Eps 646: Getting real about “good kids” with Maggie Nick

“I think one of the most courageous things we can do as parents is to learn how to love the parts of our kids that feel hardest to love within us. So the question I ask myself — the thing I say to myself — is: they’re asking you, can you love me even like this? At the end of the day, my job right now is to hold my boundary, be a confident leader, and love them through this and make them feel like I do love this side of you. And there’s a re-parenting side of this too, where the unlovable sides of me when they come up — I’m going to love her. These moments where my kids are at their quote ‘worst’ and I’m like, I love that part too. I can’t think of anything braver or more courageous.”

– Maggie Nick

Resources Mentioned

• Book: Good Kids: Why You Suffer in Silence and How to Break the Cycle by Maggie Nick — available wherever books are sold
• Website: maggienick.com
• Social Media: @maggiewithperspectacles on TikTok, Instagram, and Facebook
• Brené Brown — mentioned in reference to her work on shame
• Glennon Doyle — mentioned as the origin of the “perspectacles” framework and the word “brutiful”
• Internal Family Systems (IFS/Parts Work) — therapeutic modality referenced by Maggie

Transcription

JC Ep 646 (3.17.26) - Final
[00:00:00] Casey O'Roarty: Welcome, welcome, welcome to the Joyful Courage Podcast. This is a place where parents of tweens and teens come to find inspiration, information, and encouragement in the messy terrain of adolescents. This season of parenting is no joke, and while the details of what we're all moving through might be slightly different, we are indeed having a very collective experience.
[00:00:30] This is a space where we center building, relationship, nurturing life skills, and leaning into our own personal growth and man. The opportunities abound, right. My name is Casey Ody. I am a parent coach, positive discipline lead trainer, and captain of the adolescent ship over at Sprout Bowl. I'm also a speaker and a published author.
[00:00:53] I've been working with parents and families for over 20 years and continue to navigate my own experience of being a mom with my two young adult kids. I'm so honored that you're here and listening. Please give back to the podcast by sharing it with friends or on social media rate and review us on Apple or Spotify.
[00:01:13] Word of mouth is how we grow. Thank you so, so much. Enjoy the show.
[00:01:23] Hey listeners, welcome back to the podcast. So you know, so many of you come to me and you've done so much. You've read all the books, you've taken classes, you show up with intention, and you still find yourselves with a teenager who might be shutting down or performing some kind of okayness or struggling in ways that feel confusing and disconnected from all the effort that you've been putting in.
[00:01:53] Today's conversation is gonna go right to the heart of that. My guest is Maggie Nick. Maggie is a licensed clinical social worker. Trauma therapist and parenting expert whose work sits at the intersection of healing and raising the next generation with intention. She is the author of Good Kids. Why You Suffer in Silence and How to Break the Cycle.
[00:02:16] A book that challenges the idea that well-behaved children are automatically emotionally healthy ones and offers a path forward for parents who wanna break generational patterns of silence and shame. Maggie brings warmth, clinical depth, and a whole lot of honesty to her work. She's built a loyal following through her popular Instagram and TikTok accounts, which you can find at Maggie with Per spectacles.
[00:02:44] Is that right? No, Maggie. With Per Spectacles. Per Spectacles, yeah. Where she makes trauma-informed, parenting accessible and real. Her work is especially resonant for parents who are doing that internal work themselves and wanna raise kids who feel safe enough. To actually show up as they are. I'm so excited about this conversation.
[00:03:04] Maggie, thank you so much. Welcome to the podcast.
[00:03:07] Maggie Nick: Oh, thank you for having me. I'm thrilled to be here.
[00:03:10] Casey O'Roarty: Can you start by sharing a little bit about your path to becoming a trauma therapist and what led you to write Good kids?
[00:03:19] Maggie Nick: Oh, yes. I was a raging good kid. I wasn't just a good kid. I was like all the way on a debilitated end of being a good kid.
[00:03:28] I was the one you never needed to worry about the delight to have in class, right? Old soul, so mature for my age, I was the one everyone counted on, and I wore it like a gold star. I really did. Hmm. Um, I finally got into therapy in my twenties and, um, worked through the big obvious traumatic stuff from my childhood, the actual trauma that was buried for a long time, but then came to the surface and I really expected my life to change.
[00:03:57] I, and I really thought, I, I'll go, I'll walk through this fire and I'll feel so much better. But it didn't, I was the kindest, friendliest person most people had ever met, but inside just, I have, I've had not one, but two therapists tell me that I'm the most viciously critical client they've ever encountered.
[00:04:15] Mm.
[00:04:15] Casey O'Roarty: And like critical of self.
[00:04:17] Maggie Nick: Of myself. Yes. Yeah. So like sunshine and rainbows and you know, sunrise walks on the beach on the outside and then on the inside. Um, I'm not that way anymore, but man. Mm-hmm. And I was also, that was like one thing that jumped out. And then I had a terrible relationship with food just in a battle with my body.
[00:04:34] And the more I worked to the other side of that, I'm like, if it's not that, you know, from my childhood, the thing I can point to, what is it? And as I worked with my therapist, everything kind of kept coming back to this vague. Peripheral ache that there was something wrong with me that I couldn't let people find out.
[00:04:58] And I remember the first time I said that my therapist is like, find out what, and I wish we could zoom forward three years to finding Brene Brown and her work on shame. Yes. And like I was naming shame, I was naming that like I felt like there was something wrong with me. But every row, the perfectionism led to that.
[00:05:14] People pleasing being a shape-shifting chameleon led to that. My body stuff, like it was all, it was all shame. And I remember like on paper, I've been a social worker. I was in the field for eight and a half years before grad school. I worked with victims of violent crime. I worked with grieving children.
[00:05:32] I mean, absolutely crushing life on the outside, but. Man, I kept seeing it in myself. And then I, when I came out of grad school as a therapist, kept seeing the same pattern. Like people who were incredibly kind, super high achieving, like extremely capable people that were completely falling apart inside.
[00:05:51] Yeah. So I shared the first video where I named it The Good Kid. I'd never said that, you know, I'd never called it that before 2020 December of 2020 when I was, I was on the way home from the store and I was like, I got this like lightning bolt of like, pull the car over, make a video. And I talked about the price I paid to be the good kid and that went super viral.
[00:06:12] It was my first viral video. And like tens of thousands of people from all over the world were like, who are you?
[00:06:18] Mm-hmm.
[00:06:19] How do you know me? Like every last detail tracked. And that's when I was like, oh, this is a pattern.
[00:06:26] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. And I have a question and I don't know, you can tell me is this the right question to ask, but it's just coming up for me.
[00:06:35] What problem were you solving by being the good kid?
[00:06:40] Maggie Nick: Hmm. So let me think if I can like zoom all the way out and answer that. I think that if I could put it in one sentence, being the good kid is about trying to shapeshift into whatever will be the most acceptable, impressive, and lovable version of yourself in that moment for that person, based on these crushing, debilitating beliefs we have based on how we are parented and how yeah, you know, generation after generation that there are certain versions of me that are unacceptable and unworthy, hard to love, unlovable.
[00:07:20] And so we have this idea that like, I can't ever let anybody find out that there are those, there's a lazy side of me, there's a reckless side of me, there's a forgetful side of me. Like any of the sides of me that are not impressive. Yeah, I gotta hide 'em. Make sure nobody ever finds out.
