Eps 662: PART TWO of Teen Cannabin Use with Susan Notis

Resources Mentioned

• Cannabis Conversation Circle — Susan’s online support community for parents concerned about their teen’s cannabis use
• Raising by Example — Susan’s coaching program
• “Look for the Good, Find Connection” — free workbook on Susan’s site (three exercises: journaling for the good, love languages, temperament)
• In Balance Life and Parent Coaching — Susan’s business and website: InBalanceLifeAndParentCoaching.com
• The Perfectly Imperfect Family — book Susan co-authored
• Raising Teens Who Talk to You — book featuring Susan’s chapter “The Silent Epidemic: Teen Marijuana Dependency” (Casey is also a contributing author)
• Invitation to Change (ITC) — source of “behavior makes sense” and the information sandwich tool
• SAMHSA (Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration) — 1-800-662-HELP, offers peer support and program referrals
• Victor Frankl — “Between stimulus and response there is a space…”
• HALT — hungry, angry, lonely, tired, a check-in before approaching a hard conversation
• The Mistaken Goal Chart — Positive Discipline tool Casey references on the belief behind behavior
• Part one with Susan on teen cannabis use (worth linking in the show notes for anyone who missed it)

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Transcription

Casey O'Roarty
Welcome, welcome, welcome to the Joyful Courage podcast. This is a place where parents of tweens and teens come to find inspiration, information, and encouragement in the messy terrain of adolescence. This season of parenting is no joke. And while the details of what we're all moving through might be slightly different, we are indeed having a very collective experience. This is a space where we center building relationship, nurturing life skills, and leaning into our own personal growth. And man, the opportunity's abound, right? My name is Kasey O'Rourdy. I am a parent coach, positive discipline lead trainer, and captain of the adolescent ship over at Sproutable. I'm also a speaker and a published author. I've been working with parents and families for over 20 years and continue to navigate my own experience of being a mom with my two young adult kids. I'm so honored that you're here and listening. Please give back to the podcast by sharing it with friends or on social media, rate and review us on Apple or Spotify. Word of mouth is how we grow. Thank you so, so much. Enjoy the show.

[00:01:23:12 - 00:03:20:06]
Casey O'Roarty
Hey, everybody, welcome back to the pod. So not too long ago, I sat down with Susan Notis for a conversation about teen cannabis use that I've heard about from so many of you. So many of you found it useful. You shared in my DMs and emails. It clearly hit something for the audience. And one of the kind of consistent pieces of feedback and something that Susan and I actually talked about after the show was, OK, thanks for the information. What do I do? So Susan, I'm so grateful that you said yes to coming back. This is exactly where we're going to spend our time today. So quick recap. If you missed part one, we talked about how today's cannabis is not the cannabis that we grew up with. THC potency has jumped from 2% to 4% in the 90s to 15%, 25% or higher today. And that's what's being sold in dispensaries. We talked about how the teenage brain is wired to operate from the amygdala, that feeling part of the brain before the prefrontal cortex comes online, which means what feels good gets repeated and pathways to dependency get carved fast. We talked about something that I think really landed for many people, which was lasting change has to come from within our teen. We can't lecture them into it. We can't research them into it. We can't even love them into it. Our job is to nurture the conditions that make change possible, which brings us to today. If our job is to nurture those conditions, what does that actually look like when our kid walks in clearly having used? This is what Susan and I are unpacking in this episode. So before we dive in, let me reintroduce my guest because she is so worth getting to know. Susan Notis is a certified parent coach and bestselling co-author

[00:03:21:19 - 00:04:14:20]
Casey O'Roarty
of The Perfectly Imperfect Family. Susan also wrote the chapter, The Silent Epidemic, Teen Marijuana Dependency, for the book we were both co-authors of, Raising Teens That Talk To You. She has over two decades of experience supporting children and families, and she brings an integrative whole family lens to helping parents stay grounded and connected through high stakes challenges like teen cannabis dependency. Susan runs an online community for parents that are concerned about their teens' pot use called Cannabis Conversation Circle, and her coaching program, Raising by Example, guides parents through the inner work that transforms the entire family. Because when the parent grows, the whole family has the opportunity to transform. So Susan, welcome back to the podcast.

[00:04:14:20 - 00:04:18:23]
Susan Notis
Thank you so much for having me, Casey. I'm so glad we could do this part too.

[00:04:18:23 - 00:04:38:03]
Casey O'Roarty
Yeah, me too. In part one, like I said, we landed on that really important truth that lasting change has to come from within our teen. So for parents who heard that and thought, All right, so how can I facilitate that? Where does this work really start?

