Eps 639: Politics and Parenting with Alyson Schafer

“I think in the context of this conversation, joyful courage really to me feels like a parallel to what we think of as resilience. You know, we have to be courageous, but we need to do it with a certain attitude… We get to choose our attitude. Adler was a big thing. You can’t change your life situation, but you always change your attitude about your life situation. So I think being resilient is having a positive attitude about things, being able to be better and doing the socially interested part of what can I do right now that would be helpful in whatever way, shape, or form that that is.”
–Alyson Shafer

Resources Mentioned

Books:

• Breaking the Good Mom Myth by Alyson Schafer
• Ain’t Misbehavin’ by Alyson Schafer
• Seven Habits of Highly Effective Families by Stephen Covey
• Joyful Courage: Calming the Drama and Taking Control of YOUR Parenting Journey by Casey O’Roarty

Concepts & Frameworks:

• Alfred Adler’s Individual Psychology
• Positive Discipline approach
• The Four Crucial Cs (by Amy Lew and Betty Lou Bettner):
  • Connected (belonging)
  • Capable (skills/mastery)
  • Count (mattering)
  • Courage (encouragement/courage to be imperfect)
• Family meetings as democratic practice

Organizations:

• International Committee for Adlerian Summer Schools and Institutes (ICASSI)
• 5calls.org  – Mentioned at the top of the show

Connect with Alyson Schafer:

• Website: AlysonSchafer.com
• Podcast: Parenting the Adlerian Way
• Social Media: Instagram and Facebook (links on website)

Other:

• Feed the People (local unsheltered people support program mentioned by Alyson)

Transcription

[00:00:00] Casey O'Roarty: Welcome, welcome, welcome to the Joyful Courage Podcast. This is a place where parents of tweens and teens come to find inspiration, information, and encouragement in the messy terrain of adolescents this season of parenting. Is no joke. And while the details of what we're all moving through might be slightly different, we are indeed having a very collective experience.
[00:00:30] This is a space where we center building, relationship, nurturing life skills, and leaning into our own personal growth and man. The opportunities abound, right. My name is Casey Ody. I am a parent coach, positive discipline lead trainer, and captain of the adolescent ship over at Sprout Bowl. I'm also a speaker and a published author.
[00:00:53] I've been working with parents and families for over 20 years. And continue to navigate my own experience of being a mom with my two young adult kids. I'm so honored that you're here and listening. Please give back to the podcast by sharing it with friends or on social media rate and review us on Apple or Spotify.
[00:01:13] Word of mouth is how we grow. Thank you so, so much. Enjoy the show.
[00:01:22] Hey listeners, you know, I've been thinking a lot lately about how our kids are navigating the weight of current world events, the news cycle, the political climate, the tension that seems to be everywhere. I shared a little bit about this at the start of last week's show, and as parents, it makes sense that we wanna protect them, to reassure them to somehow make it all okay.
[00:01:46] Even as we may not feel okay with what's happening here in the United States on the national stage, what if our role isn't to shield our kids from turbulence, but to help them develop the inner resources to navigate when things get messy? What if the way we show up in our living room during the difficult times is actually preparing them to be the kinds of citizens?
[00:02:11] That our world desperately needs. So today's conversation goes deep into these questions with someone. I have enormous respect for both personally and professionally. Allison Schaeffer is a psychotherapist, bestselling author, and one of the leading voices in positive discipline and Adlerian psychology.
[00:02:30] She's written multiple books including breaking the Good Mom Myth and Ain't Misbehaving, and her work has helped families around the world move from power struggles to cooperation. I reached out to Allison after getting a recent newsletter from her. She wrote about how Alfred Adler, who you'll remember the work of Positive Discipline is based on developed his theories in response to the political upheaval of his time, and how the choice between obedience based parenting and democracy and families actually shaped.
[00:03:03] The kind of world citizens our children become. So in this episode, Allison and I will be exploring how to be with our teens during this weird, not okay, not normal, politically turbulent time. Not by avoiding the hard conversations, but by leaning into curiosity, connection, and yes, even some hope. We'll talk about reading our teen's cues when they're struggling, what to do when they shut down, how to help them move.
[00:03:28] From overwhelm to agency and why the discussions happening at your kitchen table matter more than you might think. So let's dive in. Hi Allison. Welcome to the podcast. I'm so happy to be here. Thank you so, so much. I am so glad that you're here too. It's been a minute since we shared this kind of space with each other, and I just really value everything that you put out in the world.
[00:03:55] And like I mentioned, you know, a lot of people send newsletters. There was something, I don't know if it was the subject line or just like, Ooh, I, I noticed like, ooh, Allison's in my inbox. But yeah, I opened that email of yours, that newsletter, and I was so struck by how useful it was. Right? And this is something in my family, you know, I've got these two kids who are very vocal and they're 20 and almost 23 now.
[00:04:21] They're, you know, all over social media, getting their news from TikTok, teaching me a lot about things that are happening in the world. 'cause I'm not paying attention at the same level that they are. And one of my kids is just so full of dread, you know, she doesn't, she's like, why bother having kids? Like the world is ending.
[00:04:39] I'm probably not even gonna be as old as you are before that happens. And it just, it breaks my heart and I also stumble a little bit as I'm trying to hold space for them and also remind them like things ebb and flow in history. So we're gonna get into that. So this is very personally useful for me as well as professionally for my listeners.
[00:05:00] You mentioned in the newsletter that Alfred Adler developed his theory of individual psychology in response to, like I said already, the political upheaval of his time. Can you help us understand what was he witnessing and what led him to focus on democracy and families rather than that more traditional obedience based parenting that was prevalent in his time?
[00:05:21] Tell us a little bit about Adler.
[00:05:23] Alyson Schaffer: Yeah, I, I wanna tell you about Adler and I also just wanna tell you how my family tapped into Adler. 'cause it kind of speaks to my whole childhood. So, for listeners who, you know, hopefully they do know that the positive discipline approach that you've been and many other people have been helping get out there is based on the work of Alfred Adler.