[00:07:37] Casey O'Roarty: Right.
[00:07:37] Maggie Nick: And that's why you see the
[00:07:38] like compulsive people pleasing and you know, um, hypervigilance and being on high alert.
[00:07:43] Yeah. And not being able to celebrate your wins because you're already picking apart what you should have done. Like it's, you kind of take the baton and now you're doing that to yourself. You're holding yourself to this insanely high standard, believing that you have to do that in order to be lovable.
[00:07:59] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. A lot of weight given to external validation is what I'm hearing.
[00:08:05] Maggie Nick: Yes. I would say full focus outside. Like, not even partial inside to ourselves. I think good kids lose access to the internal system that tells them what they need and want and feel.
[00:08:18] Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
[00:08:19] Casey O'Roarty: And how interesting. I feel like we're in, we've, you and I, I mean, I think we're probably.
[00:08:25] Uh, relatively closely. I'm
[00:08:26] Maggie Nick: 43.
[00:08:27] Casey O'Roarty: Oh, I'm, I'm a decade ahead of you, but
[00:08:31] good for
[00:08:31] you. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Um, but I feel like we, you know, the eighties, the nineties, there's a lot of like, and, and parent, like the, the paradigm shift in, in parenting around tapping into how the kids are feeling and trying to nurture emotional intelligence.
[00:08:51] What I'm hearing you talk about is a wall of I can't be emotionally authentic, because that's gonna contrast, that's gonna come in conflict with this external vision that I've created of who I am. And so I have to protect myself by not necessarily exposing. That emotional authenticity, which over time, like I'm hearing you say, becomes this crippling self-talk basically.
[00:09:30] Mm, I
[00:09:30] know. Yeah. An internal experience. And so as you did your work and as you listened to people that were coming into your office, what were the things that you started to hear that kind of fell into this, you know, good kid syndrome, which are my words, not yours, um, that you are, that you started noticing?
[00:09:53] So it's funny,
[00:09:54] Maggie Nick: I actually tell the story in the book, in the introduction
[00:09:58] Casey O'Roarty: Awesome.
[00:09:58] Maggie Nick: About the first, um, video. And it was, that was the first time when I talked about the price I'd paid to be the good kid. That was the first time I'd ever used the word good kid. But I had started to have these moments. Were like goosebumps moments where it would feel like I was sitting with the same client in two points in time.
[00:10:14] Right. So I'd sit with an adult in the morning and then I'd sit with a child after school in the afternoon. It would feel like I was talking to the younger version of Yeah. You know, and I, I'm like, whoa. And I had really started to see these patterns that were just shockingly consistent across like, regardless of where they grew up, you know, wealthy, middle class, poor, like it was, you know, really, um, accounting for all of those very consistent.
[00:10:39] And so they struggled to ask for what they need and want because they didn't wanna feel like a burden. The fear that kept them all in a choke hold was that somebody might be mad at them. The words that can still consistently bring my clients to tears that I have to be really intentional about when I say, are there is nothing wrong with you.
[00:11:02] And their deepest, most painful core belief when we kind of pull everything back is that they're hard to love, that they're unlovable. And the connecting thread through all of those is shame, specifically relational shame. So shame that happens inside the relationship between parent and child. And I did, one thing I really wanted to do, I felt like I owed it to the world with writing this book, is to really get some clarity on like, how did this happen?
[00:11:29] You know? Yeah. How did our parents become a generation that raised good kids? Did their parents raise them to be good kids too? Yes. I do think that there was a shift just before, like around probably in the seventies or so, um, if I remember correctly, um. Where parents were trying to move away from corporal punishment.
[00:11:51] Right, right. And like hurting kids with their hands. And so unfortunately, I think they were Yeah. Swapped out one poison for another. Right. Yeah. Because shame is also poison, like physical abuse on kids and hitting them to try to discipline them is poison. It poisons their self-worth, their sense of self, all of it.
[00:12:10] Um, shame is also a poison and it just poisons in a different way. Right? Yeah. And so relational shame trauma is if we're gonna call good kid trauma, we're gonna use the clinical term relational shame, trauma. And it's really this feeling of being made to feel like who you are deep down inside is bad.
[00:12:30] Mm-hmm. And it's something to be ashamed of. Mm-hmm. And, and like ultimately unlovable, it's kind of the way that Yeah. We internalize it. And so, you know, when we had moments, um, where. We fell apart or we made a mistake or we, you know, life got messy, impulsive, right. Tired, labeled as lazy.
[00:12:51] Yeah.
[00:12:51] And our parents responded with, what is wrong with you?
[00:12:56] Why can't you just pull it together? Right. You're being so dramatic. Uh, you should know better.
[00:13:04] Mm-hmm.
[00:13:04] I expected more from you. And the biggie. I'm not mad, I'm just disappointed.
[00:13:10] Casey O'Roarty: Ugh. Yeah.
[00:13:11] Maggie Nick: As kids, we didn't just learn, don't do that. We learned there's something wrong with a version of me that does that, right?
[00:13:19] Mm-hmm. Kids are like, I do know that I'm not supposed to hit my mom, talk to my mom like that. Whatever lie. And so when we come to kids and we act like you should be able to not do this, and yet you're doing it
[00:13:32] Casey O'Roarty: right?
[00:13:32] Maggie Nick: Like whether we say what is wrong with you, we're coming in with this energy of like. I, you know, and kids are like, yeah, I don't, I don't know.
[00:13:39] Yeah. I don't know why I feel the need to push back. I don't know why I talk to you like that. I do know that it's wrong. And so the only, you know the conclusion that they come to without critical thinking and Right. Yeah. Yeah. Nuance and healing is, I guess there is something wrong with me. Right? Yeah. And so it's not just being unseen and having your emotions and needs ignored or disregarded, and it's not just being criticized about every little thing, which a lot of us live through, that it's this feeling of being seen in a bad way, right?
[00:14:10] Mm-hmm. Like this is who you really are, and this version of you is unacceptable. And I better never see this side of you again.
[00:14:18] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. God. It just hurts my heart. It hurts my heart. There's so many things there. Like even just that word unlovable. Yeah. You know, I think it's easy to hold that lightly, but it is such.
[00:14:32] A deeply painful experience to be wearing that label. Something that's come up today, now th this is the fourth time, is this idea that our kids know better. Therefore, if they feel bad enough, then they'll do better. And it totally misses the very real probability that there's actually a lag in their skills.
[00:15:03] Mm-hmm. So I might know better than to grab a bag of chips from the student store when no one's looking
[00:15:14] right.
[00:15:15] And my impulse control, 'cause I'm a teenager, is.
[00:15:19] Maggie Nick: Profoundly
[00:15:20] undermined.
[00:15:21] Casey O'Roarty: Yes. My assessment radar is also underdeveloped. I probably will get away with it. And the tension that I feel in my body inside of all of this, I don't have the skills for.
[00:15:34] Well,
[00:15:34] Maggie Nick: and it's so I'm just gonna
[00:15:35] for it capabilities,
[00:15:37] right? Yes.
[00:15:37] Be confuse capabilities with capacity. Right. And we as adults run into this too, like it was. Utterly revolutionary. Yeah. Like, I'm not exaggerating one of the like, milestones in my healing journey when I could be like, oh, when my stress level's lower, I can respond calmly.