[00:04:38:03 - 00:06:29:01]
Susan Notis
When we look at the whole picture, the very first place we can start is having an understanding that using substances make sense for our children. OK, so the pull to use substances is similar to any kind of behavioral choice we make if something works, we keep doing it. I wanted to use an example of I recently got diagnosed with ADHD like two years ago, and I started taking a stimulant. And boy, oh boy, that made such a difference in my life. I could suddenly start multitasking better. I could manage my time better. But I'm an adult and I have the part of my brain that helps me understand, OK, that's great for the days I need it. But it also causes these other side effects like it's hard to fall asleep at night or I don't drink enough fluids during the day and then I don't like the feeling in my mouth. Like we are able as adults to understand our behavior. And something feels good, but yet, OK, let's limit it. So our children don't have those breaks yet formed in their brain. So when we are understanding this, this really helps us have more empathy towards our children. And it invites us to create safety and connection and collaboration. And it also helps us unload that heavy backpack that we're wearing of shame and guilt.

[00:06:30:03 - 00:07:10:05]
Susan Notis
It's just one of those steps of like our kids are in this land where cannabis is kind of celebrated now. And we are carrying around so much like, oh, you know, confusion. Just it's so hard to parent during this time and it can lead you to feeling really like guilty about, wow, maybe I've made some missteps. Maybe I thought it was OK and I allowed it to go too far. So this first step of understanding that the substance makes sense for our children. And it's like boiling it back all the way to there.

[00:07:10:05 - 00:10:59:06]
Casey O'Roarty
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I love that. And, you know, listeners, you'll hear some things woven in that I've taken away from the Invitation to Change program. So I just want to speak into that because one of their kind of pillar mantras is behavior makes sense. And what I love about that reminder is also how it can overlap into a metaphor that I use a lot here on the podcast, which is the iceberg metaphor. Right. There's the behavior we see at the surface, which is oftentimes a solution to a problem we don't know about, to something we don't know about that's going on under the surface. So when we come at any behavior, including cannabis use and misuse from that lens of, OK, if this makes sense, then what is it making sense of? Like, what is it supporting, you know, I'm air quoting, supporting our kiddos with. And I also, as I listen to you, I've started to really explore and talk about like the entire ecosystem of the household and what, you know, you're speaking into culturally this normalization of cannabis and using cannabis in this celebration. And I mean, I live in a very liberal pocket of the world and a very liberal, at least half the state. You know, weed has been legal for feels like a long time, even though it still feels really weird. And so, you know, you can barely go two blocks without seeing a dispensary, which also includes a big billboard, which also includes messaging. And so there's the ecosystem outside of our home. But then there's also this ecosystem internally in the household. And I loved what you said about your own experience with medication that was supporting you with something. But also having the wherewithal to recognize, you know, what is my developing relationship with this substance? And I think that is such a useful, you know, thing to model, whether it's like right now I'm in this place of I've had ice cream every night for the last four nights. And I can feel that, like, how easy it is for it to start to become what I do in the evenings and I don't want it to. You know, I'll speak out loud. Oh, I'm really noticing how my real and this is benign, I realize. But like my relationship with ice cream and am I making a choice or am I sliding into a pattern? And I think there's so many little places where we can live out loud in a way that does nurture that space of reflection, right? And values. So, yeah. So there's that piece too around recognizing the ecosystem that we're creating in our household. Absolutely. Before parents can change, you know, and I'm thinking about people that are listening and maybe they listened to our first episode and maybe they didn't. But I know in my experience and in the experience of a lot of people that I work with, once they realize that their kids are using weed, it is a big fear, worst case scenario trigger. Absolutely. And so I'm thinking about those parents like, OK, I'm listening to this podcast. I want to get some help before we get to the doing. What is the internal experience? What is the internal work that we as parents get to do first to help create some space or hit that pause button when we know what's going on with our kiddo is not something that we want to be happening or even dealing with?

