Eps 649: Teen Coaching with Anna Kashner

“Joyful courage is the act of showing up authentically in this messy, hard, beautiful time of raising young people — without pretending we have all the answers or can fix everything. The courage part is letting them struggle and figure things out, even when we really want to fix it. And then finding the joy in the moments of connection and growth, and the breakthroughs — even when the bigger picture is uncertain. It takes so much courage to step back, trust the process, and believe in the capacity of our young people to become who they’re meant to be.”

— Anna Kashner, Bolster Coaching

Resources mentioned:

• Bolster Coaching — Anna Kashner’s coaching practice: bolstercoaching.net
• @bolstercoaching — Anna on Instagram
• Youth Coaching Institute / Dr. Leah Mazzola — Anna’s youth coaching certification training
• Positive Discipline — Jane Nelsen (referenced by Casey)

Transcription

[00:00:00] Casey O'Roarty: Welcome, welcome, welcome to the Joyful Courage Podcast. This is a place where parents of tweens and teens come to find inspiration, information, and encouragement in the messy terrain of adolescents this season of parenting. Is no joke. And while the details of what we're all moving through might be slightly different, we are indeed having a very collective experience.
[00:00:30] This is a space where we center building, relationship, nurturing life skills, and leaning into our own personal growth and man. The opportunities abound, right. My name is Casey Ody. I am a parent coach, positive discipline lead trainer, and captain of the adolescent ship over at Sprout Bowl. I'm also a speaker and a published author.
[00:00:53] I've been working with parents and families for over 20 years. And continue to navigate my own experience of being a mom with my two young adult kids. I'm so honored that you're here and listening. Please give back to the podcast by sharing it with friends or on social media rate and review us on Apple or Spotify.
[00:01:13] Word of mouth is how we grow. Thank you so, so much. Enjoy the show.
[00:01:23] Hi everybody. Welcome back to the podcast. Today we are diving into a conversation that I know so many of you have been waiting for. One that sits right at the intersection of teen development and parent child relationship. And the very real question of how do we actually support our kids when life feels so hard for them.
[00:01:46] We're talking about teen life coaching today, what it is, how it's different from therapy, who it works best for. We're also gonna spend some real time in the territory of negative thinking because if you have a teenager in your house, you know what I'm talking about? There's that spiral, the I can't do anything, right?
[00:02:06] The catastrophizing, the shutting down, and not from us, but actually from them, it's painful to witness and most of us, despite our best intentions, are handling it in ways that might actually be making it worse. So my guest today is gonna give us a fresh lens on all of it, and she's gonna leave you with practical things you can actually try starting today.
[00:02:28] Anna Kaner is a certified youth and young adult life coach and executive function coach, and a lifetime longtime educator who is passionate about helping young people figure out who they are and how to move forward with confidence. She's got over two decades of experience and works closely with teens, young adults, and their families on everything from motivation, executive functioning, and academic success to stress.
[00:02:57] Friendships, relationships, and decision making. Her approach is deeply human, practical, and rooted in the belief that growth happens when people feel seen, supported, and empowered, which I love, and I know you're gonna love her. I can't wait for you to hear this conversation. Hi Anna. Welcome to the podcast.
[00:03:17] Anna Kashner: Hi, Casey. Thank you so much for having me.
[00:03:20] Casey O'Roarty: Well, I am, I feel really honored to be your first dip into this space, and I just know that this conversation's gonna be so useful, so I'm glad you're here. Tell us a little bit more about you specifically, what drew you to working with teens and what does it look like day to day?
[00:03:39] Anna Kashner: Great. Yes. Well, thank you. My entire career started from when I was in high school. I did a lot of work with teaching with younger students, but then right after college, started working as a high school teacher and I worked as a high school teacher for about 10 years. Um, and during that time just had so many meaningful relationships with the young people I was working with.
[00:03:59] I was that teacher that had kinda like the safe classroom. Mm-hmm. Um. And so they, like the students would come to my classroom during lunchtime. There's a lot that happened in there, but I realized that I really enjoyed the relationship with them and they seemed to gravitate toward me as well.
[00:04:16] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:04:16] Anna Kashner: Mm-hmm. Um, and the school I worked at, and a lot of the schools I worked at, actually a lot of the issues that young people were dealing with at the time, I really saw them as. Public health issues more than their own individual issues that are family's issues or even a community level issue. They were, you know, things that, uh, were like teen pregnancy and chronic illness and violence in the community and really wanted to start working on a different level.
[00:04:44] And so I went back to school to get a public health degree and really looking at, you know. How public health intersects with, uh, systems level change policy and all the things that influence people's lives, like racism and sexism and homophobia, and ended up working, uh, in sexual health and education for many years.
[00:05:07] Um, really trying to institute change around that topic, but also through a youth lens, I guess you could say. Doing youth leadership work, youth development advocacy policy. I loved that work so much and really proud that a lot of the work we did really impacted individual lives, but also populations. And one of the pieces of research that always kept coming back to me was.
[00:05:31] That, which I'm sure many of the listeners have heard this before, and I'm sure you know this as well, but just that for young people having a trusted adult, and I think there's some number, like two or three, makes a critical difference in their lives or really can make a critical difference, you know, for their success.
[00:05:45] And I feel like coaching can really provide that for young people. Just that undivided, tailored attention to, to that one young person through a trusted adult, especially on the journey of adolescents. And so. When I was transitioning out of my nonprofit job in nonprofit world, I started taking youth certification, youth coaching certification course.
[00:06:04] And you know, well, it's kind of obvious, I just was struck by the rate of change I could see.
[00:06:10] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:06:11] Anna Kashner: Working one-on-one with young folks through coaching, different than the population level work I was doing before. It was just super satisfying and well, I loved the work I was doing before, um, I was just a bit.
[00:06:21] Further away from the individual young people. And I don't know, just like now to see these young people experience, they can experience huge change in such a short amount of time when they have that one-on-one support. And so that is what has made me really excited about the work. So I started a business called Bolster Coaching, um, and the name really represents the.
