Eps 677: Out-of-Control Teenagers with Scott Sells.

“Courage is not giving up. Sometimes the definition of a parent with, uh, kids with extreme problems is getting up the next day. … And the joy comes with it when you realize that there’s drivers underneath the surface that come with the absence of joy and laughter … and caring, that it’s taken its toll fight after fight after fight. But there’s a way out. … You just have to do something different …” – Dr. Scott Sells

Resouces:

• Parenting Your Out-of-Control Teenager: 8 Strategies to Reestablish Authority and Reclaim Love (Revised Edition), Dr. Scott Sells
• Scott’s free monthly webinar and parent coaching: https://extremeteen.com
• Parenting with Love and Limits (Scott’s treatment model): link blank
• Bark (the monitoring app Scott mentions)
• Book an Explore Call with Casey: https://www.besproutable.com/explore

Transcription

[00:00:00] Casey O'Roarty: Welcome, welcome. Welcome to the Joyful Courage Podcast. This is a place where parents of tweens and teens come to find inspiration, information, and encouragement in the messy terrain of adolescence. This season of parenting is no joke, and while the details of what we're all moving through might be slightly different, we are indeed having a very collective experience.
[00:00:30] This is a space where we center building relationship, nurturing life skills, and leaning into our own personal growth, and man, the opportunities abound, right? My name is Casey O'Rourty. I am a parent coach, positive discipline lead trainer, and captain of the adolescent ship over at Sproutable. I'm also a speaker and a published author.
[00:00:53] I've been working with parents and families for over 20 years and continue to navigate my own experience of being a mom with my two young adult kids. I'm so honored that you're here and listening. Please give back to the podcast by sharing it with friends or on social media. Rate and review us on Apple or Spotify.
[00:01:13] Word of mouth is how we grow. Thank you so, so much. Enjoy the show.
[00:01:23] Okay, parents, I am gonna be talking specifically to a very certain kind of parent today. You will know if it's you, because you are the parent whose house doesn't look like the houses on the parenting posts that you're seeing. There's yelling, maybe there's holes in the drywall, or a teen who hasn't gone to school in three weeks, and you've quietly stopped telling people the truth about how bad it's gotten.
[00:01:50] Maybe you've read the books, you've tried the connection thing over and over and over, and it just isn't landing, and somewhere in there you start to wonder if you're the problem.
[00:02:00] Dr. Scott Sells: Hmm.
[00:02:00] Casey O'Roarty: Well, my friend, I've brought you someone who has spent 30 years with families right there, the ones the field call extreme, right?
[00:02:10] Those extreme teens, and where the regular advice runs out and stops being helpful. Dr. Scott Sells is here with me, and what he says over and over is that most of these parents aren't failing, they're missing tools that nobody ever handed them. So that's where we're going today. The behavior itself, what's underneath it, and what actually holds when everything else has stopped working.
[00:02:32] We're also gonna talk about the moment you stop white-knuckling this by yourself and let someone in to help. So I want you- Hmm ... to stay with me. Dr. Scott Sells is the founder of two evidence-based treatment models, Parenting with Love, and Limits and Family Systems Trauma. Let me say that again. Parenting with Love and Limits, and Family Systems Trauma, used by therapists across the US and Europe.
[00:02:55] He holds a PhD and an MSW from Florida State. He taught scho- social work at the university level, and he's the author of three books, including Parenting Your Out of Control Teenager, which has sold more than 100,000 copies. He's spent 30 years with families at the hardest end of this work. He's, he lives in Montana with his wife and twin sons.
[00:03:19] He knows this work. He is actively using this work. I'm so happy to have you here today, Dr. Sells. Welcome to the podcast.
[00:03:28] Dr. Scott Sells: Thank you so much, Casey. That was quite an introduction. I hope I can live up to it. So, uh, thanks
[00:03:33] Casey O'Roarty: very much. I believe in you.
[00:03:35] Dr. Scott Sells: Thank you.
[00:03:36] Casey O'Roarty: So you've been doing this work for 30 years.
[00:03:39] Dr. Scott Sells: Yeah.
[00:03:39] Casey O'Roarty: When a family finally lands in front of you- Yeah ... what's actually happening in their house? Where's the line between a teenager- Yeah ... being a teenager and what you call extreme teenage behavior?
[00:03:52] Dr. Scott Sells: Right. That's a great first question. I think it comes down to, you know, the types of behaviors and how long they've been going on.
[00:04:00] Most teens are gonna have normal acting out weeks, days, moodiness, um, times of defiance. But they move to something called extreme when you have disrespect that doesn't last a week, but lasts month after month after month. And that disrespect can escalate even to aggression
[00:04:25] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm
[00:04:26] Dr. Scott Sells: or, uh, extreme things like substance abuse or running away or threats of suicide.
[00:04:34] These types of behaviors are extreme because they go on forever, and like you said in your introduction, the parents white-knuckle it, and it doesn't just go away on its own. And then you have an emotional level of extreme problems like self-harm, anxiety that's on the extreme level, which can even turn into phobias, depression that doesn't last for a week but lasts for a year-
[00:05:03] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm
[00:05:03] Dr. Scott Sells: grief that never seems to heal on its own, attachment that's gone, torched. Parents don't even... I've had parents say, "I love my kid, but I no longer like them anymore." And so extreme is used in the context of length and type of problem.
[00:05:24] Casey O'Roarty: So it's not necessarily always explosive behaviors. Right. So I think when we think about out of control or extreme, there's like this bigness.
[00:05:33] Dr. Scott Sells: Yeah.
[00:05:34] Casey O'Roarty: But what I'm hearing you say, there can also be kind of a closing, almost a closing up, where they're kind of closing in on themselves.
[00:05:43] Dr. Scott Sells: Yeah, like example with my son, uh, started with maybe an hour on his phone, and then started to move into eight hours. Mm-hmm. And it wasn't about the phone anymore, now it was a power struggle, and it lasted month after month after month, and that got extreme.
[00:06:00] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:06:00] Dr. Scott Sells: It wasn't always a blow up, but it was a constant hum in the house of just people on eggshells and the child saying, "I'm in charge, and I want you to be my loyal subject." Yeah. And that often happens when, you know, you have an extreme when the kid wants to be in charge-
[00:06:23] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm ...
[00:06:23] Dr. Scott Sells: and does not accept limits.