[00:15:58] Choose not to have another cupcake, right? Like make mm-hmm. Choose the salad instead of the like junk food. Like it's my ability to like make good choices in air quotes, has everything to do with where my stress level is and when I'm Yeah. 10 is where we, this is oversimplified, but if 10 is where our body, you know, we can't hold anymore and our body is gonna release stress with tears, we don't know where we're crying or screaming.
[00:16:21] Kids are us, 10 is where our body's like, all right, well can't hold anymore. We can go over 10, but our body has to take us offline consciously. Right? Right. Many of us lived above 10, so seven out of 10 tends to be the dysregulation zone, and that's where our nervous system is moving into a stress response fight.
[00:16:36] Flight, bon freeze. Yeah. And when I, I just remember being like, oh, like. This is what my best looks like right now, given what I'm going, you know, the, the lack of sleep, the headache I've had for two days, whatever it is, the stress load I'm carrying. Like I, there was just really a turning point where I'm like, wow.
[00:16:56] Like I'm holding my myself to this like, ridiculous standard.
[00:17:00] Yeah.
[00:17:01] That's actually impossible. Like objectively impossible. And of course I'm failing to meet my own ex. Like, it's just, it's like I did, I took the baton and just kept doing that to myself. Yeah. Like, you should be able to do this. What is wrong with you?
[00:17:15] And just, I'm like, but that standard is like made up. Yeah. Like, it's not even realistic or real.
[00:17:22] Right.
[00:17:22] And, and I continue to feel like I'm not good enough because I'm like, no, you shouldn't be this tired. Says who. Mm-hmm. Like actually my tiredness, my fatigue right now Makes sense.
[00:17:32] Yeah.
[00:17:32] Right. My ability to be calm or not calm makes sense.
[00:17:36] Yeah. And so I just, I don't know. I think there's something to be said about. Recognizing, and we, we need to do this for ourselves. We need to be less fricking hard on ourselves. We also need to do it for our kids. Right? Like you may have the capability under ideal conditions.
[00:17:49] Mm-hmm.
[00:17:49] Right? And when your capacity is low and you've got 30% bandwidth before your body's a volcano that's about to blow, it's gonna get hard.
[00:17:57] And your impulse controls gonna be very undermined. Yeah. And so we, and
[00:18:00] Casey O'Roarty: that's not a character flaw, that's
[00:18:02] no biology physiology.
[00:18:04] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Well, and I was, and something else that's come up today a bunch is our deep desire to be seen. Mm-hmm. And I, I listened to you speak into this experience of an outward presentation and an internal experience.
[00:18:22] Like it makes sense that being praised for that external presentation, that there is this like, but you don't actually see me. 'cause if you saw me. You would see the pain that I'm in you, you would see. And our kids want to be seen so much so that they're willing to do whatever it takes mm-hmm. To get us there.
[00:18:48] And, you know, some of our kids that looks like really annoying hard behavior. And what I'm hearing you say is other kids, it's over performance. O like mm-hmm. Excessive achievement, this presentation of perfection. And there are kids that are just kind of, you know, doing just fine. We're not talking about those kids.
[00:19:07] Right.
[00:19:08] So when we're talking about, you know, putting this in the context of our kids and acknowledging there's work for all of us here. For sure. What are the signs, uh, for parents that are listening? That might be often missed or explained away that our kiddos emotional world doesn't necessarily match that outward presentation and achievement and, and, you know, high level of what seems to be like, oh, look at you, you're just a go-getter.
[00:19:40] Maggie Nick: Mm-hmm. Yep. So as a therapist, I conceptualize this as check engine lights. So I paid attention for a couple months in my practice and came up with my top 10. It's not comprehensive or exhaustive, but it is the top 10 that I tend to see the most.
[00:19:56] Mm-hmm.
[00:19:57] I, I call them check engine lights in kids because they're not red flags.
[00:20:01] Right. Okay. It's not like it's, it's more like if we're driving down the road and your check engine light comes on. If we can manage somehow to turn the check engine light off, we still have a problem at a deeper level, right? Mm-hmm. The check engine light is not the actual problem, it's just the indicator that there's a deeper problem.
[00:20:19] And so, so many of these things that we're looking for, parents will see their kid people pleasing. They're like, okay, let's just fix that. It's like, Nope, people pleasing is the check engine light. There's a deeper issue, right? Yes. And so we've gotta see it as always an indicator of a deeper issue. So I talked through 10 in the book, but to put it in like normal human terms, um, the things like the top, I think I made a list of six just to have on hand of the things that kind of like feel like a check engine light to me, where I'm not worried.
[00:20:49] I'm just, I'm listening, I'm leaning in a little bit. Mm-hmm. Tell me more. Um, when kids feel like they can never relax or let their guard down, they don't always report it, but you observe it, right? Mm-hmm. They just seem kind of hypervigilant on high alert. Always anxious, always worried, always stressed.
[00:21:06] Mm-hmm. That's a check engine light for me. Um, that's a kid who's working really hard to keep it together and look fine on the outside. Right. Being extremely hard on yourself.
[00:21:17] Mm-hmm.
[00:21:17] Right. Perfectionism and debilitating fear of failure, but like, not even being able to enjoy your wins 'cause you're already picking apart what you should have done better and then moving the goalpost for the next time.
[00:21:29] Like, I clock that when kids are like, yeah, but I got a 93 but I should have gotten it. Like, okay, yeah, we'll stop. Nope. Um, being anxious and on edge when nothing is obviously wrong. Always worrying about disappointing people and making people mad.
[00:21:46] Yeah.
[00:21:47] Right. And so I, part three of the book is all the parenting side of this.
[00:21:51] Mm-hmm. Like how do we break these cycles? And I really did try to write it as like an a handbook for parents. I talked through the top good kid unspoken rules that good kids follow. And I, I recommend if you've got a teen, especially take the book and read that section with your child. Yeah. And like, right, like the vibe that I bring to my kids who are eight and 11 right now is like, I, I'm, I'm trying to parent real differently from how I was parented.
[00:22:17] There's so many things I don't wanna do and sometimes I'm gonna do them. And like, you, you deserve better than that. And so I'm gonna try my hardest to notice when I make you feel bad notice when I shut you down. I have an ongoing, I've done it probably four or five times now with my oldest, my daughter, where I'm like, I just, there was one day a couple years ago and I'm like, oh no, I'm making her feel like nothing she's doing is good enough.
[00:22:42] Which is probably like my number one.
[00:22:44] Mm-hmm.
[00:22:44] If I could like most debilitating things that just come up all the time. And so I pulled her aside. We had a little circle back and I said, I wanna ask a question and I want you to know that it's really safe for you to answer this truthfully. You'll not hurt my feelings, but I really wanna know.
[00:23:02] And if you need time, that's okay too. Am I making you feel like nothing you ever do is good enough? And she like, face dropped and I'm like, oh. I just said, oh my gosh, I've spent my whole life feeling that way, and here I am doing it to you too. And like I didn't model braid myself or hating myself. I'm just like, look at that.
[00:23:23] Look how that works. Right? Yeah. That's keeping the cycle going. And I said, but this cycle ends with me. Like, I won't do that to you, but I'm gonna need to like work with my therapist and I, yeah. This is me committing that I'm gonna do the work. I'm gonna show up, I'm gonna figure out what this is, and I am so sorry.