[00:06:42] Being that bolster. Yeah. For young people, um, like the scaffolding and so thinking the support, and then providing scaffolding that many young people, young adults, need to get from where they are to their, where they wanna be. I see young people typically between the ages of 14 and 26 or 27, who are for whatever reason, stuck or stressed or just unsure about what's next.
[00:07:05] Uh, most people come to me for friend issues around friendships, school or work success, getting some, uh, coaching around executive function skills, uh, if they're going through transitions. Uh. Figuring out their future. And my approach is really just, I'm an unconditionally positive. I hold them in unconditionally positive regard.
[00:07:27] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:07:28] Anna Kashner: I approach it with their, our relationship with no judgment. I see myself as a supportive partner through their journey of adolescence. I also think it's important to mention that I'm a parent. My daughter is nine. She's very spirited, love her so much. Mm-hmm. And I've always felt like she's been a teenager since she was about four.
[00:07:44] A lot of the typical adolescent traits, she's got a great eye roll down, but she's teaching me a lot. Especially about how important other trusted or adults are in her life. 'cause they can get her to do things, uh, the things that she needs to do in ways that I really can't. So
[00:08:00] Casey O'Roarty: yeah. I love what you just said about holding your clients in unconditional positive regard.
[00:08:07] I think about that a lot with the families that I work with and really supporting parents in putting that lens on as well, especially when it feels like there's so much happening that. Is not positive. I've been finding, especially over the last couple of weeks, actually, like reminding people to look.
[00:08:29] This is a whole child and what's challenging right now is a sliver.
[00:08:34] Anna Kashner: Yeah.
[00:08:34] Casey O'Roarty: Or maybe a big piece, right? But not the whole, it's a piece of who this person, this young person is showing up as right now. And so let's get kind of down to the basics, right? Because there, it's confusing, and I know I navigate this too.
[00:08:50] I'm a parent coach. I'm not a therapist, right? You're a teen coach. You're not a therapist. Executive function. I think that if we aren't in a household where there's a lot of conversation around executive functioning skills, we might not be super tuned into that. So can you give us the basics on what is coaching?
[00:09:13] Anna Kashner: Yeah.
[00:09:13] Casey O'Roarty: And what does executive function coaching specifically, what does that mean? How do you explain that to a parent who maybe hasn't heard of it or doesn't have an understanding?
[00:09:23] Anna Kashner: Yeah. Great. Thank you for that question. I do think. Especially during the pandemic, like youth mental health got so highlighted for very good reason.
[00:09:34] Mm-hmm. And I know therapists just exploded with clients looking for them or parents looking for support for their teenagers and young adults.
[00:09:41] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:09:42] Anna Kashner: And included, you included
[00:09:43] Casey O'Roarty: on that list, the wait
[00:09:44] Anna Kashner: list were very discouraging wait list for long and I don't think a lot of people know about coaching for young people.
[00:09:50] Mm-hmm. And so I really appreciate that question. Coaching is different and I'll talk a little bit later about how it's different, but. Coaching is very present and future focused and goal oriented. It's really like goal oriented support for teens and young adults who are navigating things in life like they are, like their identity or decision making, the relationships, um, like I mentioned before, big transitions.
[00:10:13] It's usually young folks who want to get better in some way, have better friendships, wanna figure out like where they're gonna go to school. Some, I see young adults as well, some who are early in their career and they're not sure if their job path is the right path. Some people who are moving, changing schools, things like that.
[00:10:31] And so coaching is really designed to help young people get clarity on who they are and what their values are, what their strengths are, what they want, and then to build confidence and develop the skills to get there. And the young person actually. Leads the work, which I love. Like they get to choose what they focus on.
[00:10:49] And then as a coach, I help them develop small, manageable steps for how to get there. And so the major benefit is no matter what they come to see me for, they're building skills that are so important in life. And some of that's like autonomy, getting more confidence, learning to trust themselves, have more resilience, and learn some problem solving skills.
[00:11:10] Uh, executive function coaching is similar in some ways, but specific toward, you know, all young people's prefrontal cortex is developing, and that's where our executive function skills live. Those are things like planning, uh, task management, organizing, managing your time, regulating your emotions, focusing.
[00:11:31] I recently heard someone share it very simply of saying, having the skills to know what to do, how to do it, and how to finish it.
[00:11:39] Casey O'Roarty: Hmm.
[00:11:39] Anna Kashner: Sounds simple, but anyone with teenagers or even younger children know,
[00:11:44] Casey O'Roarty: yeah.
[00:11:44] Anna Kashner: Knows that it's not that easy. Um, say
[00:11:46] Casey O'Roarty: those three things again.
[00:11:47] Anna Kashner: The skills to know what to do,
[00:11:49] Casey O'Roarty: what to do,
[00:11:50] Anna Kashner: how to do it, and then how to get it done.
[00:11:53] Casey O'Roarty: Okay.
[00:11:54] Anna Kashner: Yeah, I mean, we probably could all use some support with that. Yeah, for sure. And a lot of, with coaching with young people and the education I give parents, it's so applicable to adults as well. But this type of coaching works really well for young folks who maybe aren't doing as well as they know they can in school or work.
[00:12:11] Um, and they just don't know where to start. So. With them, I'll identify which skills, like I have them do a self-assessment because they usually know, like, I don't know how to be organized. I don't, I can't get my assignments in on time. I procrastinate till the last minute. Um, the way I study is by, you know, rereading the notes over and over and over again.
[00:12:29] And so we, we identify those things. Um. And I offer them strategies and skills, and oftentimes we'll do it together at first, and then they start to do it on their own. And I'll serve as an accountability partner throughout and. With executive function skills and also a lot with friendship coaching. I've seen quite a few young people who are neurodivergent in some way, and I was just gonna
[00:12:51] Casey O'Roarty: ask Yeah.
[00:12:52] About
[00:12:52] Anna Kashner: that. Yes. Like, yeah. So they, some have a diagnosis, some don't, some think they do, some have diagnosed themselves, but somewhere, you know, on the A DHD spectrum or the autism spectrum. Mm-hmm. Um, and having a coach and really an accountability partner, uh, to support them throughout this time in their lives can really make a big difference.
[00:13:10] And so,
[00:13:11] Casey O'Roarty: yeah. Love that.