[00:05:41] And he doesn't have great name recognition, and I understand that he even knew that he didn't wanna be a big name. He just, he wanted to be a big influence. He didn't wanna be famous. But you know, it was basically Alfred Adler, Carl Young and Sigmund Freud were really the three big thinkers, you know, in Europe at the time that really brought sort of psychology into its next level, its next iteration, um, of, of development.
[00:06:07] And that was all happening turn of the century. And so he was a physician first. I also a psychiatrist, but he was a physician first. And so that meant that during World War I, that he was out on the battlefield. Seeing the carnage, you know, I mean seeing the carnage and, uh, he was also Jewish. And so during the uprise of the Nazi regime and the fascist regime, this was the backdrop of him developing his theory of individual psychology, he called it.
[00:06:38] Um, and one of the big pieces that he was paying attention to as he was getting his thinking evolved. It was, how is it that we as human beings looking at the history over time, that there always seems to be somebody that is trying to grab the power and oppress other people. And when that happens, the oppressed eventually will not tolerate it anymore and they will rise up.
[00:07:07] And then they will grab the power. They never share it equally. It's like a teeter-totter that goes back and forth. And he was like, oh my goodness. Like how do we all learn to live together with all our ideologies, all of our countries, all of our religious beliefs, you know, all of our backgrounds. How do people live together cooperatively.
[00:07:29] With all of our differences, and he really inspirationally believed that that was quite possible. So he was very focused on the goal of raising cooperative human beings and getting out of this hierarchical situation where somebody holds the power, somebody doesn't have the power, and then you fight to get the power.
[00:07:49] And if you think about that, that's a lot of what happens in parent-child relationships. You know, we make all the rules, we say when it's bedtime, you have to, you know, do as I say. And if you don't, then you know, I, back in the day, they were allowed to use corporal punishment. I mean, it was easy to keep kids in line.
[00:08:04] When everybody else in society said, parents hold the power and you were allowed to spank them, you know, you know, use the wooden spoon. My, my former husband's from Germany, so that was like, you know, you, you got the, the wooden spoon came outta the kitchen cabinet and you knew that was serious business was about to happen, you know, or, or not talking for days, yeah.
[00:08:24] You'd, you know, get the cold shoulder. But they were all based on basically, you know, a punishment model. Do, as I say, step in line with my will. If you don't, you, you will be punished. And we kind of moved a little bit away from that where we started saying like, okay, well I probably shouldn't punish kids, but you know, really what we did is we end up really becoming a very rewards based, you know, if you do what I say, then you get a sticker on your sticker chart, or you get extra time on your iPad.
[00:08:49] But, you know, it's just the, it's the opposite side of the exact same equation. Yeah. Which is an o obedience model that says, I, I say what goes on here and I will lure and manipulate you into minding my will. Which is an incredibly different approach to human relationships, whether this is in marriages, parent, child, teacher, student workplace, where it's like, I wanna get along with you, I wanna get along with my fellow man.
[00:09:18] And that this was, that was really quite philosophical about the idea that human problems are social problems and one of the hardest things is like, how do we get along with one another? And he really set about creating guidelines and principles and approaches. So he created child guidance centers that were set up to address the issues that were happening between teachers and students and between parents and children.
[00:09:45] And he basically ran all the child guidance centers at all the public schools in Vienna. When the Nazi regime came in, they closed them all. Fascism closed. They didn't like democracy. They don't want people having free will. They don't want people to have a voice. People that are in power don't want the people who aren't in power to get any sense of, of of their, of their worth.
[00:10:04] You know? They work hard to keep us down, you know? Yeah. And so. Even though my work has been, you know, the application of this theory in parenting as, as the same with you, it does have very direct and specific goals about world peace. Like it's, you know, a, a harmonious home and children who know how to cooperate and they practice that in the home and they practice democratic ideals are more likely to go out.
[00:10:36] And, and probably right now, be angry. You know, I'm, I'm, I'm sorry that your daughter's distraught, but it's an appropriate time to be distraught. Yeah. 'cause it me, it means there are things that are upsetting because we see the injustice. And that means you've done a good job because back in the day, you know, think about just even simply.
[00:10:56] Women in the right to vote. You know, the suffragettes, there's a lot of women who did not think women should vote. It's wild. You know, it's, I know, right? Mm-hmm. And, and it was the other women that had to say, do you know that you are worthy? Do you know that you have something to say? And so every generation, I think, is pushing democracy further and further, and we're getting those concepts deeper and deeper.
[00:11:17] You know, we're only a few generations away from a lot of these dictatorships and these fascists. Fascist re regimes, but every generation, if we raise our kids properly, their tolerance for this is gonna be lower and lower and knowing how to act and respond. And that's where I kind of wanted to. I go back to my childhood.
[00:11:36] So my parents and my grandparents were Ed Leary and parent educators, and I grew, I grew up in this and you know, my parents, I grew up in the sixties and my parents were kind of hippie doodles. God loved them. And so, you know, we had draft Dodgers from the Vietnam War living in our house. So even though we lived in a two bedroom house, we always had borders and always took people in.
[00:12:01] And, uh, you know, my, my parents were activists around everything. Um, and so I watched that. They modeled it to me. I, I mean, my mother just would love to play all her little folk songs on her guitar. And, you know, we shall, you know, how many doves, you know, I mean, I could, I grew up my moral lessons I think were, were entrenched in folk music, but my parents were like, frontline really doing something about it.
[00:12:29] Mm-hmm. You know, they were really doing. Something about it. So I think for me it was very ingrained. You know, my brothers and I, uh, worked against the Ontario government to get, uh, the Lord's Prayer out of, um, the, the schools, um, in, in Ontario. Um, because we, it used to be it's public education. So why are we only saying one religion's prayer?
[00:12:51] Right. So, I mean, I was an activist from the time I was in grade seven, grade eight. I was always taking on causes. Mm-hmm. And, and that was really, it was my upbringing. It, it's because that democracy and that feeling of being empowered that I could make a difference, even though I was a child, that was modeled to me.
[00:13:06] It was shown to me in my home. It was shown to me in my family meetings. So, you know, it wasn't, it wasn't a hard step for me, you know, so I really feel that that was a big part of the contribution of Alerian psychology and how my parents chose to raise me and why it's so important that all the parent, the positive discipline work that you're doing is, it's not just changing families.