[00:23:40] Mm-hmm. Like that. I have made you feel this way. This is me, this is my stuff, this is my work.
[00:23:45] Yeah.
[00:23:45] There's nothing wrong with you. You're wonderful. Yeah. And like you deserve better, right? I don't have to hate myself in that moment. I just need to really see the impact I'm having and communicate that it matters to me that I'm hurting you and this is what I'm gonna do about it.
[00:24:09] Yeah,
[00:24:09] Casey O'Roarty: in, in that moment, Maggie. So what were the tools that you used internally as you received that feedback? Because, you know, I think that our personal growth work is cyclical, right? Mm-hmm. Like there's layers, and as we kind of find our way into a new level of understanding and appreciation and possibility for ourself, we'll have an an interaction or an experience where it's like, oh, poke little, just a little poke on that there.
[00:24:40] It feels different. Yeah. So what were some of the things that helped you receive that feedback without like an internal collapse?
[00:24:49] Hmm. I mean, a lot of therapy.
[00:24:51] Maggie Nick: Mm-hmm. It's
[00:24:53] been a long time relationship with my therapist. Um, I think it hit me first. I mean, I always go right to dissociation generally when like, okay, when it's like a, you know, the like carnival thing, like when I have one of those, my body just is like, let's take her offline.
[00:25:09] Yeah. It's too
[00:25:09] much. Even when it's joy protector, like, it's been funny with the book, like any kind of sudden surge of emotion, my body's like, take her offline. Mm-hmm. Um, so there was numbness and just kind of like not feeling anything at adverse. And then I think it moved into sadness and just like, damn it.
[00:25:24] Yeah.
[00:25:25] And just grief. Like, I so badly didn't want to make her feel that way. Um, and then, and then eventually fight response showed up
[00:25:32] Yeah.
[00:25:33] And called BS and was like, Nope, nope, nope. You noticed you did it. Yeah. You owned that. You did it, you had the conversation with her, you apologized. Yeah. You owned your impact and you committed to, and you've been in therapy.
[00:25:44] I mean, at that point. 13 years of trauma therapy. Mm-hmm. Like I literally don't know what more I could be doing at this moment to break this cycle. Yeah. So I just have to commit to always circling back and I have a hundred percent like repair rate. Like I always come back, I apologize. Me too. That's all I can do.
[00:26:01] I'm gonna mess up all the time. Like I, you really objectively can't break every cycle. And even if you could, like our kids need to see what it looks like to be a messy human. Yes. Who forgets and makes mistakes and messes up and loses control and makes impulsive decisions, then has to live with the consequences.
[00:26:16] Like,
[00:26:16] yeah,
[00:26:17] obviously we wanna teach our kids how to repair and like how to start the hard conversation and how to own our impact, but we also want our kids to believe they deserve repair. So when they're in a relationship with someone who doesn't apologize, they're like, alarm bells. Sorry, what?
[00:26:31] Mm-hmm.
[00:26:32] You owe me an apology. Right? Yeah.
[00:26:33] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. And I like to say, you know, I, my goal is to hand over a, um, carry-on bag of issues to deal with in therapy versus a U-Haul truck. Like, I like That's, you know, and, and I'm really resonating with what you're saying and the cycle breaking. So my kids are 20 and 23, and my daughter has been the catalyst.
[00:26:56] She's my oldest for so many interruptions of patterns and habits that have been alive in the mother, oldest daughter relational lineage.
[00:27:08] Yeah.
[00:27:08] And it just, every single step along the way has been like, oh, look at us. We're doing it different. And it's hard. Yeah. And wow, I remember so much compassion for my.
[00:27:20] Parent as I faced down this sweet little three-year-old with rage that I couldn't understand was coming up for me. It was like, oh, this is so overwhelming. I'm aware of it. It makes sense that a parent 23 years ago
[00:27:42] mm-hmm.
[00:27:42] Mm-hmm. Who was also confronted by a, a small children
[00:27:47] mm-hmm.
[00:27:47] Who didn't have skills Right.
[00:27:50] Would take this rage and it would spill out onto the children. And then recently she, my daughter, you know, now that she's 23, when she gets support, it's more of looking at
[00:28:04] mm-hmm.
[00:28:05] Times of life versus being in a time of life and getting support. And so she shared with me, I didn't feel belonging when I was a young kid.
[00:28:18] Yeah.
[00:28:18] And. Maggie, I'm a positive discipline trainer. I
[00:28:22] know
[00:28:22] it's adly in theory, it's belong all about belonging in significance. So to receive that and not dismiss it or collapse in it or you know, grovel like I, it was like, oh, here we are yet again breaking a cycle. 'cause I am sitting with you in this.
[00:28:44] Right.
[00:28:44] I am acknowledging that this was your experience.
[00:28:47] You're
[00:28:47] believing her. Her I'm holding. It's how Believing her her.
[00:28:50] Yeah.
[00:28:50] Yeah. And that is not something that I can do with my parents, so.
[00:28:54] Right.
[00:28:54] I just wanted to highlight just how you know this work is, there's so many facets to it. There's so many layers to it.
[00:29:02] It's so much bigger than just, here's what to say in the moment.
[00:29:06] Maggie Nick: Oh my gosh.
[00:29:06] Casey O'Roarty: And
[00:29:07] your work. And you know, what I'm trying to do over here are really examples. That, right? Yeah. We, we parent from our own programming until we have enough experience or awareness to start to do the work to interrupt it. So,
[00:29:25] yeah.
[00:29:26] It's so powerful. And my, my listeners are parents of teenagers, right? And so the running joke is, you know, spoiler alert, you've never had act, you've actually never had control.
[00:29:38] Oh yeah.
[00:29:38] But when they're younger, if they're somewhat compliant, you can live in this illusion that you know, the right consequences and the right rewards will keep them moving in the right direction.
[00:29:51] And then they become teenagers and it's like, oh. Wow. Now we Big
[00:29:55] toddlers.
[00:29:56] Yeah. Toddlers and teenagers, right? Yeah. We've gotta, I've, it's like, okay, I need to expand out of just the idea that I can control this situation and then what exists in that space. Right. I talk about relationship and influence and, and all of those things, but can you talk about the difference between discipline that teaches and discipline that's, you know, with the best intention meant to control the situation or the child?
[00:30:24] Oh, yeah. Well, amen. Everything you just said, by the way, um, I think rec, we gotta kind of take a critical eye to a lot of things. I don't believe our parents had any sense that all of this was gonna land the way it landed for us. Yeah. Right. And, and really, like I tell a story in the book about. Just really wanting to be a soft spot to land when my daughter was needy.
[00:30:48] Right? Yeah. I just imagine when she was a baby, I'm like, oh my gosh. Did not realizing that was my deepest wound. Right? Like that I'm projecting that like I never felt safe, so I want you to feel safe.
[00:30:59] Maggie Nick: Yeah.
[00:30:59] And then cut to her being a toddler. And I, I don't remember anything. Like, my memory is, I dissociate a lot I think, but um mm-hmm.