[00:13:11] Anna Kashner: Yeah.
[00:13:12] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. As I was listening to you talk, I wanna bring a distinction in and see what you think about this, because I definitely have. Clients who believe that what their teen needs most is a therapist and therapy, and for whatever reason, there's kids that are resistant or not resistant.
[00:13:33] And so what I, as I was listening to you and thinking about that distinction between coaching and therapy, I was hearing in my mind two questions where the therapy question moves towards answering, why am I, me? Mm-hmm. I feel like coaching is more around the question of how can I be me?
[00:13:58] Anna Kashner: Yeah.
[00:13:59] Casey O'Roarty: Right.
[00:13:59] Absolutely. And my, one of my own kids each, you know, recently shared about, oh, I feel like it's less of a fight against who I am, and it's more of, oh. I am this way, right? Like, this is just my personality. This isn't, this isn't something to fix. And it was, you know, she kind of said it in passing, but it was big.
[00:14:22] That's, yeah, that's a major shift. And I wonder sometimes if parents are like, okay, well they need therapy, but I guess, you know, I can pitch coaching. Mm-hmm. And maybe they think it's a shortcut or a substitute, you know? How would you continue to kind of tease apart the distinction between, you know, quickly between coaching and therapy?
[00:14:42] Anna Kashner: Yeah. Well, I mean, I think both therapy and coaching have their place for different types of kids. Many people do coaching and therapy together. Both can be amazing. Some can be, you know, more appropriate, depend depending on who the young person is. I had a, the, the teacher, uh, who is the owner or the leader of the Youth Coaching Institute.
[00:15:03] Basically she was my teacher, Dr. Leah Mazzola. Really, I liked how she explained it. She had like a continuum of. When to seek therapy and when coaching is more appropriate. And so,
[00:15:14] Casey O'Roarty: oh,
[00:15:14] Anna Kashner: awesome. Um, if you had a continuum with like, let's say zero is in the middle and then negative 10 is on the left and positive 10 is on the right.
[00:15:23] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:15:23] Anna Kashner: So if you can envision that the negative numbers are more in the therapy zone, so from being like a negative one to a negative 10, this is for. Young people who have experienced trauma, maybe have severe depression or anxiety who aren't functioning in certain areas of their life, um, like don't wanna go to school, can't get out of bed, or so anxious, it's like impacting their life in a really negative way.
[00:15:46] Maybe they need a diagnosis or need some kind of treatment medication. And like you said, it really focuses on the why and focuses on emotional healing processing. The past coaching can be a lot more appropriate or more appropriate in some ways for. Young folks who are on that other side of the continuum, like zero to let's say 10 is thriving.
[00:16:08] Mm-hmm. So being like a positive one to positive five or six. Um, so they're functioning, they're okay. But they're, they could do a lot better. Or they want, they either want to do better or they know they could do better. And so it's very focused on the present and the future.
[00:16:22] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:16:22] Anna Kashner: Uh, really focused on skill building.
[00:16:24] It's very action oriented. There's not a lot of talk about feelings. This is something that some young people, they don't wanna do, that they don't wanna talk about their feelings for an hour. And we don't, I mean, I will ask and like, there's sometimes that is a question, but it's not the whole.
[00:16:39] Casey O'Roarty: It's not like, let's roll around.
[00:16:41] No,
[00:16:42] Anna Kashner: no,
[00:16:42] Casey O'Roarty: no. Where's this coming from? It's just more of an acknowledgement, like, yeah, it makes sense.
[00:16:46] Anna Kashner: Yeah, totally. And so. Coaching is really for teens who, you know, are somewhere on that side of the continuum. The positive side who struggle, like with motivation or organization follow through. Um, maybe they're stuck around goals in their life, um, or have a hard decision to make, and they're stuck with that.
[00:17:03] Mm-hmm. Those who want more independence to, uh, want better friendships or relationships and maybe, you know, want someone to be in accountability. Partner, and I don't know if that's, that's certainly not the phrasing they would use, but to have, you know, a trusted adult who they can talk to each week to check in about what action it took and how it went.
[00:17:23] Yeah. And reflect on those things. And you know, a lot of my clients do have therapists as well, and if they give me permission, I will collaborate with the therapist to support them all, wherever they're all on that spectrum and making the distinction mm-hmm. Between, mm-hmm. What the therapist does and what the coach does.
[00:17:43] And I will say coaching is really not for, like I said, teenagers who are, uh, experiencing really severe trauma, depression, anxiety, or if they don't, they're not ready or they don't wanna make changes or take action. Right. Another. Category of young people that coaching is not for is if their parents are forcing them to do it, to achieve an outcome that the parent wants that isn't gonna work.
[00:18:08] Yeah. It has to be something the teen wants to do.
[00:18:20] Casey O'Roarty: Do you ever navigate, I, you know, I have clients who are, you know, feel as though this is exactly whether it's coaching or therapy. Mm-hmm. Somebody else going to get help is exactly what their team needs. And we talk about what you just said around, you know, you can't force them to take advantage of what's being offered.
[00:18:40] And I will have parents push back and say, yeah, but at least if they're in the room, there's still that possibility.
[00:18:46] Anna Kashner: Mm-hmm.
[00:18:47] Casey O'Roarty: What do you think about that?
[00:18:49] Anna Kashner: That's a good question. I'd be curious to hear what a therapist thinks about that. Mm-hmm. I, I don't think coaching can work for that. They have to be an active participant.
[00:18:57] Yeah. And so I've heard of young people sitting in a therapist's office and just sitting there mm-hmm. For weeks. I mean, I've got family members who've done that. Um, and eventually parent has decided this isn't going anywhere. Um,
[00:19:09] Casey O'Roarty: yeah.
[00:19:10] Anna Kashner: But yeah, with coaching, they have to have some kind of active participation.
[00:19:16] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. And I, I will say, usually it shows up for me when one parent wants to do parent coaching and the other one Oh, gets dragged in. And I have to say straight at the beginning. Yeah. I am not here to convince anyone of anything. Yeah,
[00:19:28] Anna Kashner: no.
