Eps 401: When therapy isn’t working for your child with Dianne Kosto

Episode 401

My guest today is Dianne Kosto.  

Dianne starts off by introducing herself and explaining what neurofeedback is, who it’s for, and what benefits people see.  We dig into when talk therapy isn’t working for your kid, finding the right fit, and the benefits of measurable results.  I ask Dianne how personality, temperament, environment, and buy-in play roles in neurofeedback, and we wrap up with some of Dianne’s biggest success stories.  

Guest Description

Dianne is a mom on a mission and the founder and CEO of SYMMETRY Neuro-Pathway Training.  Dianne’s on a mission to make neurofeedback technology available to families and individuals.  She tried for years to find an environment where her son could thrive.  It wasn’t until neurofeedback found her that things began to change.  She wants to help other families avoid the trauma that her family experienced as a result of her son’s brain dysregulation.  For the past 13 years, Dianne has dedicated her life to teaching others about neurofeedback.   

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Takeaways from the show

  • What is neurofeedback? 
  • Benefits of neurofeedback 
  • Who’s neurofeedback for? 
  • When therapy isn’t working for your child or adolescent 
  • The value of measurable results

What does joyful courage mean to you

When I hear that term, I just think about my journey, continuing to push forward, not giving up, and trying to find an answer for my son.  Every time I believed and I had the courage to do the next thing, just knowing that it was going to work.  As stressful as it was for me, taking that next step, getting out there and doing something and trying the next thing was joyful courage.



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neurofeedback, brain, people, sessions, pattern, regulate, kids, military academy, dysregulation, years, son, technology, hear, parents, talk, environment, families, started, programme, brainwave activity
Casey O'Roarty, Dianne Kosto

Casey O'Roarty 00:04
Hey, welcome to the joyful courage podcast a place for inspiration and transformation as we try and keep it together, while parenting our tweens and teens. This is real work people and when we can focus on our own growth, and nurturing the connection with our kids, we can move through the turbulence in a way that allows for relationships to remain intact. My name is Casey already I am your fearless host. I'm a positive discipline trainer, space holder coach and the adolescent lead at Sprout double. I am also the mama to a 20 year old daughter and 17 year old son walking right beside you on this path of raising our kids with positive discipline and conscious parenting. This show is meant to be a resource to you and I work really hard to keep it real, transparent and authentic so that you feel seen and supported. Today is an interview and I have no doubt that what you hear will be useful to you. Please don't forget sharing truly is caring. If you love today's show, please pass the link around snap a screenshot posted on your socials or texted to your friends. Together we can make an even bigger impact on families all around the globe. I'm so glad that you're here. Enjoy the show.

Casey O'Roarty 01:25
Right Hey listeners, welcome back to the podcast. My guest today is Dianne Kosto. Dianne is a mom on a mission and the founder and CEO of symmetry neuro pathway training. Dan's on a mission to make Neurofeedback technology available to families and individuals she tried for years to find an environment where her son could thrive. It wasn't until Neurofeedback found her that things begin to change. She wants to help other families avoid the trauma that her family experienced as a result of her son's brain dysregulation. For the past 13 years, Diane has dedicated her life to teaching others about neurofeedback, I'm so excited to learn more about what neurofeedback is and how it can be useful for all of us regular people out here looking for any way possible to support ourselves and our families. Hi, Diane, welcome to the podcast.

Dianne Kosto 02:24
Hey, Casey. I'm excited to be here. Thank you for having me.

Casey O'Roarty 02:27
Yes. Thank you for being here. I'm so interested in your work I was telling you before you came on, like really, really interested? Can you start by sharing your story about your son and how Neurofeedback found you?

