest, you know, major mental health spiral, she's been on the podcast and talked about it.
[00:29:45] Dropped out of school in 11th grade. I mean, she really had to drag me along before I could get to a place of acceptance that her journey was gonna look different than the traditional path. And I realized like, oh, I thought, you know, I made a big point, at least to myself about how different I was than my parents and how.
[00:30:13] Open-minded I was to whatever my kids needed, but when push came to shove mess, that message was really deep inside of me and something that I had to take a look at and recognize, like, okay, but what do I think about this? And who is my daughter in this context and what does she need? Yeah. Anyway, I just think that's interesting too.
[00:30:38] Like there's instinct and then there's. Just, I guess that's what you're talking about when you're talking about the unhealed wounds, but I think there's also this like conditioning and messaging that if we don't look at it, it's all truth with a capital T versus, oh, this is learned and am I gonna keep writing this as my truth, or do I wanna examine it and maybe.
[00:31:03] Take a look and decide what I think about it.
[00:31:06] Nicole Runyon: Well, I don't think it's an either or from the way you're describing it. I think it's a both and. Okay. Because like the first chapter in my book is called The Mirror. And so it's all about how when we look at our kids, we're like looking in the mirror, right?
[00:31:18] Mm-hmm. And that's our own stuff and our own wounding and our own productions, and we wanna make sure we do exactly what you're talking about. Like that self-reflection and saying, okay, well actually this is my stuff. I'm gonna put that to the side and I'm gonna look at my individual kid and think, what do they need?
[00:31:33] Right? Yeah. And that's the instinct.
[00:31:36] Casey O'Roarty: And
[00:31:36] Nicole Runyon: so, so when we can resolve ourselves, which is why it's the first chapter, it's so important. It's foundational to the work I do with parents. When we can do that, then we can look at our child and say, yep, I know you. I know what you
[00:31:49] Casey O'Roarty: need. Mm-hmm.
[00:31:50] Nicole Runyon: And we need to be able to trust that.
[00:31:53] Yeah. Because we're. Following Too many influencers and too many parenting trends and too many, I mean, I am
[00:31:58] Casey O'Roarty: one. I guess my husband's like, you're an influencer.
[00:32:00] Nicole Runyon: Well, yeah. I mean, I am too. Right? But what we're saying is connect to, to your child, right? Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Yeah. And, and there are other influencers are not saying that I, I personally do not appreciate the scripts.
[00:32:14] Yeah. The, the tips and the tricks and the how tos and scripts and three
[00:32:17] Casey O'Roarty: steps towards, yeah.
[00:32:19] Nicole Runyon: Because it's not that simple
[00:32:20] Casey O'Roarty: and it's a lie.
[00:32:21] Nicole Runyon: Yeah,
[00:32:22] Casey O'Roarty: totally. And then parents get really discouraged. Yeah. Because it doesn't work. And then it's like, this doesn't work, so my kid must have a big problem. That's right.
[00:32:30] Yeah. Yeah. So I love the idea of putting up the mirror. Let's just tease that a little bit more because I think it's easy to be like, to think about, oh yeah, our kids are a mirror. At the surface, that might sound like they're showing you how you act, which is not what we're talking about. Yeah. They're showing you where distress lives for you.
[00:32:53] Yes. And a place to get curious because some kid, and I love this, like some parents do not care that their children's bedrooms are a disaster. They can completely let it go, and it's a non-issue. I was raised with a. Mother, who is one of my very best friends now, and I love her dearly, and as a young mom, it's little OCD and extremely reactive and messy rooms set her off.
[00:33:24] Big time. And so what I noticed is when my kids were, you know, for me it was this tug of war, of wanting so badly to be easygoing about their rooms while also so aware of just. This unbelievable physical reaction to chaos in their room. Mm-hmm. And having friends who were like, yeah, it just doesn't bug me.
[00:33:52] So I think coming back to that mirror thing, like we're all showing up with our own stuff. That's right. And we all get to recognize, Ooh, this is really distressing to me. I wonder why. Like, what is here for me? And that's what we're talking about when we're talking about the mirror.
