Eps 650: Teen Sleep Help with Dr. Melisa Moore

“Joyful courage means maintaining hope — staying hopeful that there’s always something else to try, always somewhere else to go, and some way to connect. I have never reached a point where I thought, ‘There’s nothing else we can do.’ There is always something else to try.”
— Dr. Melisa Moore

RESOURCES MENTIONED

• Dr. Melisa Moore’s website: drmelisaMoore.com (note: one “s” in Melissa)
• Book: The Good Sleep Guide for Neurodivergent Kids by Dr. Melissa Moore — available at local bookstores, Amazon, and Barnes & Noble
• LeBron James — referenced as a public sleep advocate (great tool for sports-motivated teens)
• besproutable.com — Casey’s website for parent resources and newsletter sign-up

Transcription

JC Ep 650 (4.14.26) - Final
[00:00:00] Casey O'Roarty: Welcome, welcome, welcome to the Joyful Courage Podcast. This is a place where parents of tweens and teens come to find inspiration, information, and encouragement in the messy terrain of adolescents this season of parenting. Is no joke. And while the details of what we're all moving through might be slightly different, we are indeed having a very collective experience.
[00:00:30] This is a space where we center building, relationship, nurturing life skills, and leaning into our own personal growth and man. The opportunities abound, right. My name is Casey Ody. I am a parent coach, positive discipline lead trainer, and captain of the adolescent ship over at Sprout Bowl. I'm also a speaker and a published author.
[00:00:53] I've been working with parents and families for over 20 years. And continue to navigate my own experience of being a mom with my two young adult kids. I'm so honored that you're here and listening. Please give back to the podcast by sharing it with friends or on social media rate and review us on Apple or Spotify.
[00:01:13] Word of mouth is how we grow. Thank you so, so much. Enjoy the show.
[00:01:23] All right, listeners. Welcome back to the Joyful Courage Podcast. I'm so glad that you're here today. I am welcoming Dr. Melissa Moore. She is the author of the Good Sleep Guide for Neurodivergent Kids, is a clinical psychologist board certified in behavioral sleep medicine and works at the Sleep Center at Randy Children's Health.
[00:01:48] San Diego. She also has a practice in Los Angeles area working with children, teens, and young adults across the country for a variety of sleep and mood issues specializing in neurodiversity. Melissa, I'm so glad that you're here because sleep is absolutely something that comes up with the clients that I work with mostly.
[00:02:07] How do we get them?
[00:02:08] Melissa Moore: Yes. Yeah.
[00:02:09] Casey O'Roarty: To sleep, right? So before we get into solutions. I wanna give parents a little moment of relief. What is actually happening in the adolescent brain and body that makes sleep such a battleground during the teen years, and why is it not just about teens being lazy or glued to their phones?
[00:02:30] We'll start there.
[00:02:31] Melissa Moore: That is a great opening question. There are multiple reasons that teens kind of have the deck stacked against them when it comes to sleep, but the main one is something that all teens everywhere experience, and that means this has been studied, Hong Kong, Australia, Europe, everywhere, United States, and that is.
[00:02:52] That we all have essentially a two hour shift in our circadian rhythm, and so it makes it harder to fall asleep at the time that you previously fell asleep, and it might make it hard to fall asleep at an ideal time. And so, you know. School start times don't necessarily change because of adolescence, and so we kind of just have to push back against that and get through it.
[00:03:21] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I know we live in a place, actually in a town where the community decided to honor that shift, and so our middle schoolers actually go to school. The latest. Um, but it's those elementary kids that are getting on the bus first. Yeah. So it seems like the community has appreciated and acknowledged that something different happens.
[00:03:44] So talk a little bit about that circadian rhythm. 'cause it kind of feels like, okay, well we know this happens, but too bad.
[00:03:51] Melissa Moore: Yeah.
[00:03:51] Casey O'Roarty: Right. How hard is it to work against that natural instinct of the body During adolescence?
[00:04:00] Melissa Moore: You can push against it, but you can't fully change it. You know, one aspect of things is that some people are born to be night owls.
[00:04:08] Mm-hmm. And other people are born to be early birds, and that is really genetic and biological. Okay. So, like I said, we can kind of push it, but we can't fully change it. The circadian rhythm. Is something that is influenced primarily by light. So morning sunlight is the biggest factor. So really your night of sleep starts as soon as you wake up in the morning.
[00:04:33] And I know it's hard to get morning sunshine in. Many places. So this doesn't mean that you have to go outside and take a walk before school 'cause zero teenagers are doing that. But if you could open the shades to your room, eat breakfast in a sunny place, those kinds of things will help the body's natural rhythm.
[00:04:55] Casey O'Roarty: Oh, that's good to know. And you specialize in neurodiversity?
[00:05:00] Melissa Moore: I specialize in sleep. Okay. So I see all kinds of kids. So I see kids as early as infants and as late as young adults. But I do also work with a lot of kids that are neurodiverse and I have neurodiversity in my own family.
[00:05:16] Casey O'Roarty: Right. Most of the people that I work with have some kind of neurodiversity in the family, whether it's.
[00:05:21] Some A DHD or right, anxiety, mental health stuff. Help us understand how does sleep hit differently for neurodivergent teens? What does that look like in real family life?
[00:05:35] Melissa Moore: So. In addition to that natural shift that we talked about, there are a few things about being neurodiverse that make sleep a little bit more difficult.