[00:19:28] Casey O'Roarty: So if that's, yeah, that's kind of one of the things that, yeah. And
[00:19:32] Anna Kashner: I will say with coaching, and I'm sure with therapy too, like baby steps are okay.
[00:19:37] Mm-hmm. Like taking the smallest. Smallest little step toward change is perfectly fine. It's, but you have to be willing to do that.
[00:19:47] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah, for sure. Well, and let's kind of slide into what might be showing up at home for that parent who then comes to this place of like, ah, help my kid. I read on a blog post of yours that was all about combating negative thinking and.
[00:20:08] What I really appreciated was how you named that negative thinking has actual evolutionary roots, that it's not a flaw, which it always helps me to remember like, oh, right, I don't need to hold this, as you know, so tightly, but it's really what you call it is a feature that got stuck. So can you talk a little bit about what negative thinking looks like in the teens that you work with and.
[00:20:37] Why it might be hard for them to shake it. And even as I ask this question and I speak it out loud, I'm thinking like, oh, this is actually, I'm really excited to hear your answer. Because we all get stuck.
[00:20:50] Anna Kashner: We all do. Yes.
[00:20:51] Casey O'Roarty: We all get stuck. Yeah.
[00:20:52] Anna Kashner: Yes. And it is, I mean, I also find it helpful to know that like it's an evolutionary survival mechanism that our ancestors, they had to think about danger.
[00:21:06] I mean, we do too. Like it's not just, you know, however many thousands of years ago. It's also present day. But you know, back then how it developed in us was like many people have heard of the saber-tooth tiger or the wooly mammoth that is, you know, right around the corner as they're out hunting and gather or gathering food.
[00:21:26] So we, you know, we had to use that to survive. To think, oh, there's gonna be this tiger ready to pounce. So I have to think about all the things that can go wrong, what danger I could be in so I can protect myself. And I think, you know, now, depending on life experience, there's really real reasons why this continues to show up for people.
[00:21:43] And it can be modeled for us. It can be it. I mean, definitely be part of our evolution. It can also be part of our history and negative things that have happened to us. And also depending on, you know, how our families or our parents. Manage this, we may have learned that as well. And you know, like the one modern version I've seen, and it may seem trivial, but it's so real to young people, is I've had several.
[00:22:06] Uh, young people just bring up this real negative thinking and fear around social media and something like, uh, not getting enough, like really afraid to post on Instagram because they're afraid they're not gonna get enough likes, or they do it, they don't get enough likes and it reinforces all these negative thoughts that they have about themselves.
[00:22:24] Yeah. And it's still legitimately really stressful. And so the problem with it is that when young people get stuck in these negative thought patterns, it can really prevent. Action and trying to approaches and having success.
[00:22:38] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. 'cause I'm imagining even as you say that there's this like clenching.
[00:22:42] Anna Kashner: Yeah.
[00:22:43] Casey O'Roarty: And that fear. That reactive closing down was useful at some point and kept us safe. I just, it's so interesting. Yeah. The way that my work goes, because like just this morning, Anna, just this morning, I let a call and started with a meditation and it was all about. The grip of fear and how to open up to hope and faith and possibility, and really that inside work of tuning into our body.
[00:23:18] Also replace, not even replacing, but just creating space for something new and different to also exist.
[00:23:27] Anna Kashner: Right?
[00:23:28] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah,
[00:23:28] Anna Kashner: and I think you know, young people too, they're particularly vulnerable because of their brain development and where it's at during that time in their lives. Their limbic system or their emotions are like fully.
[00:23:39] Fired up and online, but the prefrontal cortex, which helps them with emotional regulation is still building. Yeah. And so, so at least like a lot of, especially like social stakes can feel like life or death
[00:23:50] Casey O'Roarty: huge.
[00:23:50] Anna Kashner: Uh, which may be different. I mean, the things we're afraid of and negative about as adults are often, you know, sometimes similar, but often different.
[00:23:58] And I think just during this time of identity formation. There's constant evaluation, there's constant self-doubt. Um,
[00:24:05] Casey O'Roarty: yeah.
[00:24:05] Anna Kashner: And all of that can lead to a lot of negativity and worst case scenario thinking.
[00:24:09] Casey O'Roarty: And I don't think adults really appreciate just how deep that need to belong really is during adolescence.
[00:24:21] Anna Kashner: Yeah.
[00:24:22] Casey O'Roarty: I mean, it can override decision making. In such a real way. And then the adults are like, why would you do that? You know? Or Yeah, just walk away or just say no. And it's like you don't understand.
[00:24:38] Anna Kashner: Yeah,
[00:24:38] Casey O'Roarty: totally. To layers.
[00:24:39] Anna Kashner: Yes.
[00:24:39] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:24:40] Anna Kashner: Yeah. And I have a, a story to share if I can about that with a client.
[00:24:44] I'll just call her Mira, to, you know, to protect confidentiality. But this is the young person I've worked with who she's a senior in high school. Second semester and ready to drop out of school before she graduated. Like seriously taking all of the steps to do that because of friend issues and friend trauma.
[00:25:05] And so she lost the good friends that she had. She felt like she had no one left at school and like to her, leaving the school was the only solution she could think of that was gonna make the situation better. And so she reached out to me and you know, was like, I want, I wanna kind of figure this out.
[00:25:23] Both with the decision, but also like how to make some new friends. And through coaching, you know, we did a lot of the things that I love to do were just like, which we kind of talked about a little bit before, like who are you? Like what are your values? What are your character strengths? Who are you as a friend?
[00:25:40] Who do you want as a friend? Like what character qualities are you looking for? And we got. Really into this, like trying to change the negative thinking cycle, really using cognitive behavioral therapy tools. And so that's where this comes from. But I'll just share it as an example to, yeah, I think it's just easier to understand this way.
[00:25:59] So like she comes in, she wants to make new friends, she gets caught in those automatic thinking traps. So her first thought is like, so she's like, I wanna make new prints. And then she's like, oh, they're probably not gonna like me. No one's gonna like me. These people probably already have enough friends and then start to think, well that's, it's just me a waste of time.
[00:26:16] I don't wanna feel rejected. And then, you know, closes the cycle with, well, I'm not gonna do anything about it.
