Eps 637: Dr. Jared Horvath-EdTech Harms Learning

“Recognizing that pushing back, you’re gonna be the tall poppy in Australia, that’s what we call you if you stand out above the crowd, you’re a tall poppy and you’re gonna get cut down in Australia, everyone has to be the same. So it takes courage to stand up and say, 99% of this world is using tech for everything. I’m not gonna do it, or I’m not gonna let my kid do it. The joyful then comes from the recognition that your decision to do that will make them smarter, we’ll make them stronger, we’ll make them more adaptable. All these things that work businesses are saying we’re looking for in kids. They’re not saying we want tech skills. They’re saying we want kids who can think on the fly. We want creativity. Yeah, we want you develop that off the screen. So it’s gonna be scary as heck, but congratulations. That’s the right move.”

– Dr. Jared Cooney Horvath

Resources mentioned:

Books:

• The Digital Delusion: How Classroom Technology Harms Our Kids’ Learning and How to Help Them Thrive Again by Dr. Jared Cooney Horvath
• The Anxious Generation by Jonathan Haidt (referenced)
• Works by Jean Twenge (referenced – she has a book with “10 rules for raising kids in a tech world”)
• Works by Neil Postman (referenced as important thinker on technology)

Dr. Horvath’s Resources:

• YouTube channel: Jared Cooney Horvath (learning videos posted every couple weeks)
• Website: lmeglobe.net (LME Global – stores all his writing, movies, video clips)
• Available on Amazon: The Digital Delusion

Research Tools/Programs:

• The Learning Blueprint (international award-winning program created by Dr. Horvath)
• LME Global (organization directed by Dr. Horvath)

Transcription

[00:00:00] Casey O'Roarty: Welcome, welcome, welcome to the Joyful Courage Podcast. This is a place where parents of tweens and teens come to find inspiration, information, and encouragement in the messy terrain of adolescents. This season of parenting is no joke, and while the details of what we're all moving through might be slightly different, we are indeed having a very collective experience.
[00:00:30] This is a space where we center building, relationship, nurturing life skills, and leaning into our own personal growth and man. The opportunities abound, right. My name is Casey Ody. I am a parent coach, positive discipline lead trainer, and captain of the adolescent ship over at Sprout Bowl. I'm also a speaker and a published author.
[00:00:53] I've been working with parents and families for over 20 years and continue to navigate my own experience of being a mom with my two young adult kids. I'm so honored that you're here and listening. Please give back to the podcast by sharing it with friends or on social media rate and review us on Apple or Spotify.
[00:01:13] Word of mouth is how we grow. Thank you so, so much. Enjoy the show. Hey friends, I am just jumping in here Before we dig into this week's interview with a check-in and some news. First of all, you probably notice that I didn't put out a show last Thursday. So after 10 years of podcasting and content creating, I'm letting go of the second show each week and just we'll be showing up with one new show for you.
[00:01:45] Sometimes there'll be solo shows, sometimes interviews, sometimes a combination of the two. So why am I doing this? Well, just like I talked about last week on the pod, and also, gosh, remember last spring when I was like, I'm rebranding. I'm gonna do it all different and blah, blah, blah. And it kind of just kept doing the same thing.
[00:02:08] So I mentioned last week, I am walking. In the question of what do I wanna create, right? What do I wanna create in my relationships, in my work? And when I take a look at the investment, creating two shows a week requires of me both time and the money spent to put it out for you. I'm realizing that it's outta balance.
[00:02:33] I love creating podcasts. I love creating episodes for you. I love connecting with people in the space of supporting parents of families with teens, and bringing their wisdom to the show. And what I'm being called to do right now is to free up time so, and money actually, so that I can be more available to my coaching clients and my living joyful courage inner Circle members.
[00:03:01] You may have also noticed that this show is coming out on a Tuesday rather than Monday, so this is the other shift that I'm making with the podcast. The release date for episodes is now going to be tucked a little further into the week. This gives you a chance to move through your Monday and have something to look forward to on Tuesdays.
[00:03:22] And it gives me a chance to get any last minute pieces in place without having to cover it over the weekend. So that's a great win-win. It's so important to me that I'm walking my talk and I am talking about being in the creation of what we want. So I get to do that. I want ease. The three words for 2026 that I'm playing with actually are trust, alignment, and joy.
[00:03:51] And this move with my work allows me to really live into those qualities. I get to trust that you aren't going anywhere because I'm changing things up. I get to trust that this is the right move for me and my business as I take inspired action to create more abundance and impact with my work. This feels aligned with who I am right now, my messaging and what I want more of in my life.
[00:04:17] I'm creating alignment with what I do and how I'm doing it, and I know this because of the relief that this move is giving to me, that this move is aligned with what I wanna create. And finally it brings me joy. It's so much work to put two shows out a week, and there were times when I started to feel resentment about creating the podcast, which you know, Bo resentment is a joy killer.
[00:04:46] And my work is joyful courage. It brings me joy to create for you, and I am grateful to create the flexibility to change it up, to work better for me, which in turn means I'll create better things for you. So yes, this move is absolutely about trust and alignment and joy. And 2026. And speaking of last week's show, have you taken the time to listen to it, letting go of control and correction and moving into connection and creation?
[00:05:19] Yes. Just know that I am following the practices shared during the episode every day imperfectly. I had a peak experience just last week in one of my relationships that knocked me off my game. And when I look at the situation from the outside, I see how deeply insecurity affects me and how easy it is for me to slide into a reaction that only serves to make things worse.
[00:05:50] I react. From insecurity in a way that creates more insecurity and more disconnection. So I'm gonna keep doing the work and I'm gonna keep bringing it up here on the pod because this is an ongoing practice and I know I'm not alone in it. Right? We've gotta talk about this stuff. We've gotta talk about what we're creating.
[00:06:11] We're always creating, we're either intentional about it or unintentional about it. And I am 2026 all about intentionality. This week's interview that you're about to hear is really interesting, and I think you'll appreciate it. It's all about tech in schools and tech and education, and I wonder if as you listen and you experience any kind of emotional response to what my guest is bringing to the conversation and just kind of a broader focus around, you know, what the last few decades have done to specifically public education, but really all education.
[00:06:52] You know, I know for me in the interview process, I remember feeling a little bit of hopelessness. I remember feeling some powerlessness, and I just really encourage you to come back to like, okay, so here's how this is making me feel. What do I wanna create? Right, because something is gonna come up for you based on what you hear, and when you ask yourself, okay, what am I doing with this information?
[00:07:16] What do I wanna create? You might just be. Surprised by the inspired action, whether it's a small step or a small conversation, or a bigger step and a bigger conversation that comes to life for you when you stay in that head space of what do I wanna create? I appreciate you each and every one of you.
[00:07:37] Thank you for sticking with me through all the twists and turns of my work and this life that we are walking together. I will be back next week, next Tuesday, and if you wanna shoot me any feedback you can [email protected]. Quick reminder that open enrollment is happening right now for the Living Joyful Courage Inner Circle, so you can.
[00:08:01] Find more information about that program. We're kicking it off this year with the six week positive discipline for teens class, and then the rest of the year is really all about content and coaching and connection and relationship that supports you in integrating all the things that you've learned. So it's gonna be a powerful year there in the inner circle.
[00:08:20] I'd love for you to think about joining us. You can find out more at. Be s spreadable.com/ljc. Be S spreadable.com/ljc. Okay, again, I'll see you next week. Enjoy the show. Bye.