[00:13:29] It's like gonna change the world.
[00:13:31] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah, and I feel that I shared listeners, I shared with Allison before I hit record about, and I mentioned this last week on my podcast, just about the social media posts that I put out last week when I just was just feeling enough tension to wanna remind everybody of just that like we center relationship, we center mutual respect, we center center looking for solutions and problem solving and encouragement and compassion.
[00:13:57] And I think that there, well, I know that in some families there are teens that are fired up and talking about what they're seeing and how they're feeling. And you can see it, it's obvious at the surface for parents like, whoa, you're really, you know, paying attention. Some kids not, you know, perhaps not so much for whatever reason.
[00:14:17] So when, and you talk about this, you talked about this in your newsletter, and I'd love to dig into it here. So you emphasized how important it's for us to be paying attention. To those verbal and nonverbal cues to kind of assess how our kids are doing. What are some of the more subtle signs you think that parents might miss that indicate that their teen is struggling with the current climate and the current events?
[00:14:41] I
[00:14:42] Alyson Schaffer: mean, it's wonderful if you have that, you know, kid that's more the acting out, verbal, engaged, and they're gonna tell you what's going on in their life. But, you know, in teenage years they often go for more privacy and, and a lot of the, um, angst kind of goes inward. And I think as parents, we do have to pay attention to that.
[00:14:58] That would be the same about world events and politics. But I would say that's also the same, whether or not there's like a bullying situation or something in their friend group going on and they don't necessarily bring it forward, but you, I think we always have to kind of have like a barometer on our kids and be attuned to what's happening there.
[00:15:15] And generally I would say it's, you wanna watch for anything that's kind of a change from baseline. So. Um, if you have a kid that normally comes down and engages with the family on the regular, and then suddenly they're kind of like a little bit more hanging out in their room more than they normally do, or you notice changing in their sleeping patterns, changes in their eating habits, anything that would be.
[00:15:39] Like a body sign of holding stress. So like that often comes across as headaches. You know, I don't wanna go to school today. I got a headache. Oh, I don't wanna go to school today. I've got a stomach ache, school drop off, Mark's, plunging. Those are all kind of red flags that like something is amiss and it, it could be that there's other things going on in their world that, that are creating this stress reaction.
[00:16:04] But there is really like, you know, we had, um, there's like gonna be a new diagnosis I think in the next version of the DSM that there is gonna, beco anxiety is actually gonna be something that gets ego, anxiety, eco ego. Oh, ego. Yeah. Eco people that are worried about global warming. Yeah. And yeah. Yeah.
[00:16:21] 'cause it's become so, it's become such a big thing. Um, such a focus. And I think right now. You know, as we're seeing, there's just so many things that are happening simultaneously. Like, I couldn't, even, even in my newsletter, I started with Venezuela, but then Minnesota happened, and by the time I actually got to hit press and release, then we ended up with Iran.
[00:16:39] Like, I mean, I don't know, I'm gonna have to send a newsletter every day to catch up on what is going on, but it, it does seem that there is this. A very big, sweeping movement that feels very overwhelming even to adults. I can't even imagine. For kids who really look for their safety to be their parents and to be their government, and when those things aren't stable, you know, that's really like, ooh, like.
[00:17:02] You know, are you gonna be okay? Are you gonna be drafted? Are you gonna be detained? Are we gonna be sent back? Are we gonna get shot at? Are we gonna have a war without structure? Which is, again, going back to some of the things that we teach in positive discipline. Like why do kids need structure? Like why do we have bedtimes and we need to brush our teeth and our coat goes here and her mm-hmm.
[00:17:21] Shoes go there and, and it's not because we're being rigid and mean, it's because kids actually really like predictability and stability because it means they know that they're safe. Yeah. And right now we've lost a lot of stability in some of these other parts of the world. So, you know, we have to be, uh, as parents, I think we need to watch for their stressors, uh, because they may not volunteer it up to us.
[00:17:43] And I think we have to really try to be that extra level of balance and, and rock. And security and a, you know, a, a safe zone in the home when everything else seems tumultuous.
[00:18:07] Casey O'Roarty: I was talking to a friend recently about this, how, and, you know, different experience than you had with your parents. My parents were not activists. Um, and being in high school, I have no idea what was going on politically in the. Late eighties, you know, I have no idea. I was being a teenager, I was going to the beach.
[00:18:27] I was figuring out how to push my curfew. I was hanging out with my friends and now it seems like our teens, adolescents have their finger on the pulse of too much information. And so, you know, just wanna acknowledge that as well. That's the world we live in is information overload. Um, with our kiddos and you know, one of the, when I think about like what you just said about, you know, being cur, you know, getting curious with them when we notice these indicators of like, feels like something's amiss or even when our kids are big and like, did you here?
[00:19:03] And I can't believe which hopefully, I mean, I would hope that they are anyway. There's reasons, there
[00:19:10] Alyson Schaffer: are reasons to be upset. Yes.
[00:19:13] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. And you know, when we think about our parenting tools. One of those. I know for me something that I like, a little one two combo that is so useful for me with my kiddos is, you know, first the validation and then the curiosity, like validating it makes sense that you feel this way.
[00:19:31] I hear you. And then tell me more. Tell me more, talk a little bit about how powerful curiosity can be with our teens as a tool. You know, not to manipulate how they're thinking about things. That's not the point. But truly to help them be thinkers of their thinking, which I think is such a useful life skill for them to take.
[00:19:55] Can you talk a little bit about that?
[00:19:56] Alyson Schaffer: Yeah. Casey, I agree with you there, that you, and I think this kind of comes down to like a, that famous, um. Was it, um, Stephen Covey that did the Seven Habits of Highly Effective Families? Yeah. And I think it was principle number five, like seek first to understand, then be understood.
[00:20:13] Mm-hmm. You know, which is also like probably in the old classic, the Art of war. Uh, like, I mean, it's an, it's an old, it's an old thought, but we still need to refresh it in people's memory. Because we, if you go in being curious, you, you're, you're actually, you stand to benefit because it's in the seeking of like get, if a parent wants to know their child, then they have to know their thinking.