[00:06:26] So that's another symptom of out of control type behavior.
[00:06:30] Casey O'Roarty: And I'm hearing you say some things, 'cause I think it's also really useful for parents to kind of not only look outward at what's happening to the kids, but also, like what am I experiencing? Right. I remember in, in our hardest years, there was a lot of feelings of defeat- Right
[00:06:49] and hopelessness. Mm-hmm. Um, I heard you say walking on eggshells, so like the parental anxiety is there. Right. What are some other, like from the parent's
[00:07:00] Dr. Scott Sells: perspective- Yeah, that's good. That's a good... Yeah. I mean, chapter two of the new book is called Flat Out Button Pushing.
[00:07:07] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:07:07] Dr. Scott Sells: And what happens is there's a term that I think parents will relate to, drama equals trauma.
[00:07:13] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:07:13] Dr. Scott Sells: And so what happens is, when you're in constant arguments and power struggles, and you just feel like your kid's pushing your buttons, like rolling your eyes, swearing, ignoring you, telling you, "I don't love you," a lot of parents take that very personal And their age drops emotionally and their judgment clouds Ooh,
[00:07:34] Casey O'Roarty: talk more
[00:07:34] Dr. Scott Sells: about
[00:07:34] Casey O'Roarty: that, their age drops emotionally
[00:07:36] Dr. Scott Sells: Well, I, I saw it first happen in Toys R Us-
[00:07:39] when I was, a three-year-old demanded a toy, and the parent said no, and the kid had a meltdown. Uh-huh. And I looked at my watch, and for every three minutes that parent was engaged in button-pushing, I deducted 10 years off of his age, and before long, I didn't know who the parent was and who the kid was.
[00:07:58] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
[00:07:58] Dr. Scott Sells: And you know what that three-year-old did? He smiled at me in the checkout counter and held up the toy. So, so it wasn't about size-
[00:08:07] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah ...
[00:08:07] Dr. Scott Sells: it was who was more creative.
[00:08:09] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:08:09] Dr. Scott Sells: So we have to stop the button-pushing-
[00:08:12] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah ...
[00:08:13] Dr. Scott Sells: with button busters, like how to exit from an argument- Yeah ... without feeling like you have to keep staying in it, how to not take it personal.
[00:08:21] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:08:22] Dr. Scott Sells: And when parents are feeling that, "Man, why are they pushing my buttons?" Yeah. And of course, parents push the kids' buttons.
[00:08:29] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:08:29] Dr. Scott Sells: It's an old saying, it takes two to tango.
[00:08:32] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:08:32] Dr. Scott Sells: And so button-pushing is very prevalent with extreme problems.
[00:08:36] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. Well, and we say you can always drop the rope.
[00:08:40] Dr. Scott Sells: Yes. Right.
[00:08:42] Casey O'Roarty: Right? Exactly. You can always drop the rope. Yeah. So yes, that's super relatable, and, you know, in your work, you talk about... And, and I'm, and in my work, I like to use the metaphor of the iceberg, right? Yeah, that's a good one. And how often we see, you know, we focus so much on the behavior that we see, right?
[00:09:01] Right. Which would make sense because it's right there in our face, and we want it to stop.
[00:09:07] Dr. Scott Sells: Right.
[00:09:07] Casey O'Roarty: And, you know, in extreme cases, it's like we really want it to stop, and we get extreme with what we're, you know, willing to do- And we're missing oftentimes, and my listeners have heard me talk about this a bunch, we often forget or miss what's actually happening under the surface.
[00:09:27] Dr. Scott Sells: That is so true. Yeah.
[00:09:29] Casey O'Roarty: And anxiety is so prevalent, it seems- Yeah, yeah ... in this generation coming up. And oftentimes, and I know I for sure was the parent- Yeah ... who thinking I was being helpful, was actually making it worse.
[00:09:45] Dr. Scott Sells: Yeah.
[00:09:45] Casey O'Roarty: So what are some things that you see parents doing in these experiences where under the surface is a lot of anxiety?
[00:09:52] Like for my daughter, you know, she would get really sharp and unkind to me-
[00:09:59] Dr. Scott Sells: Right ...
[00:09:59] Casey O'Roarty: when she felt, 'cause she was so deeply uncomfortable and anxious. Yeah, yeah. And I, you know, had, uh, not done a lot of work around not taking it personally, so I- Mm-hmm ... would show up as, "How dare you? How
[00:10:14] Dr. Scott Sells: dare you talk to me like
[00:10:16] Casey O'Roarty: that?"
[00:10:16] Dr. Scott Sells: Yeah, anxiety has got- Yeah ... anxiety has gotten worse. Obviously, we know it's oftentimes triggered with the technology stuff, but regardless, when parents come to me with anxiety, they view it very individualistically. Like, um, you know, it's important, like, to help the child with, like, with your, your daughter, regulation tools, deep breathing.
[00:10:40] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:10:41] Dr. Scott Sells: Um, you know, but there's a connection sometimes that the parent doesn't realize that an anxious kid is often part of an anxious parent.
[00:10:49] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:10:50] Dr. Scott Sells: And so what happens is, is that we can over-accommodate. There's a dance of the anxiety. So the anxiety is shown is not a bad thing, but unless there's eminent danger- Sometimes we have to let our kids go through some of that and not over-accommodate.
[00:11:07] Here's a couple of examples. The child's or teenager's anxious about taking the bus. Instead of working through it, the parent immediately launches into taking the kid to school every day and stops at Starbucks on the way over.
[00:11:21] Casey O'Roarty: Oh my gosh, Scott- Or, you
[00:11:23] Dr. Scott Sells: know- ... were you
[00:11:23] Casey O'Roarty: spying on me in 2018?
[00:11:25] Dr. Scott Sells: No, no. So, um, you know, or for younger children, you know, fear of the dark.
[00:11:32] Yeah. Always sleeping with the parent. So we have to look at this book in one of my chapters is mapping out if you're unintentionally over-accommodating and not allowing your child to experience anxiety, and jumping too quickly into saving them 'cause you're anxious.
[00:11:51] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:11:52] Dr. Scott Sells: And so I try to just look at it as a family problem and a family solution instead of just breaking off the child into individual therapy.
[00:12:04] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:12:04] Dr. Scott Sells: And, uh, the whole is greater than the sum of the parts.