[00:34:11] Nicole Runyon: Yes. And then add, taking, taking what's good from that and then leaving what doesn't work.
[00:34:18] Right. So what's good from that, your, your explanation or your example is that we want to instill, you know mm-hmm. Good hygiene and proper organization and Sure. You know, I'm a firm believer in if your space is a mess. That's like an outward expression of what's going on in your head. And if you, you know, especially if you're doing homework in your room, you want, you, you wanna have a clean space to have a clear, clear head to do that.
[00:34:42] Um, but of course you want to go about it in a different way than your mother did because it didn't work for you and it was high anxiety producing and you know, you wanna go about it with a more kind of educational and mm-hmm. And even firm boundary kind of thing, you know? Yeah. Like, Hey, this is how we are.
[00:34:59] This is how what? How we do things in our house. This is our family values
[00:35:02] Casey O'Roarty: system. Yeah. And this is what we're practicing. That's right. You know, I'm grateful to say that my two young adult kids keep a pretty tidy space and when it does kind of spiral into chaos, they know what to do. Yeah. They know what to to do.
[00:35:17] That's right.
[00:35:27] So now I'm gonna shift gears a little bit. There is a, it feels like a pervasive cultural message right now that when our kids are struggling, the answer is therapy. I was just talking, it was so interesting. I think this was residual from our little conversation last week. I was talking to a potential client yesterday and she was saying like, yeah, I'm looking into therapists.
[00:35:50] And I said, well. You could also be looking into healthy adults in their life that they could just be in relationship with and, and talk to. And it might not, this might not be a therapy situation. And you say, you know, in your work and what we're talking about here, therapy isn't always the answer. And also parents are powerfully positioned to help their kids, which can feel.
[00:36:18] Radical, help us understand the power of influence that parents have. Yeah.
[00:36:24] Nicole Runyon: Yeah. So, you know, you mentioned a while back about the content that they're watching and mm-hmm. You know, parents just kind of thinking, well, this is just what the kids are doing and there's nothing we can do about it. And I actually think through the power of our connection with them, that we wanna make sure we have the most influence over them than anything from the outside world.
[00:36:46] And of course, the outside world is going to influence them. That's the way of of life, but we wanna have more influence over them, and we do that through our connection. And so when I say that parents are more powerfully positioned than, for example, a therapist, well yeah, because you gave birth to them or if you didn't, you, you know, you have been with them and have taken care of them for most of their lives and you know them better than anyone and.
[00:37:15] Sure I can connect to them. That's a special gift that I have. I was very good at it, but it's gonna take me a lot longer to build that rapport and that connection with them, for them to trust me to really open up and to really figure out what's at the root of their issues. And if I help the parent, like that's why this work is so powerful and you know this 'cause you coach parents too.
[00:37:37] If I help the parent, then that kid, whatever that issue is, is going to get better faster.
[00:37:42] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:37:43] Nicole Runyon: And so that's why I say it's more powerful. Like I can do it, but you are better at doing it than I am. Yeah. And why wouldn't you if people like you and me can help hold that space for you and help give you the tools?
[00:37:57] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. Well, and I think there's also something about our kids aren't struggling in a vacuum. Mm-hmm. When we empower parents to rec, and that's something that I say all the time on this show, is the most powerful tool you have for influencing your kids' behavior is the relationship that you grow and nurture with them.
[00:38:17] And really center that relationship, which it gets kind of slippery again when we're talking about like, you know, stuff going down or they've, you know, I, I love the part in the positive discipline book that says, well, kids raised with positive discipline, rebel. And the answer was, yeah. And you'll probably have a front row seat versus them going underground with it.
[00:38:39] And I know I definitely. Continue to experience that with my kids and their willingness to share with me and my work of being with what they're sharing in a way that's helpful and not hurtful or helpful and not disconnecting be, or just like bearing witness to whatever it is they wanna share. Unload.
[00:39:00] So, yes. And you know, in our situation, I remember when the struggles happened in early adolescent and there was a lot of resistance. To talking to somebody and, which, I mean, I was all for like therapy, reiki yoga, like what do you need? Like, let's just someone, if you don't wanna talk to me about whatever is clearly happening for you, who do you wanna talk to?