[00:20:36] You have to know, like what are their attitudes, what are their beliefs? Like, what are they putting together? What are they synthesizing out of? What they're experiencing in life and online and from their influencers and, and influencers. I don't, again, just mean online. I mean, it could be that they're coaches, their biggest influencer mm-hmm.
[00:20:53] Or their, you know, their grandpas, their biggest influencer. You know, what are they piecing together? What are they making of the world? Like, how are they getting this all together? Yeah, because I don't think until you understand you, I don't think you really can kind of write the, or think about how you might engage in where the next part of the conversation would go.
[00:21:15] Like, I learned so much from being curious, and I realize if you shut down a conversation, you miss some of the most important points like. It was just working with a family today, and the kid was fighting about, he wanted to be able to go to the gym at eight 30, and that was a change in his curfew. And, and they were like, no, it's too late, blah, whatever.
[00:21:32] And they didn't have any curiosity. And I just said, has it occurred to you that there might be some girl that goes to the gym and she only goes at eight 30? Like have you asked like what? Like if he blew up that hard, if he had that much of an emotional reaction. You know? Yeah. What was that? What was that about?
[00:21:50] And so I think that, you know, if we're not curious and we don't really know what's going on, we, we really can't pull out our best parenting in those situations. And so, you know, like for example. I think there's a real problem right now with part of the patriarchy and the power structure, which is like a big erian thing that we have a lot of our young boys that are like being influenced by say like the Andrew Tates of the world.
[00:22:18] Yeah. And they're drinking the Kool-Aid of that. And I think to say like, so tell, so tell me about that. Like why is he an impressive person? Like why does having a big car and a big payroll make money to you? Why do you think it, you know, tell me about, you know, his attitude towards women and why you find that impressive.
[00:22:36] Like, I, I think that just asking the curiosity questions as opposed to that man's the demon and we believe in social equality and your, those are materialistic values. Then your kid just shuts down. You, you really never get the. It, it's kind of like if it's, um, going through the levels of crust of the earth, like you wanna get to the core, like you wanna get down, like you wanna get down into the heart of the onion, you know?
[00:23:01] Yeah. And, and parents just shut it down on the outer layer from their reactivity, and they're wanting to preach and lecture and push values and push morals, and they think, that's my job. Like, that's my job as a parent. I, I need to correct this child. I need to. Put them on the straight path. But inevitably it really invites pushback.
[00:23:23] And in fact, I've been hearing from a lot of my parents that if they're in power struggles, you know, as we know is one of the mm-hmm. Goals of, uh, and, and, and in their rebellion against their parents, they're enjoying saying pro-Trump things because they know their parents are anti-Trump. So they know, it's like the most insulting thing they can say.
[00:23:43] Do I really think that, that those kids really believe or want to espouse those values? And some do, don't get me wrong. Yeah. I mean I've got, there's people in my practice that also support Trump, but like the idea of using it as just weaponized. Arguments for fighting. Well, it's like a puppet show. It's
[00:24:00] Casey O'Roarty: like, look what I can do.
[00:24:02] And I have to, I have to be transparent. Like there are certain things that, it is big work for me not to be like, oh no, you know, like, let me tell you what I think. It's because, and, and I just wanna acknowledge that listeners, like we have deep values, we have deep opinions, and we get to have those deep values and opinions.
[00:24:25] And what I'm hearing you say. Allison, when we can like go deeper than the surface. Again, if our goal is for our kids to have well-developed values and opinions, then we've gotta give them space to be in consideration versus just reaction to us. And there was a period of time where my son. Really loved to drop some choice pro-Trump things.
[00:24:51] And I got, I like, and you know, I mean, he's a top of the ladder kid. He's a good looking big white, you know, comes from privilege. Like he's the top of the ladder kid. And I'm like, oh my God, what do I gotta do to make sure my kid is in a douche bag? And. We, what I also remember is I have a very strained relationship with my dad because we're on opposite ends of the political spectrum and that has taken center that can it, you know, I work really hard to not allow it to 'cause I want to be in relationship with my father.
[00:25:23] Yeah, but I don't, looking ahead, I don't wanna recreate. I was like, I don't wanna recreate this with my son. And so I stopped. I started noticing when I got fired up and I started softening, just like you said. Got curious. Come to find out, my son does not really believe any of that stuff. Yeah. He just thought it was hilarious to make the whole family freak out at the dinner table.
[00:25:47] So yeah, we get to go deeper with them and it's a gift for us. But it's also, again, a gift for them because you know that development happens as they respond to our curiosity, especially when they feel safe to respond with, you know, honesty and authenticity. When it doesn't feel like a ploy or a trap, you know?
[00:26:10] Which I think sometimes for some kids it does. Curiosity can be delivered in a way that feels like, well, what are you getting at here, mom and dad? So I think that's important too.
[00:26:18] Alyson Schaffer: And, and I would, I would put that back on the parents, which is like, yeah, what are you like, don't Exactly, you can't, you can't Fake curiosity.
[00:26:25] Yeah. I'm sorry. They're gonna sniff that out. Yeah. And push that right back on you. You have to truly get an attitude of curiosity. And I think, like, think about, you know, back in the day we used to have debating clubs. Yeah. Where you had to, like, you had to think critically. You had to come up with your point of view and, and then you could switch.
[00:26:42] You could be like, okay, I think the drinking age should be 21. I think the drinking age should be 19. Okay, now you're on the Pro 21. Now you gotta switch and be on the Pro 19. And but you, you had to learn flexibility of thinking. Yeah. You had to see different, yeah. It still meant that you had to be open minded, build an argument, think things through critically.
[00:27:01] And so, you know, as I feel like again, you know, how do we raise kids to, to have some of these qualities and you know, one of the. Underrated. But most important things that I think that we have in our, you know, positive discipline toolbox is like we really believe in family meetings. Yes. And, you know, if you're gonna start talking about whether or not it should be a democracy, you know, a republic in, you know, and, and now they're in Iran, they're calling back an an older dictator from, you know, from a Monarch family.
[00:27:34] Like, and if you wanna have these kind of conversations. Wouldn't it be great to start the conversation with saying like, you know, well, what do we wanna do about cleaning up toys? Um, you know, or how clean should bedrooms be? Or. You know, what if we don't all like to eat the same foods, you know, how are we gonna make a menu together?