[00:31:08] I remember like, it was yesterday she was two, I think we had just moved into this house and there was a moment of neediness and I like blacked out. Like, but when I came to, I had said words that had put her in her place. Right. And she was sort of huddled over in shame. And I'm like, oh no. And I really, like you said, there, there is this moment of like, oh, okay.
[00:31:33] That's probably what happened with my mom. Right. Like she, I think what was happening, um, is she was doing something that I could not have done as a child. It would not have been safe to do it. And so a really, a loving part of me is like, no, it's not safe to act that way. I'm gonna protect you by stopping it.
[00:31:55] Just shut it, shut it down.
[00:31:56] Shut it down.
[00:31:57] Right? Because your mom gets really scary when you act like that. She doesn't love you when you act like that. Like, don't do that. And so it really did take so much work to be like, oh, okay. When I was needy, I was made to feel pitiful. I was called poor little pitiful pearl a lot by her.
[00:32:18] I was made to feel. I know.
[00:32:20] Casey O'Roarty: Sweet little Maggie, I just wanna hug you.
[00:32:23] Maggie Nick: I know.
[00:32:24] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:32:24] Maggie Nick: Yeah. So pitiful, right? A lot of us have like a particular word that's sort of the name of our deepest shame. I did write about that in the book, and so. Sitting with like, wow, I was made to feel pitiful in that moment. And pathetic but pitiful is really the deeper cut for me.
[00:32:40] And so like, I need to go back for that little me right? And like hold her and tell her, you're not pitiful. I love you. Like it's okay. And like do the parts work. I love internal family systems, parts work, right? And so going back in for the parts work and like rescuing that. Version of me that was still, you know, in that shame spiral from the way that my mother reacted to ne to the neediness.
[00:33:04] And really I had to release a lot of tears once I could finally cry as a person. And when my body would finally allow me to cry a couple years ago. And I had to, to release a lot of rage, I really did have to release just a ton of rage about the needy thing to really, and now I can mostly, assuming my stress level isn't a nine out of 10.
[00:33:25] I'm really capable of being a soft spot to land when they need to be needy. But man, it took a lot of work and I think we have to just see that like the, the parts of us that feel the hardest to love in ourselves are gonna be the parts that feel hardest to love in our kid. Mm-hmm. And like when you notice these moments where you're trying to control, there's probably a part of you that's thinking it's not safe to act that way.
[00:33:48] And I've gotta protect you by steering you away from vulnerability, from being messy, from being emotional, from being dramatic. Right. Right.
[00:33:56] Right.
[00:33:57] So I think so much of what we've been taught to see as respect is really like blind obedience and dominating kids into submission to us. Yeah. Really when we just think about it and so kids learn to obey, we can say that works, air quotes, because kids are scared of what will happen.
[00:34:14] Right? Right. But it's not, it's not genuine respect. Right. We know that respect
[00:34:18] Yeah.
[00:34:18] Has to go both ways. Right. That I, if I respect my child, then they respect me. Like, you can't dominate and scare a child into respecting you. That's just fear. Fear-based compliance. Right?
[00:34:29] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. Yeah. And what's that training them up for?
[00:34:32] What kind of relationships is that training them up for?
[00:34:34] I
[00:34:34] love,
[00:34:35] Maggie Nick: well they were shocked, right? Yeah. When she, when they end up in relationships with people who dominate them in a submission like that feels like a pretty straight line, right?
[00:34:43] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. Yeah. Well, and one of the tools that we talk about a lot in positive discipline, and I think it's talked more about, you know, it's so interesting.
[00:34:52] I started my career working with families of, you know, kids, zero to 12, and then my kids became teenagers and I was like, holy shit, where's the help for the parents of teenagers? And have I been completely duped by this parenting style? I have no idea what I'm doing. The shit is hitting the fan. And that's when I really leaned in to focusing on adolescence and learning more about adolescence and talking more about adolescence.
[00:35:15] And so one of the tools that I love that, that we talk about in positive discipline is connection before correction. And there's something about a little kid where it's like, oh yeah, of course it's different. It can feel different. Or we perceive it to be different when that little kid is. Now my son is six five and he, you know, crossed over six foot probably in like seventh grade.
[00:35:38] So he's been way taller than me for a long time. And when it's like connect before, correct, that feels like no, dude, you should know, like, mm-hmm. I'm gonna skip over that and I'm just gonna tell you. Right. And you just brought up mutual respect, so mm-hmm. When, the other thing that we talk about, that I talk about is mutual respect being, I'm gonna respect you while also respecting myself in the situation.
[00:36:04] Right. And so connecting before correcting is like, I'm gonna connect with you, I'm gonna see you. Mm-hmm. Right? Because again, we wanna be seen, I'm gonna see you in this moment and, and I'm also going to, you know, hold a boundary or create a structure or bring us back to the system that we've Mm. Created to kind of keep order.
[00:36:28] Hmm.
[00:36:29] How does that land for you clinically, as, you know, doing the work that you do?
[00:36:34] Mm-hmm.
[00:36:35] That idea of connecting before correcting, also being about mutual respect.
[00:36:39] Maggie Nick: Oh my
[00:36:40] gosh. I mean. We've inherited these really effed up misguided beliefs that have just been handed down generation after generation.
[00:36:49] Mm-hmm. Um, that kids should be able to never misbehave that kids should be able to turn off their emotions like a light switch, that when kids are disrespectful, they're, you know, choosing that and like being manipulative and trying to pull one over on us or get away with it. Right. And so I think there are these really messed up beliefs that have got to be addressed that children not only need to suffer to learn, but deserve to.
[00:37:16] Right? Mm-hmm. They need to suffer and they need to suffer alone. Kids don't learn anything in that. Yeah. Except I'm bad and you don't love me when I'm like this.
[00:37:25] Mm-hmm.
[00:37:26] Literally. Right. Kids change their behavior when they feel seen and safe.
[00:37:33] Yeah. Yeah.
[00:37:34] Right? Like not scared and intimidated, threatened, like literally imagine.
[00:37:42] Imagine being made to feel like there's something fundamentally wrong with you and then somebody's saying, but you believe you can do better next time. Right. It's like, no. Right. If I'm the problem, uh, we're doomed.
[00:37:53] Yeah.
[00:37:54] Right. And so I do think there's this fascinating research on shame prone and guilt prone self-talk.
[00:38:01] Yeah.
[00:38:02] Right. So shame prone the way we talk to ourselves, it's like, I'm bad and guilt prone self-talk is I did something bad. Right? And it's just really focusing on the thing that happened, not them and who they are as a person, right? Mm-hmm. And they've done longitudinal studies on this coming into elementary school.
[00:38:20] And then again in high school. The biggest determining factor of whether kids are shame prone or guilt prone is parenting style, specifically. Parenting style that's harsh and critical, and believing that the child needs to be sent away to suffer alone in silence.
[00:38:35] Mm-hmm.
[00:38:35] Mm-hmm. Right? Never talking about stuff.
[00:38:37] Right. And so I think. Kids need to feel like, and the, the whole idea of per spectacles, um, I learned about per spectacles from Glennon Doyle, originally Uhhuh, and I have my whole parenting framework, it's kind of moving away from it now I guess, but it's parenting with per spectacles. And it's this idea that per spectacles in general, it's like putting on these magic glasses to like, what's actually going on here.
[00:39:02] Right. And so from a parenting standpoint, everything changes when kids feel like, my mom knows I'm still in here.