[00:12:07] Casey O'Roarty: Yes.
[00:12:08] Dr. Scott Sells: Yeah, so those are the problems in the book where we just say, "Let's look at it from a different angle." And then I also have a menu of techniques. Parents want specialized tools for specialized problems. Mm-hmm. And they say, "This is why I like this book," because they can literally pick the problem and pick six or seven interventions to try.
[00:12:31] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:12:32] Dr. Scott Sells: And it's written out. So anxiety- Yeah ... is at the top of the list for a lot of people.
[00:12:37] Casey O'Roarty: A framework that I've been developing the last few months is this concept of an intentional ecosystem in the household. Mm-hmm. And at the broadest layer is the parent and the personal growth work of the parent.
[00:12:52] And as I listened to you talk about that anxiety of the family and kind of jokingly reflect on my own behavior, you know, as we were moving through this- Like, the outermost layer is really the growth of the parent, and then the relationship with the child, and then the systems and routines that exist in the household, and then those in-the-moment tools, which your book is a amazing bank with.
[00:13:15] Dr. Scott Sells: Thanks. Thank you.
[00:13:16] Casey O'Roarty: And, you know, two things have shown up even just in the last 10 minutes of our conversation, which is the work of not taking it personally.
[00:13:25] Dr. Scott Sells: Right.
[00:13:25] Casey O'Roarty: Oh, God. So hard. Yeah. And also, our tolerance for their discomfort. Like, to me, those- Yeah, that's hard, especially- Yeah ...
[00:13:34] Dr. Scott Sells: today. I,
[00:13:35] Casey O'Roarty: yeah. Yeah, and those two things- Yeah
[00:13:36] live in that outermost layer. Like, any parent- Yeah ... who's, you know, m- loving and living with an, a, a child with extreme behaviors, you know, without that personal work alongside the work of the child, and you've already said this, like, the family work, you know, uh, the tool- It's hard because, yeah ... the tool doesn't land.
[00:14:00] Dr. Scott Sells: Yeah.
[00:14:01] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:14:02] Dr. Scott Sells: Yeah, I'm finding with that with my son right now, who's experiencing recovery from addiction, and, like, when he starts to get anxious You know, I have to go back to my book and look at- Those mirror
[00:14:11] Casey O'Roarty: neurons.
[00:14:12] Dr. Scott Sells: Yes ... yeah, I'm right there. I'm ready to go in and save him. Yeah. Um, and I'm like, then he doesn't develop resiliency.
[00:14:19] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:14:20] Dr. Scott Sells: And we're missing resiliency in our kids, and now we've got kids that are growing up feeling entitlement.
[00:14:26] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:14:27] Dr. Scott Sells: Like, "I deserve this without even having to work for it-
[00:14:31] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah ...
[00:14:31] Dr. Scott Sells: because everything's been given to me. As soon as I have discomfort, I get instant gratification."
[00:14:37] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:14:37] Dr. Scott Sells: And that's a dangerous trap that parents don't mean to, but they can get into very easily.
[00:14:44] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. Yeah. And I always appreciate when my guests, who are the experts- Oh, good ... also can very much g- stay very human, right? Yeah. Like, we can know the things, and listeners, you've heard me say this, we can know the things, and the putting it into practice is where communities like mine, communities like yours, when people can really be in community with others as they learn these things- Mm
[00:15:10] that's where so, like, that's where real transformation- Mm-hmm ... and integration can happens. Yeah. And I'm gonna have, um, Dr. Sells talk about his community in a little bit. What about trauma? Um, th- 'cause I think that, you know, we, I think parents, it's e- almost easier to sit inside of, like, they're just being defiant-
[00:15:33] Dr. Scott Sells: Right
[00:15:33] Casey O'Roarty: than it is to kind of expand, again, into that iceberg metaphor or, or be in the question of is there something unhealed here? Is there something that has happened? How do we know the... And is there a difference? I mean, are there kids that are... I don't believe that there's kids that are just a pain in the ass coming out, you know?
[00:15:55] Dr. Scott Sells: No, there's often a mixture of the trauma and the limits together. Mm-hmm. That's why I call it balanced parenting.
[00:16:02] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:16:03] Dr. Scott Sells: Parenting with love and limits, because if you do just gentle parenting and set no limits, then you're in trouble there. Yeah. But if you do authoritative parenting and have no relationship- Rules without relationships lead to rebellion.
[00:16:19] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. Right? Authoritarian.
[00:16:20] Dr. Scott Sells: Yeah. Right? Authoritarian. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So with aggression, for example, to your point around trauma, in the book I go through a paint by numbers kit where parents get to say, "Okay, is the undercurrent that's driving the aggression connected to the trauma of our relationship is, like, I'm not catching my kid doing something right.
[00:16:43] I'm only catching him doing something wrong."
[00:16:45] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:16:46] Dr. Scott Sells: And what do I do to realign that even if the aggression is going on, I can't just not put limits with that-
[00:16:52] Casey O'Roarty: Right ...
[00:16:53] Dr. Scott Sells: but let's work on the relationship that's driving the aggression. So parents stay up here at the surface and pull weeds-
[00:17:01] Casey O'Roarty: Yes ...
[00:17:02] Dr. Scott Sells: and they're not connecting to the driving force of how trauma, you know, is connected to the behavior problem.
[00:17:10] Yeah. Uh, another classic example is self-medicating with drugs and alcohol. What's going on underneath that that's driving? I had a kid the other day, what was going through it is he had grief issues.
[00:17:22] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:17:23] Dr. Scott Sells: You know, nobody ever talked about the loss he felt from his grandfather. But there wasn't a family therapist to help bring it out.
[00:17:31] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:17:31] Dr. Scott Sells: So he kept going to individual treatment and then residential treatment, but nobody got to the root-
[00:17:38] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah ...
[00:17:38] Dr. Scott Sells: which was the grief.
[00:17:40] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:17:40] Dr. Scott Sells: So I try to do the best job I can to help parents start to think differently- Mm-hmm ... to parent differently.
[00:17:48] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:17:58] You know, and I've had clients, you know, 'cause I work primarily, like you, with... Well, I don't know if like you, but with parents of teenagers.
[00:18:05] Dr. Scott Sells: Yeah.
[00:18:05] Casey O'Roarty: And some of the parents that I work with are only just now in the teen years realizing, like, "Oh, I've got more to learn about parenting." Like, what they did in, you know, zero to 10, zero to 12, you know, looked useful, right?