[00:10:59:06 - 00:16:00:15]
Susan Notis
Yeah. So this can be one of the hardest things for parents. This inner workpiece, you are so overwhelmed, you are carrying fear and uncertainty and you're being very vigilant. And this creates like a chronic stress. And I see this so much with moms I'm working with. It shows up even if they're not speaking it and aware of it, it shows up in the way they are going about the world. OK, so they come in and they're so tense, you can see in their body, their hands might be shaking, their voice is like soft and muted because they don't even have the strength to speak. OK, all of these things are because our nervous system is dysregulated. And what I want us to think about when we are thinking about how important it is to regulate our nervous system before we are engaging with our children in those active steps we're going to talk about next. I want us to think about co-regulation and how much our children's energy is fed by our energy. And I like to remind people of the Dog Whisperer. Have you ever watched that show? OK, there's this man called Cesar Milan and he has this show that became really popular, I don't know, maybe five years ago or 10 years ago. But his whole thing was when we show up calm with our dogs, then they find all their behaviors start settling down. Right. And it's the same with kids. So we can't expect them to regulate their own nervous system and find calm within themselves, which is oftentimes what they're chasing with marijuana. We can't ask them to do that if we're not modeling that to them and we're not creating that kind of energy in our house. So learning how to regulate our nervous system is a big step in this inner work that needs to happen. And as far as creating a pause, you mentioned the word pause. What I wanted to bring today was a quote that sits on my desktop computer. It's taped on there and it's by Victor Frankl. He was a Holocaust survivor and it says between stimulus and response, there's a space in that space is our power to choose our response. And our response lies growth and freedom. So I love the like pause button, like you're thinking in your head, maybe you're navigating your radio in your car. And it's just that pause button with the two lines. OK, let me take a pause here. That is another really valuable thing that is so needed is how can I press the pause button when I want to react? Because the goal is to respond instead of reacting. And it's so important oftentimes with teenagers, especially if they're using substances, the amount of time they allow us to be in their space is so little. And so we have to be very careful of our words and being clear about what we're communicating and being effective with our communication. So that pause gives us that space to think about how am I going to respond to this? Yeah. So, you know, the inner work is big. And a thing that I think can be really helpful is in this phase also is to create a toolbox working with a coach. This is like one of the most valuable things I think that can come working with a coach because we're really good at like, OK, we're going to load up your toolbox so that when you are ready to go into the storm, it's like heading into a storm on a road trip. You want to make sure your gas tank is filled because getting through the storm is hard enough. But to then be on the side of the road needing gas because you're broken down, that is like even worse. Right. So having the toolbox is like loading up your toolbox is like making sure you have the gas before you go into the storm, making sure you have the calm music on the radio. So you're driving and you have something that sues you while driving through the storm. So loading up that toolbox so you have some tools about how to effectively communicate is also super helpful in this period of like doing the inner work before we really tackle the dragon.

[00:16:10:09 - 00:18:56:00]
Casey O'Roarty
Yeah. Well, and what I appreciate about that last piece with the toolbox is it also is setting ourselves up to show up, interact in a way that we feel good about. Right. That feels like we are able to get our point across that we're able to demonstrate that we've got them that we can handle what we're moving through. I mean, I think, you know, sometimes parents want to kind of skip over this whole like, oh, it's woo woo. It's not woo woo people to recognize what's happening in your internal experience because when we create this pause, when we give ourselves a chance to make that choice to respond rather than react, it's like this opportunity to get off that emotional freight train. Who's read my book that came out in 2019 knows about the emotional freight train, but get off the emotional freight train and then decide, do I want to be on this thing or do I want to do something different? So the difference between being in the experience versus having the opportunity to look at where you're located is so powerful. And then we really get to have a more thoughtful response. The other thing that I really appreciate about regulation and doing that nervous system work, you know, yes, the co-regulation piece, absolutely. But I also think we're sending a message when we can stay, you know, my words would be, you know, grounded and centered, shoulders back, calm, open. We're sending this message to our kids around like, you know what? I can handle this. I can be with this. I'm going to keep showing up with you. I'm not flying off the handle. I'm not freaking out. You don't have to protect me, hide from me, worry about what I'm going to do because I'm good and I'm here for you. So I just wanted to kind of double down on this internal work because it can feel like, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, I know that parents are in this place of just wanting, you know, answers. And, you know, this internal work, not only like I said, is sending this message, keeping us more response-able, but it's also the stepping stone towards those tools. Right? Because if we're flooded and our nervous system is going bonkers, we don't have access to, you know, quality communication and slowing things down and being curious and listening deeply. You know, it's just not available to us because we're in our fight or flight. Right. Absolutely.

[00:18:56:00 - 00:18:58:09]
Susan Notis
Yeah. 100 percent. I agree with all of it.

[00:18:58:09 - 00:19:40:15]
Casey O'Roarty
Yeah. Confirmed. Confirmed. Yes. Let's talk a little bit about communication, right? Because I think that is I want to get into, you know, the tools. I do have another question about triggers, but I feel like we've kind of, you know, identified this internal nervous system work is important. And now let's move into communication because I think that's the piece where it's like, oh, my gosh, how do I talk to my kid about this? How do I get them to hear me? What is the most common communication mistake or some of the most common communication mistakes that well-meaning parents make when they're trying to talk to their teens about cannabis?

[00:19:40:15 - 00:19:52:05]
Susan Notis
I think my number one thing that I see that backfires is being in fix it mode. You know, OK.

[00:19:52:05 - 00:19:58:00]
Casey O'Roarty
Which makes sense that we want to be there, right? It makes sense that we're like, I got to fix this, make this go right.