[00:39:10] Mm-hmm.
[00:39:12] She knows that I, this behavior is not who I really am. Like she's holding onto the rope that says, I know you and I know this behavior isn't you. You're just really overwhelmed right now.
[00:39:24] And like, I'm not gonna let you talk to me. Like that. Act like that, like we need non-negotiable boundaries. We do not need fewer boundaries. We need better boundaries. Right?
[00:39:32] Yeah.
[00:39:33] Um, we also need to try, stop trying to solve the problem when everybody's at a 10, like nothing gets a calm. Yeah. We just need to survive and like get through it till everybody calms down and then we like solve the world's problems.
[00:39:43] But like right in that moment, stop trying to get your kid to see like, I can't see the light when I'm at 10. Yeah. I'm like, get outta my face. Right? Yes. But when we are coming in with this energy of like, ah. I know you. This isn't you. You're overwhelmed right now. I'm not gonna let you do that. You're gonna have to face the consequences of your actions.
[00:40:01] Mm-hmm.
[00:40:01] But we're gonna do that together.
[00:40:03] Mm-hmm.
[00:40:03] Like, imagine our parents instead of like icing us out, sending us away. Right? Like, get outta my face. I can't even look at you right now. All those things that they got from their parents. Imagine your parents had said, I know you. Yeah. And like you're overwhelmed right now.
[00:40:19] This behavior is because you're overwhelmed and dysregulated. So I can't let you talk to me like that. Yeah. But like, we're gonna get through this. Yeah. And like, I'm right here and I'm not going anywhere. Like you and I are good that happened and you're gonna have to face that. But I'm not going anywhere.
[00:40:33] Like just, can you even imagine how different your whole life would be?
[00:40:45] Casey O'Roarty: I wanna get into like, maybe it's a little weedy, but a little nuance because. I what I'm hear, like the power move that I'm hearing is, I know you, I see you, I see you struggling. I see that something's going on. I see that there's something going on under the surface. Because I also think, 'cause I had this experience, I have many parents, I've stepparents and, and bio parents that I, and I have relationships with all of them.
[00:41:13] But one of those parents, the move was, you're great, you're capable, you're, it was language, but there was no recognition of you're having a hard time right now and I'm here for that too. It was more of just a like, right. I remember my dad even saying, you know, don't use that as a crutch. Mm-hmm. And the thing that he was talking about was such a profound part of my life that I wasn't allowed to.
[00:41:42] Be in my emotional turmoil around Oh, oh, you were
[00:41:44] Maggie Nick: throwing yourself a pity party. Right? That's what I
[00:41:47] thought.
[00:41:47] Casey O'Roarty: Right. He, yeah. And it was like, wow, that is so interesting. And the way that it shows up now is that it can be very, like, when I am expressing my experience, there is this little voice that's like, nobody wants to hear this.
[00:42:05] Right. So anyway, side note, the other thing, but what I wanna bring us back to is, so this, you know, there's these kids that, you know, through childhood, the good kid moves, kept things smooth and safe and lovable, and then they become teenagers. And I'm guessing there's those kids that just carry on. But I'm wondering about the kids who get to an age where they're just like, you know what, screw you.
[00:42:35] Mm-hmm.
[00:42:36] And then it becomes, because it adolescence is about individuation and pulling away Yeah. And forming identity. And I can imagine, because I have a lot of clients who can't pinpoint where the resentment comes from. Mm. But now they have a 14-year-old who hates them.
[00:42:56] Hmm.
[00:42:57] And I'm wondering mm-hmm. If this is, you know, I'm just, as I talked to you, I wonder if this is a piece of that puzzle.
[00:43:04] Mm hmm.
[00:43:06] Maggie Nick: Yeah. I mean, I, I think when I talk to kids, it's interesting. I'll have kids sometimes where I'll hear from the parent first. Like, we'll have just a two minute touch base. How are things going? Anything I need to know? They're reporting, things are great, things are so good. And then I get in the room and the kid's like.
[00:43:25] Yeah, and it's just like, what is that? Right? Like what, how are we so off base? How, what is the parent not seeing? Like what, and me just always kind of trying to figure this out with my clients and how I can support the parent, how I can help them see things differently. How I can help the child see the parent and their limitations and the ways they're trying, but also hold space for like the impact that their actions are having.
[00:43:49] It's fascinating. I think there are kids where 10 seems to be like I have a lot of kids who start seeing me around 10 or 11. Mm-hmm. I do think that there is something developmentally where if a parent. The kids aren't scared anymore. Like you can threaten and they're kind of like, what are you gonna do about it?
[00:44:08] Right. And if the parents aren't prepared to escalate physically, then we have a problem. Right. Right. And a lot of the, like, fear and intimidation based parenting kind of falls apart. Right. A lot of good kids do double down though here. Like they, they feel like if I displease them, if I do anything they disapprove of, if I do anything to disappoint them, I lose them.
[00:44:30] So I must just really clamp down and white knuckle and make sure that I'm, you know, never a burden. Never showing these sides of myself. But there are kids where fight the fight response has been inside. Right. And this is our nervous system stress response. And it, it, you know, they, a lot of kids will move into Fawn response, which is really good kid fawn freeze.
[00:44:53] Right. Um, and they, they do have a fight response where they would push back, but it eventually, their body just turns it off. They're like, Nope, we lose them if we do that. That's a threat to your belonging and your survival ultimately. Yeah. Because you need them and when you push back, you fall out of favor with them and they stop acting like they care about you and they're not willing to care for you.
[00:45:11] So like, we are gonna shut that fight response down, but the fire response gets turned inward. Right. That's when they're viciously critical. The most viciously critical client these therapists have ever seen. Right. And so there are kids and like there's, it's fascinating to really talk through all the different scenarios where you see this, but like where the fight response will shift out sometimes it's because being the good kid stops working from the standpoint of like protecting them from their parent.
[00:45:38] Like I've had a lot of kids who were the good kid. In adolescence, right? Like up until nine or 10 or 11, and then their parent is still physically abusive, right? Mm-hmm. Like being good and being compliant doesn't protect them from their parents' rage from their parents'. Right. You know, abusive neglect
[00:45:54] Casey O'Roarty: or emotional, I mean, for us it was, for me, it was a lot of emotional, right?
[00:45:57] Like I never had hands laid on me, but
[00:45:59] Right
[00:46:01] man.
[00:46:01] Mm-hmm.
[00:46:01] I had some language that was very abusive and harmful. Right.
[00:46:07] And so sometimes the fight response comes online to protect them, but it's so demonized. Mm-hmm. Like the way the parents double down on the shame, like, and they're like, I thought I knew you.
[00:46:18] Maggie Nick: Who even are you like, you know, peeling back all the layers that those clients have, like this really just fundamental belief that there's something wrong with them for fighting back.
[00:46:28] Yeah.
[00:46:29] Right.
[00:46:29] Yeah.
[00:46:30] It's, it's so many layers. My
[00:46:32] gosh.
[00:46:32] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. What about, so, and then there's those kids, like you said, double down, you know, and I'm thinking about other clients who might have kids that, you know, they're seeing some of those check engine lights come on.