[00:18:21] Yeah. And, and now their kids are teenagers, and what they're realizing is, "Actually, the methods that I employed were quite hurtful. They kept order- Yeah ... for as long as it could- Right ... but now I've got a teenager who's moving through typical teen brain development-" Right ... which includes recognizing that the parent is not the know-all, be-all human, and they're kinda pissed.
[00:18:49] Dr. Scott Sells: Yeah.
[00:18:49] Casey O'Roarty: And I have actually coached parents around acknowledging and repairing some of the damage that they perhaps, in doing the best they c- we're all doing the best we can with the tools we have. This is not a place where I want anyone to feel shame.
[00:19:06] Dr. Scott Sells: Yeah.
[00:19:07] Casey O'Roarty: But it is, there is something to acknowledge, right?
[00:19:10] Yeah. There is something to acknowledge. Have you worked with parents around that and seen some mending in relationship when parents are willing to be vulnerable?
[00:19:20] Dr. Scott Sells: Yeah, I mean, they don't real- they blame themselves, and I say, "Don't blame yourself. What worked at zero to 10 doesn't work from 10 to 16 or 10 to 18."
[00:19:31] And so a lot of parents are reading this book as a preventative primer-
[00:19:35] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm ...
[00:19:35] Dr. Scott Sells: for the future, and here's one concrete example. The teenager's friends become their second family.
[00:19:42] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:19:42] Dr. Scott Sells: Uh, you know, because adolescence peer groups are really important.
[00:19:46] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah, yeah.
[00:19:47] Dr. Scott Sells: And if that p- and birds of a feather flock together.
[00:19:50] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:19:51] Dr. Scott Sells: So if that peer group is kinda stealing or doing things, they'll tend to do that.
[00:19:56] Casey O'Roarty: They want
[00:19:56] Dr. Scott Sells: belonging. But then they, and then they just drop the relationship because the teen says, you know, on the surface, "I don't wanna spend time with you." But I say that teens don't always know what's in their best interests.
[00:20:08] So I'll say to the parent, "Even though it looks, on the surface, that your teen doesn't need you or want you, contend for breakfast. Don't take no for an answer." Mm-hmm. "You may not have a good time-
[00:20:20] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm ...
[00:20:20] Dr. Scott Sells: but your teen still needs that connection, but it's not gonna look the same as a 10-year-old saying, 'Yeah, Dad, yeah, Mom, let's hold hands while we go to the park.'"
[00:20:30] Yeah. But the relationship matters. I can't tell you how that advice was a game changer with my family-
[00:20:38] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah ...
[00:20:38] Dr. Scott Sells: where everything in me was like, "Ugh, I need more limits," and I still had to contend for the relationship and do special outings. Mm-hmm. And just the other day one of my sons says You've changed.
[00:20:51] Casey O'Roarty: Mm.
[00:20:51] Dr. Scott Sells: You love me unconditionally, and it makes me wanna behave better so-
[00:20:57] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah ...
[00:20:58] Dr. Scott Sells: so I- Yeah ... feel for parents that developmentally they have to change tactics, but if they don't have a playbook, they're gonna keep doing the same thing over and over again and hope it gets better results, so-
[00:21:11] Casey O'Roarty: Right.
[00:21:12] Dr. Scott Sells: Yeah ... that's such a good point you, uh, touched on there.
[00:21:15] It's very... It's not spoken enough.
[00:21:17] Casey O'Roarty: Well, and I think what you just said about relationship, I mean, that's what was the through line for us, and I think what really allowed, you know, my daughter to find her feet and thrive. Even though inside of the container of that period of time, I was like, "How is she ever gonna be okay?"
[00:21:39] Dr. Scott Sells: Right. Right.
[00:21:40] Casey O'Roarty: I don't know. But today she's okay, and I'm gonna watch this show with her, and I'm gonna encourage her to do one small thing. And you know this from what you've lived with your family. Like, everything, it does get small. It does become... I mean, I had to really shut off future, future- Right
[00:21:58] future and just- Well, another- ... be inside of today ...
[00:22:00] Dr. Scott Sells: another also to the parent is how are you gonna be okay-
[00:22:03] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah ...
[00:22:03] Dr. Scott Sells: you know, during this process? Yeah. Like, well, I don't have time to go out with my friends. How can you not?
[00:22:09] Casey O'Roarty: Find it. Yeah.
[00:22:10] Dr. Scott Sells: Uh, you gotta find it, uh- Yeah ... because if your, if your batteries are at zero with all these extreme behaviors, you're not gonna be the best version of yourself.
[00:22:21] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:22:22] Dr. Scott Sells: And, uh- Yeah, for sure ... so yeah, so I think that's why family work is so near and dear to my heart-
[00:22:28] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah ...
[00:22:28] Dr. Scott Sells: for, because for this type of problem, family work is key.
[00:22:32] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:22:33] Dr. Scott Sells: Yep. Yep.
[00:22:34] Casey O'Roarty: And you'd already talked about love and limits, and Positive Discipline- Yeah ... we, we call it kindness and firmness, and I think the most important word in that phrase is the and.
[00:22:45] Right? It's not love or limits. It's, it- It's not kind or firm. And I think we, most of us were raised, and I think we, it's mirrored in a lot of, in a lot of places in our culture, where it is either kind or firm, or love- Yeah ... or limits. Yeah, yeah. And so it is an, it's a big ask. I know when I work with parents, it's a big ask for them to learn what that means, love and limits, both and- Yeah
[00:23:10] at the same time. Yeah. Um, when the model is, you know, "I'm gonna celebrate you when you're doing the right thing, and then I'm gonna be mad at you and come down on you-" "... when you're doing the wrong thing," how do we get out of that swing?
[00:23:26] Dr. Scott Sells: It has to be through something called experimentation. Mm-hmm. Like, I have an example where the parent's like, "How in the world do you want me to be kind to my kid when he says F you to me every day- Yeah
[00:23:37] and storms out?" Like, I, and I'm like, "I get it, but do you want the disrespect to go down by using a stealth bomber technique?"
[00:23:45] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:23:45] Dr. Scott Sells: And they're like, "What do you mean?" Well, the disrespect is also attached to the relationship, and you guys are now in a vicious cycle.