[00:39:28] You know? And she was just like, I don't wanna talk to anybody, you know, for a long time. And then old enough, right? Timing. And the perfect match of somebody who she felt saw her and understood her and validated her in a way that I hadn't been able to simultaneously this, we did the DBT program here in in Bellingham, and so simultaneously we were doing the skills group together and I was learning new skills and she saw me doing my work as well.
[00:40:04] So, I mean, pathologizing, I just knew that, you know, something was wrong, like the bad afterschool special had arrived and I was unskilled. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. So, you know, with those parents who are feeling like hearing us, and yes, I get that I have influence, but I'm completely overwhelmed. I feel like we've tried everything.
[00:40:29] Oh. Talk a little bit about where there is power and influence that maybe they don't realize exists. Like what are they missing? What do you want those parents to know?
[00:40:40] Nicole Runyon: I think in some circumstances, I don't think it sounds like it was in your circumstance, but I saw this a lot in my practice. Kids, when they're experiencing anxiety or big feelings or depressive feelings, sometimes it's because the parents aren't giving them enough independence.
[00:40:58] You know, anxiety, for example, is, uh, a feeling of chaos inside and a feeling of a loss of control. And so if, you know, say for example, you are nine and you feel like, like the nine year change brings you this newfound. Independence and consciousness around yourself as an individual, and you're ready to sort of go ride your bikes in the ne bike in the neighborhood with your friends and your parents are scared because they think it's not safe and they keep you home, then you're gonna develop a lack of trust in yourself.
[00:41:31] Casey O'Roarty: Hmm.
[00:41:32] Nicole Runyon: Because they're sending you the message that you can't be trusted or things aren't safe. Or you're not safe, right? And that's going to be internalized into an anxious feeling. And so if the parents are trying to help that anxious kid because of that particular issue, and they just can't figure it out, they talk about feelings all the time.
[00:41:53] They, you know. They, they do the, the reiki and they do the, the deep breathing, and they go outside and they play, and they read books and all the things, and it's not working. Then if they don't understand this dynamic and this process that's happening developmentally, then they're going to outsource that to a therapist, right?
[00:42:12] Mm-hmm. Which on all levels, like on the surface or in a vacuum. There's nothing wrong with that. That's, I would expect that. Right. And I was on the other side of that thinking, yeah, of course you're calling me. I understand I'm gonna take this case and I'm going to help your kid, but if the parents aren't doing the work to change that environment at home, then I could sit with that kid.
[00:42:34] From now until Kingdom come and that kid is going to actually get more anxious because then he's gonna feel like, oh, well I really can't fix this because I've been in therapy and I'm talking about it. Nothing's working. And Right. And then it becomes about more anxiety, and then it's about having to take medication, right?
[00:42:53] Casey O'Roarty: Yes. And
[00:42:53] Nicole Runyon: so. Yes. So that's why I think it's really important for parents to understand child development, what kids need when they need it, to be able to say, yeah, that's really scary to let my kid go and ride their bike in the neighborhood. Because I heard about that one kid that rode his bike and he almost got hit by a car.
[00:43:10] Right, right. And that's our work as parents to work through that discomfort so we can allow for them to do what they need developmentally. And then we won't see half of these mental health symptoms we're seeing.
[00:43:21] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah,
[00:43:22] Nicole Runyon: and so that's the population of parents I'm talking to, not the population of parents whose kids actually need therapy.
[00:43:28] Right. So from your example that you are describing, it sounds like you tried all the things, which is great. Before you outsource that to a therapist and then you realize, you know what? I don't have these skills. Somebody else does, so we're going to do this, and it worked. Mm-hmm. That's beautiful. That's wonderful.
[00:43:44] I'm so happy. Therapy exists for that purpose, but there's a lot of kids in therapy who don't need it. And we're making it worse actually.
[00:43:53] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. Yeah. And what about the balance between meeting our kids' needs and overindulging in their wants? I just tomorrow, well, we're recording on the 5th of November and tomorrow I have a show coming out.