[00:46:45] Right. Especially around. Unrealistic expectations or like even like the response to a grade that doesn't necessarily match the grade and perhaps the self-talk is now happening out loud. Right? Or you're the parent that's trying to say, Hey babe, you know, like you did in your example, you know, I and I have done too.
[00:47:11] Like, you get to kill it as much as you wanna kill it at school. That's for you. That's not for me. And like untethering them from that unrealistic drive or perfectionism. It can feel really hard. And I think a lot of us, the instinct is like, no, that's not you. You don't have to, you're not lazy or you're not, we wanna talk them out of mm-hmm.
[00:47:41] You know how they're feeling about themselves and, and you have a perspective about this that I want you to talk about. Walk us through that, because that instinct is to reassure. And to, to change their mind. What's more useful?
[00:47:57] Maggie Nick: Okay, so when I do talk about this in more detail in the book, and this is one of the most important sections, like they're all important, but this one's really important.
[00:48:05] So kids will say things like, I'm so stupid. I'm so fat, I'm so ugly. I don't have any friends. Right? Yes. Nobody likes me. I'll never be happy again. Right? And
[00:48:16] nothing will ever work,
[00:48:17] right? Like, it's doomed. I'm, you know, I'll never be happy again. That kind of stuff. And it can flag parts of us. I think part of the reason this feels particularly hard is because we would've been called dramatic, right?
[00:48:30] We would've been like, oh, come on, pull it together. And just made to feel like nobody cares, right?
[00:48:37] Yeah.
[00:48:37] We also feel. We need, it's our job to talk that down. Right. It feels like, as a parent, I can't let you talk to yourself like that. And I think there's something too like, Hey, don't I, sometimes I'll be like, don't talk about my, don't talk to my girl like that.
[00:48:51] Like I'll kind of come in from this. Like, you know. But I think the deeper thing when we rescue them and we reality check them with like, that's not true. You're so beautiful. You're so smart. We have a bright future. You know? You have so many friends. Like it doesn't land the way we think it does. Right?
[00:49:08] Right. Because when we rush to pull them from a feeling place into a thinking place, which is by the way, our best coping skill with being an actual feeling, being who is raised to believe we should be a thinking being, right? Like the research says, we are actually deeply emotional feeling people and we use logic and reason to back up.
[00:49:28] The emotional decision we've already made, but we were all made to feel like we should be more logical and more rational and like, right. I understand this. Like there's so many reasons why that, like wanting to reality check them makes sense. But I'm, this is me begging you not to do that and instead say something like that is so hard to feel that way.
[00:49:47] Casey O'Roarty: Yes.
[00:49:47] Validation.
[00:49:48] Maggie Nick: Right?
[00:49:48] Because what happens is when we come in to rush and correct it, they feel like you don't get it.
[00:49:54] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. Dismissed.
[00:49:55] Maggie Nick: Like, I, and I shouldn't feel this way. Apparently I'm being ridiculous, so I'm just all alone with this right now. Right. And feeling alone with those feelings is part of what moves it into shame, right?
[00:50:07] Mm-hmm. I shouldn't feel this way. Should and shouldn't is a shame word. Right? And so this is when kids start to really like the, the belief that they are too sensitive, too emotional, too much really starts to take hold in a big way internally for them. And that's when they start to really feel like they need to hide.
[00:50:27] We'll say, you can come to me with anything. But then they say these things and we feel like they're being ridiculous. Like there is a part of your child that is hurting intensely and they don't need us to argue with it.
[00:50:39] Right.
[00:50:40] They need us to see that right now. This is how it feels for them. Have you had moments, Casey, that you felt like it was all going down in flames?
[00:50:47] Have you had moments where you felt like you were ugly fat? Yeah. Like we've all been there. It is a normal human way to feel and our kids just need to feel like they get that, this is how it feels to me right now. We don't need to join them. Right. We don't need to like jump off the dock and drown with them.
[00:51:03] We need to stand on the dock with a towel and like a life preserver. Mm-hmm. And like, yep. Like they just need us to sit there and be like, yeah. Sometimes it feels like that. Like we, we ultimately want them to do that for themselves. Right. Like when they, when they're older. Our goal is to like equip them with being able to deal with things on their own.
[00:51:20] And so we wanna think, how do we want our kid to talk to themselves when they're a grownup? Not in my house. Yeah. We want them to be like, it's okay to feel this way. Everybody feels like this sometimes. Like we've gotta say that to them.
[00:51:30] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. And I think that goes back to that deep desire to be seen in our experiences.
[00:51:36] Like we really get to actively. Verbally see our kiddos and see what they're moving through. And then there's so much work for us to do around how uncomfortable it feels when our kids are struggling. Mm-hmm. Right? So there's the work of building our own tolerance for sitting with them in it and recognizing, being with them.
[00:52:04] Seeing them in their challenge is not adding to the challenge.
[00:52:09] Maggie Nick: Right. It's holding them through it. Right. Yeah, we can. So I love that. We've been through this a couple passes. We know that like this is a way that we feel and then we come out of it. But like our kids, I mean, maybe they've been through it a couple times before, but they weren't at this developmental agent stage.
[00:52:24] Right, right. Yeah. And so it feels different now, and so we need to. Hold on to the truth that we know that it's going to be okay. They're going to be okay. But in that moment we want them to feel seen and like somebody understands. 'cause once generally, and like I know you've seen this in your work. I see it every day in my work, like when we just see someone and we just go, yeah, that's so hard, isn't it?
[00:52:47] Yeah.
[00:52:47] Like just that moment of like, okay, I'm not alone in this. There's nothing wrong with me. Like I'm not broken. Like this is just a normal thing. That's when we can move out of the feeling like it's got us in a choke hold. Shame is really the thing that's got us in a choke hold. They're like, I shouldn't, you know, other kids don't deal with this.
[00:53:03] What's wrong with me? And when we can just be like, Nope, that's totally normal. Everybody feels that way sometimes. Not in a dismissive way, but just like, yeah.
[00:53:10] Yeah.
[00:53:10] Like that sounds really painful. I'm so sorry you feel that way? Or like, this feels really big right now. Yeah, I'm here with you. Yeah. Like from this place of like, we're going to be okay, but like we can like.
[00:53:21] Extending our hand when our child feels like they're falling off a cliff. Like that's what we need to do. Just like gradually pull them up or like give them a hand and they'll climb up your arm. Like we don't have to like jerk them out of that.
[00:53:34] Casey O'Roarty: And we get to do the best we can with the tools we have in the moment.
[00:53:36] I'm thinking about how recently my daughter was like, oh, you know, as a teenager, I just felt like there was so much about me that needed to be fixed. And she goes, you know what? I'm coming to realize I'm just kind of quirky. Mm. Like, and I like that. And you know, I think it was such a great reminder that we are, we typically have our kids in home, you know, 18 ish years and then they baby step out into the world or fully step out into the world depending on your kid.
[00:54:07] And I constantly am reminding parents like they are not fully baked. Oh no, they're not fully baked. Nor am I. I'm 53 years old or 52, actually I'm 52, not 53. There you go. Yeah.
[00:54:19] Yep.
[00:54:19] I am continuing to find my way and develop
[00:54:23] Oh yeah.
[00:54:23] Tools and skills and that's the journey. You know, I think there's also something here as we do the best we can to remember, like they are gonna continue to grow and develop well beyond the time that they spend.