[00:23:52] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:23:53] Dr. Scott Sells: So, but they gotta go first. And I say, "None of them are children anymore."
[00:23:56] They're the adult in the
[00:23:56] Casey O'Roarty: room.
[00:23:57] Dr. Scott Sells: Yeah. I know, but it's hard. So I say, "Okay. To prove my point, I've got a, a technique called the positive teen report." And we're gonna practice this 'cause we gotta do dress rehearsals because I'm gonna practice- Yes ... ripping it up. I'm gonna practice saying I want money for it.
[00:24:14] I'm gonna do everything that could basically derail this so you're battle ready. And you only gotta do it for 30 days. So you t- write out the certificate, you catch a- catch one thing they do right, and you're playful with it. You put it, you tape it to the dog while it's going by. You put it in the cereal box.
[00:24:33] And it will... You'll have to fake it till you make it.
[00:24:36] Casey O'Roarty: Yes.
[00:24:37] Dr. Scott Sells: And you'll have to do it for 30 days 'cause it takes an average of 30 days to change a habit. And you know what happens? And I said, "The kid'll get worse before they get better."
[00:24:46] Casey O'Roarty: Yes.
[00:24:46] Dr. Scott Sells: Because they'll be like, "No way. I, I don't trust this."
[00:24:50] Casey O'Roarty: This is a trap.
[00:24:50] Dr. Scott Sells: So the, the parent calls me up and says, "I'm at day 28. I can't do this anymore. My kid's being more disrespectful." And the kid comes in and sees me alone. He says, "What did you do with my mom?"
[00:25:02] Casey O'Roarty: Hmm. "
[00:25:03] Dr. Scott Sells: I'm feeling this weird feeling." And I go, "What is it?" "Guilt, remorse."
[00:25:09] Casey O'Roarty: Hmm. "
[00:25:09] Dr. Scott Sells: I think she loves me- Hmm ... and I can't deal with that right now."
[00:25:14] And then- Ah ... the breakthrough. Day 45, uh, he broke.
[00:25:20] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:25:20] Dr. Scott Sells: Uh, and the parent said, "If you didn't give me this as an experiment, I would've never believed it because I did the opposite. Parenting with limits-
[00:25:30] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm ...
[00:25:31] Dr. Scott Sells: and love." Oh, connection with correction.
[00:25:35] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:25:36] Dr. Scott Sells: And so- Yeah ... for parents who are so fried and burnt out, the only way you'll do it is if it's written down and you do dress rehearsals.
[00:25:45] Mm-hmm. Most mental health professionals never do dress rehearsals. What do you mean
[00:25:48] Casey O'Roarty: dress rehearsals? Do you mean, like, just keep at it, like dress rehearsals with the kiddo, or like a practice inside
[00:25:55] Dr. Scott Sells: the office? Yeah, just like, just like actors do before they go on stage.
[00:25:59] Casey O'Roarty: Okay.
[00:25:59] Dr. Scott Sells: They'll read the script, and this way it's a written plan of what the parents are gonna do.
[00:26:04] Mm-hmm. And then I play the protagonist, like I'm the kid. Got it.
[00:26:07] Casey O'Roarty: Got it. Got it. Yeah, yeah,
[00:26:08] Dr. Scott Sells: yeah, yeah. And I'll be like, "I'm gonna... Let's troubleshoot." Yeah. "What are you gonna do if you try to get the phone and your kid says, 'Over my dead body'? What are you gonna do? And then let's- Yeah ... role play that out."
[00:26:18] Casey O'Roarty: Yes.
[00:26:18] Dr. Scott Sells: And then when the parents feel confident, then the kid comes in, and we pretend that the kid does it right. Mm-hmm. And then there's praise '
[00:26:27] Casey O'Roarty: Cause
[00:26:28] Dr. Scott Sells: a parent practiced that and then we practice the kid blows the limits- Mm-hmm ... and the parents set the limit in love- Mm-hmm ... but the kid knows it's coming ahead of time 'cause it's all written down.
[00:26:39] Because kids have literal disease. They're like great lawyers. Yeah. If it's not written down, they find loopholes.
[00:26:48] Casey O'Roarty: Sure.
[00:26:48] Dr. Scott Sells: And when I, when I talk to parents, 99% do it off the cuff and it's all verbal, and kids eat them alive.
[00:26:58] Casey O'Roarty: Of course.
[00:26:58] Dr. Scott Sells: So the dress rehearsals are key.
[00:27:01] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:27:01] Dr. Scott Sells: And in my, in my practice in my early years, I would hand the person an idea like chores or whatever it is, but I wouldn't practice their delivery- Mm-hmm
[00:27:12] their voice tone.
[00:27:13] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:27:13] Dr. Scott Sells: And the kid would defeat them 'cause they were thinking five steps ahead of them.
[00:27:17] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:27:18] Dr. Scott Sells: And the parent was not battle ready. Yeah. So the intervention was good, but they didn't practice. And why do, why do actors do it? And why don't we have parents do it? So there's a chapter in my book called Troubleshooting and Dress Rehearsals.
[00:27:32] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. I love that. Yeah. Well, in the positive discipline worlds, when you're trained to lead classes, it's actually all experiential learning. Right. So it's all role-playing. And the other piece is not only, like, uh, getting the repetition for the parent in their body so that when they go in, it feels s- a little bit- Natural
[00:27:52] more natural.
[00:27:54] Dr. Scott Sells: Yeah.
[00:27:54] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm. But it also gives parents the opportunity to be in the teen's shoes-
[00:27:59] Dr. Scott Sells: Yes ...
[00:27:59] Casey O'Roarty: and experience the parent, and experience, you know ... Sometimes we'll create a contrasting role play. Yeah. So let's do it how you've been doing it. Right. Let's see how the parent role-playing the teen experiences you.
[00:28:12] Yeah. And then let's tweak it and see what the contrast is. And I think you're right. Like, it is so important for parents to have that practice, 'cause the wobbliness is not a sign that you're doing it wrong. It's that you're doing something new. Yeah. Yeah. I- Right? If you're trying to do something new, it's gonna- Yeah
[00:28:34] feel awkward, so don't throw it out because- That's what you also- ...
[00:28:38] Dr. Scott Sells: it feels awkward ... gotta say. You gotta say, "It's gonna get worse before it gets better." Yes. And they're like, "Why?" Because you're putting boundaries.