Dianne Kosto 02:42
Yeah, sure, it's a long story. I'll try to condense it. But basically, my son was impulsive, off the charts from, you know, birth pretty much. But it started to become a problem when he entered school, right, because it didn't fit into that school environment. So from the age of five, until he was about 12, going on 13 He was kicked out of multiple different schools and programmes and I kept trying to find a different environment for him. So I tried private school, home school, boarding school, home school, again, Military Academy, every different environment, I could think of going deeper and deeper into debt looking for that and life that he would do well. And once he went to the military academy, there was so much violence in the house, you know, holes in the walls fighting because I had two boys. And it got pretty volatile. The older one was the button pusher, the young woman had no impulse control. And he was pretty defiant and everything. So when he went to the military academy, I was like, you've really got to make this work for you. But or you're not welcome home. That's how extreme it got. I mean, I just have to pause you for a minute because like Military Academy, right, like that's the last like, do I need to send you to military academy? I mean, I'm just really relating to the desperation of finding what fits finding what's helpful for your son. So yeah, and in the midst of you know, all of those years, it's like read this book, The Dobson book, try this point chart, try this be you know, I was a single parent too. So you know, I didn't want to be judged as being too lenient, and letting them walk all over you like you tend to get judged for being. So I bumped heads with them, which in hindsight, was probably the worst thing I could do. But I was tough. You know, I was like, these are the rules. And as much as I could be strict I was, but I tried all of these different approaches. So yeah, the military academy ends up going there, and I thought it'd be great environment for him hit like it very physical, and he got in trouble and I got the call, you know, you need to come and get him. And I said, No. And they were like, you know, I was out of options. And I did one of the hardest things I ever did in my life. And I had them transported to one of those quote unquote, schools for troubled teens. You know, it's 12 going on 13 And there he was, and all of those years before that, I was too

Dianne Kosto 05:00
I need to avoid that. But here we were, I didn't know what else to do. Yeah. And so he gets into this therapeutic programme and I'm like, well, at least they know how to deal with them. I kind of saw it coming, but now they know how to handle him because I've been failing, right? And a few months into it, guess what? I get that phone call again. Love him, but he's not following the programme. What are we going to do? And I was like, literally pulling my hair out. I didn't know what was gonna happen. And right at that time, I was introduced to the founder of a Neurofeedback company, somebody had them on a local TV show and did an interview and talked about neurofeedback. And this was 13 years ago. And so, I was introduced to him and he said, that's the kind of kid we can help. So I went through that training, he entrusted me with a $22,000 Neurofeedback system and I drove from South Carolina to nowhere Utah and set it up in that programme. And it saved my son's life. Were the sessions of Neurofeedback gave him this pause before reacting that he never had since birth. And I was real old and mad that nobody mentioned it to me those years before that, but that's what launched me on my mission. It wasn't only my son in that programme that I helped either I watched many other kids and some of the staff that start to show improvements by going through these Neurofeedback sessions. That's what sent me on the mission. I was like, We need to get this out there more people need to know about it. Again, I appreciate you having me on here to spread the word and share it with the population.

Casey O'Roarty 06:32
Yeah, well, you know, there's so many kids in crisis and kids in need. And I work with families, you know, who have kids that are in different places on the spectrum of willingness to go see a therapist. And I think the teenage years are so hard to expose your true self to somebody. And the idea that just sending them to the therapist and our kids are going to open up and really do the work is a big ask for teenagers. It's a big ask for a lot of people. I mean, I have to remind myself of that because I'm someone who I mean, I'm like Forrest Gump on the park bench. Like do you want to hear my story because I will share but not everybody's like that. And so so we've heard a little bit about neurofeedback here and there, but I never have really felt like I understand what exactly it is. So can you help us with that? What is neurofeedback?

Dianne Kosto 07:27
Sure, there are different approaches to Neurofeedback out there. But the bottom line is, it's technology driven learning for the brain. That's the simplest way to put it. So we use technology to measure the communication in the brain called brainwaves and brainwave activity, we can pick that up, measure it, and take a look at what patterns are healthy patterns in which patterns are off. And then using that information, you go through a series of what we call sessions where you're using that technology, again, measuring the brainwave activity, and giving the person feedback and giving their brain feedback on what it's doing through a screen of visual or auditory. So they might be kicked back watching Netflix, YouTube, Hulu, something online, our software puts an overlay over top of that, and it'll play brighter or louder when their brains meeting that healthy pattern that we want to encourage. And then it goes dimmer or quieter when the brain is not producing the pattern that you want to encourage. So it's constantly rewarding the brain to produce that healthier pattern. And then it's just like when you learn to ride a bike or write with a pencil you practice, practice, practice, and pretty soon you're just doing it without thinking about it. So the goal is to use this technology repeatedly to teach the brain those healthy patterns and create new pathways in the brain.