[00:54:38] Mm-hmm. In the home with us, even as you know, of course, it's such a critical time. Absolutely. An important time relationally. And you know, they're gonna find their way to therapy too and, and are gonna make sense of or not.
[00:54:55] Maggie Nick: Let's
[00:54:55] hope so,
[00:54:56] honestly.
[00:54:57] Right.
[00:54:57] Rooting for them to all find their way to therapy.
[00:54:59] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah, I know. Same, same. So anyway, so I wanna, I wanna make sure that we leave listeners with something they can really take into this week in their practice, something that is a shift in awareness or new thing that they can do. So as they're listening and recognizing perhaps their own kiddo inside of our conversation, what is a, a first step that they can take to start creating some emotional safety so that this good kid persona can begin to dismantle?
[00:55:33] Maggie Nick: Mm. So I have two. Okay. One I've already kind of talked about, but I couldn't narrow it down to one. That's good. So I teach five adjustments in the book. Right. Okay. They're just like, we don't need to completely. You know, like change everything up. There's just these right little places that take shame out and allow them to feel loved and lovable in their messiest moments.
[00:55:54] Right. So the first one is curious, not critical. And it's really just this energy of like noticing the like instant critical, right? Yeah. Then making 'em feel like nothing ever do is good enough. I do that. Mm-hmm. And shifting into curiosity, like it, it completely transforms your nervous system. First of all, it gives us access to our highest wisest self, right?
[00:56:17] Sometimes we're, if we're at a seven out of 10, we're gonna need to, we release some stress or like move our body to complete the stress cycle, to down regulate a little bit, to be able to get into full curiosity. We're gonna be just hijacked by parts sometimes, and so. That's a caveat, but trying to, instead of what is wrong with them, why would they be doing this in a very critical way?
[00:56:38] Right. Shifting into like, I wonder why. I wonder why they're feeling like they need to do this.
[00:56:43] Yeah.
[00:56:43] Right. Like lying is a really great example of this. Like parents will be like, Ugh, they're trying to manipulate me. And I'm like, Hmm, I wonder why they're not feeling like it feels safe to tell the truth.
[00:56:55] Are they afraid of your anger? Are they afraid they're gonna get, I'm not mad, I'm just like, you know, at some point we have to own that. Like maybe we're not feeling, and I say this as a freaking parenting expert and now published author and trauma therapist, and I do this to my kids. Yes. Like I will be like, Ooh, I'm not making it feel safe to tell the truth.
[00:57:12] Like it happens to all of us. This is, we are trying, we are parented away. We're trying to turn the ship around. We're gonna mess up. It's okay. But like just the shift to critical kids feel it at like the deepest level of their psyche. Yeah. When we shift into critical and like really just, I wonder why you feel like you need to act this way instead of why the hell are you acting this way?
[00:57:33] Right. That's one. The second is Stand by Them, which is one of the other five adjustments. Mm-hmm. And it's this idea, again, I don't stand by what you did. Mm-hmm. But I will always stand by you. Right. So like, again, I know you, I know this behavior is not you. Like, you're gonna have to make this right. You're gonna face the consequences of your actions, but we're gonna do that together.
[00:57:57] Yeah. Not punishing them by taking the relationship away. Right? Right. Yes. Stand by them. So curious. Not critical, and stand by them.
[00:58:06] Casey O'Roarty: I love it. I love it. And very in alignment with what comes up on this podcast. So,
[00:58:13] Maggie Nick: so glad to hear
[00:58:14] that.
[00:58:14] Casey O'Roarty: I love gathering even more voices that are, you know, speaking this language.
[00:58:20] 'cause I think it's so important. And, you know, for all of you that are listening, that are recognizing yourself in the Good Kid model, highly recommend Maggie's book for your own healing, as well as how to not continue to pass that on to your kiddos. So in closing, Maggie, I mean, I, there's so many questions that I didn't ask, but this has just been so great.
[00:58:47] Where can people find you and follow your work and get your book?
[00:58:50] Maggie Nick: So Maggie nick.com. And then I'm at Maggie with Per Spectacles on TikTok, Instagram and Facebook. But maggie nick.com is your hub.
[00:58:58] Casey O'Roarty: Okay. Maggie nick.com. And I will put that in the show notes. Is that where they can get their hands on your book too?
[00:59:04] Is your book out? It's out.
[00:59:06] Maggie Nick: It's out and it's a available everywhere books are sold.
[00:59:08] Casey O'Roarty: Amazing, amazing. And my final question that I ask all my guests is, what does Joyful Courage mean to you in the context of the Good Kid work?
[00:59:20] Maggie Nick: So there's something I say to myself when, especially when I'm feeling the rage rising or I feel like parts of me are starting to see my kid as like bad manipulative, trying to get away with it, you know?
[00:59:32] And I'm falling into the way we were all parented and it kind of, it like, it doesn't jerk me in like a chaotic way. It like kind of grounds me and. Because I think one of the most courageous things we can do as parents is to learn how to love the parts of our kids that feel hardest to love within us, right?
[00:59:53] And so the question I ask myself or the thing I say to myself is they're asking you, can you love me? Even like this? Right. Like at the end of the day, my job right now is to hold my boundary and be a confident leader and love them through this and make them feel like they, I do love this side of you. I won't let the, let it hurt people.
[01:00:15] I won't let you hurt people in things, but like, can you love me even like this? Like, and I do. There's a re-parenting side of this too, right? Where the unlovable sides of me when they come up, it's like, oh, I'm gonna love her. I'm gonna figure out a way. If I can't right now, I'm gonna, next therapy appointment, we're gonna get into this, like this commitment to really loving the parts of me that feel the most unlovable.
[01:00:37] But I think it is been, it's been brutal. Glennon, Doyle's, word for bru. Brutal and beautiful. It's been beautiful. Yeah. But there is something really joyful. I do get kind of bitch slapped a little bit too about like, ah, I got something so different. But these moments where my kids are just like mm-hmm. At their quote, worst.
[01:00:55] And I'm like, I love that part too.
[01:00:57] Mm-hmm.
[01:00:58] Like there's so, and I really, I can't think of anything braver or more courageous.
[01:01:01] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. Yeah. Beautiful. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for being here. I'm so glad to have had you on the show.
[01:01:07] Maggie Nick: Oh
[01:01:08] my gosh. Thank you for having me.
[01:01:10] Casey O'Roarty: And listeners, just something to hold this week.
[01:01:12] Notice. Notice any moments where you're finding yourself more concerned with how your teen is behaving than how they're feeling. Just notice that's the invitation. 'cause noticing is where it starts. And bonus points, if you can shift into that. Curious, not critical space. To find out what's happening under the surface with them.
[01:01:35] So I'll
[01:01:36] leave you with that. Thanks so much for being here.
[01:01:44] Thank you so much for listening. Thank you to my Sprout partners, Julietta and Alana. Thank you Danielle, for supporting with the show notes as well as Chris Mann and the team at Pod Shaper for all the support with getting the show out there and making it sound good. As I mentioned, sharing is caring. If you're willing to pass on this episode to others or take a few minutes to rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, it helps other parents find this useful content.
[01:02:11] Be sure to check out what we have going on for parents of kids of all ages and sign up for our newsletter to stay [email protected]. I see you doing all the things. I believe in you. See you next time.