[00:08:38] Hey everybody, welcome back to the show. I'm really excited to introduce you to my guest today, Dr. Jared Cooney Horvath. Jared is a neuroscientist, educator and bestselling author who specializes in human learning and brain development. He earned his master's degree from Harvard University and his doctorate from the University of Melbourne, and has conducted research and taught at Harvard University, Harvard Medical School, and the University of Melbourne as the creator of the Learning Blueprint and International Award-winning program, and director of LME Global, Jared has worked with more than a thousand schools around the world.
[00:09:18] Helping educators understand how learning actually works. He is the author of seven books and has published over 50 research articles. That's a lot. That's a lot.
[00:09:30] Jared Cooney Horvath: We're up to 67 now, so I'm almost to the 70. Mark.
[00:09:34] Casey O'Roarty: What? His work, that's too many so good. His work has appeared in the New Yorker, the Atlantic, the Economist, Harvard Business Review and PBS's Nova Jared's latest book, the Digital Delusion, how Classroom Technology Harms Our Kids Learning and How to Help Them Thrive Again tackles what he calls the next battle after smartphones.
[00:09:56] In our conversation, we will be diving into six decades of research and showing how Ed Tech undermines learning, explore what's actually happening in our kids' brain when they learn through screens, and most importantly, discuss the concrete steps parents can take to push back. Against the oversaturation of technology in school.
[00:10:13] So listeners, if you've ever felt uneasy about how much screen-based learning your child is doing, and I know that you do because you tell me this all the time, this conversation will both validate your concerns and empower you to take action. So, hi Jared. Welcome to the podcast.
[00:10:30] Jared Cooney Horvath: I thank you so much for having me on and it, it's so hard to sit and listen to your bio.
[00:10:35] I'm just a dude. I'm a normal guy who just so happens to to know some stuff. So if I can help out, that's all I care about.
[00:10:42] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah, just a dude with a lot of information that is gonna be really useful to all of us. I'm really grateful that you're here. Thank you. I'd love to start with your journey into this work.
[00:10:53] So as I read in your bio, neuroscientists worked at Harvard, touched over a thousand schools globally. What led you specifically to focus on educational technology and its impact on learning?
[00:11:07] Jared Cooney Horvath: Yeah, I, so I started as a teacher, so teaching is all I ever cared about, but back when I was teaching, that was the decade of the brain.
[00:11:14] So everyone was brain this, brain that. Yeah. And I thought, oh, that's a really cool thing. Let me go learn that myself. And so I went to go get a, a degree in neuroscience thinking that would be like a year or two of my life. But that has now ballooned into about 18 years I've been stuck in academia. Wow.
[00:11:29] Uh, and, and, and it's horrible. It's, it's a black hole. I always tell teachers, you look like you're
[00:11:32] Casey O'Roarty: having a really bad time. I'm enjoying that. Don't
[00:11:37] Jared Cooney Horvath: get me wrong. I would, when it comes to work life, I always say the classroom is still the best. Yeah. So all the teachers that I work with who are like, I should go get a PhD, I'm like, no, no, no.
[00:11:46] The fun stuff is happening here. Unless you wanna spend a year writing an ethics proposal. Like we get really good at writing grant proposals. Mm-hmm. But you don't do as much work and you never get to work with kids as much. Um, but so my focus has always been on learning. So, um, as a neuroscientist, I focused on human learning.
[00:12:01] How does the brain work when it comes to memory attention? And over the last couple of decades, I've kind of split that off into, I have got degrees in ai, behavioral economics, psychology, you name it. The idea for me has been. If it concerns learning, can I synthesize that and then bring that back to the people who need it most?
[00:12:19] So I get to work primarily with teachers, parents, sometimes students, those are the best days. And say, look, if this is what learning is, what does that mean for our practice? What does that mean for me? Uh, running a class for me, being at home studying. Mm-hmm. So I, I call myself the giant translator. I, I bring the laboratory back to the classroom and say, here's how we can use this stuff.
[00:12:39] Casey O'Roarty: I love that. And I appreciate, you know, I feel like I'm doing similar kinds of work, working with parents, but really my work takes a stand for kids and for teenagers, right? Like working with the adult. So that they can be better for these kiddos. We need them. We need these kids to be fully formed. Whole human beings and our leaders, we need them
[00:13:02] Jared Cooney Horvath: now more than ever too.
[00:13:03] The world Inc. Easier. No. So now more than ever, we need them to be ready for this stuff.
[00:13:07] Casey O'Roarty: For sure. And when you started looking at the data on ed tech, what surprised you the most? Did your findings challenge any of the assumptions that you were holding yourself about Technology in education? Yeah.
[00:13:21] Jared Cooney Horvath: No, but believe it or not, it's one of those things, tech, it was never a big aspect of our work.
[00:13:27] And I always just said, so like I would used to teach a 36 hour master's program and for about 30 minutes we'd talk about tech and it was always towards the end. And the argument was, now that you understand learning, do you see why tech just isn't really good for learning? And everyone would be like, oh yeah, because of this, that, and the other.
[00:13:43] So I, to me, it was always just an obvious proposition. If you get how humans learn. There's no real space for ed tech in there, but I think it was really come COVID and I just genuinely never really thought more about it than that.
[00:13:57] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:13:57] Jared Cooney Horvath: But COVID, when everyone went digital and all the messaging started coming out, we're gonna personalize learning and we're gonna do all this.
[00:14:04] And I thought, okay, well this will be the death nail of tech because there was zero good evidence coming out of COVID. By all means, everything dropped during COVID. Any measure you care about got worse during COVID, kids learned less, memory went down. Performance gaps widened. Generational gaps widened.
[00:14:22] And so I thought, okay, that was tech's big moment in the sun. We are gonna prove we work. Everyone's gonna see, we don't work off, we go into the sunset. No COVID ended and all the schools kept the tech and in fact they doubled down. And now 88% of school districts in the US have one-to-one computing programs for students.
[00:14:43] Even after we just watched how poorly they performed when it came to learning.
[00:14:47] Casey O'Roarty: Is the one-to-one that you're talking about, like how they're using software like Canvas and those places where like community is online? Is that what you're talking about? Or what does that mean?
[00:14:58] Jared Cooney Horvath: So one-to-one are the districts where they give each kid a laptop.
[00:15:02] Okay, got it. Every kid gets a tool. So it's one kid, one laptop, off you go. Right. Technically they're still school owned, but realistically the kids take it home. They do whatever they want with it. Yeah. And uh, so that was when I decided, when, when schools kind of went that route, I said, okay. Time to get all this data together.
[00:15:18] Time to get all this evidence together and show people if you're not paying attention, here's the problems. And realistically, I think, so I wrote the book for parents. 'cause I think parents, I think we recognized it. We're the first ones to really be like, something's wrong here. Yeah. This isn't what education was supposed to be.
[00:15:33] Yeah. And I, I genuinely believe teachers recognize that too. By and large, it's the decision makers, it's the policy makers, it's the principals, it's the people who haven't stepped foot in a classroom in two decades who are the ones who are really tech gung-ho. And so I figured, all right, if we wanna change their minds, here's all the information we need as parents to go into a meeting and say, we need to change our thinking on this.
[00:15:56] So that's, that's the book came out of basically post COVID love affair with tech that everyone had. Yeah.
[00:16:02] Casey O'Roarty: Well that was such an interesting time and I really felt for educators and teachers at that point. I had been facilitating on Zoom and had some tools and skills, and it was fascinating hearing from the trenches because I have some friends that are teachers.
[00:16:18] I had one girlfriend. Who taught kindergarten through Zoom and she, she was just like, this is impossible. And, you know, I felt like, man, this is an opportunity. This could be a, a real big opportunity to totally overhaul. What is it, you know, this system that really isn't working. Pre COVID. Yeah. Yeah. And it was such a disappointment to see the aftermath of COVID and the lack of, I don't know, vision and creativity that those same decision makers, you know, and who and, and what an overwhelming, bizarre time period that was For sure.