Casey O'Roarty 08:41
So give me an example because I do not understand. And maybe that's okay, maybe the science is beyond me at this moment. But give us a storyline like somebody comes in and the unhealthy pattern is what

Dianne Kosto 08:58
so I'll back up a little bit when they come in, they're gonna fill out some assessments, let us know what's happening with them. Okay, there's some things and things like that, we're going to actually put a cap on their head and measure their brainwave activity with their eyes closed and in their eyes open. And that's just the technology sensors in that cap are going to record those tiny signals that the brain makes when it's communicating. It's always producing a bunch of different brain waves frequency, right? We record that we know what a healthy brain should be doing. So we can compare it to this database and analyse it and get a report that says, hey, these areas are off. No wonder you're struggling with impulsivity. Or you have this pattern that goes hand in hand with people that have anxiety. Okay, so we're looking at those in the beginning and analysing it and having a report that shows us what's physically happening in the brain. Right. And that was one of the key components where you were just talking about people that can't even verbally express and kiddos like my son, there was a physical pattern in his brain. We could talk to him all day long. But until we were able to correct that physical A neural pathway in his brain. There, he still was, yeah, nothing changed. When you have that information from the cue EEG brain mapping report, then the session looks like a couple sensors on the scalp again, measuring the brainwave activity. When the software detects that it's producing that pattern, we want to encourage it might just be a little more faster wave activity over here on the left side and slower waves over here on the right, just trying to simplify it and do please thank you, whenever the software would detect that that happens. The screenplays a little brighter,

Casey O'Roarty 10:35
and that sparks a different brain pattern.

Dianne Kosto 10:40
So what happens is the brains like, I want to see this better, just like when your eyes in the morning when you wake up your eyes focus, because you want to see better if you're listening or watching a movie, you want to be able to see it and hear it in a better resolution. It's the natural process of what your brain, your eyes, your ears, that's what it does. So that's all it needs is to be able to see it a little bit better to encourage that positive pattern. And then when it goes dimmer and quieter, the brain knows, it doesn't like that as much. So wants to produce that pattern to see it better. They did this with cats back in the 60s, where they were able to just record the top of the head when the cat produced a half second burst of a certain brainwave, they gave the cats a little bit of milk and broth. And then cats would produce a little more of that right in that centre spot of their head, they get a little more milk and brought those cats started producing more and more and more of that brainwave activity, just by giving them that little reward. So with humans, it's seeing something better hearing it better, that that's the reward. That's our milk and broth when we're watching a movie, right?

Casey O'Roarty 11:49
What does that say about us? I'm not really sure.

Dianne Kosto 11:53
But it works amazing. It works.

Dianne Kosto 12:01
It seems complicated, but it's not at the natural learning process that we go through all of the time. Anytime we learn something new, we're doing that same thing. We're practising practising until we have a pathway established in the brain a communication pathway called, you know, neuropathy. And we're just establishing that, that just happens all the time when we learn.

Casey O'Roarty 12:22
Wow. So talk about the benefits of neurofeedback. So, I mean, new patterns, but what are you seeing with the kids and the families that are coming through your organisation and doing this

Dianne Kosto 12:35
work? Yeah, we've seen such a wide span of things because the whole goal of neurofeedback is to help the brain better regulate. And what happens when the brain is not regulated? Well, people have trouble sleeping, they might not be able to focus. Well, they have maybe even migraines, tension headaches, there's like a lot of things anxiety, depression, impulsivity, like my kiddo. So there's a lot of things that we're normally in our society kind of masking, or managing with medications. Whereas underneath that, a lot of times it has to do with the physical pattern in the brain that's causing it. So we see people improve in all of those areas, restoring the sleep cycle is one of the first things we'd like to watch for. Because when people aren't getting into that deep, well regulated sleep, they don't function well during the day, they can't focus their cognitive processing is offline, you know? So,

Casey O'Roarty 13:30
yeah, and I'm thinking about our kids, but I'm also thinking about parents, we all have the things that trigger us, right? The things that kind of Dan Siegel calls it flipping our lives, the things that just regulate us real quick. And usually it comes from conditioning. You know, how are we raised? It's our defence mechanism. But it can feel like yeah, I just flip out really quick. Is Neurofeedback something that can support in helping create that pause, even for parents who are finding that it's really challenging to stay regulated with their kiddos?