[00:05:46] The first thing is genetics, biology, whatever is causing that neurodiversity in the first place might actually also cause sleep problems. So that's one thing. And the second thing is differences in that circadian rhythm we were just talking about. So for example, we know that people with a DHD. Tend to have a later circadian rhythm.
[00:06:07] We know that
[00:06:08] Casey O'Roarty: people, so on top of the shift for adolescents, they're also experiencing this extra?
[00:06:13] Melissa Moore: Yes,
[00:06:14] Casey O'Roarty: yes. Interesting.
[00:06:15] Melissa Moore: Yeah. And for people with autism, that circadian rhythm is inconsistent. So one day your brain could be saying it's 2:00 AM you need to be asleep another day. Your brain could be telling you it's 2:00 AM and it's time to be wide awake.
[00:06:30] Mm-hmm. So the circadian rhythm is another factor. A third issue is sleep disorders. Certain sleep disorders themselves are more commonly associated with neurodiversity. So for example, people with A DHD have a higher likelihood of having one of the restless sleep disorders, which are things like restless leg syndrome and periodic limb movements.
[00:06:56] Those things happen. Side by side. And then the last one is a big, huge container of things that are not sleep disorders, but that cause sleep problems. And these are medical problems like eczema or reflux pain. Also more psychological things like anxiety and depression. So those things that are more common in neurodiverse, people also can impact sleep.
[00:07:25] So there, there are a lot of reasons and none of those reasons are a lack of willpower or bad parenting.
[00:07:32] Casey O'Roarty: Well, yeah, and that was my follow-up question, but you kind of touched on a few things like restlessness. How are sleep? Issues showing up in your practice, in the practice of the people that you kind of oversee, what is, what are you hearing from teens?
[00:07:49] What are you hearing from parents around sleep as far as how it's presenting as challenging?
[00:07:57] Melissa Moore: Well, I think that there are two big bumps in my practice. So two big ages where I see the most sleep problems. One is toddlerhood and the other is adolescence.
[00:08:07] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:08:08] Melissa Moore: And so what I see mostly in adolescents is difficulty falling asleep and then difficulty waking up for school.
[00:08:16] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:08:17] Melissa Moore: So being really sleepy during the day, and then that kind of ends up being like a vicious cycle. Yeah. And so when it comes to teens, that's primarily what I'm seeing, and I think some of the things that we do to try to compensate for a bad night's sleep actually perpetuate more bad nights of sleep.
[00:08:37] So a lot of kids will take a nap after school. And there are two things that cause us to fall asleep. One is the circadian rhythm that we talked about. You should be sleepy when it's dark. You should be awake when it's light. That's simple. The second is sleep pressure. And that's really exactly what it sounds like when you wake up in the morning.
[00:08:58] Theoretically, you shouldn't need. Your need for sleep then builds and builds and builds and builds throughout the day, and you reach a certain threshold and once you get there, it puts you over the edge into sleep. If you take a nap after school, if you sleep in really late on the weekends, that sleep pressure is taken away.
[00:09:18] And so I think we've all experienced this, that a 10 minute nap. Doesn't mean you fall asleep 10 minutes later. That 10 minute nap, that taking away that sleep pressure could lead to a lot of problems falling asleep. And so keeping things consistent from an ideal sleep perspective. Is really important.
[00:09:40] And research shows that two hours is kind of the cutoff. So if your child has to wake up at 7:00 AM for school, they really ideally shouldn't sleep past nine on the weekends. That's not always happening. We have to balance the ideal with reality, right? Yeah. And so I think compromising and negotiating there is.
[00:10:07] The best. Mm-hmm. And if you can't meet the ideal, that's okay. That doesn't mean that you should give up. Just try a little bit.
[00:10:15] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm. Point the compass in that direction
[00:10:18] Melissa Moore: point. The, I love that point, the compass in that direction.
[00:10:21] Casey O'Roarty: That kinda leads me into it's all well and good when the kids are like, yeah, I do need to get enough sleep.
[00:10:27] Right. And as all of the listeners, I'm sure there were plenty who. When you said 9:00 AM when, oh geez. We are way off of that. I know. You know, I know. I mean, my kids aren't in the house anymore, but, uh, when they are, I mean, no one's getting up at nine on the weekends. I know. Unless they've got somewhere to be.
[00:10:46] And you know, one of the things that we talk about, so I'd love your feedback on this, and positive discipline, which is the foundation of the work that I do. We talk about connecting before correcting, connecting before redirecting. I think a lot of parents. Really embrace that when the kids are young and then we kind of forget about it when they, yeah.
[00:11:03] Become teenagers. But it remains a really useful tool. It's about meeting kids where they're at before.
[00:11:12] Melissa Moore: Exactly.
[00:11:12] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. Trying to change behavior or patterns. So let's talk about how that applies to sleep and their sleep schedule and what it can look like for a parent. To get curious about their teen sleep.
[00:11:26] Mm-hmm. Rather than just, here's what, you know, the as if we can just say, well, from now on you've gotta go to bed at 10 period. Yeah. Because you can turn all the lights off and if they're laying there awake, we just, we just flew home from JFK, from New York City, my son and I. Right. He's 20. We had a very early flight and we went to bed probably 10 30, which was too late, but still.
[00:11:50] We had a 7:00 AM flight. I woke up at two 30, just kind of woke up and
[00:11:55] Melissa Moore: yeah,
[00:11:56] Casey O'Roarty: he could hear me wrestling and he goes, well, I haven't even fallen asleep yet. And I just was like, oh, bummer. And I went back to sleep and you know, and so kind of had to at some point it's like I have to, you know, there's nothing I'm gonna do about that.