[00:16:56] Just
[00:16:56] Jared Cooney Horvath: period across the board. Yeah. And I love it. A lot of people think when, so when I tell that story, a lot of people think, oh, so COVID is when it got bad for tech. And you say No, tech has always been bad. Believe it or not, the very first meta-analysis of tech was in 1962, so this is before internet.
[00:17:13] Back then they called it information computing technology. And it had a certain impact, which was not anywhere near where we wanted it to be. So we just deemed it a bad tool.
[00:17:21] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm. The
[00:17:22] Jared Cooney Horvath: latest meta-analysis on tech was done in 2025 last year. It has the exact same impact 60 years later. But now people are saying That's good enough.
[00:17:32] And I said, Hey. 60 years ago, we looked at this and scoffed and said, you better do a lot better than this if you wanna be in classrooms. Yet today, the exact same number, it doesn't matter that we have better software, better hardware, better internet, because of the way humans learn. The tool itself isn't gonna change.
[00:17:47] So it has the exact same impact and it ain't good. Yeah. People think, well, this is good enough for us. Yeah. And I just don't know. So you and you and I, and a lot of your listeners, I'm sure if we were in school in the nineties, if you graduated sometime in the nineties, you hit peak education. That was in terms of every score we have, that was the best, best literacy, best numeracy, best memory, best general iq.
[00:18:12] Everyone was flying.
[00:18:13] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm. It was
[00:18:14] Jared Cooney Horvath: right around 2002 to 2004 when we started to see a dip. Right around 2010 to 12, we saw a big decline and it's just been going down ever since.
[00:18:23] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. And
[00:18:23] Jared Cooney Horvath: one of the big impetus there, 2002, was when one to one program started in the us. Mm-hmm. In 2010 is when they expanded it to all, now all 50 states at some level had touched tech.
[00:18:34] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. And it
[00:18:34] Jared Cooney Horvath: was, you can just basically watch. The more we brought it into the classroom, the lower all these scores started to go.
[00:18:40] Casey O'Roarty: Well, and that reminds me of the graph that follows access to smartphones and adolescent mental health.
[00:18:48] Jared Cooney Horvath: It's exactly the same thing. Yeah. And that's why I love, I love height and um, um, who's the woman who wrote bad therapy?
[00:18:55] Um, I
[00:18:55] Casey O'Roarty: don't know, but I had Jean Twangy on Who? T just, yeah. She just came out with, uh, 10 rules for raising kids in a tech world or something like that. And yeah, as much as I love Jonathan, he's work, her book is the one and only book on tech for parents that feels. Like she's willing to say, here's what you do.
[00:19:19] And it's very, you gotta do this clear. And she doesn't spend a lot of time in, this is why it's such a shitty situation. She just gets right into the 10 rules. Yeah. And she came on the show too, and she was like, listen, if there's two rules that you can put into play, great. Do it. Do as many as you can. As many as fits.
[00:19:37] Because God, we really shit the bed, the adults, we, yeah. It's okay to swear on this podcast, by the way, Jared. No. Good, good. The more swearing, the better. But, but we really did not look downstream at all with smartphones, with, but I wonder too about equity and I wonder if there, and we don't need to dig too deep into this.
[00:19:58] But I wonder how much the one-to-one device option also was a movement towards trying to create more equity amongst kids. 'cause there were the kids that had means for a personal device versus the others. How does that play into this?
[00:20:14] Jared Cooney Horvath: No. So and that's, and that is the biggest, one of the biggest myths. So there are six big myths underpinning ed Tech.
[00:20:20] I put five in the book. This one I didn't put in just 'cause it. Kind of veers a little sideways. Mm-hmm. The discussion of equity didn't come in until about a decade after we started one-to-one programs. Okay. That's not where they started. I, I've liken it to the slinky. The guy who invented the slinky thought it would work in cars one day it fell down the stairs.
[00:20:37] He is like, Hey, I invented this to fall downstairs. No, you didn't. You just, somebody else told you that might be something it's good at. But the trick with equity is exactly that, is there's a probably the best thinker in our lifetime. He died in the nineties. His name was Neil Postman. Dude was an absolute stud.
[00:20:53] If you haven't read his stuff, read it. He said something a while ago that said, basically, if you assume any new technology is going to narrow gaps between anyone, then you have not been paying attention to history. Because the singular thing all technologies do is widen gaps and that's the only thing they can do.
[00:21:12] So he says, think of something like the vacuum cleaner already when we, uh, basic as the vacuum cleaner, you will have rich people who can now. Better vacuum cleaners and more peripherals, and they can do more with it. Mm-hmm. Then you'll have lessers who can only get the standard model, and then you have people who can't even afford it at all.
[00:21:29] So just by introducing the vacuum cleaner, you've already spread out wider all these different groups. So along comes tech with education and about 10 years into it, somebody said, Hey, this could be good for equity. What happened was someone invented what's called the mooc, a massive online open community.
[00:21:44] So that was one of the first online learning programs where what they do is they basically just film a dude from Harvard giving a lecture. They put it online, and now we said, look, some kid in Zimbabwe now has access to the best teachers in the world just like everyone else. Mm-hmm. And that was when the equity argument started.
[00:22:00] We said, wait, we could use tech to narrow gaps. Neil Postman Tech will never narrow gaps. It will only widen them. What happened when you look at the statistics of MOOCs and online learning, 85% of the people who graduate. Already have college degrees and 50% of the people who graduate already have higher degrees.
[00:22:20] So it's not that everyone is accessing them equally, it's that those who already know how to learn, who have already succeeded, can use this tool to succeed. Even more interesting. All the people dropping out are the people who can't learn from it. 'cause they never made it through a general education, not enough to develop the skills to learn from an online course.
[00:22:37] So what it ended up doing was it widened achievement gaps. Interesting. About by about 15% when you look at online learning. Oh my gosh. You know, so they, they say it. That's really interesting. But there's, yeah. Yeah. There's no data that it's actually, that's something that's gonna happen from this tool.
[00:23:00] Casey O'Roarty: So you are, you know, this six decades, all this work, all this research, all this data that you have moved through, collected it all says ed tech undermines learning. And so break it down for our listeners. What does that mean? That it's undermining, learning beyond just like creating gaps. Like give us some specifics.
[00:23:22] Jared Cooney Horvath: A very good rule of thumb when it comes to education. Everything works. You can learn from anything. You can learn from a book, you can learn from a shoe, you can learn from a ferret, you can learn from a tree. It doesn't matter. So people say, we can learn from technology. Of course we can, man, I learn from it every day.
[00:23:39] But when we compare that learning to what we would call more traditional analog educational methods, let's go talk with a teacher. Let's do a project. Let's write notes by hand. Instead of typing them, let's read a physical book. Instead of scrolling a PDF, anytime we compare digital to analog methods, analog methods way outperform digital.
[00:23:59] And so now we can start to say why. And there's no, there's no data anyone could ever use to say digital tools are doing better. It just doesn't exist. I've, I've touched basically everything that exists on it. It ain't there, but I always said that data doesn't really matter. Like in in, it doesn't change opinions.
[00:24:18] It, you could have data for a century and we've had it for half a century. No one cares. You can keep saying it. So I always say what really is gonna matter is the mechanism. If you have the data to show that it hurts, fine. But if you can prove to people exactly why it's never gonna get better, here's why it hurts, that's when you start making traction.
[00:24:36] So that's my favorite thing to do in this book is let's just look at mechanisms. So for example, one of the mechanisms, let's go back to reading. We know that if you read from hard copy versus a digital screen, you are always going to learn more, comprehend better. Sweet. Why? Well, it turns out human memory.