[00:26:23] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:26:23] Anna Kashner: Um, and so then it's
[00:26:25] Casey O'Roarty: safer to just stay
[00:26:26] where
[00:26:26] Anna Kashner: I'm at. Yeah. It's safer to stay where I'm at. And so what we tried to do, or what we do do is challenge that automatic thought, that automatic negative thought.
[00:26:32] So starting with, I wanna make friends, and then like, okay, what's, what are some different ways we can think about this? Like maybe. You don't actually know what they're thinking, you know? And so having her say that to herself, like, I don't actually know what they're thinking, if they want friend or if they want friends.
[00:26:48] I don't know that. And so it gives it a new meaning, like, well, there's a chance maybe they will wanna be friends with me.
[00:26:53] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:26:54] Anna Kashner: And then it requires, you know, some bravery on her part to step into what I call the growth zone, where it's out of the comfort zone. It's not, I'm not asking her to. Uh, go into the panic zone where she's doing something that makes her highly uncomfortable, but to choose something that's fairly manageable and make a step forward with a new behavior.
[00:27:16] So instead of doing nothing, now she's gonna do something like smile at somebody or say hello or could ask somebody a question and she's sitting up with them at lunch. And so, you know, with this particular person, it didn't happen overnight. She stayed at school. At the school, she made that decision and has some potential friends that she's working on right now.
[00:27:37] Mm-hmm. And it's, it's, you know, she's had some conversations, she's shared some text message, she has some plans to hang out. So it's building and, you know, getting out of that negative thinking trap was, was one tool that we used.
[00:27:49] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. You know, and I, what I think is so unique and special and hard about adolescents is everything's the first time.
[00:27:58] Anna Kashner: Right.
[00:27:59] Casey O'Roarty: So you have, you find yourself in high school and your friend group falls apart and you're alone and it doesn't, you've never had the experience of moving through that and having it swing back into a place of feeling secure and feeling connected. Yeah. So why would you think that it would result that way?
[00:28:22] You know, or, you know, I think about heartbreak, those first heartbreaks and how hard. They hit when it's the first time because they don't know that they can feel that bad and then mm-hmm. Come out of it. So I'm thinking about the kids that, you know, what a gift to have you to support them in noticing and recognizing and moving through the negative thinking.
[00:28:48] And then there's the kids that are at home with their parents who I know you guys, I know you listeners, we all have. You know these huge hearts and we want what's best for our kiddos, and we don't want them to be in pain, and we want them to have perspective, and we want them to know that it's not always gonna be like this.
[00:29:05] And. Sometimes our response actually makes it worse. So what do you, when you think about your clients or just your experience, what do you see in the dynamic between teens and their parents in response to negative thinking that actually keeps kids in that stuck place?
[00:29:26] Anna Kashner: Yes. I wanna start by saying. So I post videos on Instagram that shares information, tips with parents.
[00:29:35] And one of my friends who had some teenagers contact me recently and she's like, you must be the best parent. Your house must be so calm. And I was like, girl, no it's not. It is like, I just wanna put the caveat out there. It is hard as a parent, we are reactionary, we have our own work to do. It's, we get triggered by our kids.
[00:29:58] We were parented in a certain way. Sure. And so I say this like as a coach, it's so much easier for me to do that with other people's kids than it is for me to do with my own, because my daughter ever listens to this. Someday she's gonna be like, what is she talking about? What a liar. But
[00:30:15] Casey O'Roarty: it does. Well, listen, I'll say even Jane Nelson who wrote.
[00:30:18] The book, positive Discipline. She has a story of coming unglued on her daughter Mary, who's a friend of mine, and walking into her room later. And Mary's just highlighting in the positive discipline book, all the hypocrisies, oh my God, that her mother, you know, and this is like the queen, the guru. So yes, we're keeping it real.
[00:30:37] Thank you for that, Anna.
[00:30:38] Anna Kashner: Yeah, totally. And like we all love our children,
[00:30:40] Casey O'Roarty: of
[00:30:40] Anna Kashner: course. Um, but some of the things that I see are, there's a few of them. One is like. Just rushing it to reassure them that everything's gonna be okay or that they're great or they're wonderful. So just, you know, whatever it is, it's like, no, but you're great.
[00:30:54] Like you're a great friend. You should have so many friends. It how it lands. It's more of like an invalidation and the young person might be thinking like, you don't get it. Mm-hmm. And it can really shut them down. And so like instead, like, I just think so many times, especially when young people are.
[00:31:12] Elevated or dysregulated, they just wanna be hurt. So you can just say, that's really hard, or it's okay to feel bad about this.
[00:31:20] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:31:21] Anna Kashner: Another thing, and this is often done, at least for me when I'm talking to my friends, I really try not to do this to my child, but we may do this to our kids as well, is like.
[00:31:31] Dismissing or minimizing the emotional reaction. So just like, oh, you're so dramatic, or It's not that bad. Or When I was your age and I had this thing that was so much worse. And it's like we're trying to give them perspective and to your point, like we have lived longer and have learned that things can get better and that they do get better, and they haven't yet a lot of the times.
[00:31:51] And so it's just. Again, they may really experience that as judgment or rejection. Um, especially if we're comparing it to ourselves, it's not about us. And so what they're going through. Yeah. And uh, you know, just it's again, skipping their emotional reality that's happening in that moment. And again, you know, just acknowledging it's like, this feels really big right now, doesn't it?
[00:32:13] Or just like. You don't have to. You know, the other thing that people do, and I, I did this yesterday, which is like jumping into fix it mode. So my daughter came home from school. She had put a lot of work into applying for this program at her school and didn't get into it and was feeling really sad and really bad about it.
[00:32:32] And I was just in fix it mode. So I'm like, and I even asked her, which wasn't fair at the time. I was like, can I give you some suggestions? And she said yes. Which. You know, I don't, she probably didn't feel comfortable saying no.
[00:32:45] Casey O'Roarty: Right. Valid.
[00:32:46] Anna Kashner: Um, and it totally backfired. I was like, do this and do that, and here's the idea and here's the idea.