[00:12:11] But how do we, you know, what are some of the ways that you encourage parents to get curious and kind of. Nurture the on-ramp to conversations around sleep. 'cause it feels like it can become quite the power struggle.
[00:12:23] Melissa Moore: It definitely can, and I really like to use a good, better, best approach because again, the id, we know what the ideals are in many aspects of life.
[00:12:35] We know we should floss our teeth every day. We know we should reapply sunscreen every two hours. That's not the issue. It's the doing it
[00:12:42] Casey O'Roarty: right.
[00:12:42] Melissa Moore: And so. If the ideal, for example, is, and we know this, getting 9.25 hours of sleep for teenagers, no, teenagers are getting that much sleep. How can we approximate that and how can the discussion around, okay, this would be best.
[00:13:01] This is still okay and this is still good. Mm-hmm. What are you willing to do? That's usually the first conversation I have. Love that. So I look at kind of the ideals, and we're not gonna change everything all at once. So maybe you're willing to shorten your afterschool nap from two hours to 30 minutes.
[00:13:20] Maybe you're willing to wake up at 10:00 AM on the weekends instead of 1:00 PM. So where are you willing to start? And I would say if you get the buy-in to start anywhere, take it.
[00:13:33] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:13:35] Melissa Moore: We can al, there are a lot of roads that lead to the same place.
[00:13:39] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:13:39] Melissa Moore: Just need to know where to start. And so getting curious, as you said about what in these recommendations feels okay to you, what is something you feel like you could change?
[00:13:52] And if someone says, I'm definitely not doing that, that's not where I start. It's an interesting balance because the research, the science tells us that having a parent set bedtime is one of the protective factors when it comes to sleep and the impact of sleep. Yet at the same time as parents, we're also balancing wanting to foster independence, you know?
[00:14:15] Yeah. I think our brains are. Always thinking, what's this gonna look like when they leave the nest?
[00:14:21] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah, absolutely.
[00:14:23] Melissa Moore: And so we're balancing that all the time. But just keeping that in mind, it's okay if I am influenced or it's okay if I am part of determining what my child's bedtime is.
[00:14:38] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:14:39] Melissa Moore: Within the framework of good, better, best.
[00:14:41] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. I love that. Good, better, best. I think that can be applied to so many habits. That is the approach that I take. I do think about the growing autonomy. I think about. You know, I want my kids to leave the house with a relationship with sleep. Yes. Where they are doing their own self-reflection, which is not the same as like you get to decide.
[00:15:03] Melissa Moore: Right?
[00:15:04] Casey O'Roarty: I mean, ultimately everyone, they do decide the spoiler alert. However, you know, the idea that, and I appreciate the experts and I appreciate the recommendations, but the idea that parents. Decide the bedtime and that that's actually what is happening doesn't feel real, you know? Right. And so, however, the good, better, best, the curiosity, what I lean on a lot in all the different areas of development is how can we, you know, we get to work together for a while.
[00:15:40] I am the external critical thinking as they develop mm-hmm. Their internal critical thinking, but. Everyone, you've heard me say this a million times. I am. If I'm lecturing, I am not developing. I am not supporting their development of critical thinking It is, right. Curiosity and what and how. Questions and.
[00:16:01] You know, noticing and encouragement. That is the nurturing of that critical thinking. Even though we all have wisdom, like you said, there's research, there's, you know, PowerPoint presentations, there's Ted Talks, there's books, there's so much information
[00:16:19] Melissa Moore: and there's fitting it into reality and they're trying to do that too.
[00:16:23] So I think respecting what their priorities are, you know. Studying for that test might be their priority. Going to that 5:00 AM hockey practice might be their priority and we have to kind of help them integrate that into all the other things they're supposed to be doing. Yeah. 'cause sleep is one thing out of a million things that we are trying to balance.
[00:16:56] Casey O'Roarty: And it kind of feels like we have to work backwards. Right. Like, okay, if this is the ideal, you know, the good amount of time, the better amount of time, the best amount of time to be asleep in your bed. Yeah. Okay. So what does that look like? When does that start? So what does the two hours before that look like?
[00:17:12] What is the two hours before the two hours before that look like? It seems, you know, to create the scaffolding in supporting them and getting that good sleep. You know, it, it can feel like I. You know, it's tough to keep them engaged in that whole process.
[00:17:31] Melissa Moore: Yeah.
[00:17:31] Casey O'Roarty: What are some of the ways, 'cause you're working directly with teens, right?
[00:17:35] Melissa Moore: Right, right.
[00:17:36] Casey O'Roarty: So how, what are some of the ways that you present to. Help encourage that buy-in, you know? 'cause I think a lot of teenagers are just like, it's not that deep mom.
[00:17:47] Melissa Moore: Yeah.
[00:17:48] Casey O'Roarty: You know?
[00:17:48] Melissa Moore: Yeah. Well, I start by finding out what's important to them, getting to know them and, and respecting what they're telling me.
[00:17:56] So one personnel example, I have a son who is a tween, not yet a teen, and he is neurodiverse and he does have sleep problems. But over the years, I've really learned to listen. When he says, I'm not tired and I'm not gonna be able to fall asleep right now. Mm-hmm. And so just telling him, get into bed, it, it's not gonna help.
[00:18:20] He also is very good at saying, now I'm tired and getting into bed.
[00:18:25] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:18:26] Melissa Moore: But I let him do Legos or draw or do something when he tells me he's not tired right now. Mm-hmm. And I
[00:18:33] Casey O'Roarty: noticed you didn't mention any screens when you said the things that.