[00:28:44] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:28:45] Dr. Scott Sells: And, and you're gonna feel awkward and clumsy.
[00:28:49] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:28:49] Dr. Scott Sells: That's normal. Of course. And I'll even send parents to YouTube episodes of Supernanny.
[00:28:54] Oh, God. Because Supernanny did a great job with that. She would prep them in the k- in the kitchen, practice. Yeah. And then she would help them as a acting coach or director. Mm-hmm. And then they got confidence.
[00:29:08] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:29:08] Dr. Scott Sells: Well- Because parents who have been through the ringer lack confidence.
[00:29:11] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. And I love that you said, you used the word playful.
[00:29:16] Dr. Scott Sells: Yeah, playful.
[00:29:17] Casey O'Roarty: Um, I think that is a missing link when it comes to parenting during adolescence, whether things are going ... I mean, if things are easy-peasy, then it's, you know, playfulness might feel more natural, but there is something around this season of parenting that can feel so heavy.
[00:29:36] Dr. Scott Sells: Yeah.
[00:29:36] Casey O'Roarty: Add on extreme behavior, scary behavior, and playfulness.
[00:29:42] Like, are you- Yeah ... kidding me? Why would I be playful? I like to use the word lightness or buoyant. And listeners, you can't see me, but I'm, like, kinda squatting to the ground. Like, there's so much heaviness.
[00:29:55] Dr. Scott Sells: Yeah.
[00:29:56] Casey O'Roarty: And it makes sense. You know? We wanna launch these kids into the world and feel confident that they're gonna- Create a life that feels good to them, and be in joy and be in contribution.
[00:30:08] And so good, it better... It's, you know, we gotta just steamroll- Well, yeah, yeah, yeah ... through
[00:30:13] Dr. Scott Sells: this period. Such, such a good point you raise, because parents, the first thing to leave the building is playfulness and humor.
[00:30:20] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah, yeah.
[00:30:21] Dr. Scott Sells: When you have heavy, heavy behaviors like disrespect, lying, stealing, you forget that there's a young man or a young girl in there-
[00:30:32] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm
[00:30:32] Dr. Scott Sells: who's crying out for playfulness- Who's a baby
[00:30:35] Casey O'Roarty: still ...
[00:30:35] Dr. Scott Sells: a ba- a baby. Like Even though they act one way. Ah. And, and that's why I was like, "When was the last time you had game night?" Yeah. "When was the last time you ate together? When was the last time you just danced around the table?" Yeah. "This won't work." "Well, how do you know?
[00:30:52] You haven't tried." Yeah. "What have we got to lose?" Yeah. And kids will say to me, "You know, I'm so extreme," one kid said to me, "I'm like parched earth."
[00:31:02] Casey O'Roarty: Mm. "
[00:31:02] Dr. Scott Sells: When you put an eyedropper of water, it spreads out with me- Mm ... because I'm so extreme- Yeah ... that anything- Yeah ... that brought back humor and playfulness- Yeah
[00:31:13] and, and you help my parent be at least like I find out now, 30 days," I was just, like, starving for that.
[00:31:21] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:31:22] Dr. Scott Sells: Yeah. And, um, and that's the greatest joy I have is when parents do a 30-day experiment.
[00:31:28] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:31:28] Dr. Scott Sells: I get them battle ready, you know? Mm. They try it, to fake it till they make it.
[00:31:34] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:31:35] Dr. Scott Sells: And they put the nurturance back in, and the behaviors go way down.
[00:31:40] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. So- And you know, listeners, you might be a household where maybe things don't feel extreme, but things- Yeah ... feel annoying- Right ... 'cause you're living with teenagers who are in this developmental stage where they're pushing and pulling and experimenting and trying things on, and it's hard to hold. And I think it might not take...
[00:32:00] You know, I think this is useful for everyone. It might not- It is ... take 30 days- Right ... in every household, but what I'm hearing- Good point ... you say is, "Don't abandon the tool or the practice- Right ... because you don't get immediate, an immediate shift." Right, right. Exactly. Right? Yeah. Because if the relationship isn't there, things are gonna fall flat.
[00:32:21] And so it's- Right, right ... multiple layers of things. There's no one thing that's gonna turn the ship. It's multiple things that will help
[00:32:39] Dr. Scott Sells: Well, the other thing too is about the limits part. People say, "Okay, I love all this love stuff- Yeah ... but what if, you know, um, my kid's on the, on his phone or her phone for eight hours, what do I do?" We now have a tech-based childhood versus a play-based childhood. Yeah,
[00:32:55] Casey O'Roarty: yeah.
[00:32:55] Dr. Scott Sells: Um, and so it can get out of hand real quick.
[00:32:59] The difference is, as I say to parents, you gotta find their currency, and there has to be a paradigm shift or a realignment. Like, everything is a privilege, not a right.
[00:33:10] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:33:10] Dr. Scott Sells: And kids today think, "Everything's my right. I don't have to earn anything, so I can be disrespectful to you and you can still give me rides everywhere."
[00:33:19] Mm-hmm. "I can be disrespectful to you and I still can watch my Xbox as long as I want." There is no consequences, and that's the wrong message to say as well. So I say, first of all, you gotta have it written out, and you just be very simple and say, "This is now the problem's on your shoulders- Mm-hmm ... and now the ball's in your court."
[00:33:39] Now that it's written down and you know exactly what disrespect is defined, and you helped define it- Then you can choose each day to not be disrespectful, and I now will follow the plan and praise you at night with high fives, and you'll get to keep your privilege-
[00:33:59] Casey O'Roarty: Mm ...
[00:33:59] Dr. Scott Sells: of your phone. Or you choose to be disrespectful, and I even give you one warning a day, and you lose your phone.
[00:34:09] Mm. It's, that's it, and it's all in writing. So now there's no like, "What did you say? You know what I meant?" Not, all that's gone.
[00:34:18] Casey O'Roarty: Mm.
[00:34:18] Dr. Scott Sells: The problem is now on your shoulders. Yeah. And kids even say, "Well, that makes sense," you know? Yeah. Um, and then of course we troubleshoot what will you do if that doesn't work.
[00:34:29] But having it in writing, having the kid have some input, and connecting priv- everything is a privilege, not a right. Yeah. 'Cause parents will say to me, "Well, I can't take that away. They have no rewards." I said, "Yeah, they do. You, you have privileges around taking them places-
[00:34:48] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm ...