[00:24:52] A key aspect of our memory is space is spatial orientation. Where in space did an event occur where stuff happens becomes an an intimate part of the memory reform of that thing. And we can use that space later to access those memories. So I always kinda say it like this, like there was a video game I used to play growing up called Grand Theft Auto.
[00:25:11] So I don't know if any of y'all ever played that one. But rather than just being a straight line like Mario Brothers, it was a big open world and you could go anywhere you wanted. So to make sure you never got lost, the developers put a little map into the corner of the screen. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And it was there at all times.
[00:25:26] Your brain has that map and every time you learn something it becomes stamped with where did something happen?
[00:25:31] Casey O'Roarty: Meaning like, where were we physically in space when we learned that thing?
[00:25:35] Jared Cooney Horvath: Bingo. Where in a three dimensional location in space did that thing just happen? Okay, so if you go back to reading now, think of a book.
[00:25:41] This book until it burns into dust. The word characteristics will be halfway through left page, top left hand side. It ain't going nowhere. Every book has a clear, unchanging three-dimensional location, okay? Which means when we read it, that plays right into how memory works. So this is why, if you're an avid book reader, you'll know when you finish a book.
[00:25:59] You might not always remember verbatim every word you read, but you'll certainly know where in the book each event occurred. Like you can almost immediately flip to the action scene you wanna find, or some paragraph you're like, oh, that was right here. When we read on a screen, there is no three dimensional location.
[00:26:14] The exact same word will start at the bottom of the screen, go through the middle, pass out the top, and entire aspect of human memory gets dumped, and all of a sudden memory learning comprehension go down. And that's why if you've ever read online, you'll notice after about five minutes on average, it's like the brain is telling you, man, you're not getting any of this.
[00:26:32] So you just start skimming. And rather than reading, you just start looking for keywords and off you go. Again, that's not a problem with the software, that's not a problem with can we just design a better tool? Mm-hmm. That is a disconnect between how human memory works. And the only thing the machine can ever do for us, it doesn't have a location.
[00:26:50] So that's why I love, once you start getting into these mechanisms, then you don't just have to say, I have data that reading is better on books. You can tell people, here's why it's better for reading on books. And now that you have that knowledge, can you make a better decision as a teacher or as a principal?
[00:27:03] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. Well I know for me, like I love to read all of my sexy fantasy books that my daughter, my young adult daughter, turns me onto on a Kindle. It's no big deal. I can take it around with me, but if I'm reading, you know, a book for a future guest or one of my personal growth and a development when I'm reading something that really matters to me, I have to have the hard copy.
[00:27:27] I have to be able to underline. I don't think there's any rhyme or reason to how I highlight things, but that's okay. 'cause it's the act of it just, yeah, generates something as far as deepening my understanding. And so this. You know, this makes a lot of sense and I'm thinking about how many young kids, and you yourself, are a father of a real young kid.
[00:27:47] So I'm sure you're really, really paying attention to how much has been digitalized and is being put in front of very young kids. And then, you know, my kids 20 and almost 23, you know, we didn't overdo the tech. Looking back, would I do it differently? Yeah, for sure. I would've made some different choices had I known better.
[00:28:11] Yeah. But you know, they came into adolescence and were very familiar with technology and really demanding as they watched their peers, you know, seemingly quote everyone, right? Get access to smartphones and social media, like they're primed up. So. It's really so just like highlighting for all the listeners, it's, it's heartbreaking, you know?
[00:28:34] It's so, it's heartbreaking and it is so hard to navigate the, our kids' desire, and it starts to become this conversation around, oh, kids today, blah, blah, blah. Yeah. Kids today were raised going out to dinner and seeing everyone around them on screens. Yeah. So of course they're gonna get to an age where they're like, well, when's it my turn?
[00:28:53] When do I get to be like the rest of the world? And do this thing that I'm seeing everybody do like it makes sense and not
[00:29:00] Jared Cooney Horvath: pay attention to anyone around me.
[00:29:02] Casey O'Roarty: Right.
[00:29:03] Jared Cooney Horvath: We were talking about this the other day. There's a, so my baby girl's two and a half years old, so we're right in that sweet spot of if we go out, there's a chance we get a tantrum.
[00:29:12] Yeah. And you have two choices. You put a phone in front of her face, she will shut up immediately.
[00:29:17] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:29:18] Jared Cooney Horvath: Or you suck it up, you take her outside, you go, mom, yeah, you move it. I'm gonna put my dinner plate here. You let her have
[00:29:23] Casey O'Roarty: her emotion. You practice your own self-regulation. It's so rich, those tantrums, although relentless, I will say,
[00:29:29] Jared Cooney Horvath: and there re and there hard.
[00:29:31] And that's why you think, okay, there are times when in your head you're making that battles. Like, I know the easier route. Okay, let's take the hard route. And, but at the end of the day, we, we were talking, so in Australia there's a guy in the UK who's known as the behavioral czar. They hate him in the UK for some reason, but all he does is teach behavioral patterns to kids.
[00:29:52] They invite him down to Australia. Oh, Australia almost blew, they almost kicked him out. They almost tried to get rid of his visa.
[00:29:58] Casey O'Roarty: Oh,
[00:29:58] Jared Cooney Horvath: for the, so yeah. So he comes, I'm like, oh, what does this dude teach? I gotta follow this guy. Yeah. Here's the kind of stuff he teaches. How do kids line up to go to lunch? How do kids ask to go to the bathroom during class?
[00:30:09] How do kids hold hands during a fire drill when they go outside? I'm like, that's what everyone is scared of.
[00:30:14] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. But
[00:30:14] Jared Cooney Horvath: it makes sense is these behavioral things have to be taught. He makes a good point. He's like, you'll never learn to live at a dinner table unless you are forced to sit at a dinner table.
[00:30:25] Yeah. And feel uncomfortable for a little bit. Right. And sometimes you screw up and then sometimes you don't, and the next time you're a little bit better. He goes, the only way we can get through this stuff is to teach these behaviors. Yet people think that for some reason kids naturally have these things in them.
[00:30:38] Right. So what's happening is we're avoiding teaching the direct hard stuff. By offloading right onto screens so kids never end up learning them. Mm-hmm. So then they hit teenage years and we're like, why are you such a butthead at the dinner table? Because I literally have never had practice. Right, right.
[00:30:53] And it's, and that's when they, when they tried to kick 'em out of Australia. Just show me how scared some people are of rules and boundaries and consequences for kids. Yeah. Well like I know it is just a real fine line, but there's gotta be some there. It
[00:31:05] Casey O'Roarty: is. So interesting. I used to do a lot of training in schools and at the start of the school year we explicitly talk about teaching routines and practicing routines and practicing and talking about things like how it, how it feel.
[00:31:21] I used to work with elementary age teachers and like talking to kids about the wiggles that they have when they're supposed to be standing in line. What to do when you feel like that, like how to be with that and Yeah, so like it's a little behaviorist, behaviorism stuff. I think I, I, I can appreciate that.
[00:31:41] But also coupled with like, and the, you know, we talk, I talk about this all the time with teenagers, 'cause teenagers get into mischief and the parents wanna shut down the mischief. And I'm way more curious about, like, talk to me about the 10 minutes before this decision. Like what was going on for you and how are you navigating being part of a friend group and what does it feel like?
[00:32:02] When you don't wanna go along, but more than that, you want to belong and you want to save face. Like let's talk about solving that problem so that the decision making can can shift. So
[00:32:15] Jared Cooney Horvath: I love it. Yeah, and you're right. And look, behaviorism got a bad rap. It's real. It works, but it's not the whole story.