[00:19:58:00 - 00:22:09:22]
Susan Notis
Right. Right. The idea what comes from being fixed at mode is now where we're reacting, we're demanding, we're lecturing, we're judging, we're criticizing. And really, what we want to do is lead the horse to water. OK, we can say it to our blue in the face, but they need to come to the conclusion themselves that this is a change that needs to happen in their life. So one of the things that I think is useful to do is moving from lecturing and inquiring, going from suggesting too much and listing and educating and switching to inquiring, which. Yeah, might look like one phrase I have used ever since my kids were like in kindergarten. I learned this from a kindergarten teacher is I wonder, I love it. And I think it creates this space where you can inquire instead of suggesting. So it can be like I was wondering what kinds of things were helpful when you were little, when you were little, what kinds of things. Do you remember that made you feel really relaxed if we're trying to identify like, OK, what are some things that they can do to relax instead of using pot? It's like using this I wonder statement to inquire and lead them to the water of like, oh, well, when I was little, it actually I really loved just going my room and shutting the door and having quiet and looking out the window or whatever it was when they were a little like, you know, going outside and sitting in the grass or it helps them create an inner dialogue of the things they can do to start replacing what they're getting from the marijuana. Yeah, so that, you know, there's, of course, those quick angry responses. I see a lot too. And that's definitely something that, you know, we talked about with the pause button. So those are the two biggest challenges I see parents have.

[00:22:09:22 - 00:25:02:16]
Casey O'Roarty
Yeah, I love that invitation from Fix It to inquiry or curiosity. I've got a little sequence of prompts that I often will mention to parents to to kind of crack open that door because what I'm hearing you say is, you know, well, one, that reflection of there are other ways that I can meet my needs beyond this substance. But also, you know, I want to when I think about curiosity, I really think of it as this opportunity to support my young person in continuously developing their own critical thinking. And kind of as the and we might have talked about this in our first episode as well. And I talk about it a lot on the podcast, but almost as if like, OK, I'm going to be the external critical thinking for a while. So as to help my child strengthen those muscles, I'm just going to share listeners with you. Like it's just four simple things to keep in your back pocket for reflection, starting with, hey, I notice. I wonder. So there's your wonder. Tell me more about that. And how can I help? Or do you need support or what do you need? Right. So really starting with especially our kids that are using substances. Hey, I notice it seems like your cannabis use is getting heavier in the evening. I'm wondering about that. I'm wondering if it's a part of your bedtime routine or your sleep. Tell me more, right, because we always want to be drawing forth. Right. And then, you know, can I help with that or can I offer my thoughts? Something that my daughter taught me and my relationship with her was asking permission. I'm wondering if I can share a little bit. Right. So that curiosity as a communication tool is so powerful. Absolutely. And timing. I'm terrible with timing. I'm like, have a thought. Must speak it. So I'm always working to be with my own like urgency. Right. And remember timing because we can think of it kind of as traffic lights and reading the room. Right. Paying attention to whether is this a green light moment or is this a red light moment? You know, for you, what does that look like? How can we judge if it's the right timing to be having conversations about use with our kiddo? And what can we do to help ourselves when it's, well, either help ourselves or to know when that light is red and now is not the time. What do you think?

[00:25:02:16 - 00:27:09:17]
Susan Notis
Yeah. The power of observation is so important. OK, so really tuning in to all of the signs and that can be like the simplest thing in body language. Right. Is their back. Are they kind of turning their back towards you? That's a red light. They're not making eye contact and they're not available to you. Little things like, you know, seeing behaviors like they're moving really quickly around a space like, oh, they're in the kitchen and the cabinets are slamming. OK, that's a red light. They're not in the space to hear anything right now. You talked about this last time I was here, but Haltz, you know, that hungry, angry, lonely, tired stone. Over their senses are overwhelmed. That's like I had feedback from my mom that she listened to the first podcast and that was like, it's become her mantra now. Like she replays it in her head for when to approach a conversation. If they're using phrases like, not now, mom, OK, that's a clear red red light. And, you know, when we speed past red lights and an intersection, that's when we crash. OK, so we don't want to crash the conversation. We want to wait and see when we are seeing the green lights coming. So the yellow is like pausing and waiting for them to show up. Right. And when we see some green lights, here's some green lights. They're lingering more in the family's common space. Maybe they're eating dinner and kind of sticking around a little. Their body language starts to relax. They are starting conversations with you instead of always just being in the response mode. And what I think is just like the biggest green light is when you ask them like, hey, do you want to go take a walk tonight? It's such a beautiful night outside. And they start saying yes to those things.

[00:27:10:18 - 00:27:31:06]
Susan Notis
I love like a phrase that I call walkie talkie. When kids sometimes they need that side by side and movement happening for conversations, I think those can be some of, wow, the most meaningful conversations in my parenting career have come from walkie talkie moments. Yeah.