[00:18:37] Melissa Moore: That is true. But I will tell you this, I've been talking about this a lot and I always say I feel like I'm gonna get struck by lightning when I talk about this.
[00:18:45] I'm probably a little bit more flexible
[00:18:49] Casey O'Roarty: mm-hmm.
[00:18:50] Melissa Moore: Than other people when it comes to screens and sleep. Not overall. Okay. And I don't recommend screens, but there is, there are nuances to the research. We've been finding out that, for example, in kids who are, you know, have a lot of distressing thoughts at bedtime, who are worried a lot, who have trouble shutting their minds off, who might be going through a period of having some dark thoughts.
[00:19:18] Mm-hmm. That electronics are a way to distract themselves from those really difficult thoughts. And in some cases those people actually fall asleep faster. If they are using electronics during that time,
[00:19:35] Casey O'Roarty: does it matter how they're using electronics?
[00:19:38] Melissa Moore: That's a good question.
[00:19:39] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:19:39] Melissa Moore: The nuances also suggest to us that kids with a certain amount of willpower are a little bit.
[00:19:50] More able to shut down the electronics when they need to. So the problem with electronics, I know there's a lot of research on blue light, and we can talk about that, but the real key is when the electronics push the bedtime later and later. Mm-hmm. That. Is the problem. And you know, interestingly, I've learned this myself recently.
[00:20:12] I have not been a big social media person, and as you mentioned, I wrote this book and so I've had to be on social media and. You know, Instagram learned instantly that I watch videos of little kids dancing a lot.
[00:20:28] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:20:28] Melissa Moore: It knows. And then all of a sudden I'm looking up and it's been a half an hour. If you still maintain your same bedtime, it's, it has less of an impact.
[00:20:41] Casey O'Roarty: Hmm.
[00:20:41] Melissa Moore: And so there are a lot of nuances there. Like I said, I am not recommending electronics. Mm-hmm. But again, when we're thinking about that good, better, best situation, the best would be no electronics at all.
[00:20:54] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:20:55] Melissa Moore: The better would be, okay. You're telling me you're just listening to tv, you're not watching it, so let's put a pillowcase or a towel over it.
[00:21:03] You know, the good would be okay, you can watch your show, but it needs to be finished and you need to be out of your bed before you actually close your eyes and fall asleep. So there's a little bit of wiggle room there.
[00:21:16] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah,
[00:21:17] Melissa Moore: and I don't think we've thought about it in that way. Again, I'm not saying that social media and electronics are healthy or good in other ways, but in the specific way that it applies to sleep, the answer really is, it depends.
[00:21:32] Casey O'Roarty: Well, I'm not hearing you say like, yeah, don't worry about it. Yeah. I'm hearing you invite parents to be intentional Yes. About the conversations they're having with their teens. I feel like what I see is conver, like specifically Snapchat. And the conversations that are constantly happening and kids being able to put that away.
[00:21:58] Right. And I see that in my own son as well, if there's something going on and even just the notifications, it's so distracting and he says, oh no, I don't even notice it. And I'm like, no, that's bullshit.
[00:22:14] Melissa Moore: Yeah, I mean, I think in that area. Notifications need to be turned off.
[00:22:19] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:22:20] Melissa Moore: But similarly, let's not say that blue blocking sunglasses and night mode on your phone are gonna fix everything.
[00:22:28] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:22:29] Melissa Moore: Because they're not, yeah. That's not a good solution, and that hasn't really been shown to help that much.
[00:22:35] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. I mean, I think it's a great opportunity, like what I was talking about, to talk to our teens about how it feels knowing Yes. Like wow. Yeah. It is hard. To step away when you know the action is continuing or you know, that makes sense, that it feels like that.
[00:22:51] And how can you be with that feeling and still, you know, being in that, what do I want now versus what I want most? Yes. Tension. I think naming that as soon as possible and bringing it into the conversation as soon as possible is so. Supportive for their ongoing development is humans definitely. Because we're still like, that ice cream looks great.
[00:23:14] Definitely what, what I want now versus what I want most or you know, whatever.
[00:23:19] Melissa Moore: Exactly. And you know, in the teenagers I see there are kind of two groups. So there's one group that are really worried about their sleep and very, very focused on their sleep and how it's gonna impact. Going to college and getting a job, and all of those kinds of things.
[00:23:36] Oh, there
[00:23:36] Casey O'Roarty: are teenagers who think about that.
[00:23:39] Melissa Moore: There are. Mm-hmm. And they're often quite anxious.
[00:23:42] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. Okay.
[00:23:43] Melissa Moore: Other, and then there's the other, which
[00:23:43] Casey O'Roarty: probably gets in their way of sleep.
[00:23:45] Melissa Moore: Right, right. Yeah. And so for that group of teens. This might sound counterintuitive, but we kind of de-emphasize sleep.
[00:23:55] Mm-hmm. We talk about how, first of all, no monitoring, no bracelet, no ring, no phone besides your bed tracking your sleep. Don't keep track of it if your teen is very anxious about their sleep. So that's the first thing. Stop tracking it. Don't talk about it too much very, you know, give them almost like a mantra.
[00:24:19] Talk about a mantra as you're falling asleep. Something that's positive, but also true as you said, not just total bullshit. So you don't want their mantra to be like, tonight I'm gonna fall asleep in 10 minutes or tomorrow I'm gonna feel great no matter how much sleep I get. Because those are not things that are true.