[00:32:22] Right, exactly. And I think some people got so afraid of it that they swung the pendulum as far as they could the other way. And it's like, no, there's bits and bobs of each that we've gotta kind of tap into. Yeah, for sure. I think you made a good. The idea of routine is hilarious. I think the people who hate behavioral routines at school, they hate it because they're like, you're making my kid an OT automaton.
[00:32:40] Mm-hmm. I want my kid to be a unique and auto, but those are the same exact people who say, you need to teach my kids tech because they need to get a job in the future. Right. I'm like, what do you think an OT automaton is? It's taking a 6-year-old and training them for a job at 36 on a computer that is anau.
[00:32:56] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. Which by way teaching kids how to line up to go
[00:32:57] Jared Cooney Horvath: to the bathroom.
[00:32:58] Casey O'Roarty: Right.
[00:32:59] Jared Cooney Horvath: That ain't, that ain't stunting identity. That's just helping them. It's exist in their new you.
[00:33:03] Casey O'Roarty: It's just exactly. Creating systems so that you know, I mean, so they can grow. This is definitely another area that we could go off on.
[00:33:12] And as a parent educator and what, something that you just said, something that I hear from parents who are, are trying to, you know, tap into like, Hey, not sure about this and getting this feedback from schools around, well this is how they learn now. This is what we have to prepare them for. It kind of feels like the same mindset of I've, I do ha have heard from parents like, well, my kid is gonna need to be able to navigate having a smartphone.
[00:33:42] Mm-hmm. So why would I wanna micromanage him now? Mm-hmm. And my response to that, and I'm wondering if it's kind of a similar response to this, ed tech is their brains are not designed to be able to make sense of the psychology behind the smartphones. So while limits and guidelines and, you know, lack of access to a certain age, all of that is really important.
[00:34:12] And then inside of that space, the conversations are not, here's what I'm gonna do to you if you break the tech rule, but instead again. Let's talk about your screen time. Let's talk about how uncomfortable you feel when it, this is something that I did with my own kids. Like, wow, that's a lot of hours in one day.
[00:34:30] How does that feel to you? You know, when you see that number, I know. When I see that number, I feel like, oh God, that's too much. And so I wanna like develop the critical thinking around technology where in a world where there's no limits, there's also no conversation and, and development of, of their self-awareness and their critical thinking.
[00:34:51] And I'm wondering, yeah. You know, is that a piece that you all are finding? You know, because there is that idea that, you know, the world is only getting, well, we'll see, but so far pendulum has more tech swung into more tech. Yeah, more tech. And they're behind somehow if they're not savvy on tech. So there's two things that's the real thing
[00:35:13] Jared Cooney Horvath: to, to kind of recognize.
[00:35:14] There is one. Those people who think, because the world looks like this, we need to give kids recognition of that now. They mistake kids, uh, for little adults. Mm-hmm. They think children are many us no children are not small adults. They're just like us, but with small hands and they smell like Axe body spray.
[00:35:36] They're not even chemically, they're not biologically anything like us. So, and adolescent,
[00:35:42] Casey O'Roarty: we're talking about adolescences right now. Yeah.
[00:35:44] Jared Cooney Horvath: Go back. Some people treat six year olds like adults. Right, right, right. It's like no. Right, right, right. Our job has always been to raise them up into adulthood and in so doing, that's a recognition that we require structure.
[00:35:55] Mm-hmm. And what is structure? Nothing more than. Blocking out certain experiences you are not ready for. So that's whenever anyone's like, my kid's gotta be ready. The world is full of tech. They gotta be ready to use tech. I'm like, the world is full of cars. Yeah's a free rein. Yeah. You're gonna put your, your 6-year-old in the car.
[00:36:09] The world is full of drugs. You want your kids, let 'em go, man. World. Yeah. Good
[00:36:12] Casey O'Roarty: luck with that man.
[00:36:13] Jared Cooney Horvath: They're gonna have to cook dinner. Why don't you put 'em on the stove? Get it, get 'em going now. And they're like, that's stupid. They have to learn those skills. And I go, exactly. Scaffold it. Do you think that's any different when it comes to anything else, when it comes to learning?
[00:36:24] So that brings us into kind of the second point here is. The tools we have developed as adults to use, we developed them to do what's called offloading. Basically, we said, I am an expert. This tool is gonna help me produce a little bit easier by making the things I already know easier for me to do. Think about like statistics.
[00:36:45] I could crunch some numbers. It's gonna take me about two hours to do the stats. I could do it. I don't feel like doing it. So I use this tool to offload that ability. Does it in two seconds, we're good. The only reason it works is because I can vet it, is because I know stats so well. When this machine spits out our number, I can immediately go, yep, that's correct.
[00:37:04] Off we go. Or no, that's not even close. I must have typed in something wrong. Something's happening here. The ability to vet is what makes these tools useful for production.
[00:37:12] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:37:13] Jared Cooney Horvath: Kids are not experts. They do not have even the basic skills we're talking about. So when we use the same tools we use for offloading as experts to try and help novices learn how to become experts, they do not learn a thing.
[00:37:27] All they learn is how to type the most basic stuff in and let the machine do it for them. They don't know how to vet it, they don't know how the actual process works. So all they do is they basically learn how to copy and paste. Mm-hmm. So when people say, how do we prepare kids for a technological future, believe it or not.
[00:37:42] We've been doing it already. A generalized K through 12 education teaches kids how to adapt. Good rule of thumb. You teach a kid how to, uh, use a tool, they will be able to use that tool and no others. You teach a kid how to think and learn, they're gonna be able to use every tool.
[00:37:59] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm. So we
[00:38:00] Jared Cooney Horvath: have this data that's come out in 20, since 2013, the percentage of of time devoted to explicitly teaching computer and including computers in classes has gone up over 500% since 2013.
[00:38:12] Mm-hmm. In that time, the percentage of kids who are digitally literate has dropped 22%.
[00:38:18] Casey O'Roarty: What? Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. That's insane.
[00:38:21] Jared Cooney Horvath: Because people mistake digital literacy for using a tool. The more you use it, the more literate you become. No. Literacy is the recognition of patterns. Literacy is the ability to think through systems.
[00:38:33] How do we learn patterns in this systems Through a generalized. K through 12 education. We're not teaching kids history because we expect them to become historians. We're not teaching them English. 'cause we want them to all become writers. We're teaching them how to think through knowledge. Mm-hmm. To recognize patterns and adapt.
[00:38:50] Now when somebody says, here's a computer, can you use it mate? Gimme six months, I'll be fluent on this thing. But if you just spent the last six years teaching me this in lieu of all the other stuff we do in school, right. I won't be able to use this and I won't have the skills to be able to learn it myself.
[00:39:05] Yeah. So in the biggest irony we've ever found, the best way to prep kids for a digital future is to not put tech in schools. Keep schools general and broad. Those kids come out better at tech than kids who spend their whole life on it.
[00:39:21] Casey O'Roarty: And so like is it logical? So I'm hearing you say take tech out of school.
[00:39:26] So having like a computer science class.
[00:39:30] Jared Cooney Horvath: Mm-hmm. That's perfect. So that's, that's the curriculum versus pedagogy argument. And that's spot on.
[00:39:36] Casey O'Roarty: Okay.
[00:39:36] Jared Cooney Horvath: Curriculum is what we teach. Pedagogy is how we teach.
[00:39:40] Casey O'Roarty: Okay.
[00:39:40] Jared Cooney Horvath: Curriculum says, I think we need to teach kids coding, or I think we need to teach kids like
[00:39:45] Casey O'Roarty: spreadsheets or, you know, spread Excel.
[00:39:48] Jared Cooney Horvath: Yeah.