[00:44:06] All about our no, not yet response. And like being with what can show up when we're a hard no on something which, hey everybody, full permission. You're allowed to be a hard no. Like it is okay to say no. Um, and I'm talking about curiosity, like using curiosity, using validation. It makes sense that you wanna do this, it makes sense that you wanna.
[00:44:31] Ride your bike across town and you're nine or you're 12 or so, here's the actual parameters, and again, that distress. Right, that distress that comes up, how do you, it can feel murky when we're told, like be responsive, be attuned, but also like, I guess it's that kind and firm piece, isn't it? Absolutely,
[00:44:56] Nicole Runyon: it is.
[00:44:56] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:44:57] Nicole Runyon: So it's, to your point, it's sure you can ride your bike with your friends, but you're nine and so you can't go past this certain point because you're just learning. And when you are 10 or 11. Then you'll get more freedom. Yeah. And you'll be able to go further, right? Yeah. And then that kid is gonna say, well, that's not fair.
[00:45:19] My friend gets to do this, this, and that. Right? Mm-hmm. And then the parent has to be, I'm very sorry. I understand. That feels not fair. I understand what that feels like. I remember when I was your age and my mom said this. Yeah. Right. Yeah. But, but this is a hard note and I'm not going to back down.
[00:45:35] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:45:36] And it's okay for you to feel disappointed. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:45:40] Nicole Runyon: Absolutely.
[00:45:41] Casey O'Roarty: Okay. This is so, I love all of this, Nicole. This is so powerful. So for parents that are listening who are recognizing themselves in this conversation, maybe they've been overindulging or rescuing, or hovering or just kind of holding a a space, an environment that is too small or toxic.
[00:46:01] What's one concrete shift that they can make starting today that'll have. Biggest impact that will have an impact, maybe not the biggest, right? Mm-hmm. But that will have an impact on their kiddo's wellbeing and mental health. Um,
[00:46:17] Nicole Runyon: allowing for natural consequences. So that's going to look different at every age.
[00:46:23] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm. But
[00:46:23] Nicole Runyon: a good example, 'cause this is so common, is if your kid is school age, and we, we know all the kids have phones at school and they're always calling home, or they're texting home during the school day and they forgot. Their lunch or they forgot their homework, or they have soccer practice after school and they forgot their cleats and mom or dad, can you bring me this thing that I forgot to the school?
[00:46:45] Mm-hmm. And what do parents today do? Because most parents are working from home and they're flexible. They run the thing up to the school, right? Mm-hmm. That's the rescuing. And so allowing for what's called the natural consequence of, no. I'm sorry. I'm not going to bring you your homework. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, that might be pretty painful for you.
[00:47:04] Your teacher might come down hard on you, but that's something you're going to have to experience, right? Yeah. Yeah. Because two things will happen. One is the chances are they won't forget their homework again, uh, because that won't feel good and they won't like it very much. And two, they learn how to.
[00:47:20] Make a mistake. Yeah. How to fail, how to fall down and get themselves up and problem solve. Yeah. And if they're a sweet talker, maybe they could talk their teacher into letting this one go, right? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. That's a, that's a skill too. Oldest. That's my oldest skill. He is so good at it. And, uh, you know, we let him do it out in the world.
[00:47:37] So, um, yeah. We need to allow for them to experience these things so that they can. Find themselves. Yeah. And they can figure out and tolerate, right. Tolerate that discomfort for failure. It's so important.
[00:47:51] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. And if forgetting homework is like chronic, then the problem to solve is. How are you helping them?
[00:47:59] How are they learning the skills that they need to make sure the homework's in the backpack before they walk out the door? So talking about routines and agreements, you know, fast forward and last summer my, I told talked about this on the pod, but so my son decided to take an online calculus two class, college level, and.
[00:48:22] Oh my gosh. He very quickly regretted the choice and was in so much distress. And I mean, Nicole, I was like, oh my God, here's 4-year-old. Ian has returned the meltdowns that he was having over this class, and I remember saying to him, well, maybe this class isn't even about getting the credits. For calculus two, maybe this class is about teaching you on a new level how to be with discouragement that doesn't include you tearing apart your notebook.