[00:24:38] Right. A better way to say it is something like, I always fall asleep even if it takes a long time, or I've been having crappy sleep for the last month and I've still made. Two goals at soccer practice yesterday or whatever. But positive and true is really where you wanna go with that self-talk.
[00:25:00] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:25:01] Melissa Moore: The other group of kids are the kids who need to emphasize sleep with more.
[00:25:06] And I think these, when we think about teens and sleep, these are the teens that come to mind are the ones that you're trying to, you know, drive home why sleep is important. And again, I really. Try to take the time to find out what's important to them. Mm-hmm. And link sleep to it. Because sleep is so important in all aspects of our lives that I feel like most teens can tell me whatever it is that's important to them.
[00:25:38] And I can tell them a way that sleep relates to it.
[00:25:41] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:25:42] Melissa Moore: So that's really it, where I go with that group.
[00:25:44] Casey O'Roarty: I love that. And you mentioned bedtime. We've talked about bedtime, so. You know, a lot of my listeners may be in that place where you're entering into, which is moving from the middle school.
[00:25:58] Melissa Moore: Yeah.
[00:25:59] Casey O'Roarty: Into the high school realm. And it's funny, even in middle school, my parents, I love it. Parents are like, they used to be such a good student. Like, oh, in elementary school they got all fours. You know, like, it's so funny how we hold on to this, you know? I know how they showed up as little kids or even middle to high school.
[00:26:17] There's so much development and pruning and shifts in the emotional experience and the hormonal experience. There's so much happening between middle and high school. I feel like, well, you're a doctor, so you tell me. I feel like adolescents, like the whole brain development piece of adolescence seems to hit hardest in those first, like 12, 13, 14, 15 minute.
[00:26:45] Oh,
[00:26:45] Melissa Moore: definitely.
[00:26:46] Casey O'Roarty: Okay, good.
[00:26:47] Melissa Moore: And I'm a psychologist. Okay. So I'm not a physician. I just wanna say that. You're exactly right. And parents come to me. I think it's funniest when they're infants and parents will say like, she used to be a good sleeper when she was three months old and now she's six months old and she's a terrible sleeper.
[00:27:05] And once you have the hindsight of having an older child and realizing how much they change day by day. Yeah. Week by week. And that, that's just a normal part of development that is, is similar. In those early teen years, but I think we see the most struggle and change in those early tween years.
[00:27:29] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:27:29] Melissa Moore: I also think though, and this is why I love adolescent so much, working with adolescents is what brought me to the sleep field in the first place.
[00:27:38] But there's so much hope for change still. There's still, you have such a big impact, even though it might not feel like it. And as a parent it might feel terrible. There's still so much hope for change.
[00:27:53] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. Well let's talk about that because you know, parents get really wrapped up in bedtime and we've already, you've already shared the good, better, best kind of scenario and I can see how that could.
[00:28:07] Be placed over the top of a conversation about mm-hmm. Bedtime. What would you want parents to understand about, I mean, I talk about this all the time in other contexts that, you know, control is an illusion. Mm-hmm.
[00:28:22] Melissa Moore: Yep.
[00:28:23] Casey O'Roarty: You know, really what we wanna strive for is collaboration. Um, you already mentioned, I think, negotiation.
[00:28:32] Right. So, so what can that look like in a conversation? You know, maybe, and honestly everyone we know, it's not one conversation that's gonna make an impact, right. But, you know, multiple, especially as we kind of peel back layers and also work hard to create a space that doesn't feel like a trap to the teenagers.
[00:28:53] 'cause I feel like that's when they're like, I'm not gonna engage with you because I know what you want here. I know you have an agenda. And this is a trap, so why would I tell you about how I feel? You're just gonna turn it into why I need to be going to bed at 9:00 PM
[00:29:07] Melissa Moore: mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
[00:29:08] Casey O'Roarty: Right. So what else can you share with parents just about that's gonna help them?
[00:29:13] One, in their understanding and in loosening that idea that it's their declaration of bedtime. That's really the most important thing.
[00:29:22] Melissa Moore: I think focusing on the fundamental things that are gonna bring about change and making sure that your teen has that information, that you have that information. And I'm gonna tell you a little bit more about what I mean when you are, say you really wish your teen had an earlier bedtime.
[00:29:42] They're telling you they can't fall asleep. It's a vicious cycle. They wake up late on the weekends, they nap after school. The first place to start with that is not with bedtime. Okay? The first place to start with that is reducing daytime sleep reducing. Oversleep on the weekends. So getting that under control first from a biological perspective is what's gonna help the most.
[00:30:11] So even though your goal might be an earlier bedtime saying, you know, how long of an after you think you really need after school, or you know, could this be the time that you're on Snapchat? Or whatever you're doing electronically, what are some other things that you could do that would give you that recharge?
[00:30:32] That aren't sleep at that time. So I think figuring out what are the fundamentals where you're gonna see the most change.
[00:30:40] Casey O'Roarty: Okay.
[00:30:41] Melissa Moore: Is a big one. Other areas, again, it really depends on is your teen the one that's really anxious about sleep or is your teen the one that really is nonchalant about sleep, where, you know?
[00:30:55] Yeah. Figuring that out is also really important in this whole adolescent situation. Giving information. The other thing is that. And again, this is for the teens that are more focused on sleep. There are a lot of things that impact how awake we feel during the day, and sleep is one of them. There's also light exposure.
[00:31:20] Morning light. Actually, you're nighttime sleep starts the minute you wake up. Nice. So again, if you can get some. Sunlight in the morning, that is really going to help interacting with friends, doing things you like. What are some things that can make you feel more awake? And that's true during the day for the teens that wanna nap after school.