Dianne Kosto 14:04
Yes, I believe so. And I've seen it. Yeah, you know, again, it's just about better regulating the brain. When we have a better regulated brain, we can pause before reacting, we can see things from different angles that sometimes we weren't able to before. And I always like to remind people and encourage them to consider that in their relationships. And in the situations when something's triggering them, that it could be a physical pattern in that person's brain that's causing them to do that thing that makes you flip as well. And if we all understood that, and we all had the information of what's happening in our brain, we could really interact a lot differently than we do. Had I known what I know now, I would have handled my son a lot differently as I was raising him because what I was doing by bucking heads with him wasn't working at all and it didn't even matter in a way you know, yes, I stood my ground but what do you think you would have done differently? I would have understood that it was a physical reason that he was so reactive. So we would have had to find a different way of understanding and responding to that instead of me flipping out. Yeah, you know, like he was doing this stuff and just being this 110% boy with a bad attitude, I would have understood that he didn't have some control over some of that. But you still have to figure out how does that work within the environments that we have, it doesn't work to just allow him to punch holes in the law, it doesn't work for him to get up and just leave the building when you're in first grade, you know, out of the classroom. That's why it was grateful that I found it now, because he would be one of those people that's just locked up or accidentally had killed himself. You know, that's the kind of person that he was because of that. But once we were able to better regulate that he's one of the most disciplined people I know now.

Casey O'Roarty 15:53
Yeah. What does he like? 26? Uh, huh. Yeah, really developed brain ish, right, right, in the zone of the fully developed brain?

Dianne Kosto 16:01
Yes. And I'm gonna share this because this is the most amazing thing. He had his first and only graduation last summer, last August, and he's in Special Forces in the army. He's a Greenbrae. Wow. Yeah, he went from one of those people. Like I said, that really, we find them in our prison systems and or gone to one of the most disciplined people. Because then once we corrected that physical pattern in his brain, he was able to apply all of these things that he learned and all these different environments along the way, I believe, yeah, for he never would have been able to. Well,

Casey O'Roarty 16:37
there's a couple of things that you've shared. The first is what happens for us parents, when we recognise that our kids don't have a bad attitude, our kids aren't trying to drive us crazy, but that there is something going on for them. That is driving the behaviour, that behaviour actually makes sense. And behaviour has a purpose, right? It's space for us to generate compassion for ourselves and for our child. And so many more options become open as far as our response to them when we hold them in that light. So I really appreciate that. And I also really appreciate, you know, anytime there's a story, and I have my own story that my listeners have heard me speak of at nauseam. But anytime there's a story when you're a parent who's been through the gauntlet, with one of your kids, and you're on the other side of it, and you can generously share, you know about the experience, but not only about the experience, but about, you know, where are your kids at now? I feel so grateful as well. And my story to be able to say, yeah, it was scary. And I didn't know where she was going to end up. I didn't know if she was ever going to leave the house. I didn't know. And she's thriving,

Dianne Kosto 17:59
made it through. And she's thriving. That is good to hear.

Casey O'Roarty 18:02
Yeah, yeah, I think it's so important. People need that hope. Yeah. So the information and the data is collected. Part of the therapy is to sit with some kind of technology that's rewarding the brain and paying attention to the patterns. Is there more to the work for the person that's engaged in the neurofeedback? Is it a passive experience? It's

Dianne Kosto 18:30
very passive, okay? It's very passive. It's totally between the technology and the brain. Yeah. So, you know, sometimes it's nice, it's really great if somebody has bought in and believes in it. But if they're sitting there trying too hard, it's not going to work as well. They need to kick back and relax, and let their brain do the work because the brain is signalling so much quicker than we can consciously. And it's doing the work and creating that new pattern. It's so specific now that like, you can't tell someone Okay, would you increase 13 to 15 hertz frequency over here where we put this little sensor and then maybe reduce 15 to 20 hertz frequency over that there's no way so we can feel it when it's happening. And it's strictly a measurement and a reward. You know, it's very passive. The version that I use, there are different styles of Neurofeedback out there where somebody may be more engaged, it may be more clinical, they may be using low level current and different things. But the version that we use is technology driven learning, and that's it.

Casey O'Roarty 19:34
There's no like, therapists at the end of the session saying like, so tell me how you feel?