[00:32:51] And she was just, she just shut down and did not wanna talk about it anymore. And I realized later that was not the right approach. Like, we often hear, and I say this to parents, and I do this as a coach, it's like, connect first. Mm-hmm. And then at some point, either they'll come to you or you can offer it when they're.
[00:33:09] Have a few days away from whatever it is.
[00:33:11] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:33:12] Anna Kashner: And then the other thing I've heard you talk about this, and I think again this is a big practice, is just when we get emotionally activated, it's not a strategy, but it's like our own nervous system reacting and like these are our children and so we care a lot and like can really feel.
[00:33:27] We think we can feel their pain and it's something we just really have to take pay attention to because it does make it about us and not them. When we're showing our fear and our frustration and our intensity can ramp up their intensity, and like if we're here to be their anchor, they lose that when we are.
[00:33:45] Spinning ourselves. And so
[00:33:46] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. Because now they have to take care of they're, now they're responsible for us as well.
[00:33:51] Anna Kashner: Exactly.
[00:33:51] Casey O'Roarty: My daughter got really good at calling out, like, don't make this about you. Yeah. And I didn't even, oftentimes some of my responses to her I didn't even realize were centering me.
[00:34:01] Anna Kashner: Yeah.
[00:34:02] Casey O'Roarty: Right. Or she was, you know, one of the things that I thought I was being so useful, like, hey, you know, maybe get outside and move your body. And what I came to learn in my own work. Was how dismissive that was. Basically the message was, there's lots of things you can do to change this and you're just not doing it
[00:34:20] Anna Kashner: right.
[00:34:21] Casey O'Roarty: And meanwhile, this was a kid who was deep in depression that I didn't understand. Right. You know, I didn't, I did not understand. I think another one of those dismissive pieces, which I heard a lot from well-intentioned people giving me unsolicited advice was, well, doesn't she know that every teenager feels this way?
[00:34:42] Anna Kashner: Right.
[00:34:43] Casey O'Roarty: And I remember thinking to myself, well, first of all, no they don't. And second of all, like there's something really big happening here. This is not just the surface, like I'm a teenager and I'm somewhat insecure in the world. This was like caged. You know, anxiety caging her. So yeah. I appreciate this and I appreciate, you know, kind of the flip side and we'll talk more about this.
[00:35:09] So if we are gonna show up for our kiddos mm-hmm. What are some of the other things in the moment that parents can do? Again, with that caveat of we know that it's hard, we know that part of it is for us. Learning how to be with our young person's discomfort, discouragement. Yes. You know, embarrassment. We want them to learn that.
[00:35:34] Yes. We actually turns out have a lot of work to do around that because man, most of us are deeply uncomfortable with our kids' discomfort and pain and suffering, which makes sense and. Can, it can get in the way of how we respond. So what are some other practical tools for in the moment when that negative spiral is happening?
[00:35:58] Anna Kashner: Yeah. Well, so I have a few of them. I mean, one of them isn't, this isn't so much in the moment, but it's more like just in general how you model dealing with negativity or things that are hard for you.
[00:36:09] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:36:10] Anna Kashner: Or when things didn't go your way. So. You know, I think that modeling can really help 'cause your learning by watching you handle your own inner critic or you know, whatever kinda negative thinking that you might have.
[00:36:22] So,
[00:36:22] Casey O'Roarty: yeah,
[00:36:22] Anna Kashner: maybe like verbalizing it out loud or sharing with them, or, you know, saying something like, okay, I'm so frustrated with this. Okay, I'm gonna like just take it one step at a time. Or like, oh, I didn't get this job. I'm gonna like reset. I'm going to, you know, take care of myself and then I'm gonna like, get back out there.
[00:36:40] Yeah. Or whatever the thing is. Um, but just showing them that it's like you are normalizing it and then responding to it and going from there. Like, I shared some of the previous examples, like just validating them, like that feels like the most important first step. And then gave me it curious like what like.
[00:37:01] You know, that sounds really frustrating. Like what part about this feels the hardest for you right now? Or when did this start feeling that way? And it can just give you more insight into what's going on as well.
[00:37:13] Casey O'Roarty: I think that is such a, like top of the toolbox combo validation into curiosity.
[00:37:20] Anna Kashner: Yes.
[00:37:21] Casey O'Roarty: Especially when done with. True authenticity.
[00:37:26] Anna Kashner: Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely.
[00:37:26] Casey O'Roarty: You know, not as a ploy or a manipulation tool, but really truly like. I want this kid to feel seen.
[00:37:33] Anna Kashner: Mm-hmm.
[00:37:34] Casey O'Roarty: And I want more information, but I also want them, 'cause when we use curiosity, we're helping them also mine for
[00:37:44] Anna Kashner: Totally.
[00:37:45] Casey O'Roarty: What actually their experience was.
[00:37:47] Yeah. Yeah.
[00:37:48] Anna Kashner: Absolutely. Another one that I really like, and this is really connected to the whole, like having growth mindset is adding the word yet to mm-hmm. You know, the situation. So this is. You know, uh, an example from my own life is my child's been struggling with math and she's, you know, I'm bad at math.
[00:38:05] I suck at math. And, you know, my first thing is like, I wanna be like, no, you don't, like, you're not bad at math. And so just having reframed that of like, well, it, you're still building that skill, or You haven't figured this out yet. And I just keep that on repeat and I'm waiting for her to say it herself, but I hoping that that's going to, you know, like integrate into her perspective on hard things.
[00:38:27] Another thing is like. You know, I described that sort of the behavior, changing your thinking around negativity and instead of assuming the worst, like looking at it with some curiosity or challenging that thought. And so that I think can also be done with your kid when they're in the right mind space.
[00:38:46] Like not in the moment. Yeah, for sure. Not when they're triggered, like maybe a couple days later or whatever, but revisiting the situation and just like. You know, like challenging something, some of those negative thinking traps of overgeneralizing or assuming the worst or you know, those types of things.
[00:39:02] And so. You know, just asking like what evidence do you have to support that thought or mm-hmm. Is there anything that doesn't fit with that story or, one thing that I love is getting them outside of their head and asking them, like, how would you, what advice would you give a friend? Or what would you say to your friend if they were coming to you with this kind of thinking?