[00:31:45] You know, figuring out what's a way that you could feel refreshed, but you know, not be sleeping. So focusing again on those areas that you're really gonna be able to see a difference.
[00:31:59] Casey O'Roarty: And I'm guessing a can of Celsius or Red Bull after school is not the solution that you're talking about.
[00:32:05] Melissa Moore: It's definitely not the solution, but getting back to the good, better, best.
[00:32:10] Yeah. Maybe you could have that Red Bull at lunch if you must do it.
[00:32:16] Casey O'Roarty: Right.
[00:32:16] Melissa Moore: You know, instead of an app instead of, you know, we know. People ask me all the time about food.
[00:32:23] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:32:24] Melissa Moore: And sleep. And the research generally doesn't show that spicy foods or sugar or those things really impact sleep. It's primarily caffeine.
[00:32:34] And that doesn't mean that for any one person, sugar doesn't. Impact their sleep, but for everybody it's caffeine. And so figuring out when that happens. And the other thing is that caffeine is hidden in so many places that we don't know. And I have people all the time who will be like, well, they get, you know, Starbucks Dragon fruit refresher or whatever after school, but it's just a lemonade.
[00:33:02] It has a lot of caffeine in it actually. So. You know, helping them understand what is in, you know, the caffeinated drinks that they are consuming when they should have it. Yeah.
[00:33:25] Casey O'Roarty: So I love focusing on the awakeness, the daylight, the day sleep, and I'm thinking about a couple of clients that I've worked with mm-hmm. Who have kids who once they are asleep, they're asleep. And the idea that they'll wake up earlier just can feel really stretchy. I'm thinking back to being a teenager and remembering Saturday mornings the sound of the vacuum.
[00:33:50] Melissa Moore: Oh my gosh. Like
[00:33:52] Casey O'Roarty: I know what you're
[00:33:52] Melissa Moore: talking about.
[00:33:53] Casey O'Roarty: My mom. Yes. She was a maniac with how early she would start house cleaning and I wonder, it'd be interesting to go back. I don't think I've ever asked her if that was like, I'm guessing intentional. She's pretty ooc d about cleaning the house, so it probably didn't have to do with me, but it would, yeah.
[00:34:10] I wonder how intentional like she was in starting her chores. Nice and early. Right. And then, you know, at my dad's house it was the like, there was just I, I was so jealous of kids that just got to sleep forever. 'cause that never seemed like it was allowed in my Yeah. Experience. What kind of advice do you have for parents who do feel like, I mean, it's like waking the dead, trying to get them up in the morning.
[00:34:38] What are the conversations you're having with kids or with their parents about what might be useful?
[00:34:44] Melissa Moore: I have heard. Some of the craziest ways that parents wake up their kids, they will try anything. Right? Yeah. And it's also knowing your kid. So for some kids, they're, if a natural consequence happens, they won't never do it again.
[00:35:02] So for example, if you're like, I'm gonna come in two times. If you don't wake up, I'm not gonna come back in.
[00:35:10] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:35:10] Melissa Moore: For some kids that will be. You know, devastating to miss school, to be late for school for many other kids.
[00:35:19] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:35:19] Melissa Moore: They really don't mind. And so for those kids, I think there has to be a little bit of a tighter guardrail.
[00:35:26] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:35:26] Melissa Moore: You're not gonna just let it, let it go to natural consequences. Right. Food, light sounds, all those things are going to wake kids up. But the thing that you have to think about is if your child is falling asleep really late and you're trying to wake them up at seven or whatever for school, imagine how it would feel if someone came and woke you up.
[00:35:55] At 3:00 AM and said, huh, time to be wide awake, gotta go to work.
[00:36:00] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:36:00] Melissa Moore: You know, it can be really, really hard. How can we work together to get you a little bit more sleep so you don't feel terrible? And what is something that you could look forward to mm-hmm. That might be kind of motivating for you to get out of bed?
[00:36:15] So maybe the Dragon fruit refresher is a reward for getting up in the morning.
[00:36:20] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:36:21] Melissa Moore: I don't know many. Teenagers who want to get out of bed early, if they have no motivation, and honestly, would we be getting up really early or earlier than we want to if we didn't have work or didn't have responsibilities or activities?
[00:36:43] I don't know.
[00:36:44] Casey O'Roarty: Well, and just going back to the natural consequences piece, because that's something that does come up. A lot in my work and I just wanna, you know, remind everybody that when, 'cause that has been, you know, I have worked with clients who are at that place of just. You know, here's what I'm willing to do and then I've gotta go to work.
[00:37:05] Yeah. So you'll need to figure out how to get to school and what that looks like. And I remind, you know, I would remind listeners, that doesn't mean that we then, you know, piece out good luck with that. But like, no, how, what could it look like? Where are you gonna get a ride if it's not from me? Where, you know, what time is the bus picking you up?
[00:37:25] And I think there's also. You know, a conversation around because yeah, some kids are like, oh, free day off of school. Right. You know, systemic problems. Right. School is not that exciting. That's a whole nother conversation. Yeah. But a conversation around is it important to you to be at class? Is it important to you to, you know, to have a certain GPA and show up to that?
[00:37:48] Is it important, you know, do you wanna graduate with your class and walk through graduation with your class? But kind of. Helping, and I think you've kind of alluded to something similar, but kind of bringing it back to what's important to you. Yes. And how does sleep fit inside of this and good, better, best again.