Dianne Kosto 19:38
Nope, none of that if you want to engage in that it only enhances that therapeutic process because you're able to process things in a different way and maybe identify things in a different way and sometimes verbalise differently, whereas you didn't have that capability before because that pattern wasn't quite as well regulated, so that it definite really enhances other therapeutic approaches, you know, we don't want it to just replace that, because that has a purpose in it, that my son was therapy it out to, you know, in multiple places in stock. So that kind of stuff, clients that therapists have really helped them get to the next level.

Casey O'Roarty 20:18
I mean, I'm just thinking about teenagers who just are so resistant to the idea of therapy. And, you know, I'm thinking about when my daughter initially, so she struggled with anxiety and depression, really extreme anxiety and depression, and was able to fake it for a 50 minute session. I remember at one point, she had a therapist, she came home and said, Oh, you know, my therapists that I could go to every other week, and I was like, hold up. Your scary, underweight, you've completely dropped out of high school, you do not leave the house, you're smoking tonnes of pot, like, how are you now graduating to every other week? What is going on? And I went to the next session with her and it turned out, you know, it's not like she's exposing what's dark and deep and scary and hard for her to this therapist. The therapist was like, she seems to be doing great.

Dianne Kosto 21:16
Yeah, they know how to play the game.

Casey O'Roarty 21:18
Yeah. And I'm like, by the way, you say on your website, that you're here for the adolescents, like, you need to know better. Right? You're being so do. Oh, my. So anyway,

Dianne Kosto 21:30
I had the same thing happen with my kids, when they were even younger, the therapist said, hey, if they're going to talk, they're going to talk to you more. I think we're done here. Like, okay, yeah. Okay, great. And the kids, that's their own reality at that moment, too. But the teenagers, you're right, they know how to play the game, same thing, and all the different programmes that I sent him to it was amazing how this kids can play that game. Yeah.

Casey O'Roarty 21:50
And it's not a character flaw, right? It's survival, and where they're at. And I just love the idea that there's another modality. Although I wonder, tell me about that. So and you can talk from your experience with your son. So something that I have seen as a benefit through my daughter's experience, post that therapist, we went through a whole big DBT programme, and just she's had an amazing, she finally found the right fit, and the social emotional growth that she went through, because of the struggle that she had there for, you know, three, four years. It was worth it. You know, to me, the level of learning and growth she has done as a human. I mean, I wasn't there until I was like in my mid 30s, and two kids in but she's already stepped into this really beautiful personal growth and awareness of her humaneness. And so I wonder I'm so I'm sitting here thinking like, well, had Neurofeedback been a thing for us, would she still have developed the skills and the tools and the awareness that she has now, going through a process that perhaps is more passive? What do you think?

Dianne Kosto 23:10
That's a really great question, and we don't know for sure about, but what I have seen when I watch people go through this process is they do start to mature in a different way, like I mentioned before, like they might see things from different angles, that it was a blind spot before, or understand why somebody is handling something the way that they have because they are better regulated, and the brain is amazing. When it's dysregulated. It's not picking up on things as well as it could be when it is regulated. So inside and out. I've seen that maturity happening with neurofeedback alone as well. Now, I don't know, I mean, I don't know everything that your daughter went through, and it's great that she did develop that way, it had to contribute it as well

Casey O'Roarty 23:56
took a long time, maybe it would have been a little quicker with neurofeedback.

Dianne Kosto 24:00
Well, that's what I've seen, because the brain starts to regulate, you can apply those things, you see it from a different angle, you start to get it in a different way. You know, I think the combination is beautiful and great and can only enhance it. But I also see the value and like what you said what she went through is made her who she is. And the same with my son, all of the things that he went through, as put him in a place that's pretty unique.

Casey O'Roarty 24:27
Yeah. So I'm so full of questions. And it's interesting, too, right? Like that conversation of growth and development and regulation. I mean, I think every problem in the world really can go back to dysregulation I know exactly right and not being able to be present in the moment and taking things personally and power struggles all of that goes back to dysregulation so how do you measure I know that you can measure by looking at the actual brain, but is there all So a process because you work with young kids to like, right? Younger the youngest kids that do neuro for five

Dianne Kosto 25:07
are kind of the youngest range I've had younger than that. But generally four or five years old and up to, you know, in 80s.