[00:27:31:06 - 00:29:21:13]
Casey O'Roarty
Susan, do you think so? Like, yes, yes, I think this is all so important and that power of observation and just noticing the energetic vibe. And also, I don't want anyone listening to think like, okay, I need to wait for my child to be ready to have these conversations as if, you know, things get misinterpreted and misunderstood. So I want to also say, and I want to also offer, you know, another tool on top of, yes, paying attention and maybe the green light moment is the moment you say, hey, I want to have a conversation with you about your relationship with cannabis. Can we do that now or would you rather do that after dinner? Right. So I think this is another communication tool that we can use with our kiddos, which is, you know, the firmness is we're going to have a conversation about this. And the kindness relational piece is that limited choice around you might not be ready for this right now. I'm not going to spring this on you. Right. I'm going to give you a choice and then following through, you know, and we will have kiddos that say, I don't want to have that conversation with you. And listeners, I see you. I know, I know that moment. And you get to soften and smile and say, I know me neither. Would you rather have it now or after dinner? Right. So we get to be that confident authority, not dictator, but that confident leader. And holds the firmness of this is something that we get to explore. And I'm open to, you know, giving you some choice and autonomy inside of of the structure of this happening.

[00:29:21:13 - 00:30:26:11]
Susan Notis
Yeah, absolutely. And compassionate and firm can happen at the same time. Right. It should. Yeah, for sure. So keeping that in mind and yeah, one of the most powerful things that I think can happen is also taking your own responsibility and how maybe you're contributing to why they might be using and taking accountability when you have overstepped and done things like overreacted. Yeah. Those are like, for me, have been two of the most powerful things in shifting my parenting with my teens when they hear you say, oh my, like, I'm so sorry. Last night, I just really overstepped the boundaries and I saw that the way I was talking to you really shut you down and how we communicate and having open communication and making you feel safe with me is really important.

[00:30:27:11 - 00:30:27:19]
Susan Notis
That

[00:30:29:06 - 00:30:48:02]
Susan Notis
I don't know for my family. And I think I've heard from other families that that can be such an important piece because when we're taking accountability for our misbehaviors, they feel safer taking accountability for where they are screwing up to.

[00:30:48:02 - 00:32:58:07]
Casey O'Roarty
Totally. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. I think that's so powerful and it's tricky, right? Because we're not here blaming parents for their teenager's choices. However, we, anyone who is involved in a dynamic with another person has influence on the dynamic. Right. Right. And I, you know, because I want to be really careful about this. Kids, you know, part of the teen brain development is novelty seeking. It is peer engagement. It is that individuation. There's so many layers to what's going on during the season for them. And because behavior makes sense, some of our kids land in a place where it is logical, logical, quote, to be using. And so we can do all the right things, have a really strong relationship, right? All the things in our kids still might be at that choice point and think, you know what, that does look kind of fun. I will try that out and have it become something that moves from experimentation to occasional to social to more regular use. So listeners just wanting to mention that as well. And so many of us are navigating this challenge. So another piece as well, and this comes from ITC, the Invitation to Change Program. One of the tools they talk about is the information sandwich, the information sandwich. So we started, you know, earlier in this conversation, highlighting, you know, wasn't big, but we mentioned like lecturing them, you know, researching them into this like, oh, thanks. Now I won't do this anymore is not useful. It doesn't really get us to where we want to go. So what is an information sandwich look like as a communication tool specifically with a teenager who is using or misusing substances?

[00:32:58:07 - 00:34:33:14]
Susan Notis
So the information is where so many people want to get to. That needs to be the meat in the sandwich. OK, so that's in the middle. But before we get there, we are using a tool that you mentioned earlier asking for permission or we can also look at it as being super curious. So we want to start with things like I heard something really interesting today. I was wondering what you thought about it. Do you have time now for me to share what I heard? Maybe it's something. OK, let's get to the meat now. Yeah. What it can be like is like, oh, I listened to this podcast and I heard that regular cannabis use can make it harder for you to stay motivated and remember things. And I also kind of recalling that you're really upset about your last report card. And I know that school has been feeling really hard for you. And so you're like putting the information that you learned about motivation and memory being affected by cannabis in the middle. That's the meat. And then that bottom part of the sandwich is returning it to them. And I think this is very similar to the framework you used earlier. It's like I want to understand what your thoughts are on that. Like, yeah, what do you think about that? And it's just a way to show our concerns without triggering defensiveness.