[00:38:06] Right. Like what can this look like to shift it just enough so that the mornings don't feel like battleground where I'm resentful and you're irritated and everybody's. Pissed at each other, right?
[00:38:20] Melissa Moore: Yeah. Yeah. That is so hard. And the thing is, when we're sleep deprived, we have way less ability to regulate our emotions.
[00:38:29] We're much more irritable. Yeah. And you know, in Neurodiverse kids in particular, irritability is very common and common on waking, believe it or not. You know, in addition to. Other teenagers who might not be neurodiverse, they're still pretty irritable when you try to wake them up. But opening that up, I think you've brought up so many times connecting, and I always say connection over perfection.
[00:38:59] Mm-hmm. Really finding that common ground, whatever it is. So for example, if I have someone who, a teenager who's not sleeping that well, who's really really into sports. I talk about how sleep is the time that actually your muscles recover, your body recovers. And when you look at pro athletes, look at LeBron James, look at Serena Williams, look at other people who talk about the importance of sleep in their lives, and just kind of putting that information out there.
[00:39:37] Not in a way that you're lecturing them, but just not just
[00:39:40] Casey O'Roarty: casually.
[00:39:41] Melissa Moore: Yeah. Yeah. Or like here, look at what LeBron James said. He says a lot about sleep. That's why I'm bringing it up. He's a great sleep advocate.
[00:39:49] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. Good. So how do you support, so I'm thinking about the people that are listening, right? Yeah.
[00:39:56] And what are the signs that a parent might be on the lookout for that? What is happening in their home is, you know, kind of this normal teen sleep chaos. Versus we might need to get some support and some assessments around this. What should they be looking for, and then what are steps that they can be taking towards finding support for their kiddo?
[00:40:26] Melissa Moore: First of all, the relationship between sleep and mental health, so anxiety, depression, those kind of things is generally bidirectional. It goes both ways. So if you're anxious, you're asleep. It's probably worse. If you're not sleeping well, your anxiety is worse.
[00:40:40] Casey O'Roarty: Okay.
[00:40:41] Melissa Moore: And so sometimes we might not know exactly what is what, but we gotta start somewhere.
[00:40:48] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:40:49] Melissa Moore: And that's when, again, getting into the negotiation with your teen and where are you willing to go? I, nighttime is a time for a lot of teens that are struggling with mental health that those thoughts come up. It's the time of day where. You're finally stopping
[00:41:08] Casey O'Roarty: or it's amplified 'cause
[00:41:09] Melissa Moore: it's, that's what I mean.
[00:41:10] Casey O'Roarty: Oh yeah.
[00:41:11] Melissa Moore: Stopping your activity and amplifying the thoughts. So there's space for those thoughts and. It is wonderful to be able to talk to your team whenever they're willing to talk to you, but if there's any way, especially with conversations that involve conflict, if those could happen earlier rather than right at bedtime, when you start having those anxious.
[00:41:35] Or darker thoughts. It's just like a big bile drawer opens and all of those thoughts come out together. In terms of sleep, what should we be looking for from a medical perspective? If your child snores. If they wake up with a headache, if they are waking up, gasping, coughing, that kind of thing, they need a sleep study and you definitely need to find a sleep center.
[00:42:03] If they report that they're having trouble falling asleep because they're feeling really restless. They have weird feelings in their body, something's going on. That's another reason.
[00:42:13] Casey O'Roarty: Okay.
[00:42:15] Melissa Moore: If. You believe that they're getting enough sleep. So if they're getting eight hours of sleep still falling asleep all day during school, that's not that, I don't wanna say normal, because maybe they're actually staying up till four and waking up at seven.
[00:42:31] Mm-hmm. But if you're pretty sure that they're getting enough sleep and still falling asleep during the day, that's a red flag.
[00:42:37] Casey O'Roarty: Okay.
[00:42:38] Melissa Moore: And then really, if you've been trying to change things and it's just not happening. I think that's enough of a reason. I really do.
[00:42:46] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. Like this is no longer something that we can navigate together.
[00:42:50] Let's get some extra support. You know, one of the things that we talk about are beliefs behind behavior. And I think if you're home environment is set up over time as us versus them, and it's just
[00:43:06] Melissa Moore: mm-hmm.
[00:43:07] Casey O'Roarty: Like what the parents want versus what the kids want. And that's been the dynamic. Then it's time to first to dismantle that.
[00:43:15] Melissa Moore: Right,
[00:43:16] Casey O'Roarty: right, right, right. Or if there's this feeling of overly controlling and which can happen, and then our kids, you know, I think about my own experience of nicotine and starting to smoke Totally. As a big old middle finger to my parents.
[00:43:34] Melissa Moore: Yeah, yeah, yeah,
[00:43:35] Casey O'Roarty: yeah. Jokes on me, right? Yeah. Because you know, lifelong addiction.
[00:43:41] To nicotine, you know, is not my parents. You know, I'm not hurting my parents. I'm
[00:43:47] Melissa Moore: right, right,
[00:43:48] Casey O'Roarty: right. So it's the same kind of thing with sleep. You know, like, screw you, I can do what I want. You don't even care about me. I'll show you kind of mindset needs to be dismantled. So that instead of I'm doing this despite you, it becomes actually, I'm choosing for me.
[00:44:06] Right? Right. So there's also those dynamics that are coming up for me as I listen to you and I'm thinking about the listeners like, yeah. It could also be that there's a dynamic, a relational piece that can be addressed or even just highlighted, Hey, I notice. That it's really hard for us to talk about sleep.