Casey O'Roarty 25:15
Yeah. And so like the really young kids, their parents, bring them in share anecdotally about what's going on, probably, I'm guessing. You do the process. However many times it typically I think you said with your son, it was 40. Session

Dianne Kosto 25:31
40. Yeah, be like people generally have about 40 sessions minimum. And as we know, after 20, the science shows it's really creating that permanent change. But most people need a little more to make it stick in a lasting change.

Casey O'Roarty 25:44
Yeah. And so then, are you getting feedback from the parents of what they're seeing at home? Yes, absolutely.

Dianne Kosto 25:50
All along the way. And the beginning, along with the mapping, if we can do a mapping, and progress all along the way we're tracking. So not only will we measure the brainwave activity, again, with another map, or through the each session, we're watching that, but then we're getting the feedback from the other people in their environment.

Casey O'Roarty 26:09
Is it like a survey that they take every time they come in? Or is it a process for collecting that information? Yeah, it's pretty simple.

Dianne Kosto 26:16
We have it all built in online, where we're either going to ask the questions if they're coming in or in the office, but a lot of our people are now I've closed most of my offices, and we do remote services. So people were doing Neurofeedback in the comfort of their own home and our coaches are in touch with them. And the software when they go to open it, ask them how they're doing, click a button on a scale of one to 10, you know, of how you're doing today. And now I'll do your session. And we can monitor that from a distance, you know, yeah, one of the things I wanted to mention on the avenue that we were just talking about is having something measurable, what's happening in the brain kind of takes that shame and stigma out and that unknown. And because I haven't seen a perfect brain yet. So if we could use this technology and the families and we know we all have dysregulation one place or another and just to better understand each other within the family unit. I think there's so much power in that. And I've watched people almost come to tears when they finally see Oh, no wonder I struggle with anxiety or depression or no wonder I've been irritable, but you know, for decades, and they can see it in a measurable form now, and that gives them so much hope. That part of the process I think alone is so valuable. Yeah.

Casey O'Roarty 27:38
Does Neurofeedback work for depression? I heard you say depression is that yeah,

Dianne Kosto 27:43
yeah, depression anxiety, we see clear patterns in the brain when people struggle in that area. That's fascinating. And picture it right now in my head, what maps looked like. And yes, in levels of anxiety that we've seen in the brain map reports over the years, even prior to COVID has continued to go up and up and up, even people that will come with attention and focus issues or memory issues. And we take a look at the patterns in their brain map. And we're seeing that they've got a lot of underlying anxiety, whether they realise it or not. And you can't focus in function well and regulate your mood if you're in fight or flight all of the time. And that anxious mode.

Casey O'Roarty 28:21
So how does personality, temperament and environment that we live in, you know, thinking about people living in trauma, right? And they come and they do I mean, maybe this happens, maybe this doesn't happen. But something that we used to talk about when I worked with teachers in schools is how some kids are walking in the door, and their resting regulation is halfway to dysregulation and because of the environment that they go home to every day. How much work do you do? And do you do any work around like the rest of so you've got these kids? What about the environment, the space around them? It's critical. Yeah, talk it

Dianne Kosto 29:03
is critical. And that is the one time like if we can make progress in the brain, almost across the board, there's a couple cases where you won't get where you want to. And that's one of them if they're constantly going back into traumatic environment, or if you're in a bad marriage or an abusive situation that you keep going back to will see some improvements in the brain and then a setback and more improvements and then a setback because the body does pay attention to all of that and signals to the brain when they're in that kind of a mode. So that's kind of a vicious cycle that we don't see as much improvements as we want to see other people always wonder Yeah, when else does it not work, maybe if you have like a dream or a thyroid issue that's not being addressed or heavy metal toxins or something in your system. Those are a couple of the other scenarios that don't work. So environment and what you put in your body and how much rest you get is all part of the big picture. And, you know, we coach you in some of those areas as well as we Can Too Long Yeah. And you can see things that show up in that brain that report pointing to those types of stressors.

Casey O'Roarty 30:07
Right? And isn't that powerful for a 15 1617 year old? Because they're so used to the adult saying, Well, let me just tell you the truth about the world. And they're like, Yeah, right. But to be able to say, this is your brain. And here's what's happening, right there.