[00:39:48] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. Perfect.
[00:39:49] Jared Cooney Horvath: That's a curriculum problem. Sweet. Cool. That's something we want to teach through some weird linguistic alchemy. The argument we need to teach kids computer skills has morphed into, we need to teach all skills through a computer. Ah, yeah. Now you're talking pedagogy and now you cross the line.
[00:40:06] But that's what people think. We need to teach math using computers. We need to teach reading, using computers. No, let me teach math with what works best there. Let me teach English with what works best there. How will kids learn Excel? We have Excel class. Yeah, but that is not the same as, right. I always say it's like if you couldn't argue that schools need to teach kids how to drive a car.
[00:40:27] Sweet. Oh, I can see that. That's fine. You cannot argue that every class now needs to be taught inside of a car. It's like, no, you cross the line. That's, yeah, that's the curriculum. Pedagogy. Got it. But we did that with tech, unfortunately. Yeah. So one of the key things I always say to schools, and by the way, that's why I'm not anti-tech.
[00:40:44] I'm just pro learning. I got no problem with tech. I just don't think it's good for learning. Mm-hmm. Is get a computer lab, go back to having a computer lab or a computer cart. Because now what happens is right now every kid has a one-to-one. They have a computer right in front of them, so that becomes the default teacher just says, get out your computer.
[00:41:01] Kid goes, I'm just gonna type this on my computer. If instead you had a lab where now teachers have to sign out the lab and now they gotta get their kids up and they gotta walk 'em across school and they gotta sit 'em back down and no other teacher can use it while I'm here. Now tech becomes very deliberate once you put a little bit of friction between the decision to use it and the ability to use it.
[00:41:21] Now teachers have to think, is this really worth it? And kids have to think, is this really meaningful for me? Mm-hmm. And if it is, go for it. If it, if it's spreadsheet time, sign it up, get 'em out, go over that. There's where you do it, but you make it a little bit harder. That's how we get it out of all the other realms where it's like, that's not useful for math.
[00:41:36] Yeah. Yeah. And it's a waste of your time to do all this stuff.
[00:41:48] Casey O'Roarty: So I'm, I'm guessing, like me, many of the listeners hearing this might be having some mixed feelings. Right? So you're definitely validating what so many people I think, feel, and are sensing about what's happening in schools. I am guessing there's probably some anxiety about their own personal experience.
[00:42:12] Yeah. And maybe overwhelm around, okay, so what do we, what do we do? Right. So let's shift from the information that and the research. Yeah. Into some practicality. What do you recommend parents start to do when they wanna push back against this oversaturation of tech in schools? What do we, what can we do about it?
[00:42:33] Jared Cooney Horvath: So you've got two kind of aspects of this. One is what can we do for schools, or what can we do to try and change the context of school? The other is, what can I do at home with my kid?
[00:42:47] Casey O'Roarty: Right? Yeah.
[00:42:47] Jared Cooney Horvath: So if we're just thinking about what we can do with schools, the first thing I always say is, is you have to come with a coalition.
[00:42:53] Is, it absolutely sucks. But anytime one parent speaks up, they're labeled a nuisance parent and no one pays attention to them.
[00:43:00] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:43:01] Jared Cooney Horvath: But once you get a small coalition, and we, we, we learned this from fish and birds, any animal that flocks really, we, we, for a long time, researchers asked, how do schools of fish move in synchrony?
[00:43:12] How do they all know to go left at the exact same time or Right. And it turns out, if we're all going in one direction and one fish veers the other direction, nothing happens. If two fish go in the other direction, nothing really happens. But if three fish go in this direction. All of them are now going in that direction.
[00:43:28] Now, that's not a perfect analogy, but they found that it just takes a very small, typically less than 5% of the entire school, if they all decide to go one way, all 95% of the other ones are going that way too. Mm. So if you can, you don't need a coalition of every parent in your school, you need a small chunk of people.
[00:43:45] Now you start voicing concerns together. That's usually enough to start really moving the needle, and then people start to come along. So move your School of fish with a small group. Your first port of call when it comes to the tech stuff at school then is as a group, is ask for evidence, and that's where everything will collapse.
[00:44:03] All you have to do is say, can you please give me a basic audit? How often is my kid on a screen per day? How many hours per day? What programs do they use? What impact does that have on their learning? Now, that's basic. That's 1 0 1. That's the stuff that everyone should have in their pocket right now.
[00:44:20] Here you go. Most schools won't have any of that data. And once you recognize they don't have data, and once they recognize that they've been found out for not having data, that's when you can do an optout. And an OPTOUT basically says, cool, because you don't have data of impact and I have data of harm on this side.
[00:44:38] I would like to opt my child out of any non-essential digital technology. So if you have to take a test online, sweet. If you need tech to learn Excel, sweet. Otherwise let's get back to analog methods then.
[00:44:48] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. And
[00:44:49] Jared Cooney Horvath: it, it sounds ang simple. Grab a group, ask for evidence, ask for an optout. But that works because, well, and it's such an interrupt.
[00:44:58] Casey O'Roarty: Like I am a former teacher, former classroom teacher, elementary. Yeah. And one of my students was Jehovah's Witness and her parents came in the very first day. I mean, they didn't come with a coalition, but it was two of 'em. So it kind of felt that way to explain to me just, you know, what about their faith and about what their child would be opting out of and.
[00:45:18] You know that like, unfortunately what feels like smooth in a classroom is when all the kids are doing the same thing. And so what a powerful way to interrupt something like this oversaturation by just simply saying, okay, well we're just not gonna do that. Yeah, yeah. We're opting out of that and I think there's gonna be discomfort in, you know, it's, it's an uncomfortable interruption and we have to take a stand for our kids.
[00:45:51] All
[00:45:52] Jared Cooney Horvath: kids. And if you do that at the level of, say, the board of education or the superintendent, even the principal, most of the time they're gonna say, no, you can't. But if you do that at the level of the teacher, the teachers almost invariably will say, okay, yes, I respect to that. And there was a school I worked with in Australia that had to do that.
[00:46:10] They had about, uh, 12 kids, wasn't a huge school. So it was like 12 kids would probably be like 10% say.
[00:46:16] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:46:16] Jared Cooney Horvath: Just opt out of tech. And so now all the teachers had to do two things. They had to do analog versions and digital versions of everything. And within a month they realized the analog versions take more time.
[00:46:29] But they are so much better. The teachers liked what they were building themselves. They liked the feedback they were forced to give. The students using the analog were doing better than the digital kids. After about a month, they basically scrapped the digital and said, well shoot, if I'm doing this for 12 people, I'm gonna do it for all the people.
[00:46:43] Yeah. And it just kind of became an analog school by default. And lo and behold, kids started learning more. All of a sudden they started interacting on the playground again. Everyone's like, who are these kids? They were always there. We just kept shoving them in front of a tool that's not good for learning.
[00:46:57] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah,
[00:46:58] Jared Cooney Horvath: and I, I think, and I hate to go back to to a mechanism, but I think this is a big one for our listeners too. For your listeners, apologies. We have evolved for 150,000 years to have a very specific learning mechanism in our system, and one key aspect of that is what's called empathy. So empathy, we've all heard the term, but most people mistake what it is People think empathy is like an emotion.
[00:47:22] I have empathy. I am empathetic. No one has empathy. No one is empathetic. Empathy is not a personal thing. Empathy by its very definition is transpersonal. What empathy is, is when two pairs of biology come together, they can begin to resonate in a very real sense. If, if I'm empathizing with another human being, our heart rates will start to beat.
[00:47:43] At the same time, we will start to breathe at the same rate. We will start to blink in sync. If I could look at our brains, our brains start to fire off almost identically. In a very real sense, when you empathize, you're not thinking with a person. You are thinking like that per, you are that person in that moment.