[00:34:33:14 - 00:37:34:09]
Casey O'Roarty
Yeah, I was thinking about another example. Perhaps I love the sandwich model. But and it requires that we're paying a lot of attention. Right. So maybe you've had conversations and even as I say this, like, it requires our kids to really feel safe to talk with us. I think we have a variety of relationships probably that are listening, a variety of parents with different kinds of relationships with their kiddos. But if you can keep it really curious and open, you might hear something like, well, you know, smoking pot helps me with my anxiety. Like, that's something we hear a lot from kiddos and adults. And it turns out cannabis is not creates more anxiety in our brains and bodies. And so perhaps even it could sound like, you know, I was thinking about how you shared with me that smoking has is something that is helpful to you with your anxiety. I just read a really interesting article about how cannabis actually creates more anxiety in the brain. I'm wondering if you would be interested in hearing more. Right. So there's that little bit. I think that another tool that is so useful with, like, softening their reception of us and conversation and communication is validating them. Absolutely. Like, I hear you. This is what I heard you say. It makes sense that you feel like this. Absolutely. And that, you know, helps the human brain, not only the teen brain, when we feel seen in our experience and accepted in our experience. We're not accepting the behavior. We're not saying, like, good for you, you know? But I see you inside of this. This makes sense. There is a opening. There can be an opening there into more conversation. And I think that's really powerful. I also think, and you can tell me what you see with the parents, when there is a behavior like regular cannabis use, so much of our parenting becomes hyper-focused on that thing. And it's like we've got a whole pie, right? But all we really see or pay attention to is that sliver or quarter, right? Right. I mean, it's a piece. It's a significant piece. Not going to diminish it. But we get so hyper-focused that we miss or, you know, on some level devalue all the other things that are happening in their life, right? Especially with a kid who's maybe not, you know, there's a continuum of use and a range of how affected their everyday life has become because of their use. How do you encourage parents to start noticing and reinforcing what's going right?

[00:37:35:12 - 00:37:38:23]
Casey O'Roarty
Especially when, yeah, it feels like there isn't a lot to celebrate.

[00:37:38:23 - 00:40:44:16]
Susan Notis
Yeah. And I think there's some things that can get in the way of noticing the positives besides our fixation on the problem. I think that we have to kind of lower our expectations, right? If they're in this place of regular use, we cannot expect them to be operating the same way our other teen operated at their age or the neighbor's teen is operating. And that might be very disappointing to you. I think celebrating the very little things that they can accomplish makes them feel like I can accomplish small steps. And when we can accomplish small steps, we can accomplish taking on the really hard stuff, right? So I think that can get in the way. But when we can start noticing even the smallest little things, like when they're honest about their use, you can mention like, wow, I really am so happy. It makes me so happy that you can be honest about your use. If they've made a healthy choice in their life, if they're like, oh, you know, I went to yoga with my friend. Oh my gosh. You know, you have to kind of overdo it. And that feels sometimes like it's not the right choice. When our kids are little, we're taught to have them intrinsically know how to do things instead of constant praise. Right? Right. And but we have to go to this place where we're like almost overly praising. And yeah, it can feel unnatural based on everything else that we learn in the parenting sphere. And I have a whole workbook that I had created a while back that you can get on my website for free. It's called Look for the Good, Find Connection. And there's three exercises in there. One's just a journaling exercise where you are purposely looking for the good moments in a day where you notice something little about your kid and you're journaling about that. But another one is how to identify and speak your child's love language. Seeing where they light up in a day and then fostering those moments through choices you are making. And then the last one is just understanding their temperament and honoring their temperament. Because everyone has their own temperament and there's good and bad parts of everybody's temperament. And so it's really looking at even like, okay, we'll go back to ADHD. There are so many negative, smudgy, but there's so many superpowers, right? So we need to like go back to like seeing what is the positive thing in this day instead of the negative thing. When they know that we see them, we see the successes that they're having in their life, then it can feel so rewarding to them. And they want to do that more. Yeah.

[00:40:44:16 - 00:40:51:07]
Casey O'Roarty
Oh,

[00:40:54:16 - 00:44:16:23]
Casey O'Roarty
yeah, they want to be seen and we'll go to great lengths to wave the flag, the energetic flag, right? See me. When you were talking about those little celebrations, those baby celebrations, it made me think so in positive discipline. And so I'm going to talk about the belief behind behavior and we have a whole tool called the Mistaken Goal Chart. And one of the places that kids can end up is this mistaken idea that I just don't matter. And the best thing to do is make sure nobody notices. And there's this, you know, when it comes to risk-taking or substance misuse, there's this idea of, well, this is all I'm good for. And so offering those little celebrations is a stepping stone into a new belief about themselves. And I hear what you're saying about like praise and overpraise, but I want to push back just a little bit and reframe that into like there's lots of ways that we can be encouraging. There's a lot and, you know, some people might say, well, that's just semantics, Casey, but because I'm a positive discipline person, we make a big distinction between praise and encouragement. And the thing I love about encouragement, especially empowering encouragement, is it invites the parent to name the skill or name the characteristic that they're seeing. Like, you know, you got up and got to school on time this morning and, you know, that took a lot of follow through. You did it. Yeah. Right. You did it. You got up and got to school or you had to make a tough phone call to your boss today and that took a lot of courage. And I saw it. Yeah. Right. So I do think that there is like, as we talk about like reinforcing the good, I do think it's important to also bring substance to it as well so that they can start to fill in their own space because we're thinking, oh my God, all I can focus on is their weed use. They're also having an experience of something kind of taking center stage in their life. And so we get to as well help them remember all the parts of themselves through this kind of positive reinforcement for sure. And then, you know, what about natural consequences? Because I mean, I love natural consequences just in general. I think we start to get really worried when our kids are misusing substances and cannabis because we're already worried about them. Right. And it's almost like, okay, what can we do to minimize the damage because we don't want anything permanent to happen. Like we're full of worst case scenarios. Absolutely. Right. So we're doing things like waking them up so they don't miss school or work. We're covering for them. Right. We're cleaning up their messes and we're kind of robbing them of the tension that can show up naturally when they're getting into this kind of mischief. And also, there are very real consequences that can show up. So how do you help parents figure out which are the natural consequences that are safe that feel okay to kind of step away and allow the unfolding versus those places of intervention?