[00:27:57] Mm-hmm. Like these, it's like, those are small things, but that's like, that is the beginning of being flexible, seeing a different point of view, seeing other ways things can be solved. But it, they're, they're in kid friendly contextual realms so that you work your way up. To talking about, you know, do we have, you know, do we have a fair voting system?
[00:28:19] Does everybody have access to democracy? Like, you know, the, the, these conversations get more and more and more and more complex. But like, start with the small ones where you're, you're being intrigued and you've, you've set a tone for the kind of conversation. I find that kids that don't wanna talk to their parents.
[00:28:38] Some of them are just private, and I understand that, and teens are more private than other ages and stages of life, but a lot of times it's because the goal of being quiet is usually, it's gonna be a negative experience emotionally for me. Mm-hmm. You're gonna tell me I'm wrong? Yeah. You're gonna make me feel less than.
[00:28:56] Mm-hmm. You're not gonna support me like it's gonna be a negative emotional experience. Think about that from like goal directed behavior. We always talk about the four goals or whatever, but like, think about the idea of like emotional goals. Kids wanna move from felt minus to felt, plus they don't wanna go into an environment where they're feeling like, I'm gonna be criticized, I'm gonna be judged, I'm gonna be, you know, whatever.
[00:29:18] I'm gonna go to felt minus if we start this conversation. So if they're like rolling their eyes and, but, but if you're somebody who's proven to them that I'm a safe person to talk to and I just actually am truly curious. Um, then it becomes more like a social studies class where like you're kind of respecting them and saying like, I wanna hear your opinion.
[00:29:38] I think you've got some great thoughts there. Like, let's, let's chew this idea up together. This is great. You're like intellectual sparring partner. I, I respect you so much. Kids will step into that 'cause now you're giving them a felt positive of being smart and having something to say and, and mattering, which is like one of the, the third Cs of, you know, Amy Lou Ners and Betty Lou's, you know, four crucial Cs.
[00:29:59] I dunno if you talk about that in your, I don't. What are the four crucial Cs? Oh yeah. So, so those are also in Lian terms. Um, Amy, Lou, um, and, uh, Betty Lou Ner created the Four Crucial Cs, and they're kind of the protective beliefs that children need. Um, and so the first one is that you're connected, which is the belonging piece.
[00:30:20] Mm-hmm. The second one is that you're capable, right. Skills. Mm-hmm. Skills, mastery, autonomy. The third is that you count and that's the mattering. Mm-hmm. There's a big book out right now about mattering, like being important and having, taking up space and bringing value. And then the last one is courage, which is really what underlines all our stuff about.
[00:30:37] Yeah. You know, encouragement and the courage to be imperfect. Yeah. So, you know, if, if those four crucial Cs are, are really important for kids' experiences, so you know, when you say you matter, like I want to hear your opinion. I'm here to move you to a position of felt positive emotionally. Yeah. I, I really do hear, I wanna hear your perspective.
[00:30:55] Yeah. Because I think with kids, what we see about like instilling values is if you cram them down their throat, they tend to regurgitate them. So forced values are very hard. You know, you'll see basically what you'll see in, is in, in a sibling ship, for example, let's just say you, we'll use the example of religion.
[00:31:16] One will end up becoming a priest or a minister and the other one will end up becoming a sinner. Mm-hmm. Or let's say the value is about money. One is gonna end up hoarding money and becoming a millionaire, and the other one's gonna be living on the street 'cause they can't figure out how to put two pennies together.
[00:31:31] Mm-hmm. So if you push a value, it tends to be a polarizing. Value in the family. The siblings can't all hold the same value. So you, you, you do wanna bring your values forward, um, but you, but you can't push them. Like it's the, it's the over demonstrative perspective that creates problems down the road. So, yes, speak your opinion, but listen to your kid's opinion.
[00:31:56] And the thing is, if you, if you have a good relationship with your child and you kind of have their ear, and that's a really big important concept in teen years. If you don't have a relationship, you're not gonna influence them one way or the other. Doesn't matter. Doesn't matter. So doesn't matter. So you build the relationship, then you have their ear, and then you say, well, you know, here's how I kind of see the world, organize the world.
[00:32:15] And if your kid is like, well I think my mom's all that in a bag of chips. Um, you know, if she thinks that way, she probably is something important to say. You know, she, she knows a thing or two, she's been around the block. You know, I kinda like her, kinda like the family. Um, and I should probably open up my mind to that idea.
[00:32:31] Casey O'Roarty: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. You know, I talked to parents that what we're doing here is we're just increasing the likelihood that we have some influence. We're increasing the likelihood of good outcomes, we're increasing the likelihood, you know, that our kids really embrace the idea that they are in the design of their life.
[00:32:48] That's how I kind of speak into it. Yeah, beautiful. And I really love, you know, as you were talking about curiosity. And safety and listeners, people that are listening right now who are like, Ooh, yeah, I am in that dynamic of, I'm guessing I have been really critical, or I have been really judgmental. I have done these things that they're now listening to us talk about, like not so great.
[00:33:12] I just wanna give a lifeline to those people and say, and I'd love to hear what you have to say, but a great place to start to turn the ship is simply insane. I've been really critical, or I've been really judgmental. I'm learning about how I've been showing up with you and how it hasn't been helpful to our relationship.
[00:33:32] It hasn't been helpful to how you experience me, and I am working to. Be different. Right. And just start there. Start by peeling back the curtain and saying like, let's speak into what is real and, you know, make that declaration about I'm, I'm learning to do, to do it differently 'cause it's important. You are important to me.
[00:33:53] This relationship is important to me. Any, anything? What else can you offer parents who are like, oh yeah, this is the dynamic that I'm in with my teenager. Is there anything else that would be helpful for them to help? Create a different shared space that feels more safe for their kids to step into.
[00:34:10] Alyson Schaffer: Yeah.
[00:34:10] I I, I love how you said that. You know, it's kind of like a lot of times we get to that after the fight. Think about it with your kids or think about it with your spouses or whatever, where you have like a big fight and you're screaming and you're yelling and whatever, and, and how does it end? You're crying and you're like, I'm so sorry.