[00:47:59] So by its definition, empathy requires two sets of biology, and one of the best things we have for learning, it's got an effect size of 0.68, which that's really powerful for learning, is an empathetic relationship between a kid and his teacher.
[00:48:13] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm. When
[00:48:14] Jared Cooney Horvath: you resonate with your teacher, you, you don't learn from them in the moment.
[00:48:18] You are thinking like them, you are them. All the information just as part of you now. So go back. If one of the key aspects of learning we have spent hundreds of thousands of years evolving is resonance with other human beings. That means we are meant to learn from other human beings. Mm-hmm. Bring in a screen even for a little bit, there is no biology in a screen.
[00:48:38] So already I cannot resonate with a screen and it disconnects me from you. If your screen and my screen are not showing the exact same thing at the exact same moment, there is no way our biology can synchronize either. Empathy is gone. So if empathy is a key driver of learning, and this tool literally cannot build empathy, but it can cut it in half, we start to see another one of those mechanisms.
[00:49:00] Why wouldn't you go analog? Even a small school with 12 kids starts to realize, hey, they're learning more. Yeah. Because they're with you. Hey, they're growing a little bit faster than everyone else. They're getting my ideas better because they're here now. And that is we've, that's how we've been built to learn.
[00:49:15] Trying to pretend that's not so, we're just hurting them.
[00:49:18] Casey O'Roarty: Jared, you're just reminding me how much I dig neuroscientists. Like I just love how exciting it is for you all to geek out on stuff like this. And it's so interesting 'cause it's just not common knowledge. It's not the way the average person is, but people don't thinking about life.
[00:49:36] Yeah, totally. So I'm thinking about, a lot of people like to listen to the show in their car, right? And so I'm, I wanna speak to the person that is sitting in their car right now listening to this podcast and thinking about their seventh grader or their 10th grader who comes home every day and all their homework, schoolwork, if they have any.
[00:49:58] Again, another side combo, um, is on their Chromebook or whatever the device is that they've been given or that they use. They're taking tests on screens. What's one, you know, we're gonna bring this now to parent between parent and child. What's a concrete conversation? That we can have with their kiddo tonight.
[00:50:20] That would be helpful. Especially considering, like I already mentioned, these are kids that have been saturated by technology from the get. How do we kind of, not hook them, but engage them into a critical mindset around what feels very much like an extension of them? Yeah. And
[00:50:40] Jared Cooney Horvath: so here's, it's really hard.
[00:50:43] Uh, no, I love it. One of the things I always tell parents and students too, if, when students say, what's the best study technique? I say, buy a printer. If you do nothing else different with your life, but you just print out your schoolwork, your readings, you're gonna learn better. You're gonna do better.
[00:50:57] Okay. If it's a worksheet, if it's a reading, do it. So now we can go go back to what can we talk with our kids about? One of the coolest things I've learned working with students in my time is a concept called metacognition. Metacognition basically is the ability to control your own learning, to think about your own thinking.
[00:51:14] You are one step. Love it above your own processes, feeding down, driving those processes yourself. It's pure agency. What do kids need when it comes to metacognition and learning for a long time? And if you look at most of the textbooks, it'll say two things. Strategies, what do I do? And context. A realm within which to think about it.
[00:51:34] Where someone asks me, Hey, what are you doing? Hey, why are you doing that? So we taught that for years. None of my kids ever got any better at metacognition. Like we did this survey of kids, uh, freshman year at University of Melbourne, incoming freshmen. Can you separate good study strategies from bad study strategies?
[00:51:52] 90% could you track 'em throughout the year? 10% of kids actually did 'em. 90% knew what to do. No one was actually doing it. We're like, what the hell is going on? Sounds like
[00:52:00] Casey O'Roarty: parenting. Sounds like parenting teenagers, Jared. Like, we know what to do. And then we're in the moment and. Are we doing? Are we aware that like, I love this 'cause I'm so into develop I, the language I use is just developing the outside observer, developing our ability to see ourselves in the moment.
[00:52:19] Create a little bit of space and then we have room to make a choice versus reactive.
[00:52:25] Jared Cooney Horvath: Now where does that choice come from? So that was our third wheel and I see if you see something similar here. Okay. Was we saw a change when we started teaching kids why things happen. Instead of just saying, here's a good study technique, we'd say, here's how memory works now.
[00:52:43] Can you come up with a good study technique? And they, they'd name that one. He'd be like, there you go. Here's how attention. Once they knew why that was, when they were more likely to start making the decisions that were more meaningful. Mechanism was the all important thing for us. And so I think if you're a parent going to talk to your kids now.
[00:53:01] Maybe start with mechanism. Maybe start with something you've learned here today. Say, Hey, did you know when it comes to reading X, Y, Z? Or when it comes to multitasking, go deep into some sort of explanation about why something might be important, and then step back and say, do you want to try and experiment with me?
[00:53:18] So by all means, if kids feel like you're doing something to them, yeah, you got teenagers, you know how far that's gonna go.
[00:53:24] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:53:25] Jared Cooney Horvath: But if kids feel like you're doing something with them, if they feel like they have the agency over it, then it gets a little cool. So that's where you could run a little in-house experiment.
[00:53:33] Say, you know what? Cool for the next week, what if we try something? Let's just print all your homework. Let's just print all your readings. You still have the computer for. Minecraft, whatever the heck else you do in your home, that's all up to you. But when it comes to schoolwork, let's just try and separate it from the screen and see what happens.
[00:53:48] And just for one week, track the data together. How did we do this week? How did I feel this week? Did you, how many readings did you have? Maybe give 'em a little quiz or something. Ah, do you remember what you learned this week? And I think if you just turn it into an experiment, something a little bit more, let's try something together, that's how you might be able to start pulling them off the screen, at least for the, the learning stuff,
[00:54:09] Casey O'Roarty: right?
[00:54:09] And if
[00:54:09] Jared Cooney Horvath: they, if they, and again, it's the ma, if we tell them, you learn better from hard copy versus digital, they'll go, cool. They can tell you that They'll all still read digital,
[00:54:17] Casey O'Roarty: right? But once
[00:54:18] Jared Cooney Horvath: you tell them, because reading works like this, which one do you think you're gonna work better on? Paper? Mm-hmm.
[00:54:23] Why don't we try paper for a week to see what the hell happens?
[00:54:26] Casey O'Roarty: So something I wanna say about that. Such a powerful conversation. And parents, if you are in an active power struggle around screens and technology. And you come at your kiddos saying like, Hey, let's talk about this thing. Let's try and experiment.
[00:54:44] And you find your kids being like, uh, no thanks. Not interested. The work to do, the pre-work to do is really recognizing and acknowledging, Hey, we've been in this massive power struggle. I've been really controlling and judgmental about your screen use and your technology and own it. I'm sorry about that.
[00:55:04] Here's what I'm doing to help myself. So first, do that work to kind of break down what so many of us find ourselves in around technology, which is a power struggle, right? Where there's so many families that I work with where their kids will not even let their parents into a conversation about technology.
[00:55:23] So clean that up and then have this invitation. I love this invitation of, of let's ex, let's just experiment with it. And if your kiddo has goals around. You know what they wanna be learning what they wanna be doing, the doors they wanna keep open as they move through high school and into higher education.
[00:55:43] Tie it to that. Yeah. Right? Like you set yourself apart, kiddo of mine. When you learn in a way that's actually conducive to the way that, that your brain is wired and like, let's give you an edge. How does that sound? Right. So kind of enticing them into it because. You know, there's just so, I mean there's, so I wouldn't, I mean, I don't know if discouraged is the right word, but I think the conversations have gotten so toxic with teens specifically.