[00:48:59] Mm-hmm. Like maybe that's the gift of this class. And I remember, I mean, he wasn't like, thanks mom. Not his favorite message, but, you know, I mean, it, it landed, you know, it landed for him and, and again, I'm just planting seeds. I'm just planting seeds. I want my kids to recognize that not all challenges are what they appear at the surface.
[00:49:22] That there's op always opportunity to grow and to learn. And you know, at this point, he is 19, he's 20. I'm not, nobody's swooping in to rescue him. So he signed up for the class, it was paid for, you know.
[00:49:35] Nicole Runyon: Yeah.
[00:49:36] Casey O'Roarty: How's it gonna make it work? Right. That's right. I believe in you. I, you know, and that's, I think, something that can be really useful as well as we're, you know, being with our kids' distress is when we can be with it.
[00:49:50] We're also sending the message of, I know you can be with this. You can do it. That's right. I know you can get to the other side of it and then it becomes. One more experience for the back pocket for them to say, oh yeah, I felt this way before and it didn't last forever. Yes. Yeah. Yes, yes. A hundred percent.
[00:50:07] So good Natural consequences. What that means if you're thinking, well, how do I create a natural consequence for this thing or for that thing you, it's not something you create. No. Let it happen. It's something you get out of the way so that it can. Happen and you get to just love and trust them through it.
[00:50:27] Uh, well, is there anything else, Nicole, before we close that you would like to make sure you share with listeners?
[00:50:33] Nicole Runyon: Um, I just, I love that we're so aligned in, in so many of the things that we're talking about, and I really appreciate that you, uh, allowed me to come and talk today. So thank you. Yeah, me
[00:50:45] Casey O'Roarty: too.
[00:50:45] I'm so glad that you came. This is all really useful. A question that I ask all of my guests that I close with is, what does joyful courage mean to you in the context of. Distress tolerance for parents.
[00:50:59] Nicole Runyon: I love that you ask that question because when I saw it, I, I really had to pause and think about the title of your podcast.
[00:51:05] And, and I, I really love it because what it means to me is that courage is about doing hard things, right? Putting yourself out there, making yourself uncomfortable. And we've talked a lot about that and how important that is to, for our kids and how important it's for us parents to do. Um, but what's on the other side of that?
[00:51:26] Is joy. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And what I've learned in my life so far from having challenges and going through stuff is that is what creates happiness.
[00:51:37] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:51:38] Nicole Runyon: It's the journey. It's the, it's the thing that you have to contend with and work through and get to the other side of, and then you get to look back at yourself and say, wow.
[00:51:48] Look at me. I got through that. And yes, I can, and I'm capable and I trust myself that I'm gonna get through the next thing too. And that is what makes us happy and joyful.
[00:51:59] Casey O'Roarty: Mm.
[00:52:00] Nicole Runyon: And I think our culture is so focused on dopamine and being happy through that. And I, I find that like that's the best dopamine there is, is to get to the other side of heart.
[00:52:12] Casey O'Roarty: Mm, absolutely. Where can people find you and follow your work?
[00:52:16] Nicole Runyon: So my website's, nicole runyon.com. Uh, there is a tab on there that says my book if, uh, anyone wants to order it, and I'm on Instagram and Facebook at I Generation Mental Health and on LinkedIn as Nicole Reon. Awesome. I'll
[00:52:30] Casey O'Roarty: make sure all those links are in the show notes, including.
[00:52:34] Nicole's book. Thank you so much for hanging out with me today. This was so great. Thank you. It was lovely.
[00:52:45] Thank you so much for listening. Thank you to my Sprout partners, Julietta and Alana. Thank you, Danielle, for supporting with. The show notes as well as Chris Mann and the team at Pod Shaper for all the support with getting the show out there and making it sound good. As I mentioned, sharing is caring. If you're willing to pass on this episode to others or take a few minutes to rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, it helps other parents find this useful content.
[00:53:12] Be sure to check out what we have going on for parents of kids. Of all ages and sign up for our newsletter to stay [email protected]. I see you doing all the things. I believe in you. See you next time.