[00:34:48] Dr. Scott Sells: their electronics."
[00:34:49] Whatever it is, it now becomes a privilege, not a right, and that is a huge paradigm shift.
[00:34:54] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. Yeah. Well, and with this, something that I have taken from positive discipline that I really appreciate is with privilege comes responsibility.
[00:35:03] Dr. Scott Sells: Right.
[00:35:03] Casey O'Roarty: And when they have privilege without responsibility, it results in entitlement, which you've already brought up.
[00:35:09] Dr. Scott Sells: Yeah,
[00:35:10] Casey O'Roarty: it is. Yeah, yeah. And with the screens, like, one of the things that we work, that I work hard to do with parents around consequences and agreements is really connecting the consequence to the challenge. So, like with screens, responsibility looks like you're willing to talk, you're willing to follow limits.
[00:35:30] You're willing to talk about limits. You're not misusing, through bullying or whatever- Right ... the screen. So it's all connected to the screen, and this is a big one because there is this phenomenon that happens where even some, in some families, even if a parent wants to bring up, "Hey, let's talk about how much you're using your phone," they, the activation in the teen, there's, it's like a caged animal.
[00:35:56] And so, you know, when I talk to parents about screens, it's really bringing it back to, "Hey, this is a privilege- And with this privilege comes responsibility. Like, we gotta have conversations around limits, and I really appreciate that you mentioned with this, the child's input because- Yeah ... like, that's the whole practice when we talk about making agreements.
[00:36:20] It is, we're looking for a win-win, which means I'm gonna give a little, you're gonna give a little. Right. Exactly. And I recognize, I recognize that, you know, in a typical developing kiddo, you know, this is all well and good. It still feels wobbly, it still might feel a little wonky- Mm ... and it's still kind of annoying for the parents to have to follow through, but hey, you gotta follow through.
[00:36:41] They're teenagers. It's not a character flaw that they're not following the agreement to a T. It is called- Yeah ... teen brain development, okay? And so- ... stop being so pissed off about that and just follow through and do what you say you're gonna do. But also, with that, and I recognize in extreme behaviors, you know, it can look like an extreme response.
[00:37:05] So I would-
[00:37:07] Dr. Scott Sells: Well, and that, and that's where we do with tech to make it less extreme. A lot of parents didn't grow up, uh, with as technological advancements as the kids do today. Yeah,
[00:37:16] Casey O'Roarty: we're all Gen
[00:37:17] Dr. Scott Sells: X. So I say, yeah, j- so you gotta fight tech with tech. And I say, instead of saying, "Give me your phone," work it out with the kid ahead of time.
[00:37:25] Just say, "I'm using something called parental controls on my phone."
[00:37:29] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. "
[00:37:30] Dr. Scott Sells: I contacted the local tech person to help me understand this."
[00:37:33] Casey O'Roarty: Absolutely.
[00:37:34] Dr. Scott Sells: And the drama's out of here.
[00:37:37] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. Absolutely.
[00:37:37] Dr. Scott Sells: The phone will just shut, or your Xbox will just shut off after three hours.
[00:37:42] Casey O'Roarty: Yes. Yeah.
[00:37:42] Dr. Scott Sells: But the other thing is, is I'm gonna monitor through things like Bark and make sure you're safe.
[00:37:47] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:37:48] Dr. Scott Sells: And, but I'm gonna replace it with something- Better. And they're like, "What do you mean?" Well, part of the phone use will be connected to something called nature deficit disorder. Mm-hmm. And they're like, "What do you mean?" What happens is we've stopped going outside.
[00:38:04] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:38:04] Dr. Scott Sells: And me too, I'm on the phone all the time.
[00:38:07] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:38:08] Dr. Scott Sells: So we're gonna replace the root of it, and we're gonna clear the palate of the mind, and we're gonna enjoy each other. We're gonna go on hikes, or we're gonna do bikes, or... "I'm not doing that." I said, "Well, that's fine, but you need to to help mitigate the- the tech."
[00:38:25] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm. "
[00:38:25] Dr. Scott Sells: And do you wanna use the tech?"
[00:38:27] "Yes." "Then we'll go on a walk."
[00:38:29] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. You
[00:38:29] Dr. Scott Sells: know? So- Yes ...
[00:38:30] Casey O'Roarty: you can- I like that that's connected-
[00:38:32] Dr. Scott Sells: Yeah,
[00:38:32] Casey O'Roarty: right ... to its- It's just like- Yeah, there's a connection there ...
[00:38:34] Dr. Scott Sells: you gotta have a handle of it. Yeah. Yeah. It's just like, um, "But we won't have a good time." Well, maybe we won't, but the key'll be the big C word. Well, what's that?
[00:38:42] Consistency.
[00:38:43] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:38:44] Dr. Scott Sells: I'm not gonna just do a one and done.
[00:38:47] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:38:47] Dr. Scott Sells: I'm gonna do this, and then I'm also gonna try to cut my tech back.
[00:38:51] Casey O'Roarty: Yes.
[00:38:52] Dr. Scott Sells: Um- That's huge ... you know? And so, and we're also gonna try a game night. Um-
[00:38:57] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah,
[00:38:57] Dr. Scott Sells: connection ... and we'll try a few dinners. Again, the connection.
[00:39:00] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:39:01] Dr. Scott Sells: And then, uh, I did a soup kitchen with my kid the other day.
[00:39:05] Casey O'Roarty: Mm.
[00:39:05] Dr. Scott Sells: And he's like, "I didn't wanna be on my phone as much."
[00:39:07] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:39:08] Dr. Scott Sells: And I didn't say, "Aha."
[00:39:09] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:39:10] Dr. Scott Sells: You know? Good. Good job. But I knew that him helping somebody else-
[00:39:14] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah ...
[00:39:14] Dr. Scott Sells: made the tech less needed.
[00:39:16] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:39:16] Dr. Scott Sells: So- so that's- Yeah ... kind of, it's- it's a soft love and limits approach.
[00:39:21] Casey O'Roarty: Well, and I think- Yeah ... too, like, listeners, I hope you're hearing, you know, replace the word tech with driving them around, replace the word tech- Yeah.