Dianne Kosto 30:24
And given that piece, like, it's not just that though somebody thinks it's them, or that it is just their attitude or their behaviour, it's really a physical pattern that's driving them in that way, and that they have the ability to use technology to help change it and better regulate it.

Casey O'Roarty 30:39
It's amazing. That's empowering,

Dianne Kosto 30:41
very boring for them.

Casey O'Roarty 30:43
Does it affect the results? If somebody shows up and is not buying it? Or can you just slap that thing on their head and put them in front of the tech and just say, you don't have to buy it, just watch this? Right, right,

Dianne Kosto 30:55
I believe bring on the placebo effect. Anytime that you can get the buy in and add that to it? Yes, let's take it. But I've seen people that don't even understand the process, dramatic brain injuries, severe autism, kids with attitudes in the therapeutic programme that didn't even know what was going on. And we're only doing it because their parents signed them up for it, right. And they still responded in a positive way. And it wasn't till much later that they realised, you know, so you don't 100% have to have the buy in on this because your brain is still going to do what it naturally wants to do wants to see and hear things better that it's interested in.

Casey O'Roarty 31:32
Wow, what are some of the most dramatic shifts that you've seen people that you work with?

Dianne Kosto 31:39
I'll I always think of this one, which you know, and we don't advertise these kinds of things, because you can never predict when or if it's going to happen. But I had a retired gentleman who approached me about helping with marketing the services, because he was kind of excited about it was just doing part time work. And I said, Well, you're gonna have to experience it first, before you can really talk about it. And he had had a stroke eight years prior, and was not able to move his arm and his hand was curled up very tight. And he came in and did within five sessions. It called us back in like, we were in the waiting room, my technician and myself met with him because he wanted to talk to us. And he looked down, he started get these tears in his eyes. And he said, Look, and he started to uncurl his fingers. And he said, I didn't even tell my wife yet, because I can't believe it. And we were all like bawling in the room. But in his case, he had something neurological in his brain that was prohibiting those fingers from moving. And I've heard of other people that have been in severe accidents that had limited movement. And some of that movement came back. That's beyond belief. Yeah, but it happens

Casey O'Roarty 32:46
that the brain is crazy, like the brain. I mean,

Dianne Kosto 32:50
I know. So that's really dramatic. But then, obviously my son's story is very dramatic to me. But like even other girl that was in the programme with him, you know, when she was suicidal was on staff watch was you know, Billy MC all of these different things that she had. And her parents signed her up to start the neurofeedback because they figured why not? You know, we've spent more money than we have. We don't like medication, let's give it a shot. It's not invasive. So she's doing all these sessions and she kept reporting back then it was even a paper form. She kept reporting, no change, no change, no change. And we're just watching her. And I'm observing because I moved to that programme to help my son and I'm watching him. So she's off staff watch. She's not blaming anymore. She's starting to interact with the other kids. She's making some friends. She gets on the leadership team, you know, over these, like, period of a few weeks of me doing these sessions on her no chain. Oh, right. She was like that it was so good. And then after 20 I was only doing 20 session packages that time because I figured out that I really needed the full 1420 was helping. And at the end of them I said, Well, thankfully you don't even have to come in here anymore. You're done with your 20s She begged her parents for another round, because she was starting to just come back to life, you know, and seeing like the spark coming back and some of those kids eyes after having been labelled and failing and all of that for all of those years. Just starting to gain a little bit of confidence in that little spark. It's yeah, it's making me goosebumps and start to cry. Oh my gosh, Diane, it makes me one of the most magnificent things is seeing that in the teens for sure.

Casey O'Roarty 34:24
So the start of symmetry for you was getting this machine driving across the country, or learning how to use it, what it was all about. And then taking it to your son's school and just starting to kind of like sell these sessions and

Dianne Kosto 34:37
do it yep, do it. I just did it. I started with him. I spoke to the parents and they were like bring it on. It makes sense. I was running sessions on students that everybody there. Then eventually I talked them into what Hey, this is a service you should be charging for so it became a business and then I launched to become a trainer and to set up other offices and do whatever I could to Get it out there because I was just blown away that I didn't know about it all of that those years. And I came out of the gates with 100% success rate. And every single person I put on that Neurofeedback machine that did some sessions showed some type of positive improvement. So yeah, that launched me into the mission of this is ridiculous that we didn't know about this. And we need to get the

Casey O'Roarty 35:20
word out there. Yeah, more than ever. And so tell us about your company.