[00:34:25] It's just because I'm so scared and I didn't want it. And it's like, oh my God, why did it take us so long to get to this agenda? And, and now it, like, it took the tears, it took the, the battle went away or whatever. Um, but that's when the good stuff comes out. Like that's when the honest stuff comes out, like, what is this really about?
[00:34:42] And so I think that to your point about saying to parents, like to be vulnerable to their kids, to be able to say, Hey, listen, I wasn't raised this way. I don't know what I'm doing. I'm scared. I don't have a role model. Like I'm trying, I'm gonna mess up. You're gonna be my teacher. Yeah. Um, just, you know, could you at least just have some good faith in me that like, I'm not actually out to be like a schmuck in your life.
[00:35:05] Like, I didn't, you know, I don't actually get some like secret joy. Like, I'm not sad, I'm not sadistic. Um, but I, I think, I think in listening to these world events, we can say, you know, it, it is so interesting to me that I am realizing that it's like. Like, who am I to rule this family if I don't think that guy should be ruling that country?
[00:35:30] Mm-hmm. So maybe I do need to check myself and I gotta figure out what that looks like. Mm-hmm. And um. You know, I would like our house to look more like some of the healthy countries around the world and not like some of the unhealthy countries around the world. I don't, I wanna be a healthy family. I wanna be a healthy family unit.
[00:35:50] Um, and I like the idea of democracy and I, I like the idea of people having a voice, and I like the idea of respecting everybody. And I like the idea that, that different people wanna show up in the world in different ways.
[00:36:03] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:36:04] Alyson Schaffer: And even if, I think that the best way to study is to like do 15 minutes every night before the test.
[00:36:09] And you think the best way to study is to cram the night before. Um, you know, I we're just different people. Tomato, tomato. I gotta, I need to live with difference too. And I'm, I'm getting, I'm getting used to that. I, you know, yes.
[00:36:32] Casey O'Roarty: I mean, it took me till my daughter was in anatomy and physiology in college and I'm telling her, you know, flashcards were what I loved and I could, this is how I did it. And she was so anti flashcards simply because it was my way. And she figured out how to kill anatomy and physiology one, two, and three in her own way.
[00:36:54] With her own. Yeah. So we get to all, there's also something here in trusting and having faith in them. That they can figure things out, not by saying like, good luck with that, but really like, I believe in you and this is, you're looking through your own lens and you're making sense of it through your own lens.
[00:37:11] And if you wanna hear what I think, great. One of the things that I've also mentioned to both my kids with the latest madness is, you know, when I start to feel really overwhelmed. By what's happening current events wise. I go from the macro craziness to the, I, I go micro and I look at my family and I look at my community and I see where are, am I showing up?
[00:37:36] Well, how can I, like you are talking about like the family is the first place where we get to birth democracy, and then there's the, the outer community. And like, you know, I feel very privileged that I don't live in the Twin Cities. You know, we don't have ice on the streets doing. Unbelievable things.
[00:37:55] It's peaceful and, and, and I'm getting worked up about these things. What am I doing? How can I be in contribution? Right? How can I be in contribution? So you talked a little bit in your newsletter about helping teens to identify some actionable steps that they can take for the causes that they care about.
[00:38:14] And how does this, like how do we help them? How do we encourage them to move from passive consumption? Of distressing news, which is so easy. You know, the continuous doom, scrolling into some active engagement so that we're stoking their sense of agency, but also continuing to send that message like, you matter, you are capable, you know, you have a voice.
[00:38:40] Alyson Schaffer: You can. Yeah. Casey, thank you for that question, because I think it's really important. Um, I give the same piece of advice also around grief, you know, which is when we have emotions that are just sitting with us, that part of the way of processing them is to just not be passive, to turn them into some form of action.
[00:38:58] And I, I just think that children need, like, and I say children, young adults, you know, teenagers. Yeah. But all, but of course across the, the, the whole age span. That they really need to like turn what they're thinking into something. And, and so, and it depends on which issue they're concerned about and it concerns, it, it, it depends on the creativity of the child.
[00:39:20] They might have their own idea, but I think without parental guidance to say something like, you know, oh, like a really terrible thing happened. You know, what would feel good for you? Um, I, I know for me, I was thinking that I might go put a teddy bear down on that cross where that person got, you know, hit by the car and, and, um, you know.
[00:39:42] Mm-hmm. Just take a little, take a little moment, uh, to think of them. Do you wanna come with me? Do you wanna light a candle or take a teddy bear? Or it might be, yeah, you know what? I'm, I'm, I'm gonna stop buying that product. I'm not gonna support that, that country anymore. You know, I don't, I don't know how you feel, um, is there, is there something that you, you know, you'd like to kind of boycott and not, not buy anymore?
[00:40:01] And just know that you feel good in yourself, that you're. Making your vote by not purchasing or mm-hmm. But I, I think if you don't bring it up, if you don't say it, if you don't, you know, say it, model it. Yeah. If you don't, yeah. Like, exactly. So I, I don't think they're gonna say, Hey mom, I'd like to go walk in a march.
[00:40:17] Yeah. You know, you might have to say, there's a march downtown. Right. Is that something you'd like to be a part of? And I think, again, making a range of options because again, like not everybody's gonna wanna be in a crowd and mm-hmm. Um, different people hook onto different things. And I, I think it's an important thing to say that you can't say like, well, why are you worried about the elephants in Thailand when you know women in Iran are getting stoned?
[00:40:41] It's like, no, like every person is gonna find their thing. That is the thing that they're really connecting with, and that's the thing that they really need to take some movement on. And, you know, you can't kind of say, well, writing to writing to a politician is more effective than crawling up into a tree and refusing to eat for a month.
[00:41:00] Like not, it's actually whatever. It's, it's not about ranking what you need to do, it's about choosing to do something that feels. Genuine to the child. So if that's like, I wanna, I wanna knit a scarf and, you know, put it, put it on a tree, you know, whatever it is for your kids. But I don't think they're gonna necessarily generate those ideas if you don't kind of give them a little bit of a short list of what you'd like to do or what you like.