[00:39:30] with other things as well- Good ... because it's kind of the same process. Yeah. What we're going for here is not only doing our part and creating opportunities for connection, but also kind of highlighting our humanness. Right. Right? This is something that I want more of in my life too, so I'm working on this as well.
[00:39:50] Now, Dr. Sells, there's also those, you know, we've been talking about the extreme kids, those kids in real pain, depression, and grief, that they've never touched, they're cutting or hurting themselves. You know, how does a parent know when it's time to bring in a professional?
[00:40:09] Dr. Scott Sells: Well, in my appendix of the book, I say choosing the right counselor, where I go through really, um, a cheat sheet of how to ask a counselor the right questions for the right problem.
[00:40:23] Mm-hmm. I spent a lot of extra time on that 'cause I never saw- Thank you ... a parenting book ever do that. So when you try some of the interventions in the book or if you really can't get on the same page with your co-parent, like you have different parenting philosophies, or you suffer what's called a difficult divorce where you just don't really like the other person and you can't even stand to be in the same room with them because the marriage is over or the relationship is over, but co-parenting is not.
[00:40:55] I say throughout the book that when you try some of these interventions and they're just falling flat, then it's time to call in an expert, um, like a contractor-
[00:41:07] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm ...
[00:41:07] Dr. Scott Sells: to help, um, you know, mediate and help work through things that you might just be missing. And when there's safety issues like extreme depression or suicide, I say even if you're gonna use this book somewhat as do it yourself, you wanna bring this book into your sessions 'cause you can't do these safety issues Without a counselor
[00:41:33] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm '
[00:41:33] Dr. Scott Sells: Cause there's just too much that could go wrong.
[00:41:36] Mm-hmm. So I list all the safety problems in advance.
[00:41:40] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:41:41] Dr. Scott Sells: Like you just said, depression, but there's also self-harm. Yeah. There's also threats of suicide. There's also running away and staying out all night.
[00:41:49] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:41:49] Dr. Scott Sells: There's also aggression, putting your fists through the wall, or actually hurting a parent.
[00:41:55] These are safety that could cause harm to self or others, and that's when it's time to work with a therapist and the principles in this book. Both and, not either or.
[00:42:05] Casey O'Roarty: Yes. So-
[00:42:06] Dr. Scott Sells: Yes ... I hope that helps some of the listeners to kind of zero in on that.
[00:42:10] Casey O'Roarty: I am listening to you, and I'm in the appendix right now, and listeners, if for no other reason-
[00:42:17] buy this book for the appendix. Because you're right, you broke down-
[00:42:23] Dr. Scott Sells: Yeah ...
[00:42:24] Casey O'Roarty: t- at such a granular level- I did ... how to find the right fit. Yeah. And it's such an- a gift for parents- Yeah ... who feel so overwhelmed by- Yeah ... what's happening and where to start. Yep. Yeah. So, um- You're the only person- I really appreciate that
[00:42:41] that's asked me
[00:42:41] Dr. Scott Sells: about that, so I'm glad I got to talk about appendix
[00:42:44] Casey O'Roarty: A. Yes. Yes, yes, yes, yes. It's so important. Okay, so, I mean, I've got all these other questions that we didn't even get to, um, but I know that- Maybe you can
[00:42:53] Dr. Scott Sells: have me back again
[00:42:54] Casey O'Roarty: someday. Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. But what I always ask my guests before I let them go, and before I ask them to talk about where to find you and your work, my question to you is what does joyful courage mean to you in the context of the families that you serve and the book that you wrote?
[00:43:15] Dr. Scott Sells: Yeah. Courage is not giving up. Sometimes the definition of a parent with, uh, kids with extreme problems is getting up the next day.
[00:43:25] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:43:26] Dr. Scott Sells: And, and not, the courage to not give up, and I hope that these tools will- Give courage. You know, like- Mm-hmm ... you've got something that you don't have to keep doing the same thing over and over again.
[00:43:39] Yeah. And the joy comes with it when you realize that there's drivers underneath the surface that come with the absence of joy and laughter-
[00:43:51] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm ...
[00:43:51] Dr. Scott Sells: and caring, that it's taken its toll fight after fight after fight. But there's a way out.
[00:43:59] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:44:00] Dr. Scott Sells: You just have to do something different, because w- the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
[00:44:08] So I hope this book will give people a way to think differently and parent differently.
[00:44:15] Casey O'Roarty: Beautiful.
[00:44:15] Dr. Scott Sells: And that's why I put together extremeteen.com.
[00:44:18] Casey O'Roarty: Yes, talk about that.
[00:44:19] Dr. Scott Sells: Because one, once a month, I do a free webinar on a special topic. This month is on tech wars, at the end of September, and then I also give parents the opportunity to do coaching with me- Beautiful
[00:44:33] um, if they need the extra help. So it's an ecosystem- Mm-hmm ... where people find support, and they don't have to feel alone or have shame, because they're like, "Wow, I have this problem, too." And to put it in context, kids with extreme problems, it's up to seven million kids right now according to the Centers of Disease Control, or the CDC.
[00:44:57] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm.
[00:44:57] Dr. Scott Sells: That's a lot of kids.
[00:44:59] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:44:59] Dr. Scott Sells: So, um, you either are listening and you're one, or you know three other parents. Mm-hmm. So the best place is come to extremeteen.com or order the book, and I think you'll leave with the tools that you, that could help unstick and give you joyful courage.
[00:45:19] Casey O'Roarty: So yeah. Mm. I love that.
[00:45:20] Thank you. Thank you so much for spending time with me today. This was a great conversation- Good ... and I will definitely be reaching out to have you back on.
[00:45:27] Dr. Scott Sells: Okay.
[00:45:28] Casey O'Roarty: For sure. Thank you so
[00:45:28] Dr. Scott Sells: much.
[00:45:29] Casey O'Roarty: Take care. Okay, have a good day.
[00:45:35] Thank you so much for listening. Thank you to my Sproutable partners, Julietta and Alana. Thank you, Danielle, for supporting with the show notes, as well as Chris Mann and the team at Podshaper for all the support with getting the show out there and making it sound good. As I mentioned, sharing is caring.
[00:45:52] If you're willing to pass on this episode to others or take a few minutes to rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, it helps other parents find this useful content. Be sure to check out what we have going on for parents of kids of all ages, and sign up for our newsletter to stay connected at besproutable.com.
[00:46:12] I see you doing all the things. I believe in you. See you next time.