[00:39:19] Mm-hmm. Because it then takes them out of it and they can be a lot more generous with a friend than they can't
[00:39:24] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:39:24] Anna Kashner: To themselves. And then, you know, another one that I think is also important is just. This is a challenge too, is just really celebrating their effort and often over the outcome. So like they put a lot of work into things they don't always get the outcome they want.
[00:39:40] And so acknowledging that, honoring that, and then hopefully like reflecting on what would you do differently? Or you know, what did you learn from this? And I think that can just really build a sense of persistence and reduce maybe some fear of failure.
[00:40:05] Casey O'Roarty: It is so interesting. Always timely. Mm-hmm. I have been thinking a lot about how, you know, and you've alluded to this as well, like change doesn't happen overnight and with parenting. We want the tool that's going to change things overnight.
[00:40:23] Anna Kashner: Right.
[00:40:23] Casey O'Roarty: And one of the positive discipline pillars is trusting the process.
[00:40:28] And so I've got this 23-year-old who is a junior in college and she took a, uh, microbiology final yesterday. She's taking something hard. Insane. Classes. Classes, first of all. Yeah. Like, oh my god. Not on the easy track that I was on with sociology, but she was, you know, she had taken a final, she got the results.
[00:40:54] While it was, the results were better as far as how much higher her grade was from the average. It still was, she wasn't super satisfied and she was just talking through how she had gone on a run and you know, she just said to herself like, I, you know, I could have studied more. I could have. And I was listening to her kind of reflecting on this and I said, wow.
[00:41:21] I think it's really cool that you're recognizing how your effort translated to the grade you got, because it would be really easy to be pissed at the teacher pissed at the content, you know? And she was cute. She was like, oh, I wanted to,
[00:41:38] Anna Kashner: yeah.
[00:41:39] Casey O'Roarty: And on my run I just kept telling myself, be honest with yourself here.
[00:41:42] And so the reason I'm sharing is. You know, you might have a 16 year, you might be listening with a 16-year-old who's really not taking accountability and blaming everybody else, and you're worried and you're frustrated. And I think what's really important is we keep being like the external self-assessment with our curiosity, with that validation that it we're the external voice that slowly becomes.
[00:42:12] You know, that internal voice or increasing the likelihood Right, right. Of the development. Yeah, that's totally, that's like be real about it. Yeah. Um, and you know, and while it wasn't, you know, 'cause this same kid was my kid who did drop out of high school in 11th grade and like has her whole story, you know, and now is upset at her grade.
[00:42:34] And I mean, it's just, it spins my head when I think about it and again. Having faith that what you know, the deposits you're making right now. Will and are, you know, slowly planting those seeds. We have to, like, it's spring right now, and the idea that the shoots that are coming out of the ground just magically occur.
[00:42:57] No, it's been a whole season of under the surface work. Mm-hmm. To get those shoots to the surface and. Yeah, so I'm just in, I was just inspired to, yeah,
[00:43:08] Anna Kashner: no, I think that's a super inspiring story
[00:43:10] Casey O'Roarty: and
[00:43:10] Anna Kashner: you know, she's on her way to becoming a full adult and
[00:43:13] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah,
[00:43:14] Anna Kashner: but it'll continue throughout her adulthood.
[00:43:15] 'cause there's a lot of adults that don't do that, you know, that do blame and yes, because everyone else's issue,
[00:43:22] Casey O'Roarty: when we do a positive discipline class, we start with two lists. So there's the challenges we're seeing and the gifts. We hope our kids one day learn to embody by the time they're in their late twenties.
[00:43:32] And we make this incredible list of life skills. And I look at the room or the zoom room or whatever, wherever I'm facilitating, and I say, so how many of you know adults that embody all of these skills? No, none. Right. Not even us. Right, right. But it is a direction to point the compass.
[00:43:50] Anna Kashner: Mm-hmm. Totally
[00:43:50] Casey O'Roarty: Right.
[00:43:51] Great. We wanna increase the likelihood of that skill development and it happens over time through experience in relationship. All really good. Yeah, that's really, really useful. Really useful. So my last question, and it's, you know, the one that I'm sure everybody's sitting with. Okay. And we talked about we can't force our kids into coaching.
[00:44:14] And I'm wondering if you have any ideas around how to just be in conversation Yeah. With a kid who might be a little bit ambivalent, right? Like, well, maybe, you know, where you feel like maybe there's an opening or you wanna start to kind of nurture an opening to that outside support. What would you say to those parents?
[00:44:33] Anna Kashner: Yeah. Well, I think the, the thing not to do is don't frame it as a solution to a problem that you see or that the parents see. So the. Framing should be like, this is about support. It's not about fixing you or correcting you. Instead of saying something like, you need help with this, or You're struggling, you need a coach.
[00:44:54] I would try an approach that's more like, well, I've been really thinking about ways to get you some more support. You know, not for me, but maybe from another adult that can, you know, be there for you or you know, this wouldn't be a place to fix you. It's a place to, that's yours, to help you figure things out during this time in your life.
[00:45:12] I do think sometimes coaching is more appealing than therapy. There's still like, even though it seems like, oh, there's a lot less stigma around therapy, that has been something that some parents have come to me with is like there's their teen for whatever reason, thinks there's stigma with therapy. And so sometimes coaching, uh.
[00:45:28] It doesn't have that stigma. And you know, also even for those, if you know your kid doesn't love to talk about their feelings a lot, that can be an appealing sell to them. I think, you know, one thing that I do, and probably a lot of coaches do this, is I offer, you know, a free sort of consultation or discovery session with the parent, but also with the young person independently, because I want them to fully make the choice without their parents.
[00:45:54] Influence. And so that is another thing that if a coach doesn't offer that you could potentially say like, can you, do you wanna go one time or can you go one time and then let's talk about it? Like if they're ask, they're willing to do that, but their autonomy and decision making in this whole process is super important.
[00:46:12] So giving 'em as much choice as possible, I think would be. You know, and saying stuff like, you know, this isn't what I think you should work on. You can talk about anything you want and like, or none of these things you get to decide. And you know, I think what's for parents who might have an idea of what they want their kid to work on and are worried the kid's gonna wanna work on something different, whatever they choose to talk about, they're still building like those essential skills of.