[00:44:16:23 - 00:46:37:20]
Susan Notis
The question I ask people to consider is, is this consequence just painful and uncomfortable or is it dangerous? So there's uncomfortable consequences like getting fired from a job, failing a class at school and having to go to summer school. Grandma comes in visits and their room is a pigsty because they just can't handle even cleaning the room. Right. Like there's the things like that that I think are very good to let them have those consequences. When they're having consequences, that is the golden moment. Oftentimes for them to want to seek help. So we don't want to like not allow those things to happen. But the dangerous consequences that I think are important to pay attention to are really big physical consequences of the use. So when we talked about hypermemesis disorder, I always mispronounce it. But the constant throwing up that can happen when a teen is using that can lead to esophageal problems that can lead to a child throwing up so much that they're malnourished and they don't have enough nourishment. They're becoming extremely thin, their hair's falling out. You know, if they're putting themselves in situations that could lead to unsafe things like could they be in a situation where they could get raped? Could they be in a situation where they're in a park and there's a gun battle that happens? Like these things happen. Yeah. When kids are under the influence. And so those are the things are especially like once it goes to a mental health place where there's psychosis happening and marijuana is linked to schizophrenia. So if there's extreme paranoia or any kinds of signs of schizophrenia starting to pop up, like that is where I say you need to step in. This is not one of those consequences that we just need to have them suffer through.

[00:46:37:20 - 00:46:59:01]
Casey O'Roarty
Well, and when you say you need to step in, like, is that the place where it's bigger than us and it's time to look for professional help? When do we know that we're up against that? To me, it seems like, well, if my kid is throwing up and can't stop throwing up and is losing hair, like, I'm looking for help. Yeah. And who am I calling?

[00:46:59:01 - 00:48:26:17]
Susan Notis
Right. Big questions. Yes. I think when we get into seeing a lot of those danger, the dangerous column that I just listed, that's when I really suggest considering professional help. And everybody's tolerance is different too. Like you might feel that the rest of the family is suffering so much from this child's misuse that your limit is less than somebody else's, you know, it would be like, you know, I can't manage this. I'm missing days from work. My other child is being neglected because I'm focusing so much on this child. So everybody has their own line that crosses when they need to get help. So I really love certain places that you can get advice. SAMHSA is the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration. It is through our government and it is still up and going through changes in the administration in things. So that number is 800-662-HELP. They oftentimes will assign you an, like an addiction mentor type of peer person who has been through this journey before. And they often have access to, you know, programs that might be worth exploring for your child.

[00:48:26:17 - 00:48:37:23]
Casey O'Roarty
Considering the climate that we live in right now, have there started to become places for teens that focus specifically on pot and cannabis?

[00:48:37:23 - 00:50:13:17]
Susan Notis
I know for sure, like there are in my area, there is a community center that is offering a program just for kids using cannabis. So it's worth checking in your area for community programs like that. This is like really the underlying reason why I started my support group is because just like teens saying, I don't want to go to an AA meeting because when I get there, I'm sitting next to someone who is trying to stay off of opioids. And they overdosed and died once and they just don't feel like they're worthy of being there. Like my problem's not big enough. That is why I think these programs that just defer people or parents struggling with cannabis. Parents concerned about their kids cannabis use are so important because it is a totally unique thing. It's a totally unique place that they're in. Yeah. So those things are out there. Guy and counselors, if your child's still in high school, I found that they're like super resourceful sometimes. Doctors, psychiatrists, therapists sometimes are good resources, but I encourage parents that when use is starting to accelerate that they start looking into these things. So they just have an idea of what's out there.