[00:41:28] I know right now I'm, I'm involved in. Feed the people for unsheltered people here in, in my hometown. And I said to my kids, I'm making cookies and muffins every Saturday that are gonna go Monday. They get delivered to the people that, um, are, you know, are, are relying on, on food. And I said, come help me bake and cook or don't, but I'm gonna be hosting.
[00:41:48] I'm hosting baking every Saturday. 'cause I'm making, yeah. You know, and they will or they won't, I don't know. But the point is like, if they do, they'll enjoy it. Will they do it every Saturday? I don't know, but I'm doing it and I'm showing them something of what I wanna do to make my, my contribution. And that'll play out for them.
[00:42:05] I don't know this time, the next time is some other way. Something down the road, I don't know, but it's just kinda like a way of living. It's ma, it's just living a life. It's just modeling, living out those values. Right?
[00:42:16] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. I talk about living out loud, so whether it's your self-care practice or. There's, you know, all sorts of things that I'm continuously working on as a human being, human becoming.
[00:42:27] And I speak them like, wow, I, I noticed this one thing is really getting, has been really getting under my skin. And it's just kind of a casual like, well, let me tell you a little bit about me. It's not, you should do it too. I really appreciate that. 'cause they're always taking inventory, even if it's unconsciously.
[00:42:45] Alyson Schaffer: Yeah. They're
[00:42:45] Casey O'Roarty: watching us. We're, you know, there's, the power of suggestion is always there implicitly. So I really, I really appreciate that a lot. And yeah, and I, you know, the whole elephants versus, you know, women's rights in Iran, what happens is we get older and we bump up against different things, and these kids might have the opportunity to say, oh, I remember feeling this way about elephants, and I remember how cool it was to be able to do something.
[00:43:14] I, I can do something here. Right. So I, and thank you also for highlighting how there's no ranking system for what to do. I love that. And I, and even as we're talking about like how to hold this space for teenagers, this is a masterclass for all of us. 'cause we're all feeling this angst right now. And, and, and like I said, it's, most of us are just going, I'm holding up my phone Yeah.
[00:43:41] Into our devices and maybe. Making a comment, you know, definitely having an emotional experience. But really not forwarding any positive, positive meaning, like just forward movement in any kind of, of way. So I love that. And you also wrote being cooperative about being cooperative citizen. So a cooperative child grows into a cooperative world citizen.
[00:44:09] So you talk about watching the news together with your teens and discussing what's being said. When we do that. 'cause I know, you know, I, that's one of my favorite things about watching TV shows and movies to the point where my kids were like, can we just watch the show? Like, well, yeah, but let's talk about this.
[00:44:28] But how, you know, when, when you think about current events and conversations that come up, when the mood and the, and the emotion in the room is probably a bit heightened, what are some of the qualities. Of that discussion that matter as the parents, as the leaders of the family, that we could just kind of keep in our back pocket and, and remember as we prompt, you know, that again, that curiosity and that inquiry with our teens.
[00:44:57] Alyson Schaffer: I mean, I, I, the fact that you're co consuming information is already great. You know, I mean, that's part of the problem is that the majority of people don't watch the six o'clock and the 11 o'clock news with their parents anymore because they're all Yeah, welcome. I don't, there's, yeah, there's a TV in every bedroom and most people are getting it off their phones, right?
[00:45:14] Yeah. So like, it doesn't even, it doesn't even kind of, kind of come up. But the, but the more we can co watch. It means that it is like a time to kind of open up some dialogue and have a shared experience of what's going on. So like, if there's like a big announcement or something and you're like, Hey, I'm gonna, I'm gonna be watching the presidential law, or, or the press secretary is gonna be making a statement or something.
[00:45:37] Do you wanna come down and watch it with me? You know, I, I think that like many things, one of the ways that we bond is by having shared experience and we don't know what we're gonna see. We don't know what we're gonna hear. We don't know how we're gonna react to anything. Yeah. Um, so, you know, I, I think that that's, um, a again, kind of holding them in an adult sphere and you're taking information in at the same time, so you don't have that like superior, inferior, like I heard it first and now I've put it through my.
[00:46:04] My lens of, of like how I'm going teach it to you. Mm-hmm. Make me, you know, or whatever make me, yeah, yeah. You know, that's kinda like, wow, that was raw. What did you think of that? What, you know, what were your takeaways? Yes. Um, you know, so I, I think it creates kind of a bit of an egalitarian environment when mm-hmm.
[00:46:22] When you do that, uh, again, you know, it can be rare 'cause it's not really a lot of how we. Take in news these days, right? Like mostly, but we can be
[00:46:30] Casey O'Roarty: intentional, like you said. Yeah. We can say like, Hey, there's state of the unions happening, or, wow, this thing happened. I heard, like you said, I heard there's a press conference.
[00:46:39] Let's watch it together. I'm really curious about it. You know, we can create, I think I want listeners to really hear that. If you're sitting inside, well, we don't do that. Well, you could, you can, you could, you can facilitate that and I think that that, yeah, I really, I appreciate that. And just this last piece, 'cause I, I was so again, appreciative of this being on your list in your newsletter was the suggestion to review how history has dark periods and how good always triumphs in the long run.
[00:47:12] And as somebody who's been working with families for decades. What gives you hope right now.
[00:47:18] Alyson Schaffer: So thank you. And I do, and I am hopeful and, and you young people keep me hopeful. I, I really, I really enjoy seeing the open-mindedness and the, yeah, the, the better perspective that, that young people have. Like, they blow me away all the time.
[00:47:34] But I guess it's a little bit like looking at like a, a stock market little graph. You know, where if you, if you just zoom in on the last 12 months, you might think things are going up or things are going down and you know, you think you should like, sell your stocks or sell your house or buy real estate, or I don't know what, and then you pull it back and you're like, yeah, but what about the last 300 years?
[00:47:56] You know? Yeah. And if you, if you can scale it and pull it back, what we know is that when there are these times in history. Where there's oppressive regimes, the, the period that follows it tends to be the biggest explosion of some of the values that you and I hold. Mm-hmm. And it, it's almost like there's a release of the oppression where it's kinda like.