[00:46:42] Self-awareness and emotional regulation and decision making, communication, problem solving, like all of those things, no matter what the topic is, is gonna come out. And so I think that's where hopefully where parents can let go of some of the, like, I want you to go in to fix this thing.
[00:46:59] Casey O'Roarty: Right, right. I remember saying a lot 'cause I had a resistant kiddo that like, it shouldn't be this hard.
[00:47:07] Anna Kashner: Right.
[00:47:08] Casey O'Roarty: Which was that useful? I don't know. I'll ask row and get back to you on that. But you know, the, and I also think about these three prompts that I've been really kind of cycling through with different clients, because sometimes it's nice to have something in the back pocket, right?
[00:47:23] Anna Kashner: Mm-hmm.
[00:47:24] Casey O'Roarty: And even if you're just starting with, I notice.
[00:47:27] I wonder.
[00:47:29] Anna Kashner: Mm-hmm.
[00:47:29] Casey O'Roarty: Right. So I notice, here's what I'm noticing about you. Yeah. About your experience. I wonder, and this is where we can make some guesses and kind of see how it lands, and then tell me more.
[00:47:39] Anna Kashner: Yeah.
[00:47:40] Casey O'Roarty: Right. So really softening the dynamic to a place where making that suggestion around, Hey, you know, there's people that their whole career is built on seeing supporting.
[00:47:55] Teenagers. Right. You know, you get to kind of soften the landing of that by the way that you even open up.
[00:48:02] Anna Kashner: Right.
[00:48:02] Casey O'Roarty: The conversation. Yeah. And for those of you that are like, Nope, they're totally resistant, guess what? There's no window that closes on therapy and coaching. Exactly. So maybe it's not right now.
[00:48:13] Maybe that's, maybe it's life unfolding and the future that they're inside of that's going to finally prompt them. Like, I don't want this. To be my reality anymore. Yes. And
[00:48:24] Anna Kashner: I seek
[00:48:25] Casey O'Roarty: it out.
[00:48:25] Anna Kashner: Had that with young people. Like I had one young person whose parents definitely strongly influenced him to come.
[00:48:32] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:48:32] Anna Kashner: To, uh, is for executive function coaching and academic coaching. And then he wanted to stop as soon as he could. And then he found himself in trouble again and he was like, uh, can I go see Anna now? Yeah. So he then in initiated it. So he had the first experience and, and it was a positive experience, but sure it was only later when, which is kind of what you want too.
[00:48:54] Like he's recognized it and asked for help and was able to get it.
[00:48:58] Casey O'Roarty: Yes. I love that. Ah. And you know, I think that this has come up in a couple places, but I just wanna be explicit about it. This conversation is such a good reminder that our kids aren't broken. Right? Right. There's nothing to fix. They're just navigating this weird, hard.
[00:49:16] Season of life with brains that are still under construction, right? That, you know, their risk assessment is totally off their, you know, the, their lack of experience really gets in their way. It's a wild time. And for some of our kids, you know, the extra support is what they need. And you know, for some of those kids, they're willing to take it.
[00:49:41] So thank you for the work that you are doing and. For the warmth and the practicality that you brought to this conversation. I really appreciate that. And to close, I'm just wondering, I like to ask my guest this question, what does joyful courage mean to you, Anna, in this context?
[00:50:00] Anna Kashner: Yeah. Well, I had to give that some thought and I, uh, I think what it means is just the act of showing up authentically in this messy.
[00:50:10] Hard, beautiful time of raising. Mm-hmm. Young folks, adolescents, teens, and young adults. Without pretending like we have all the answers, we can fix everything. It's really, the courage part to me, is letting them struggle, figure things out, even if it's going badly, even if we wanna fix it really bad. Um, and I mean this not in the, like, if things are really like there's some serious issues going on.
[00:50:32] Sure, sure.
[00:50:32] Casey O'Roarty: In
[00:50:33] Anna Kashner: life. And then trying to find the joy in these moments of being able to connect and grow and when there's a breakthrough, even if like the, we're not sure about the bigger picture.
[00:50:42] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:50:42] Anna Kashner: Um, and just like being able to be brave enough to step back. It takes a lot of courage, you know? Yeah.
[00:50:47] Trust the process and believe in the capacity of our young people to be who they're meant to be. And
[00:50:54] Casey O'Roarty: yeah, I
[00:50:55] Anna Kashner: just think that takes so much courage, but also it will set our young people up to be more confident and independent and able to handle. Adulthood.
[00:51:04] Casey O'Roarty: Yes. Yeah. Love that. We're in a long game.
[00:51:07] Anna Kashner: We are.
[00:51:08] Casey O'Roarty: This is a long game. Where can people find you and follow your work?
[00:51:12] Anna Kashner: Well, I have a website, which is bolster coaching.net, and then I do post videos and education and tips on Instagram, which is at bolster coaching. And those are probably the best places to find me. Also can communicate with me through either of those platforms and always open to having, you know, offer a free consultation for parents for their teens about the work I do and what they're interested in.
[00:51:39] Casey O'Roarty: And do you work in person as well as for
[00:51:42] mm-hmm.
[00:51:43] Anna Kashner: Yes, I do. In person in the Seattle area. And then virtually. Anywhere in the country or the world.
[00:51:50] Casey O'Roarty: Yes. Amazing. Anna, thank you so much for hanging out with me today. This was really great, really useful.
[00:51:56] Anna Kashner: Yes. Thank you so much. It was really fun to talk to you.
[00:52:02] Casey O'Roarty: Thank you so much for listening. Thank you to my Sprout partners, Julietta and Alana. Thank you, Danielle, for supporting with the show notes as well as Chris Mann and the team at. Pod Shaper for all the support with getting the show out there and making it sound good. As I mentioned, sharing is caring. If you're willing to pass on this episode to others or take a few minutes to rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, it helps other parents find this useful content.
[00:52:30] Be sure to check out what we have going on for parents of kids of all ages and sign up for our newsletter to stay [email protected]. I see you doing all the things. I believe in you. See you next time.