[00:56:13] Yeah. And technology that they're just over it. You know, they're just like, you don't, this isn't about wellbeing, this ISN about you wanting to control me and watch this. You can't, you know, so, yeah. So I would just offer that,
[00:56:27] Jared Cooney Horvath: and that's an interesting angle too, the, the cognitive edge. We recognize that. So I work, when I have to do freshman seminar.
[00:56:35] I used to work at Uni Mel freshmen, we, so the way school works in Australia is, depending on what you did in high school, you are only allowed to apply to certain schools. And Uni Mel was the top one. So they were giving me 500 of the best kids in the country every year. Within a week, I could tell you which kids went to the tech free schools and which didn't.
[00:56:55] And I always knew that those were the ones who were gonna succeed. They are so much more present, they're so much more firing. And those are the ones that I'd bring into honors programs. At almost immediately I'd be like, you're here. The rest is still me fighting through this fog of like, what have you been doing for the last 12 years?
[00:57:10] I
[00:57:10] Casey O'Roarty: mean, let's just pause there. Listeners, if you're sitting there like, I don't really know. I don't really buy it. I mean, we're hearing from the front lines of these, you know, with the young adults and what I just heard you say, Jared, is you could see who came up in a tech free school and who didn't. Yeah.
[00:57:28] And judging from that, you knew who was gonna be successful. And it was those kids with less time on learning through screens. And I think that that is just so important to highlight. So important to highlight. So. All right, listeners, recognizing that you might feel a little discouraged right now. This is a lot.
[00:57:51] The system is big. Yes, and it's real. So, Jared, what gives you hope? What would you say to parents who are thinking, but I am just one person or just one family? What difference can I make you?
[00:58:06] Jared Cooney Horvath: You don't have to make a difference outside of your family. Love that. If you're one parent, love that and you got one kid.
[00:58:11] Love that. Congratulations. We, our generation, I don't know why we were taught to live big. If you're not working 80 hour days, you're not good enough. If you're not on the best HBO show, you're not a good actor. Well, you were always taught to live huge. We can move those boomers
[00:58:29] Casey O'Roarty: that raised us. Damn them.
[00:58:31] They just,
[00:58:31] Jared Cooney Horvath: they force it. Like I, so with my daughter, the only thing I want for my daughter is to live. If she wants to live big go, I want her to live incredibly small. I, we are moving to Italy next year. We're gonna live, uh, in a village outside of Luca. And if she spends the rest of her life there, God bless her.
[00:58:48] Because I'm starting to realize the only thing you can change is your own action, your own thinking. And the only thing you really care about are the family, the people around you. That's it. You change your kid. Sweet. Let the rest of the school go. Flippy floppy. They'll, but watch, you'll, you'll make more change than you think.
[00:59:05] Mm-hmm. But don't try and think beyond just your kid. Otherwise you'll get overwhelmed and it ain't worth it.
[00:59:10] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. And
[00:59:11] Jared Cooney Horvath: I, I, I want to share this. I was with kids. This, this is my one, like shining hope. So whenever I have to teach tech with kids, I always start exactly what you're saying is like, here comes an old man about to talk about tech.
[00:59:23] So right now you're gonna tune out. Yeah. Here's the thing y'all don't recognize as kids, your generation uses tech. My generation invented tech. You guys are really good at playing with our trash, basically. So these tools represent our thinking way more than they represent yours. And every time you engage with it, you're basically just following my instructions.
[00:59:45] Why would you want to do that? Like, there's nothing else about us that you like, you hate our clothes, you hate our music, you hate our movies, but you love our tech. Mm-hmm. Once you start to recognize that this ain't you, this is me making you into something that you never wanted, then maybe you'll recognize.
[01:00:00] Yeah. I have a little bit more insight into this than you might think. I'm not like, I don't use as much as you, but it's because we invented this. It's, it's our tool. Yeah. And, and I, and obvious say with a, a small, a group of small kids recently and a third grader said. Someone was talking about AI and a third grader said, oh, that's a boomer's toy.
[01:00:19] I'm like, yes. That was, that was the shining light. That was the moment when I thought maybe, maybe we have a chance here if young kids think of tech as boomer toys and they're kind of weirded out, like, cringe worthy, uhhuh brilliant. Yeah. That means they're figuring out that they didn't have any say in this.
[01:00:37] Yeah. Why would they want to go so deep into it?
[01:00:40] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. Yeah. And language that I, well, first of all, I would be sure to tell that third grader, by the way, I am Gen X. I am not a boomer. I'm noter. Thank you very much. Um, but also something that I have said to my own kids and encourage parents to kind of put in their back pocket is when we are talking about using technology.
[01:01:02] Like truly be a user of technology, don't be used by technology. And I think yeah, you know, with the endless scrolling and, and, and binge watching, there's so many places where we are being used by technology and just to grow their awareness around that relationship, I think is really powerful. I love that.
[01:01:21] Where can parents find you and learn more about your work and find your book?
[01:01:26] Jared Cooney Horvath: Yes. So the book is The Digital Delusion you can find on Amazon. If you just look up Digital Delusion, it'll pop up. And, uh, I have a YouTube channel too called Jared Cooney Horvath, where I just put up learning videos every couple weeks.
[01:01:38] Okay. So if you wanna just kind of stay up to date on what's a good learning technique, what's the research saying? Just there's another kind of resource for you there. Awesome. Um, and then we, ooh, we have a, a, a website too called lme global.net. So that was Learning Made Easy LME Global. Um, and there's where we, we store all my writing and stuff too.
[01:01:58] Great. And so there's movies. Video clips, anything you want is kind of just floating around there.
[01:02:03] Casey O'Roarty: Okay, perfect. We'll make sure that those, uh, links are in the show notes and I end every episode with the same question. Hopefully I sent you this question so it's not the first time you're hearing episode, it's not a big deal.
[01:02:15] I believe in you. What does joyful courage mean to you? Especially in the context of this like tech saturated world that we're both raising our kids in,
[01:02:26] Jared Cooney Horvath: recognizing that pushing back, you're gonna be the, the tall poppy in Australia, that's what we call you. If, if you stand out above the crowd, you're a tall poppy and you're gonna get cut down In Australia, everyone has to be the same.
[01:02:38] Mm-hmm. So it takes courage to stand up and say, 99% of this world is using tech for everything. I'm not gonna do it, or I'm not gonna let my kid do it.
[01:02:47] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[01:02:47] Jared Cooney Horvath: The joyful then comes from the recognition that your decision to do that. We'll make them smarter, we'll make them stronger, we'll make them more adaptable.
[01:02:56] All these things that work businesses are saying we're looking for in kids. They're not saying we want tech skills. They're saying We want kids who can think on the fly. We want creativity. We want you develop that off the screen. Yes. So it's gonna be scary as heck, but congratulations. That's the right move.
[01:03:13] Casey O'Roarty: Beautiful. Thank you so much, Jared. Thank you for hanging out with me and for this thank you. Really important conversation. I loved it. It was awesome.
[01:03:20] Jared Cooney Horvath: Thank you.
[01:03:26] Casey O'Roarty: Thank you so much for listening. Thank you to my Sprout partners, Julietta and Alana. Thank you Danielle, for supporting with the show notes as well as Chris Mann and the team at Pod Shaper for all the support with getting the show out there and making it sound good. As I mentioned, sharing is caring. If you're willing to pass on this episode to others or take a few minutes to rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, it helps other parents find this useful content.
[01:03:54] Be sure to check out what we have going on for parents of kids of all ages and sign up for our newsletter to stay [email protected]. I see you doing all the things. I believe in you. See you next time.