[00:44:26] You know? You get defensive. Love that. I get defensive. Yeah. So how can we talk about it in a way?
[00:44:32] Melissa Moore: Mm-hmm.
[00:44:32] Casey O'Roarty: That is useful.
[00:44:34] Melissa Moore: This sounds so simple, but I think first our language around it. So instead of saying like your bad sleep, your insomnia, your anxiety, your depression to call to say the. So, you know, how can we then you're joining together against this is the thing.
[00:44:53] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:44:54] Melissa Moore: It's not me against you and you know, conveying that we are together trying to solve the same problem, which is not a problem of who you are.
[00:45:08] Casey O'Roarty: Yes. Yeah,
[00:45:10] Melissa Moore: that's not the problem. And also kind of respecting just where they are developmentally. It doesn't feel good to us when our children wanna separate necessarily.
[00:45:20] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:45:20] Melissa Moore: And they wanna be alone all the time. There's a part of that that's really normal. And so how can we respect that and at the same time, support good sleep habits. So for example. Our brains all make associations. They make shortcuts. That's how we operate. And one of those is between sleep and whatever it is you do.
[00:45:44] So when you look at your bed, you should think your brain should think sleep. Sleep bed, sleep bed. But. Sometimes when we're in our beds for long periods of time doing other things, our brains make different associations, sleep, worry, sleep, tv, sleep, social, sleep. Mm-hmm. Whatever. And so we wanna make sure that even in respecting that need for autonomy and separation that we don.
[00:46:10] Add a bad sleep habit. And so if we can say, maybe I can get a different chair for your room. Let's pick out a beanbag. Let's make a comfy little spot in the corner that's still respecting their need for autonomy, but at the same time, sneaking in there a better sleep habit.
[00:46:29] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. I like creating a cozy.
[00:46:31] Melissa Moore: Yeah,
[00:46:32] Casey O'Roarty: because that's what they want. They just wanna be cozy while they scroll.
[00:46:35] Melissa Moore: And alone.
[00:46:36] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:46:36] Melissa Moore: And
[00:46:37] Casey O'Roarty: alone. And alone. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I really like that. Okay, so if we've got somebody, I'm sure that there are people out there who are listening and appreciating this and feeling. A little bit overwhelmed because they probably haven't slept.
[00:46:51] I mean, we don't sleep well as parents of teenagers, right, either. So what's one thing that you would want listeners to walk away with and do today? They could only do one thing. What if they
[00:47:05] Melissa Moore: could only do one thing?
[00:47:06] Casey O'Roarty: What might shift
[00:47:08] Melissa Moore: things? The most impact, impactful thing is going to be keeping that sleep pressure up.
[00:47:14] By having a little bit of an earlier wake time only on the weekends and not having daytime sleep, that's the most bang for your buck.
[00:47:23] Casey O'Roarty: Okay. Get your vacuum out, everyone.
[00:47:26] Melissa Moore: I would have people just remember that. Good, better, best.
[00:47:29] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. I think that's definitely gonna be a big takeaway for people.
[00:47:32] Melissa Moore: Yeah.
[00:47:32] Casey O'Roarty: Lovely.
[00:47:33] Melissa Moore: Yeah.
[00:47:33] Casey O'Roarty: Well, Melissa, I always end my interviews with the same question and I love what my guests respond with. What does joyful courage mean to you in the context of teens and sleep?
[00:47:45] Melissa Moore: To me it means maintaining hope. Hmm. So as a parent, staying hopeful that there's always something else to try, there's always somewhere else to go and some way to connect.
[00:47:59] I've been doing this for a long time and like I said, what drew me to sleep in the first place was teenagers. 'cause I loved working with teenagers so much.
[00:48:07] Casey O'Roarty: Thank you. Thank you for your service.
[00:48:12] Melissa Moore: But I have never to this day reached a point where I'm like, there's nothing else to do. Mm-hmm. There's nothing else we can try. Their sleep is what it is. Good luck. And there's, so I just want people to have hope. There's always something else to try. And there is a reason that your teenager is not sleeping the way that you wish they would, and it's probably not.
[00:48:38] That they're lazy or that you're a bad parent.
[00:48:41] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah,
[00:48:41] Melissa Moore: so those are the things to me that mean joyful courage.
[00:48:45] Casey O'Roarty: Yay. Thank you. Where can people find you and follow your work and find your book?
[00:48:51] Melissa Moore: My website is dr melissa moore.com. My name Melissa, only has one s, so it's D-R-M-E-L-I-S-A-M-O-O-R-E also. And there are links to everything there.
[00:49:03] My book is at. All the places where you usually buy books, so your local bookstore, Amazon, Barnes and Noble. Yeah.
[00:49:14] Casey O'Roarty: Love it. Well, I'll make sure that all the links are in the show notes. Great. Thank you so much for spending time with me. This was a really useful conversation.
[00:49:22] Melissa Moore: Thanks so much.
[00:49:28] Casey O'Roarty: Thank you so much for listening. Thank you to my Sprout partners, Julietta and Alana. Thank you, Danielle, for supporting with the show notes as well as Chris Mann and the team at Pod Shaper for all the support with getting the show out there and making it sound good. As I mentioned, sharing is caring. If you're willing to pass on this episode to others or take a few minutes to rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, it helps other parents find this useful content.
[00:49:56] Be sure to check out what we have going on for parents of kids of all ages and sign up for our newsletter to stay [email protected]. I see you doing all the things. I believe in you. See you next time.