Dianne Kosto 35:25
Yes. So we now we have the home training services specific to get it out into the families and the households, that's the ultimate mission is to make it accessible for everyone. I'll train professionals on how to provide it. We have the equipment, the software, the hardware, the training, the support, anything you need, we'll go in and set up in schools or therapeutic programmes or offices that want it for their staff or staff retention, anything I can do to get it out there. That's what we're all about. And we're continuing to develop. I've now partnered with Cameron Allen and Dr. Jojo yawns to also further the technology to make it even more accessible, and bring in some other fun things like virtual reality training and balance board stuff. You know, we're using technology anyways, why not use it to regulate the nervous system and the brains

Casey O'Roarty 36:13
are all about the mom on a mission. Indeed, thank you for hearing the call and stepping into it. I'm so excited. I have a list in my head of clients and family members that I'm so excited to encourage to look into this. As we close. Is there anything else you want to make sure you leave the listeners with before we say goodbye?

Dianne Kosto 36:39
Well, I think we've touched on a lot of it, but really summarising that, you know, there are physical patterns in the brain as to why people respond and react the way they do. And to get this into that level of the household where we can better improve that family dynamic. It can really change our society. So anybody interested in that mission in any way? Let's come together and do that.

Casey O'Roarty 37:00
Yeah, I mean, yes, I'm coming together, Sign me up. I love it. So let's do it. So in positive discipline, it's based in Adlerian theory, which is the idea that human behaviour is always movement towards a sense of belonging and significance. And sometimes we take like side roads to get to belonging and significance, but we're always heading in that direction, where I love the idea of, like, just clearing things out in the brain, and repatterning, you know, funky areas, so that that striving towards belonging and significance can be a really healthy path, versus some of the ways that yeah, it just gets it gets weird, it gets funky, it gets, you know, Miss guided. And so I really see the work that I'm doing and the work that you're doing as being so compatible. So again, thank you.

Dianne Kosto 37:59
I love that term of clearing that path. And I always think of it too as clearing that path to become more of who you really are. Yeah, without the interference, right. You know, when you clear that path, you just are more of who you are. And that spark comes back in my

Casey O'Roarty 38:16
amazing. Can we all do neurofeedback? Do we have to have a big issue?

Dianne Kosto 38:20
Absolutely not. There should be no stigma attached to it. Peak performers and Olympic teams are using it. It's shift not mainstream as much as it needs to be. But yes, we all should be doing it. Yeah, I fully believe that. And as I said, I haven't seen a perfect brain yet.

Casey O'Roarty 38:35
Lead right who am I am like, can someone like me? Who's got all of her shit together? Diane is Neurofeedback for me too.

Dianne Kosto 38:41
Yeah, yes, it's for us as well, for sure.

Casey O'Roarty 38:45
So my last question that I always ask my guests, and you can speak to it in the context of what we're talking about, what does joyful courage mean to you?

Dianne Kosto 38:55
Wow. When I hear that term, I just think about my journey, and just continuing to push forward and not giving up and trying to find an answer for my son. And every time I believed, and I had the courage to do the next thing and just knowing that it was going to work I so I had to stay is stressful. That was, for me at least just taking that next step and getting out there and doing something and trying the next thing was joyful courage for us and our family.

Casey O'Roarty 39:27
Where can people find you and follow your work?

Dianne Kosto 39:30
Symmetry neuro pt.com is our website. I'm sure you'll post it. Yep. You know, give us a call. We'll have a conversation with you and see how you can join the mission.

Casey O'Roarty 39:40
And you are online. So anyone who's listening doesn't matter where they are, can reach out and figure out a way to work with you and we get some support. Beautiful. Absolutely. Thank you so much for spending time with me. This was amazing.

Dianne Kosto 39:54
Thank you, Casey. I'm sure we could spend another couple hours chatting so maybe another time we will for sure. Thank you

Casey O'Roarty 40:08
thank you so much for listening in today thank you to my spreadable partners as well as Chris Mann and the team at pod shaper for all the support with getting the show out there and making it sound good. Check out our offers for parents with kids of all ages and sign up for our newsletter to stay connected at beast brothel.com. Tune back in later this week for our Thursday show and I'll be back with another interview next Monday. Peace

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