[00:50:13:17 - 00:51:41:03]
Casey O'Roarty
And I really appreciate it. I think we might've talked about this before I hit record, but the group that you're running, I just know from my own experience of running groups and having a membership, like the relief that comes from sitting either virtually or physically next to somebody else who's like, yeah, me too, is so powerful when we can sit in a circle of people who can say, Oh yeah, me too. That's happening at my house too. And we feel safe to share because we live in this like polished social media world where we feel like we're the only ones who are navigating the hard things because nobody wants to broadcast it on Instagram, nor should they, but still what they are broadcasting is everything's good here. Yeah. You know, so I just really, listeners will make sure that Susan, all of Susan's information is in the show notes so you can look into her program if that feels like something that would be supportive to you even before you get to the point of like, Oh my God, this is not going away. This is only getting worse and now we need professional help. My guess is being active in a group like yours gives you a pool of resources. Right. Even before you need to necessarily seek them out. So I really appreciate that.

[00:51:41:03 - 00:51:43:06]
Susan Notis
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I

[00:51:44:09 - 00:52:15:00]
Susan Notis
have heard from parents that it can be like so lonely. They won't even talk to their teens, friend group, the other moms. Like, are you seeing this? Is this concerning? And they're like, completely shut down. The parents are either in denial or they're just not present enough to even observe or they're in the place of like, I don't see the problem in this. Right? So yeah, I can feel very isolating. Yeah, for sure.

[00:52:15:00 - 00:52:24:16]
Casey O'Roarty
Well, as we wrap, what's one thing that you want parents that are listening today to walk away believing about themselves and about their teens?

[00:52:24:16 - 00:52:49:12]
Susan Notis
I think it's like to give yourself some grace. Give yourself some grace. This work is big and change doesn't happen from one big dramatic thing. Change happens from little baby steps and it's going to take time. And as long as you're taking the steps, like good for you, because there's so many parents who are not.

[00:52:50:13 - 00:54:18:18]
Susan Notis
And to think about it in the big picture, the work that comes from what needs to change in your family to be able to get your child to accept the help that work stays with you forever. Like, it changes your dynamic in your relationships, not only with your children, like this stuff overflows into your work life, into your romantic relationships. Like when you learn how to communicate with them, it works everywhere. And like, lastly, I think I've seen success stories. Lots. Like, I think that's so helpful for parents to hear. Like, I've seen the kids who are in just such a dark place and they're failing out of school and change happens. And they get to a place where if their goal is to graduate with a degree in medicine, there are kids that are getting there and it is possible even when they're in a really dark place. So to know change can happen. You don't have to accept, okay, my kid's just going to be, you know, living with me for the rest of my life. And, you know, it can happen. And yeah, just know that. Yeah. I think it gives people hope to know that the success stories out there.

[00:54:20:03 - 00:54:23:04]
Casey O'Roarty
What does joyful courage mean to you today, Susan?

[00:54:23:04 - 00:55:14:02]
Susan Notis
Joyful courage today means that joy that comes from when we are courageous, you know. And I think this works for kids too. Like we were saying, when you notice they're taking big steps in being brave by addressing a big problem in their life, like how much that can transform how you operate and what your internal state is. Like, yeah, being courageous and just even us talking about this topic that nobody wants to talk about. Well, everyone wants to ignore. Like, I hope it's the same for you, Casey. It just gives me joy to know that we're doing it. We're being courageous. We're doing this and it's going to affect somebody's life in a positive way.

[00:55:14:02 - 00:55:20:23]
Casey O'Roarty
Remind everybody where they can find you and follow your work and check out your circle.

[00:55:20:23 - 00:55:48:19]
Susan Notis
So my business name is In Balance Life and Parent Coaching. So you can find me on social media. If you look up in Balance Life and Parent Coaching, and my website is exactly that. InbalanceLifeAndParentCoaching.com. And I can give you, Casey, for the show notes, a direct link to join the Cannabis Conversation Circle. Perfect. I'm happy to be of support to parents in this season.

[00:55:48:19 - 00:56:11:08]
Casey O'Roarty
Yes. Well, I'm glad that you're out there supporting. Thank you. Thank you so much for spending time with me again. I think we did it. I think we covered all of those pieces and listeners. Check the show notes. Get in touch with Susan. Get in touch with me. Let us know how we can further support you. But thank you so much, Susan, for coming on and having this important conversation.

[00:56:11:08 - 00:56:13:03]
Susan Notis
Thank you, Casey, for having me.

[00:56:13:03 - 00:56:16:22]
Casey O'Roarty
Thank

[00:56:18:15 - 00:56:59:07]
Casey O'Roarty
you so much for listening. Thank you to my sproutable partners, Julieta and Alana. Thank you, Danielle, for supporting with the show notes, as well as Chris Mann and the team at Podshaper for all the support with getting the show out there and making it sound good. As I mentioned, sharing is caring. If you're willing to pass on this episode to others or take a few minutes to rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, it helps other parents find this useful content. Be sure to check out what we have going on for parents of kids of all ages and sign up for our newsletter to stay connected at Bsproutable.com. I see you doing all the things. I believe in you. See you next time.

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