[00:48:25] We will never let that problem happen again. We're gonna write new, write new laws and whatever, so that we never hurt women's, you know, bodies and, you know, yeah. Uh, we, we, we tend to progress. So we have these like little, like an inchworm. We kind of go back a little bit and then we have this big explosion and we go back and we have a big explosion and so.
[00:48:46] I have to kind of like pull back the lens far enough to say this is a dark time in our history, but this is one of those inchworms moving backwards. But I think the next thing is gonna be the best yet. And, and I, I, I'm just start tracking human history around that. You know, we don't solve problems with dueling and pistols anymore.
[00:49:07] I mean, there's certain things that are just like, done, done, done. You know. So we, we, I do still see the arc of improvement that way. And then the other thing, and I, I think you said this poignantly Casey in, in the last comment, which is about looking at the micro, which is, okay, well I can get really depressed looking at my phone and hearing what's happening in the world.
[00:49:26] But then when I actually say, wait, what's happening in my life? What's happening in my community? No, no, no, no. In my community, people are helping people, you know, I, I mean, like, I, I, I live in a, you know, really wonderful town that it really supports, you know, all people that really like, like I, you know, on the daily, on the regular people are holding doors open and being kind and making their way, and cooperating and acting the way that I think human beings should be on planet Earth.
[00:49:58] And so, you know, if I can kind of get enough gathering of that, of saying like, I'm watching human nature on, on the pretty regular. And for the most part, people are, are, are good and there's some terrible things that are happening around the world. But I'm not gonna extrapolate that to say that all humans are evil and all kingdom come is dire.
[00:50:19] And I, I'm, you know. Yeah, I, I have too many data points that say that is not what my reality is. And so I stay, I stay very in my community, I, I reduce my newsfeed. Um, you know, I stay ed, you can, you can listen to this stuff all day long, but the big stuff will make its way to you. So, I mean, I, I have a very big news diet.
[00:50:42] I get just the highlights and then to your point, and then I take action. And I have, one of the great things about my Adlerian community is. We have Arian through, uh, the International SSIS is our international organ. There's also a IIP, but we have a couple of international organizations and I have friends from all over the world.
[00:51:02] Mm-hmm. So I have friends in Iran. I have friends in Turkey that live through that earthquake like I have. It's, it's. Having friends around the world. I, I have friends from Venezuela. Yeah, same. So on the, the good, the, the good news is I'm so glad that I have global friendships. Uh, on the other hand, to your point, probably when I was in grade nine, grade 10, and I had no international travel, had no international friends, you know, it makes it more poignant.
[00:51:27] It makes it more real. But it also means that just those small things like. Just today, I just texted something saying, you know, we are with you. We are your ally. Mm-hmm. The world is watching, like that means a lot for them. Yeah. Because a lot of times what happens is something big happens and the world's all excited about it on the news cycle for one week, and then everyone disappears.
[00:51:46] And I'm like, we haven't forgotten. We are still here. We know we're still with you. Sending an email, like that's a small thing, but it's like a huge thing to that person, you know? Yeah,
[00:51:56] Casey O'Roarty: yeah. I love everything you just said and, and I, you know, looking for those data points, looking for the evidence of good.
[00:52:02] And really, and this is something I've said to my young adult kids, like, I'm not willing to be in the alternative mindset. I, I, I don't want to be in the mindset of defeat and dread. And hopelessness because that doesn't serve me in my day to day, and I don't think it's bypassing anything. I'm paying attention.
[00:52:19] I'm having conversations, but I am here to believe in and excited for. This explosion of growth and, and expansion and possibility that's got to come out of this dark, dark period of time in history. So, uh, so good. Allison, thank you so much for coming on and talking about this.
[00:52:41] Alyson Schaffer: Thank you. Really, really useful
[00:52:43] Casey O'Roarty: conversation.
[00:52:44] You're welcome. Where can people find you and your podcast and follow your work?
[00:52:50] Alyson Schaffer: Oh, thank you. Alright, so basically my website is like the clearinghouse for everywhere else that I am. So it's, it's, uh, allison schafer.com, spelled A-L-Y-S-O-N-S-C-H-A-F-E r.com. But what you'll find when you land there is it'll, it'll have links to my Instagram and my Facebook.
[00:53:08] I have a Facebook. Teens group. Um, I have my podcast there. You can submit questions on the podcast. I interview other people. We're gonna have you back for another interview. Yes, that's fine. Um, so, um, you know, my books are there, um, my webinars or anything that's like upcoming events are there. So that's kinda like the one stop shopping, that's the word to go.
[00:53:27] And then it'll spread you out to all the perfect tendrils of my life.
[00:53:31] Casey O'Roarty: Okay, well, we'll make sure that that link is in the show notes. And my final question in this context of, of everything we've talked about today. What does joyful courage mean to you?
[00:53:42] Alyson Schaffer: I think in the context of this conversation. Joyful courage really to me feels like, um, a parallel to what we think of as resilience.
[00:53:53] You know, we have to be courageous, but we need to do it with a certain, you know, like that attitude that you just said, we, we get to choose our attitude. Adler was a big thing. You can't change your life situation, but you always change your attitude about your life situation.
[00:54:07] Casey O'Roarty: And it amazing. It's amazing how that filters into the actual life situation too.
[00:54:12] Alyson Schaffer: Yeah. So, um, so I think that, I think being resilient is, you know, we're having a positive attitude about things, being able to be better and doing the part, the socially interested part of what can I do right now that would be helpful in, in, in whatever way, shape, or form that that is. Um, I think, I think that kind of speaks to what
[00:54:33] Casey O'Roarty: resilience is.
[00:54:35] Beautiful. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for spending time with me, Alison. This is amazing.
[00:54:39] Alyson Schaffer: You bet. Thank you.
[00:54:46] Casey O'Roarty: Thank you so much for listening. Thank you to my Sprout partners, Julietta and Alana. Thank you Danielle, for supporting with the show notes as well as Chris Mann and the team at Pod Shaper for all the support with getting the show out there and making it sound good as I mentioned. Sharing is caring. If you're willing to pass on this episode to others or take a few minutes to rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, it helps other parents find this useful content.
[00:55:14] Be sure to check out what we have going on for parents of kids of all ages and sign up for our newsletter to stay [email protected]. I see you doing all the things. I believe in you. See you next time.